₦airaland Forum

In their book, Enjoy Life Now and Forever, Jehovah's witnesses states that blood represents life, this is according to Lev 17:14. This is true. The book further states that according to Gen 9:4, God forbade the eating of blood. We should take note that the restriction is on eating blood.

In the NT, the same restriction continued, as the book says. Acts 15

28For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

The book now went further to expand on how this restriction affect blood transfusion. It says:

"What does it mean to abstain from blood? If a doctor told you to abstain from alcohol, you would not drink it. But would you eat foods that contained it or have alcohol injected into your veins? Obviously not. Likewise, God’s command to abstain from blood means that we should not drink blood or eat meat that has not been bled. Nor should we eat any food to which blood has been added.

What about the medical use of blood? Some procedures clearly violate God’s law. These include the transfusion of whole blood or any of its main components​—red cells, white cells, platelets, and plasma."


Here I feel is the area we need to reason out well. The bible clearly forbade the eating of blood, so we shouldn't eat it in any way as Christians. On that area I agree with the Watchtower. However, blood transfusion can't be compared to injecting alcohol into your system. Secondly, blood transfusion isn't eating blood. Let me explain.

If you eat blood, the process it passes is not the same as when you transfuse it. The blood when transfused becomes part of your body organs. Blood transfusion is like an organ transplant, which the witnesses now leave to conscience. That's not the same as eating the blood which serves a nutritional purpose. Using blood as part of nutrition is what the bible prohibits. Instead of banning blood transfusion, it would be better to leave the issue to personal decision since this is an area that we dont have a direct scriptural command.

Second point: Acts 15:29 says we should abstain from blood. The witnesses view this to mean total abstinence. But, do we have to see it that way?

Notice other things that that scripture says we should abstain from...

to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Take the issue of things sacrifices to idols as an instance. Does it mean total abstinence? 1cor 8:7,8 shows that one can eat what is sacrificed in an idol temple if it doesn't cause stumbling. So while the prohibition was on communal eating of things sacrifices to idols, it didn't mean that such meats can never even be eating even when it is sold in a market. The point I am making is this; do not over extend scriptural application beyond it's context, you could end up setting up rules God never intended. God forbade meat sacrifices to idols, but He didn't mean that on no occasion can you eat such meat.

In the same vein, the restriction is on eating blood, that's where the bible stopped, don't extend the restriction to blood organ transplant. God didn't have that in mind while given the law. It would be better to leave it to conscience matter.

There are other reasons why this view makes sense:


1. Taking blood when life is at stake isn't wrong:

1sam 14
33 So it was reported to Saul: “Look! The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating meat with the blood.” At this he said: “You have acted faithlessly. Roll a large stone to me immediately.”

It is clear that these soldiers ate blood. True it is still a sin, however, God didn't inflict the death penalty, why? The situation obviously is understandable, they were in dare need of food to save their lives because of Saul's restriction on food. If God was understanding and pardoned the people because the needed to stay alive, how much more someone who is in need of blood transfusion to save his life, I mean a transfusion we don't have a direct ban from the scriptures? Why would you have to loose your life for that? Is it sensible to loose a life just to keep a mere symbol of life? If a doctor told you to abstain from hard drugs, and as severe pain tried to kill you and that hard drugs is the only way you can save that life, would you think the doctor will restrict that drug from you? We all know that in some situations, a doctor can even recommend marijuana to a patient although it is banned.

Don't save the symbol of life, and then loose the life.

You are guiltless when death occurs in self defense: Exod 20;2-3

In this, we are still assuming that blood transfusion is scripturally prohibited, even though it is not. Some may say it is better to die and await resurrection than to break God's law. That is true in many cases, but since life is precious, God doesn't want you to loose it recklessly. We see this in the example of the soldiers. But we also see it in the book of Exod 20: 2-3a

"If a thief is found in the act of breaking in and he gets struck and dies, there is no bloodguilt for him. 3 But if it happens after sunrise, there is bloodguilt for him."

Now, God forbade murder, but what if someone comes to thief in your house at night, you don't know if he came to even kill someone, if you had to murder that criminal, God is saying you are free. Now this is murder, a serious sin in God's sight, but He makes exception here because he won't tolerate it when one just stays like a pole and have another kill him unnecessarily. Or this might even be one who dies as the house owner is trying to protect his property from the intruder. Whichever it is, what we know is that when one breaks in at night and gets kill there, the house owner can go free.

In other words, some murder was excused because probably, life is involved. Blood transfusion involves life which is very precious to God, do not think that God is happy for you to waste that life just to save a symbol. You're sinning by doing that. The person you're taking his blood will still be alive, so why bother?

Lastly, your leaders might still change this doctrine tomorrow after having incurred a blood guilt for many that have died for this doctrine. It is worthy of note that they had previously taught that taking vaccine and organ transplantation was a sin. Some died for this, but they later changed it. If you die for an unscriptural policy, you didn't die for God, you died for your leaders.

FreeIgboho:
See the kind of things you're saying behind my back. In front of me you'd pretend to be my friends. If I wasn't a devout Christian I'd say THUNDER fire the both of you!

When you were arguing in circles with Gabrielshow24 about freewill, and losing the argument to be honest, am I not the one that ended the argument by simply pointing out that everything boils down to the brain which you neither chose nor programmed and there's nothing you can use to override the brain except the brain itself, processes of which you don't control?

Can a 5-year-old do that??

Who indirectly convinced everyone here there's no such thing as freewill because decisions are always based on past things you neither chose nor control - people like gohf, tctrills, Dtruthspeaker, Everyday247, FxMasterz, Image123, Ruke1990, sonmvayina, MeetDx, Sand2022, who were all gong-ho about freewill before.
Who shut Boomark with facts when he tried to say the Bible never said God is omniscient?

Who wrote the brilliant OP that showed Jesus has to be God if you believe the Bible.

Can a 5-year-old do all that??

I'm still very much tempted to say thunder fire the both of you, but as a devout Christian...

I don't know why you quoted me. I didn't say there is no freewill if God foresees what one will do before he is created.

Boomark:
You don't need to reply all of them with a general statement. Just chose anyone you like and say it is false backed with scriptures.

Yes to the worship. I believe you know worship has many meanings like bowing or kneeling before someone.

In your view Jesus is a Deity since he receives worship. Would that be correct?

Boomark:
Yes that's what it is. Made a correction in your statement.

So when I am going to get my own answer of seeing Jesus in this Zechariah 3:2? I have been the one answering question of what you believe in. You should be the one showing me things unless you don't understand what you believe in.

Ok. I see things differently here. I see two persons in that Zech 3:2. It wouldn't be logical to call to oneself to rebuke someone. I don't see how that makes sense. But I am happy to know you see it that way.

I believe the unique Angel of the Lord is the one speaking to Satan.

Boomark:
One person is speaking to satan not to himself.

I still haven't seen your evidence of Jesus in the Zechariah 3:2 you asked me to post. You should be the one showing me.

So Yahweh said, Yahweh rebuke you Satan? Like the same Yahweh is saying Himself ( Yahweh) should rebuke Satan? Would that be your understanding?

Gabrielshow24:
He doesn't have an handle on what his problem statement should be! That's his conundrum. He didn't define relevant concept such as "God" and he makes the mistake by asserting that "God" and "God almighty" are different! 😂

In all, he has only made a redundant point because the bible, in identity already exemplifies this. It's self refuting!

Ok. JWs have that view. That the word God is a title. But that it doesn't mean the individual is worshipoed. I don't know Bookmarks perspective though.

TenQ:
It's the same misunderstanding
The same argument


They cannot fathom how YHWH can be Somewhere and Everywhere at the same time.
They cannot fathom how YHWH can be Unlimited and Limited at the same time.

This is their problem!

This is why if your ask them the Question :
if Jehovah is Omnipresent, you may be shocked with their answer .

I don't waste much time with them!

I am familiar with the position of JWs, I just don't know about bookmark.

TenQ:
Based on their wilful IGNORANCE, they created TWO Gods for themselves
1. The Almighty God
2. The Mighty God.

They then Demoted the Holy Spirit to a mere Influence or Power of God!

This sounds like the position of JWs, but it doesn't appear that bookmark is a JW. So I want to understand his perspective. So all the point he is making then is that Jesus is not Almighty, but he can be worshipped?

Boomark:
I want to use this opportunity to call for a bible challenge on Trinity. I want to prove to the whole world that trinity is a false doctrine from the antichrist and not the will of God. The challenge will actually expose those who have been believing a lie and are subtly opposing Christ. I call on trinitarians to nominate any person who you feel is capable.

This place will be used as the discussion platform. Apart from the contestants and referee, no post will be allowed in the main challenge thread until it is over and a winner emerge.

If no one turns up to challenge me, then it will be obvious that trinity doctrine is truly a false doctrine. By then, I will fly around with the name of Jehovah God like a bird with ten thousand wings. And you will also know the I am Boomark of God.

So if you feel you are capable and not scared, take up the challenge. You people are plenty so I believe you won't disappoint your belief. The challenge will start on Wednesday 30th July 2025, that is next week.

These are the guidelines which will be copied to the main challenge thread.


Bible Challenge Topic: The Father is One God over all Vs Trinity.

Participants:
Boomark [The Father is One God over all]

And

Name [Trinity- define it]

Duration: Till the last claim

Bible Versions:
Any version allowed. Each participant must state the version used when quoting scripture.

Challenge Rules:

Rule 1: The Bible Alone
Only the Bible will be used as authority. Each person must prove their claim with scripture. No assuming or borrowing anything from science, commentaries, traditions, creeds, etc.

Rule 2: Context Always
Verses must be explained in their immediate and full context. Never isolate a verse to prove a point.

Rule 3: Equal Turns
Each person gets the same number of responses per point/claim. Till any exhaust their claim.

Rule 4: Respect and Clarity
Use respectful language. Focus on proving truth, not mocking.

Rule 5: One Topic at a Time
The challenge or claim must be focused on proving or disproving the Trinity. Do not bring in unrelated topics (e.g., Sabbath, tithing, etc.).

Rule 6: ChatGPT for scoring
This will be used to determine claims and rebuttal that are in context and in line with the scripture. So no one will keep insisting on a claim or rebuttal that is out of point. No partialty.

Daily Challenge Format

Claim and rebuttal/support will be rotated in turn between Mr A and Mr B. And it must not exceed 24 hrs after it has been made, else, +10 point will be awarded to the opponent of the one who refused to respond.

Mr A will make his claim in favour or against trinity with one or more scriptures.

Mr B will either support or offer a rebuttal to his claim with scripture.

Note: Always remember the add, Do you agree? after each claim.

Make your presentation in this format:

Claim:

Key verses:

Or

Rebuttal:

Key verses:


SCORING

The admin or marker we choose will add our claim and rebuttal into this scoring prompt and paste into ChatGPT after each round of your Bible challenge:


Topic: The Father is one God over all or Trinity?

CLAIM:
[Paste your full message here]


REBUTTAL:
[Paste their full message here]

✅ Instructions:
Please analyze both responses and score this round based on:

1. Who used scripture more clearly and accurately?

2. Did either person use scripture out of context?

3. Did either side prove or avoid the point?

4. Who followed the challenge rules more closely?

5. Which response was closer to the truth based on the Bible alone?

Then give:

A brief summary

A winner for this round (if clear)


AWARDING POINTS

Successful claim = 10 points

Successful rebuttal = 10 points

Any out of point claim = - 5 points, + 5 to opponent

Any out of point rebuttal = - 5 points, + 5 to opponent

Claim without a counter or rebuttal will be regarded as successful after 24 hours.

If one of the participants has exhausted his claim, the one who still have claims will continue to make claims while the opponent has the right to rebuttal or support and points will be awarded accordingly.


Round 1, 2, 3, etc.

Boomark score:

Mr Trinity score:

Let's make clear the will of God.

I would have engaged you dear, but I don't have that time. But I can discuss this subject with you gradually on the other thread. Debate does take time.

Boomark:
THE FATHER IS ONE AND THE ONLY TRUE GOD. TRINITY IS A FALSE DOCTRINE

Trinity doctrine is formed based on capital letter G and small letter g in the word God/god. It is hanging at the mercy of wrong and right interpreters. It is not based on what God said about himself, or what Christ said about God and himself, or on what the apostles said and know about God and Christ Jesus. Let us see what Christ said and confirmed by himself. Know that Jesus Christ is a God but not the God Almighty and not his equal. Only the antichrist will reject the words of Jesus Christ.

ONE GOD, HE IS THE FATHER

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NIrV
[5] There may be so-called gods either in heaven or on earth. In fact, there are many “gods” and many “lords.” [6] BUT FOR US THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. HE IS THE FATHER. All things came from him, and we live for him. AND THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD. HE IS JESUS CHRIST. All things came because of him, and we live because of him.

Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV
[4] Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:


NKJV
Act 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [Him] go.

Hebrews 1:1-2 HCSB
[1] Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. [2] In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him.

Jesus Christ (the word was God, John 1:1) is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who raised him (Jesus) from the dead. He (Jesus) is not the God who spoke through the prophets to their fathers and now speaks to us through Jesus Christ. He (Jesus) is not the God who was able to save him (Jesus) from death.This is the God they know as God Almighty, Exodus 6:3. He alone bears the name JEHOVAH. LORD was used to replace JEHOVAH, go and verify.

Psalm 83:18 KJV
[18] That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, Art the Most High over all the earth.

THE ONLY TRUE GOD

1 Timothy 6:16 NIrV
[16] God is the only one who can’t die. He lives in light that no one can get close to. No one has seen him. No one can see him. Honor and power belong to him forever. Amen.

John 17:3 NIrV
[3] And what is eternal life? It is knowing you, The Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This is the only true God. He alone has immortality and cannot die. Nobody has seen or can see him. Jesus was seen by many people. He died, was buried, and his God raised him up. See also 1 John 5:20.

JESUS HAS A GOD. HIS GOD IS THE FATHER.

We all, including Jesus Christ have one God and that God is the Father. From Ephesians 1:1-3&17, 1 Peter 1:3, and all the first chapters of the epistles, you will see them thanking, "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ," Let see what Jesus said by himself. His sayings are true.

John 20:17 NIrV
[17] Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me. I have not yet ascended to the Father. Instead, go to those who believe in me. Tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

Jesus clearly told us that the Father is his God and our God. If you still doubt and reject his words because he was still on earth, even though he has died and was resurrected, let us go to revelation when he is in heaven.

3) Revelation 3:12 NIrV
[12] Here is what I will do for anyone who has victory over sin. I will make that person a pillar in the temple of my God. They will never leave it again. I will write the name of my God on them. I will write the name of the city of my God on them. This is the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God. I will also write my new name on them.

Who will argue or reject what Christ said by himself. Jesus in heaven, clearly telling us about his God who created and own everything and made him an heir of everything. If Jesus is God Almighty, who then is his God? We know what it means for someone to have a God he serve. Nobody can claim or say they are equal to their God or god.

John 14:28 NIrV
[28] “You heard me say, ‘I am going away. And I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad I am going to the Father. The Father is greater than I am.

Jesus said it himself, that his Father is great than him. He never told us that he is equal to God Almighty his God. Those who believe that are on their own.

JESUS IS A SERVANT OF GOD

Matthew 12:15-18 HCSB
[15] When Jesus became aware of this, He withdrew from there. Huge crowds followed Him, and He healed them all. [16] He warned them not to make Him known, [17] so that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: [18] Here is My Servant whom I have chosen, My beloved in whom My soul delights; I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations...


Isaiah 42:1-4 HCSB
[1] “This is My Servant; I strengthen Him, this is My Chosen One; I delight in Him. I have put My Spirit on Him; He will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not cry out or shout or make His voice heard in the streets. [3] He will not break a bruised reed, and He will not put out a smoldering wick; He will faithfully bring justice. [4] He will not grow weak or be discouraged until He has established justice on earth. The islands will wait for His instruction.”

Jesus in Matthew 12:15-21 confirmed what was written in Isaiah 42:1-4, that he is a servant of God Almighty. Who will disagree or reject what Jesus confirmed? A servant is not equal or greater than his master.

Acts 4:27, 30 HCSB
[27] “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, [30] while You stretch out Your hand for healing, signs, and wonders to be performed through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

The apostles made powerful prayer to God Almighty in the name of his holy servant. Jesus reconciled us back to God so we can go to God his Father through him. He didn't tell us to throw God away. These scriptures showa that he is God's servant: Act 3:13, 26, Isaiah 53:1-12, Isaiah 49:5-6 was confirmed in Acts 13:46-47.

Jesus has the fear of God whom he serves in him, but God Almighty fears no one. The spirit of God was the one helping him. See Zechariah 3:8, Isaiah 11:1-3, Acts 13:22-23

Acts 2:36 NLT
[36] “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”

If you read from verse 14, you will see that God made him every thing he is.

Jesus is subject to God and will hand over everything to God in the end. Read this carefully.

1 Corinthians 15:24, 27-28 HCSB
[24] Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power.
[27] For God has put everything under His feet. But when it says “everything” is put under Him, it is obvious that He who puts everything under Him is the exception. [28] And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

JESUS IS A PROPHET

Deuteronomy 18:15, 18 HCSB
[15] “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. [18] I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

See also Acts 3:22-23, 7:37.

Jesus Christ is a prophet serving God Almighty. He is a mediator between God and man.

Jesus confirmed that he says things exactly as God commands him. As the prophecy in Deuteronomy puts it, "God will command him on what to say." He will not say things by his own authority or will.

John 12:49-50 NLT
[49] I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it. [50] And I know his commands lead to eternal life; so I say whatever the Father tells me to say.”

See John 7:16, 8:28, 14:10.

God Almighty is not a prophet but prophets are his servants who say what they hear from him. All the prophecies in Revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God to say and show what he received from God.

JESUS IS A GREAT HIGH PRIEST OF GOD FOREVER

What the high priests on earth does for God is what God has chosen and appointed Christ to do for him in heaven forever. Hebrew 5:4,5,10, 7:28. He is a priest forever, saving and interceding for those who come to God through him, Hebrew 7:24-25.

Hebrew 4:14-15, 5:1-10, 7:1-28, 9:11-14.

GOD WITH GOD. JOHN 1:1, 18.

John 1:1 Said, Jesus was God and he was with God. In the same John 1:18, it says that no one has ever seen God. This is to show that there are people in heaven who are called Gods, but they all have God, the Father, who no one has seen, as their God. 1 Timothy 6:16 didn't tell us that people have seen God and that he is Jesus Christ, who died and was resurrected. God Almighty (the Father) cannot die.

Philippians 2:6 HCSB
[6] who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.

The form of the sons of the Most High in Psalm 82:6 is not the same as the form of the gods of Babylon in Isaiah 46 and not the same with those who are called gods in heaven. That they were all called gods doesn't mean they are one, equal, and the same.

Jesus is a God base on the authority given to him by the Father. As Moses was a God/god to Pharaoh. Even God is himself was called gods in 1 Samuel 4:6-8. An idol in Acts 17:23 was referred to as the unknown God, KJV, NIV, LSB, AMP, etc (few versions used god). We are looking at who is who here. Also see this heading in your bible in Isaiah 46 "Gods of Babylon" (not gods). Jesus told us the Father is the only true God. He never said he himself is the only true God. This is why those who depend on capital letter 'G' have fallen away from the truth.

KING OF KINGS

God as King of kings: 1 Tim 6:15, Dan 2:47

Jesus as King of kings: Rev 17:14, Rev 19:16.

Nebuchadnezzar as King of kings: Dan 2:37. God made Nebuchadnezzar king of kings.

These three persons are not trinity or equal just because they bear king of kings. Nebuchadnezzar being in the form of king of kings does not make him equal to God. Titles does not determine who is who.

ALPHA AND OMEGA

It was mentioned for God in Revelation 1:8, and 21:6. For Jesus in Revelation 22:13.

This title does not make Jesus equal to his God and it does not mean that Jesus Christ is the same person as God the Father. Just as Nebuchadnezzar is not the person called Jesus Christ. And there is no where it says that this is reserved for God Almighty alone. We have saviours in heaven and on earth but God almighty is the true saviour who sends all saviours to man.

Revelation 1:1 GNT
[1] This book is the record of the events that Jesus Christ revealed. God gave him this revelation in order to show to his servants what must happen very soon. Christ made these things known to his servant John by sending his angel to him,

Revelation came from God Almighty and he gave it to Jesus to show people. The God who said in the beginning, "let us make man..." is still the same God that designed the revelation of the end which was given to Jesus. God is the brain behind everything.

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE

I and my Father are one. One what if I may ask? The bible made this clear but those who are believing a lie have continued to use this to misinterpret the word of God.

John 17:22 GNT
[22] I gave them the same glory you gave me, so that they may be one, just as you and I are one:

Just as you and I are one, let them be one. It is like saying that husband and wife became one. They are not equal because the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God, 1 Corinthians 11:3.

Trinity doctrine is rooted in gross misinterpretation of the scripture and falsehood to turn people away from the only true God.

Matthew 7:21-23 HCSB
[21] “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord! ’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? ’ [23] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

From Matthew 7:21-23, you will see that Christ the holy servant of God is not interested in what you claim or think you are doing for him to please him. The only thing that pleases him is the will of God. Do the will of God the Father whom he serves else you are rejecting him and the Father who sent and commanded him to say exactly what he commands.

THE ANTICHRIST

Anyone who rejects and do not believe words from Jesus Christ have rejected him. Those who rejects him have rejected God because those words came from God and they have made God a liar, John 12:49-50. Those who rejected him are antichrist, 2 John 1:7,9, 1 John 5:10.

I am BOOMARK, the slayer of false doctrines with double edged sword 🗡️

I wanted to reply to all these, but the first point you made was that Jesus is God, but not God Almighty. I need to understand your position well. What do you mean by the word "God"? How many Gods di we have? Jesus being God, do you think he should be worshipped?

Is the point of difference only the claim that Jesus is not the Almighty? Only his Father is Almighty?

sonmvayina:
that verse is confusing, but i read it in context, i think there is only one lord most high. which is the one doing the rebuking. the one who made the first statement has to be the angel or joshua or possibly zachariah.

Perhaps the unique Angel of the Lord. So it is logical to say two persons bear the one title Yahweh?

Boomark:
No. One person.

From the verse quoted, only one person is speaking to himself?

Boomark:
It is Yahweh. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So two persons bear the one name. You agree?

Boomark:
Zechariah 3:2 LSB
[2] And Yahweh said to Satan, “Yahweh rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand delivered from the fire?”

Zechariah 3:2 NIV

[2] The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

Chose any one you like.

Who would you think the first Yahweh referred to?

DeepSight:
Isnt it obvious then that you didnt make those decisions?
Its absurd to say that the decisions of a free creature were known before it existed.

Deepsight you made those decisions, the difference is that a higher power foreknew those decisions before you existed.

What you will say is that the maker is the primary cause of your decisions, since he created you in a way you make them.

Boomark:
Please go to my new topic and learn. I don't why you people enjoy lying.

There is no where Jesus or any angel was called Jehovah In Zechariah 3:2.

Quote the verse here

At Acts 2:17, the phrase "poured out" is used, and some understand this to mean that the Spirit is a thing, that is why he is poured out.

It is true that humanly speaking, you dont speak of persons that way, but the nature of Spirits is not the same with humans. One human cannot be inside many humans or be operative inside more than one individual. Spirits, especially the divine nature seems complex.

The Spirit being poured out is the same as saying he was operative in the specific people mentioned. 1corinthians 12 describes how that works.

"But the manifestation of the spirit is given to each one for a beneficial purpose. 8 For to one is given speech of wisdom through the spirit, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one spirit, 10 to yet another operations of powerful works, to another prophesying, to another discernment of inspired expressions, to another different tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11 But all these operations are performed by the very same spirit, distributing to each one respectively just as it wills."

Notice there is one Spirit, yet he manifests in different persons at the same time. Verse 11 shows that one Spirit is the one doing different things in different persons. The verse shows that the Spirit distributes as "it wills". So the Spirit has a will and based on that will, He distributes. The word " It" Is used for grammatical reason. Spirit is neuter, so the pronoun. We know that an inanimate thing doesnt have a will. This must be a person.

We see this grammatical implication on Matt 12 as well.

"When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through waterless places in search of a resting-place and finds none. 44 Then it says, ‘I will go back to my house from which I moved,’ and on arriving, it finds the house unoccupied but swept clean and adorned. "

Here the spirit is referred to with "it" Although unclean spirits are persons. This was just to align with greek grammar, nothing more.

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Boomark:
I am coming back soon to destroy the false doctrine of trinity. Heads will roll (biko not human heads ), mouths will be silenced. And as usual, undisputable.

God said his name is Jehovah, him alone bears that name. And people knew him by his name. Psalm 83:18. Now you want to force it on his nature. You even said it wasn't used for the Father alone in the scripture. I wonder who is teaching you people these blunders and fatal lies. Which scripture? I am tired of you people. But I won't be tired. I am coming back.

Jesus, called Angel of the Lord in the OT still bear that name Jehovah. (See Zech 3:2)

God called Abraham his friend even as high as he is. God also said to mere mortal "come let us reason together." How much more to people who are with him. Maybe you will also say human beings are equal to God since he made us like himself. That's fourth people in the fournity[/quite]

You didn't understand the point. Read it some more.

[quote]Haven't you seen seen an angel speaking as if he is God, Judges 2:1-5. You will also say this angel is God. The MAN who fought with Jacob nko? This is what happens when we don't know God very well.

Yes, that Angel is evidently Jesus. The way that Angel operate shows he is not just a created Angel, but one with Divine nature. He is worshiped and he is referred to as God and Yahweh. No Angel is worshiped in the bible.

FxMasterz:
They said all these and still refused to apply it fully to.the parables of Jesus. If hell is not a true place of torment, hasn't it rendered this statement of theirs useless?

That's the point.

FxMasterz:
You have made very important points but you see, these people love their lies.

They will never examine the important questions you asked especially about Jesus validating something that is not true through His parables. Most times, in all Jesus' parables, he uses real places and realistic events mixed fictional characters to drive home His points. The events He describes are always realistic, and the places He mentions always exist. He might just place fictional people in the story but every other thing about the story will will be real. That's the manner of Jesus' parables. If hell does not exist, or torments in hell is not a real event that happens, Jesus will never use them in a parable.

That's the point. See what there book, Benefit from Theocratic Ministry School book says,

"Although not all examples have to be actual occurrences, they should reflect true-life attitudes or situations. Thus, when teaching how repentant sinners ought to be viewed, Jesus illustrated his point by telling about the rejoicing of a man who found his lost sheep. (Luke 15:1-7) In reply to a man who was failing to get the full import of what the Law meant by the command to love one’s neighbor, Jesus related a story about a Samaritan who helped an injured man after a priest and a Levite failed to do so. (Luke 10:30-37) If you learn to be a keen observer of people’s attitudes and actions, you can make effective use of this teaching device."

Kobojunkie:
The better point here is that Parables are fictional stories, and should not be taken at face value. Rather, the focus should instead be on the message intended by the teller of the story.

That should be the main thing, the message. However, it doesn't mean the element mentioned are to be ignored. For eg, imagine if someone were to say that there is no road leading from Jerusalem to Jericho. Now while the parable of the good Samaritan is not told to mention route, that element in that parable can be referenced to prove that there is in fact a road leading from Jerusalem to Jericho. It is obvious that although the lesson is the primary thing, but parables draw from realistic circumstances.

Kobojunkieee:
1. I am sorry, what? 😏
Everything you described here is what amounts to fiction. The use of metaphors, personifications, and other figures of speech does not generally directly or indirectly impact the genre of a story.

2. If a story cannot be taken literally— it's not based on actual events—then the story is fictional.

3. This is what it means to say a story is fictional, though.

You're right. Fiction will match both scenarios. I felt the description should have prevented a misunderstanding. The difference is between Realistic Fiction and Fantasy Fiction.

My point is that parables are realistic fictions, as opposed to fantasy fiction that is not known to happen in reality.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Kobojunkie:
All it seems you did here was successfully confuse yourself and not much else.

Thanks for pointing that out, perhaps you didn't get the point. The first part you quoted shows that parables are constructed from what happens, what the audience knows can happen in real life. It is not from fiction. For eg, if you say:

once upon a time, one table went to a space to purchase garri..... That is fiction. It doesn't happen in real life.

But if you say, once upon a time, a man travelled to Lagos to buy a phone, but was robbed by area boys....

Now this is an event that CAN happen in real life. Someone can travel to Lagos, he can buy a phone, he can also be robbed by area boys.
but the event is not expected to be taken literally as if it ACTUALLY happened, but that story was constructed from what the audience in nigeria knows CAN happen. It is not fiction like the earlier example. But you're not expected to view the story as literal, that is, as if it actually happened. It was a made up story told to teach a lesson.

when I said that parables are not to be taken literally in the later part you quoted, what I mean is that you don't take it as if the story ACTUALLY happened. It was just told to teach a lesson, not to be taken as a real life story, but it was borrowed from real life events. In fact some aspect of parables do sometimes get exaggerated to emphasize a point.

rottennaija:
I get your point and they are valid. However, I have since to realize that truth or lack of in a events in themselves don't matter, even if the truth came from Jehovah or Jesus himself. Whatever Jw leaders thinks the truth is, is what the truth is. And it's what the following will believe. Period.

I repeat, a Jehovah or Jesus can stand on earth today, says this is A. The jw leaders aka Governing body will say, it's B. The majority of the following will take B. Nothing else matters.

That's true for the most part, although the PIMO experience within the group shows that even if all say they accept what the leadership says, some silent voices may object but they may not do so publicly.

Anyway, my op is about my own studies in the scriptures, each one of us will make their own decision. But I feel moved to make it public to help sincere ones out there with points they themselves may need to consider before making their own decision. Their decision may be different from mine. No problem, but at least I shared mine.

fuckJones:
If in heaven we will be happy forever, why didn't God create us directly in heaven?

In Psalms 115:16 says “As for the heavens, they belong to God, but the earth he has given to the sons of man.” So God created us to live on the earth.
In Psalms 37:10–1+29 says “the wicked will be gone but the righteous will live on the earth forever in an abundance of peace.” That was God’s original purpose, for man to live forever in the garden of eden. God’s purpose hasn’t changed. That’s why he gave his son to die for us. John 3:16 says “For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son for those who believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Everlasting life right here on earth. In Ecclesiastes 1:4 says “A generation is going, and a generation is coming, but the earth remains forever.”

What is the hype of heaven?

When thinking of what heaven is like may conjure some thoughts about clouds, harps, streets of gold, a nice house. All while worshiping one supreme being.

If I were completely honest, I too have thought of things I’d rather do than spend an eternity in Heaven. What about traveling around the globe visiting destination spots and the wonders of this world? This sound like an option that I personally would prefer.

After all, humanity was created to rule over this earth and everything in it.

The Earth | To harvest its contents, to rule and subdue it.
the land
the sky
the sea
every creature
that flies in the air
swims in the sea
walks/crawls/creeps on the earth
Everything that has breath
Every plant that grows
So why Heaven? Why is the end-game to take humanity out of Earth and place humanity in God’s space?

why do you want to go to heaven?

As Spirits, the Saints will be in heaven.

“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” — 2 Corinthians 5:8

But during the earthly resurrection, they will return to their bodies to inhabit this earth again. Rev 20

4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

tctrills:
For no fault of theirs, our ancestors did not hear about Christ or Christianity would they be punished for that or would they be given a second chance?

It is written
Timothy 2.3-4
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Also
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

No one preached to our ancestors so is it the will of God that they also be saved and come to a knowledge of Him?

Romans 2 will apply:

For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare."

What God is basically saying with the Laws He has given is Love your neighbour as yourself. There has been people who died and saw themselves in heaven, some were atheists. There judgment was based on how they loved people and their families.

There is something about the rich man and Lazarus story I didn't consider while a PIMI JW.

I had long believed that the story is a parable, so everything there had to be explained away as pointing to something else other than real life event. This is because of several scriptures including Eccl 9:5-10; Romans 6;23

However, aren't parables built from events familiar to once audience? Think about it, all the parables jesus told was not what his audience never knew about, it wasn't from fiction. It is true that some elements may be exaggerated or added to make a point, but events in a parable are not entirely from fiction. The good Samaritan story, the Wise Steward, the prodigal son all were stories his listeners could relate to. I mean the man who was robbed while journeying from Jerusalem to Jericho. That was a location people knew was dangerous. But the story Jesus told didn't actually happen. But the location exists, that actual event can also happen. It's not fiction.

There is a reason to think that Jesus was conveying something from the story/parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Assuming it is a parable, what reality did the parable draw from? We can quickly say, it was fabricated from unrealistic event. It is a fiction. But think about this, Jesus audience was the Pharisees, and the Pharisees believed in the immortality of the Soul, they believe also in after death torment of the wicked. Then Jesus began to tell this story of torment. The big question is:

If this torment after death was a false doctrine, why is Jesus making a parable from that? Will that act not in fact be validating a false belief? I was just thinking, let's say a JWs is trying to teach another that a wicked act is wrong, then he begins to tell a story that so and so did this wicked thing to Mr B, then after so and so died, he found himself in hell with torment, how would that JWs think his audience will view that parable, that hell is false? Never! he is in fact validating that doctrine by drawing from it to teach a lesson.

Jesus never said nor condemned torment after death, rather he even used imagery that conveys that doctrine.

We need to also consider that there is no way to allegorize all that Jesus said there. All attempt to convey the meaning in literal sense fails.

The interpretation assigned to this parable by JW leadership doesn't match the account. I will talk about their interpretation and why it doesn't fit next time.

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FreeIgboho:
That's the mistake you people make. God has no definition in human terms.
See if you can wrap your mind around this:
There are over 2 trillion galaxies in our universe. And possibly unlimited number of universes. Now, shrink our galaxy to the size of the earth and our earth will be smaller than a grain of salt! Add to that, there are likely multiple dimensions. That's the God you're trying to define!

I agree, it is impossible for us to define His nature. Trinity is the best effort at doing that, but it is not perfect.

Ruke1991:
Those deeper life leaders problem cannot be solved by this teaching. It's somehow a mixture of hatred, unforgiveness, jealously and protectionism that makes them discipline, frustrate, blackmail and chase away their young ones who practice speaking in tongues, who are gifted in the prophetic or are are aggressively involved in leading others to engage in prayer. Those deeper life pastors have what bible calls cloak of maliciousness. What does it mean?

They envy you but will not acknowledge it is envy. They are secretly afraid that if you set up a church, they could lose followers. But they never try to understand your mission first.

Rather they look at legalistic rules within the church. They look at the church traditions to find what they can use to punish you and kill you. The best weapon is so called disciplinary actions. You could be suspended for up to one or two years in a row and while you are under suspension rumours about you being occultic, rebellious will be going round. The members in their simplistic and sanctimonious ways will start avoiding you for fear of the high handedness of their pastor not descending on them.

Deeperlife today is almost like a cult with fearful followers of high handed pastors who are not obedient to scriptures despite that they preach it. Those pastors are more about maintaining their control over the people than anything else. Or else, how do you explain their actions? Where in every location of deeper life, those who speak in tongues while leading prayer during holy ghost impartation services are considered occultic or rebels and have to serve disciplinary actions. Deeperlife is like that everywhere but the more religious members try to deny the coercion and erroneous application of disciplinary action in settling personal scores by deeper life leaders. Pastor Kumuyi, you have tried. But at this stage nothing you can do to change those pastors, not even your teachings except you discipline them anyhow the way they discipline people. That's the language they understand

My brother, just attend church, worship God and go home. Don't pin yourselves to any particular church or leader. You belong to Christ not GO or anything pastor. It is when you pin yourselves to a particular church, want to occupy a position there that you end up being frustrated. If you feel the need to preach, open a TikTok account and preach there.

You don't belong to Kumuyi, Pastor A or B, Adeboye etc, you belong to Christ. All they are, are stewards. They too belong to Christ.

MaxInDHouse:
Understanding of scriptures isn't easy for imperfect humans that's why Jesus instructed his apostles that he chose to take the lead never to establish any form of teaching singlehandedly they must be at least two in number so that by the time they pray for Jesus to come and chairman the meeting he will guide them by means of God's Holy Spirit! Matthew 18:20; John 14:26-27
So a man can't form a teaching because based on his own understanding alone it will backfire.

You sound different here. Something is changing in you.

God1000:
#PopeLeo #CatholicChurch #BBCAfrica

Catholic is stinkingly rich, but they contribute to charity. A fine example.

Love800:
I would love to be a Jehovah witness, because of their gentle life. Relaxed service and programs(not those stressful and loud types), and serenity of their church yard. Infact, its this serenity of their abode that blows my mind!

But the thing that worries me, is their misled teachings. How can you say that we are not going to die, but remain on earth and unite with our love ones and live happily together forever!

They try to maintain their place of worship. Their friendly worship style without loud speakers obviously is charming. JW didn't say you won't die, and uniting with your loved ones should be a good thing. If your interest is going to heaven, that's definitely a hope the saints will attain, but we will still come back to earth. The church teach that.

I think if you enjoy sweet environment, the Church of Later day saints trumps the JWs. The LDS outshines the JWs in there pretty modest Church environment. When a core JW, I used to appreciate their Church environment. It's sweet and charming. Woow.