Steep:
All accepted Jeremiah as a true prophet, it does not matter whether it is before his death or after his death.

You should be arguing with someone else then. My earlier point you started to attack has this the main point. The words of Jeremiah was not viewed as inspired by the religious leaders of his day. But now, it is. The same is true of God's prophets today. The point is that rejection of prophets when they are alive is common. It didn't start today. If this is not important, then leave my comments alone. That is one of the proof of my comment you were responding to.

what were the issues? The only issue they had initially was that they were not sure of its author.

Go and.make.research my friend.

an inspired statement does not mean it should be part of scripture.
Scriptures were written by prophets and apostles of christ.

See your comment that made me reply that:

The only words that church should be mindful of, is that of the prophets and apostles of Jesus.

That was the comment oga. Stop giving me more work. Then you now said something in your comment below that contradict this your comment above, see below.

It was the old testament prophets that wrote scriptures, in the new testament the scripture are written by the apostles not prophets. The old testament has already be fulfilled nothing can be added.

Keep scrolling

they considered the old testament authoritative, Jesus quoted the book of Isaiah in the temple in the midst of the jews.

This comment is not for me

that is lie! canonization of scriptures is not a matter of individual opinion but on collective acceptance. Few people might disagree but the whole group agree on it. The Jewish nation collectively agreed on the old testament books we have today and the church collectively agreed on the new testament.



actually christ gave the church that power.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Secondly, the 12 apostles which had authority to set doctrine for the entirely of the Christian church, if anybody would not accept it then he is not part of the body of christ.



Nobody has the authority to do so, Luke and mark were with apostles and they were eye witnesses of the events that took place, for their books to be acceptable by the early Church it means the apostles approved of it.

In your comment above, you said:

"in the new testament the scripture are written by the apostles."

Now you're saying that it was written by both the apostles and those who were with the apostles.

You're giving me more work oga.

the apostles didn't set any new testament canon. They just wrote their letters, it was still others who loved God that assembled these books and declare them canon. The time it was accepted as canon was not the time God started viewing them as inspired. As they spoke the word from God, it was inspired from then.

I think you should research this subject well, and stop creating work for me abeg

MaxInDHouse:


So there's no need arguing over difference in beliefs since we all know the basic as doing what is good and abstaining from what is evil all religionists agreed on this as BASICS!

In differences of opinion, one opinion is correct while one is wrong. Both can't be right. Arguing to prove to another might not be wrong in itself, but we should not go to the extent of saying so and so will not make the kingdom because of that belief. Only God knows why so and so doesn't accept that truth.

Eg Paul taught that the law is out of the way, while the brothers in Jerusalem were observing the law and teaching others to observe it. Differences of opinion. One was right, one was wrong, but all are in the Lord. If you sincerely don't know you're wrong, it is very likely that God will overlook it. Unless if you're deliberately lying to yourself. Why say so?

Job is the example. He was wrong, and he defended his wrong conclusions. God knew he didnt do so deliberately. So, if God sees that if he corrects you, you will accept it, then he can accept you even though He sees you're in error. He knows we all can't all get it right. I mean, we're not Him.

Michael547:

So are you saying that God is using all groups of churches today with their contradictory teachings?

Contradictory doctrine in itself is not a major issue. God knows we can't all agree on everything. Something's are basic.

JW have the view that there is only one group God can use. They are of the view that God cannot use two groups or organization at a time.

They teach that any who want to worship God acceptably must join them, since they see themselves as that one true religion. There decision hangs on some scriptures, one of which is Eph 4:4,5

"One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Some witnesses will point to the fact that this place mentions " one" for each of the items, one body, one faith, one baptism, one lord etc. That is true, but are we to understand this to mean that there has to be only one Church or one christian institution? No, any more than saying that there must be one baptism, nor one Lord nor even one body. There are more than one type of baptism, Jesus is not the only Lord, we have fleshly bodies, spiritual bodies etc.

One body refers to the body of Christ. In that body are different gifts, ministries, and different personalities.

The JWs feel that faith in that Eph 4 refers to one organization. The faith there is a form of worship based on faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. It doesn't mean one organization. Any true christian organization based on ransom sacrifice of Jesus is in that one faith, one body. The head or the Governing Authority in this body is Christ.

But has God not used only one channel all through the centuries? When God used the Israelites, did He use another channel?

We should first, ask, what does the JW mean by channel? In their mind, what they mean is one organization ruled by few elders in the Headquarters. They will point to people God used like the Israelites. They see them as the only ones God used at the time before the christian congregation came on board. Any who wanted to worship Jehovah, as they say, will go through the Israelites.

This view is understandable since God called the Israelites His special people. He gave them the laws, priesthood, leaders. In fact they were God's house.

However, that never meant that worship of God was only acceptable only if it went through Israel. Why?

The worship of God has been through a set up altar. This method of worship is open for any who wish to worship God. This is equally true even when the God appointed priests were available.

Cain and Abel individually made altars where they sacrificed to the same God. Both Noah and Abraham had theirs as well. As family heads, they were like Priests to their own families.

Melchizedek was the first communal priest the bible mentioned. He was a priest and a king of Salem. Obviously, there must have been people serving God in Salem where he officiated. But that didn't mean that Abraham can no longer serve God through the altar if he wants to.

What about the time of the Israelites? Did all that stop? No. The Governing Body will have you think so. But many seem to forget that job and the community he lived in worshiped God. That community was contemporaneous to the Israelites. How do we know that the community worshiped God?

Job 31 verses 26-28 Job stated that if he has ever worshiped the sun or moon, that such error would be punished by the judges.

This shows that the community was God fearing. Yet the Israelites were also worshiping the SAME God where they were.

It is true that Israel's way of worshiping the same God was quite different. They had the tabernacle, priestly class, festive seasons etc, but that didn't make other worship unacceptable. The Uz community can't replicate the system of worship in Israel without God approving it. Even Melchizedek mode of operation in the Salem community won't be the same in Israel. We also know that Naaman would also have had his own little way in which he worshiped God after Elijah gave him a go ahead order. (2kings 5:19) Even Elijah himself has an altar he worshiped God in Israel (1kings 19:10) while those in Judah did their's at the temple in Jerusalem.

Coming to the first century. While Jesus had his disciples who follow his directions, John had his with slight differences in their practices. In fact after the wrongly believed Governing body in Jerusalem was established, Apolos who knew nothing about the so called Governing body was aglowed with the spirit as he preached. Meaning that he and others who worshiped God have His Spirit even though they know nothing about the "Giverning body" in jerusalem. (To see that there were no Governing Body in Jerusalem, see https://www.nairaland.com/7926922/ministry-jws-part-5-governing)

The Ethiopian Eunuch who traveled back to his land would also have slightly different way he would be worshiping his God there as a Christian. We wouldn't assume he would follow exactly what is at 1cor 14.

Jehovah's witnesses would say there is just one faith. Yes, one faith based on the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. That's the meaning, but what about one body? Why aren't they mentioning that? We know that this one body refers to Anointed Christians, not the other sheep of JWs. There is actually one body of anointed Christians, but the witnesses don't Believe that. What about one hope? Which is heavenly hope. The witnesses say no, there is two hopes. I plead that you witnesses start studying the bible for yourselves. This worship monopoly you're living in is not healthy.

True christians doesn't see themselves as an organization with one Governing body. They see themselves as a body of Christ with Christ as the head of that Body. That is the unifying factor, Christ, not Governing body.

Steep:
The Jewish nation as a whole considered the books of the prophets and the law as inspired, and even Jesus himself considered them as scriptures. The jews might not immediately believe that Jeemiah was a prophet but subsequently they knew he was sent by God and all that he wrote were inspired when they came to pass

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

You should know that scriptures have internal validation, meaning one Scripture often validate another scripture and there is a flow and internal consistency, canonization of scriptures right from inception has rules.

The part I bolded is the main point. Not ALL accepted Jeremiah as a true prophet when he was alive. All the other things you wrote there is not the issue at stake. I didn't object to any of that.

There are no Christian who don't consider the book of Peter and revelation as scripture today, in the time past all of the church consider what we have today as scripture so it's not new.

You seem to lack knowledge of the argument that accompanied the bible's canonization. You need to make research about this. It is well known fact that some books in the bible were not all accepted as inspired. Even Martin Luther Zwingli, Calvin all had issues with the book of Revelation.

That statement are inspired does not mean it scripture, a scripture is an inspired writing by holy men.

Ok, I wonder how that helps your point. If you believe that a statement can be inspired but didn't make it into the bible, you're closer to my point. Well done.

what new revelation? Apostle Peter already seal it up for the church.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour

The only words that church should be mindful of, is that of the prophets and apostles of Jesus.

Well Jesus still has prophets today.

Daniel himself recognized the jerimaiah books as scripture, the angel of God sent to Daniel also acknowledged jerimiah writings as scripture, above all Jesus christ acknowledged Jeremiah along with all the other prophets including Moses as scripture.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Jesus read Moses and the prophets to the jews, meaning the jews themselves acknowledged them as scriptures.

I don't even know how all these address my post. Did I argue any of that?

The old testament was already settled at the time of Jesus, in fact there was little or no controversy as to what scriptures are at the time of Jesus.

Ok, at the time of Jesus. So you agree that prior to that time, there were some issues right?

But how about the saducees and the Samaritans? Which books did they consider authoritative?

Apocryphals were never recognized by christ and the apostles.
Meanwhile for the new testament, the apostle laid the foundations.

Scripture is very clear, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles (12 apsotles) and prophets with Jesus being the chef corner stone, no other person has the authority to write a scripture.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Again I don't know who you have in mind to write the above.

The point is, do you believe that some in Judaism of Jesus day considered these apocryphals as scripture? Do you think that the Jewish system considered Jesus, Peter, Paul etc as an inspired prophets of God?

If no, then we are saying the same thing here. What you consider to be inspired today was not believed in at the time they were written. The persons we know to be God's prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah etc were not all agreed to be God's prophets the time they lived. Some even doubted Moses. That has always been the case. You can't expect a general acceptance. I will even say that majority never believed Christ when he was alive. It's the same today.

But the major point is that the acceptance and collection of these books as inspired word of God is not through a voice from heaven. God didn't tell anyone to collect this or that book. It was all through discussions and argument of which book should be viewed as authoritative or canonical. As for the inspiration of the words, it already had inspiration from the time God uttered those words to His servants, whether it is penned down or not.

So if God truly speaks to someone today, that word is inspired, it is God breathed, whether people accept it or not.

The writings of the 12 apostles are not the only inspired word of God. Luke and Mark, were not apostles nor predictive prophets. But there writings were considered inspired.

Steep:
You are wrong in saying that the bible is just a collection of books by God lovers. Everything about the Bible was inspired by God both the writings and the collection where all inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It's true, the bible is an inspired book as the bible you quoted confirms. However, as for it's collection, I don't quite see how it is inspired. I will agree that God may have influenced one or two things as the collection is ongoing, but saying it is an inspired collection will leave us with many questions.

First, no where did the bible say that the collection work of inspired writing is inspired. The canon of the OT is likely decided on by the Great Synagogue as tradition have it. The bible didn't tell us that.

The Septuagint written by probably 72 Jews had many other writings in it called the Apocryphals. So what they considered inspired obviously is not what we consider inspired today esp the Protestants.

Even in Jesus day, the Saduccees didn't see the prophets as inspired. Eg, they wouldn't consider Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc as inspired.

In the NT, there were many books under inspiration debate. At some point, the book of Peter, Revelation etc were not viewed as inspired by some christians. Im fact, it is possible to see those who do not view certain NT books as inspired as we do. There are many things Jesus said that were not part of the bible. But all those things he said were all inspired. So the bible you have is not a collection of all inspired words on earth. There are other NT writings that some christians view as inspired but which the Protestants reject.

So the bible you have, that is, the 66 books, were just a collection of what is perceived by many to be inspired. God didn't speak from heaven to mention which book is inspired and which is not. Servants of God who love His word are the ones who made the collections. There are many many inspired statements that didn't make the cut.

Though God speaks today but anything he say always inline with the already writing down scripture hence scripture serves as the basis to judge spirits if they are of God.

You're correct. The exception is if there is new revelation from God.

Who told you Jeremiah was not accepted by the religious community.
The jews accepted Jeremiah but rejected christ, the Jewish nation were the ones God used to preserve the old testament while the Christian church were the ones that God used to preserve the new testament, even Jesus christ acknowledge and subjected himself under the authority of the scripture. You will notice that God uses community of the people of God in preserving his word rather than individuals and all the people God used to write the Bible were well known and accepted by the whole of God's community.
For the old testament Moses was well known and a leader of God's nation, same goes with Joshua, David, Solomon, sons of Asaph, the prophets. As for the new testament same thing people who walked with christ during his earthly ministry or were a knowledge by those who walked with Jesus on earth.
No, pastor, bishop, general overseer etc has such authority that those who wrote the scripture had.

People lie all the time in the name of God and hence any revelation must be brought under scriptural examination.

Lol. God's prophets were often rejected by people who lived during there time.

Example. Jeremiah himself recorded;

Jer 20:
Now Pashʹhur the son of Imʹmer, the priest, who was also the leading commissioner in the house of Jehovah, was listening when Jeremiah prophesied these things. 2 Then Pashʹhur struck Jeremiah the prophet and put him in the stocks that were at the Upper Gate of Benjamin, which was in the house of Jehovah"

These man was a leading commissioner. But he didn't believe Jeremiah to be a prophet from God. You can also read Jeremiah chapter 26 and see what happened there.

People of God often reject his prophets when they say a message that is unpopular, a message that sounds different in their ears.

It was not only Jesus that the Jewish community rejected, they also rejected John the Baptist, Paul, Peter etc. so don't see it as strange when today people reject God's prophets, even those who fear God. That has been the way it is. It is often many years, I mean several years do people start to recognize that so and so was actually speaking from God. And in most cases, but the prophet and his generation had long died. But that is very dangerous because God wouldn't overlook those who reject His prophets. They are His mouthpiece.

OLAADEGBU:


SaharaReporters

Ajoke claimed that she never felt fatherly affection from the late pastor and that her father compelled her to be a disciple to ruin her life.

Why hasn't the Govt stepped in to investigate this allegations? We need to know what to believe. Investigative report is a good start, but the church denied it. So Govt should conduct their own investigations.

Last355:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wCucLkXOnU?si=bgr-NaDIj5GbPdSL

It is true that the lady accused of giving a fake testimony by Dunamis actually graduated from NOUN.

Here is her name (Anyim Vera) on the graduation list: 2262. It's worthy to note that the wrongly accused lady is also a serving police officer

Stage fright can lead to saying the wrong thing or speaking in front of an audience, like saying BSc in Law.

While Members of Dunamis church are currently trooping to her Facebook page to apologise other netizen have advised her to terminate her membership of the church.

See pictures below

If this is true, she deserves an apology from the altar for such a public shame. It's possible her wrong answers was because of stage fright.

alBHAGDADI:



Saying he heard the voice of God loud and clear is one big lie. No man hears the voice of God today unlike in Bible times. The only time we hear Gods voice is when we read the Bible which is the word of God. Everything God has to say to mankind has been recorded in the Bible. So, anyone claiming to get extra words is a false prophet.

Do you know what it means to say you heard the voice of God today? It means you have extra words from God which you want to add to the Bible. But God has laid a curse on such people and they won't be in the book of life. Hell fire awaits them because God specifically warned that no man should add to his word nor subtract from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you

This scripture doesn't mean that God can't speak to people today. This command is specifically saying that one can't add to the Mosaic law God gave Moses.

God has been and is still speaking to people today.

After Moses' day, God still spoke to many more prophets He raised like Jeremiah.

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So, friend, when next a pastor says something like "God spoke to me last night", kindly ask the pastor to show you what God said and that he should place it verbatim with God's word in the Bible. If what he claims to have heard from God doesn't match God's word in the Bible verbatim, then he's lying. Flee from him because he's peddling extra words which never came from God.

Why do false prophets claim to hear extra words from God? It makes them appear as someone that has a relationship with God that is special than what others have. It is also because people love fables. Such people hate the truth, which is why they pack themselves in mega churches to listen to fables like "I drove a car on empty fuel tank".

The book of revelation you quoted is specifically talking about that revelation or vision God gave to John. It doesn't mean God stopped speaking to people after that time. The last written book is not even revelation but 3John

Not every word God spoke made it to the bible canon. What we now call bible is what group of God lovers assembled for all who feared God. Their picking book so and so doesn't mean the words became God's after their selection. It had always been God's, only that God's human worshipers put them all together. They however, didn't gather all God had ever said to humans on earth. Jesus said many many other words that didn't appear in the bible record. Weren't those Gods word as well?

You need to remember that in most cases, God's true prophets are honoured long time after they die. When they're alive, many don't seem to believe them. Jeremiah and Jesus didn't get a thumbs up from the religious communities they lived in. We need to be careful that we're not becoming the unbelievers of our time.

If some claims to hear from God. It's ok, but what does his work promote? Does it promote what God hates? Does he promote a moral depraved lifestyle? We need to be properly guided lest we become fighters against God.

I don't know much about Adeboye, but I have not seen anything that will make me doubt him. And the biblical proves you bring to make your point doesn't match.

MaxInDHouse:


What type of WARS has God ever taken side?

Is that a question? Don't you read your bible?

Questionnaires:


Many of Them are against their teachings and Doctrines.

Very Many.

Even The Deeper Lifers etc.

If you do a count, you will definitely see many against their teachings. But mind you , many does not mean MOST.

Most christians care less about them.

On the other hand, JWs as a religion is against ALL in Christendom, and are openly against MOST of their teachings.

Check MOST books written by Pastors and General Overseers, you will see less mention of Jehovah's witnesses,but check the publications of JWs, and see all mention of Christendom, that alone will convince you who hate who.

MaxInDHouse:

So what type of WARS do you know that God doesn't support?

What I mean is, God doesn't take a side in all the wars that has ever been fought in all human history. There will always be some wars that was fought where God didn't take a side or is not involved at all.

MaxInDHouse:


So when people fight wars in ancient Israel was God supporting both sides?

No. God would logically support one side. However the fact that He even support a side, does it not mean He is not against all wars?

Through Jesus' teachings believers have become sons of God {John 1:11-12} therefore since Israelites fought wars in ancient times the sons of God bought with the blood of His Son can also engage in wars against one another to kill their fellow believers shey?

Remember that God's people must take permission from Him before going to wars which means they must pray to Him so which side was He, both sides?

People don't fight wars just to kill each other. War is a sign of disagreement that went sore. In the disagreement even among worshipers of God, God has one side He will agree with. It is also possible that in some wars, He won't support any side at all.

Remember David fought his son Absalom and his Israelite Army. They were not worshipers of Baal. They were all worshipers of God. But they fought. God supported David's army. So in a war, even among servants of God, God can have a side to support.

Why aren't you seeing my biblical evidence?

All the sides that worship God will always pray to Him. That is not the issue. God can still support one side, but he can't audibly tell each side that He will support them. No. He will tell the side the supports that He is with them. But not in every case would worshipers of God hear His go ahead order before fighting. The bible didn't say David did hear such before fighting Absalom.

But today, it is hard to see nation exclusively run by God like the time of Israel. So what happens is a christian might be in the army like Cornelius was. His fighting would be at the order of the king or President. If he obeys the king or President, God would hold the President responsible for the soldiers actions.

My position is that joining the army should be a personal decision. I see no scripture for the insistence on noncombatant christian. If you don't like it, then don't join the army. But don't say that the bible is against it. It is not.

Aemmyjah:



We are following the examples of Jesus Christ and the first century Christians. If you like, go and fight and kill unasef... What we are doing is something the world cannot do. There's no reference that Jesus fought or his disciples...
A whole epistle of nonsense is what you have written
Even in christendom, they are always criticized for their support in wars in the spirit of nationalism, ethnicity too and politics. We are on part of the world and we don't do such nonsense. If you want to carry gun and fight, you are free...

You're free to do what you want. Personally, I don't like wars nor fights. But to say that the word of God condemns it is to call God a bad God. God told his nation to fight, God himself fought from heaven when he rained hails.

Jesus was among the unseen fighters for Israel during their wars as JWs teach.

The soldiers that approached John the Baptist were not told to resign from military.

Cornelius was an army officer when he received the holy spirit and baptism.

Jesus with the anointed will fight during Armageddon.

Jesus and his angels fought Satan during 1914 as you teach. God is called Jehovah of ARMIES.

Does God support all wars, no. But you can't say He doesn't support war at all. The position of JWs not to fight war is understandable, but don't say that's what the bible says. It will be a fat lie.

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus commanded his disciples not to hate one another {John 13:34} to the point where they will have to raise weapons against one another because Satan is the one behind killings among people who professed the same faith {John 8:44} he also prayed that they should have the same line of thought {John 17:22 compared to 1 Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 4:3} he also warned them not to go about with religious titles {Matthew 23:10} and they should not be part of Satan's world {John 17:14-16} because in Satan's world hatred and killings is what will characterize them during the end time! Revelations 6:3-4

So i totally disagree with you it's either you present one religious group having the same belief globally as Jesus taught and prayed for his disciples to be or you don't have the answer. Over 41,000 different religions with contracting teachings and conflicting doctrines can't be said to be practicing what one person taught that is broad daylight scam!

You're free to have a different opinion. But don't be quick to forget that the Jews, who were God's people fought wars. As at the time they were fighting wars, God's law still stated that they should love their neighbors as themselves. In fact Jews even fought fellow Jews at times in war. While I personally don't like wars, our wish can't be God's command.

The issue isn't just what God allowed on earth for one to protect his territory as JW will say. In the book of Daniel, and Angel says he was going to fight a demonic angel that resisted him as he was coming to deliver message to Daniel. Cornelius was an army officer who received the holy spirit even when he was in the military. The praetorian guards who held Paul still accepted Christ. No scriptural record said they all resigned. Here John's responds to those in military service:

John 3
14 Also, those in military service were asking him: “What should we do?” And he said to them: “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with your provisions.”

Secondly, Jehovah is called "Jehovah of Armies".

Jesus according to JW is a leader of an angelic army in heaven. In fact according to JWs, Jesus fought the Devil and his armies in 1914.

During Armageddon, according to JWs, Both Jesus and the Jehovah's witnesses who are anointed will fight the war of Armageddon.

Here again is a clear indication that the GB aren't thorough in their research. Personally, I would advise that the issue be left to personal decision. This is not area to be dogmatic.

2. Jesus prayed for unity.

Yes even at 1cor 1:10, having the same line of thought is advised. But this a reasonable advise, but that doesn't mean that if there is ever differences of opinion, God doesn't use them. Because of imperfection differences of opinion can't be avoided. What needs to be done however, is that they should be unified under one head, Christ. Why can we not say that differences of opinion doesnt mean that God doesn't use the so called scattered doctrines in Christendom?

1. In Judaism that Jesus was part and parcel of, there were differences of opinions and doctrines. Pharisees, Sadducees and the Zealots have different theological understanding. Jesus and his disciples differ from these 3. John the Baptist and his disciples have a slightly different opinions. Eg John and his disciples fast, Jesus and his disciples doesn't fast, at a time, John disciples kept baptizing under John's baptism for many years. However, all these groups worship in the same temple, sang the same songs, etc John disciples and that of Jesus were accepted. One man even performed miracles using Jesus name. That man would have a different opinion as well since he doesn't gather with Jesus.

After pentecost, Jesus fellowers in Jerusalem follower the law, while Paul's church outside Jerusalem were instructed not to follow the law. All were accepted by God. I have an article on this. Go read it.

Even in that Corinthian Cong you quoted, some say they belong to Paul, some to Apollo's, some to Peter, some to Christ. While unity is essential, God doesn't mean uniformity or a cultlike organization as JW do have. Christ also says he came to cause a division. So he expected that there would be a level of different opinions. But we should all worship together regardless.

MaxInDHouse:


So which religion or church is practicing what Jesus taught today?

Many churches practice what Jesus taught today.

Preaching:

Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Catholics, JWs, Mormons, Waldenses etc preach.

Mormons, JWs and Waldenses preach door to door. Both Jesus and his apostles mostly preached publicly. They do stand and preach to passersby, groups of people, families etc. It is a matter of debate if by house to house it means door to door. Another point not clear is what really is a house to house preaching. Knocking door to door? While that is not wrong in itself, as preaching method that effectively reach people is what Jesus will be concerned about, not style. But what we can't neglect is the fact that house to house preaching then may just be what we can call today a pastoral visit or a return visit. Eg, Jesus preached publicly, after that, he went as a visitor to Zacheus house. There he preached. After he did go to another person's house. These could be the house to house preaching the bible have in mind. Paul did get an invitation to people's house after preaching publicly as well. So the major preaching method then was public preaching, after, they do get invited to houses to preach as well. This doesn't mean that there are not few ocassional they may go to houses, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. The culture followed by JWs today was not the case then. Even if there such few cases as may be gleaned from Matt 10, it surely is rare. They mostly engage in public witnessing. Churches do this form of witnessing more by preaching with a mic and speaker in markets, streets, crusades etc. Standing on a road with a Mobile Cart isn't the biblical pattern of public witnessing.

But style is little an issue. The point is to reach the unsaved with the message of repentance.

Preaching Topic:
The major preaching message should be repentance and faith in Jesus. Of course God's kingdom needs to be advertised, but the main focus is repentance from dead works and faith in Jesus.

Jesus didn't preach the kingdom by telling people about it. He often says "repent for the the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near". The point is on repentance. Why? So as to enter the kingdom, so as not to be destroyed by the kingdom. Of course there are other things one can preach about, but without repentance and faith is Jesus, there is problem. While it is not bad to continue an interest shown by conducting a bible study that in many cases, the study last for years for just one individual. It is not a sin, but that is not a biblical pattern. It's just a move to indoctrinate people to become JWs. What should be done?

Preach the message of repentance to the UNSAVED, invite him to a church. It is there in the church that he will be taught "all the things that Jesus has commanded", not in his house. And you don't need to cover a book for a year or more to get baptized. If he accepts Jesus as his personal lord and savior and has repented of his sins, get him baptized bro and continue to teach him as he comes to church. Simple! That is a pattern we can see in the scriptures.

Here the church is ahead.


Love:

All denominations love themselves, even the 'tax collector's and sinners' love themselves.

Love for neighbor:

All denominations show some love for neighbors, but churches show far more love for neighbors than JWs, Mormons, Scientology, Amish community. Why? These operate as control groups. They have the "We vs Them" mentality. So they operate more within there circles than outside.

JWs don't go for war. This I feel is a plus to some extent, That is me as a person. but I won't do a comparison here as joining the military should be a personal decision. Jehovah and Jesus still fights war, the saints will fight war in Armageddon. Let's say for me, I don't like the thought of people fighting.

The churches are far more loving. They engage in humanitarian work for communities, less privileged, widows, orphans. Have hospitals, schools etc that impact on all even those not their members. JWs on the other hands have no program for even their own widows and orphans even when this is a form of worship, let alone widows of other religion.

JWs have as plus giving out publications free of charge, even bibles. They are less money centric than churches in that they don't force their members to bring money by stipulating penalty for not doing so. Of course, there may be a hidden reason for this like the Jimmy Swaggart case. But that is nonetheless a plus.

Use of Bible:

Many churches use and rely on the bible for their doctrines. But they don't engage in much indoctrination and brainwashing as JWs and other control groups do. JWs are smart when it comes to getting what they want using the bible. But the truth is, bible understanding is not their gift at all.

As a plus, the JWs carry their members along so well in order to indoctrinate them. One of the ways to get these into your psyche is through:

1. question and answer method.
These makes the congregant take the study materials home, do and home study, mark the answers before coming to meetings. This is an effective method of sending a teaching into your brain, esp if you comment in your own words. Before you comment in your own words, they teaching must have sunk in, you can then explain it in your own words. Powerful tool.

2. Preaching.
You learn well when you teach someone else what you have learned. This method esp the bible study session helps them get the teaching into your head. Perhaps that's why they demand that all must have a bible study even when there isn't any scriptural precedence.

3. Becoming Your Sole Spot:
They make videos on science, home economy, family life, business etc, so that you don't have to get any information elsewhere except from them. That is another trapping tool. They want all of you for themselves.

Evidence of the divine:.

JWs score zero on this one. No vision, angelic visitation, healing, speaking in tongues etc. This is a very important evidence of God using a group. If God uses a group, He will surely contact them or show supernatural evidence of such. JWs have none.

Worship style:

The churches are more closer to the type of worship described in the bible. Read through 1cor 14 and see how early christians had their worship. You will notice a place for tongues, prophecy, enterpreters etc. JWs only feature songs and prayer. It's as if 1cor 14 does not exist.

If you're looking for which church, find the one whose spiritual leader have evidence of divine appointment. Then obey all that the leader tells you to do? No. That is what JW GB will tell you. Your ultimate leader is Jesus. But treat him with respect as God's appointed person. Some of these anointed men even operate a non denominational churches, others don't. S. L. Osborn was truly anointed. Kumuyi is another man I am investigating.

I still have a whole lot. But let me stop here.

MaxInDHouse:
There are many religions and in fact religion is as old as mankind on planet earth but with all the nations in ancient times being in one religion/form of worship or another everyone is saying "God is one"
Are you of the opinion that religions are like different roads leading to the same destination or there is a particular religion that God approves?
What should we expect from the religion that's approved by God?

I am Maximus one of Jehovah's Witnesses!

The true religion is the one sanctioned by God or His agent.

God formed a means of worship during the time of the Israelites when He chose them as His special people. This however, does not mean that others elsewhere can't chose to serve God. Job and the community he lived in served God in Uz while the Jews were serving the same God in Egypt and also in Mount Sinai and later in Canaan. I would write an article on this later.

Later however, Jesus showed that what the Father is looking out for is those that will serve Him in spirit and truth. That being the case, religion is secondary to the worship of God. What is essential is worshiping him by means of his son Jesus. Faith in Jesus is the key, not the name of your church.

Currently the church is living in a period Jesus described as the Weed and the Wheat period. (Matt 13) Jesus says that both will grow TOGETHER until the harvest. JW teach that this period has passed and that they are the storehouse where the wheat is gathered. In a later article, I will show what point they are missing out in there conclusions. We are living in a period that the weed and the wheat grow together. During the harvest, when the son of man will come towards the end of the world, he will do the separating of the wheat and the weed, then he will burn up the weed. This hasn't happened yet. So if you're true to God and served Him faithfully, He is seeing you. When that time reach, He will separate you for salvation. If you're not serving in spirit and truth, you will be punished.

Does that mean that you just follow any denomination that profess faith in Christ? No. God has his ordained Stewards, what JWs call faithful and discreet slave. Today, this slave is properly a class of GOs who God divinely/supernaturally contacted for a Ministry, not the 9 men in Warwick. If Jehovah didn't contact you nor divinely ordain you for a ministry and your ministry is not ordained by one who is God's divinely ordained servant, you are operating a human organization. Your organization have no approval from God. However, while that is condemnable, it is still good and best to let God have the final say on those issues. But it is dangerous to form a group that God didn't divinely approve, more especially when the group says that they are the ONLY ones God is using. This is very dangerous because they will put you against the true servants whom God has divinely ordained, unless of course, you don't follow the group leaders unscriptural directions, but approve and obey God's divinely ordained servants.

The recent changes on the treatment of disfellowshiped persons among JWs is no longer news. They have softened the approach and treatment of disfellowshiped persons. I want to appreciate this new change for it is good. In my earlier series on shunning, I did show why strict shunning as done by JWs is not biblical. It is rather unloving. From my research, I feel that each religious Leader(s) have the responsibility to apply discipline to it's congregant. The bible allows the Leaders to decide when to disfellowship a member in their midst. There is no way we can pindown one rule for this matter scripturally. But as for strict shunning, that is not biblical. If you care to know more about my view of shunning among JWs, see https://www.nairaland.com/7951638/ministry-jws-part-6-shunning

In the Governing Body update #2 2024, there new policy was announced. I have some observations to make.

1. Why Exclude Apostates from loving encouragement?

During the update Mark Sanderson stated that they now have a new understanding on 2 Tim 2:24,25. After reading the study Note comment on that verse, Mark said "this could include those who disregard scriptural counsel and get involved in serious wrongdoing." However, the study Note says:

"Paul uses a Greek word that in this context refers to people who resist Christian teachings or who place themselves in opposition to them. Paul may have had in mind, among others, those in the congregation in Ephesus who had a negative attitude toward following Scriptural counsel or heeding admonition from brothers taking the lead."

The study Note shows that these are apostates from JWs definition. They resist/oppose christian teachings.

Few verses above, Paul had just spoken of Hymenaeus and Philetus. You will notice that these two were handed over to Satan, it is likely that they are still in the congregation. Perhaps that is why Paul said in verse 20 that in a large house, there are different vessels, one good and one for a use lacking honor. So, Paul could have these two and those they deceived who are still in the congregation in mind when he stated what is in 2tim 2:24,25. Even if one maintains that Hymenaeus and Philetus can't be among since they have been handed over to Satan, those they subverted their faith, could be the example of those Paul says are not favourably disposed. The point is, those not favorably disposed are opposers to the christian teaching. Vincent commentary says about this:

"The meaning is, those who oppose the servant of the Lord; Who carry on the ἀντιθέσεις oppositions (1 Timothy 6:20); equals gainsayers (ἀντιλέγοντες Titus 1:9). Paul's word is ἀντίκεισθαι to oppose: see 1 Corinthians 16:9; Galatians 5:17; Philippians 1:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:4."

This is not just one who disregard a scriptural counsel and fail into sin, this is one who do not agree to some christian teaching and who oppose those christian teachings. So when Mark Sanderson says the new arrangement does not include " apostates and those who voluntarily promote wrong conduct", he is directly going against the context of 2Tim 2:24,25. Those two groups that the new policy isolated are those 2tim 2:24,25 says needs to be spoken to with mildness. It should be noted that what JWs call apostates is what other theologians call heretics. Many of them want to be in the congregation but they do not agree with some teachings of the GB.

Secondly, Mark Sanderson says the Governing body was trying to see how they will imitate Jehovah's mercy toward wrongdoers. He stated that His mercies was available for those who even show no sign of repentance.

That is a good move Governing Body. We should try to imitate Jehovah. But is it not shocking that while trying to imitate Jehovah, you limit the imitation to few 'wrongdoers'?

In the update, the example of how Jehovah was merciful to the Israelites was mentioned. But, are you saying that the Governing Body doesn't know that the major problem of the Israelites was APOSTASY? What was the major sin of both Judah and Israel? Was it not that many many kings dabbled into Apostasy?

This is the reason I feel that some changes done by the GB is not out of a new understanding of scripture, they rather decide on what to change, then go to find a scripture to support it. In other not to make it sound as if that is what they did, they will just tell the brothers, 'after prayerful study, we saw one or two scripture that indicates we need to make adjustment in our view of so and so'. It doesn't seem true that the Governing Body, after a careful scrutiny of the scriptures and input from their research team will omit this fact that Jehovah showed mercy to apostates. Coming to think of it, do they want us to believe that both then and their research team didn't know the context of 2john 9-11 for decades now?

I propose two theory for this: changes occur to JW theology either because, the GB and their team of researchers are not thorough meticulous bible students or they just chose what to change whatever they want and then walk backwards to find scripture to support it. The latter is evidently true.

In the update, the case of Jezebel of Rev 2:20 was mentioned as an example of mercy from Jesus. Let's read:

20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols."

From the bold faced, does Jezebel not fit the description "apostates and those who voluntarily promote wrong conduct"? The answer is obvious, but what the GB learned from Jehovah is that Jehovah's mercy does not include apostates. This decision is not based on the bible.

Then comes 2john 9-11. This is now understood to apply only to apostates. The update pointed out that the case of 1cor 5:11-13 is different from this one. But I wonder why they didn't follow the result of their own research to the full. If the restriction to the wrongdoers is only in "association" and not "eating with them", that is, not socialize, why then didn't they say you can greet and talk to them briefly whether inside or outside the kingdom hall? Obviously, they didn't intend to follow the scriptures, they just have a policy decision already made but just want to give it a scriptural basis. If tomorrow they receive pressure from courts, or their branch committees to add one or two policy, they will do it, and then look for another scripture they will claim they now understand in a new way. I am not against a church making policy for their members, they always have that right, they are the leaders, but don't keep making it sound as if the decision is because of a bible study you did.

In summary, I appreciate the softening of the way disfellowshiped ones are treated because no matter how little, it is something. It is also true that the GB doesn't tolerate any opinion apart from theirs. And this is reflected in the new update. My advise is to start following the scripture in your decision-making. That is what your sheep would appreciate more.

My 2 cent.

This topic is a follow up from this one: https://www.nairaland.com/8037438/ministry-jehovahs-witnesses-part-11

According to JWs the creation at Rom 8:19-22 apply to Jehovah's witnesses with earthly hope. We read the verses:

"For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."

The belief is that during the thousand year reign of Christ and his 144,000, the earthly hopers will gradually attain perfection. The glorious freedom of the children of God is viewed as perfection. And that the earthly hopers will attain this after the thousand year reign.

Since those the witnesses view as earthly hopers walk by the spirit, are spirit minded, these verses are not referring to them.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that the other sheep start to be gathered around the 1930's. That shows that they do not belong to the creation Paul stated here. Why?

Notice what ROM 8:22
22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."

It says until NOW. by saying " now", it means that the creation Paul has in mind were in existence at the time he was writing. So this is definitely not a group from the 20th century.

It is true that all, including the sons of God were once subjected to enslavement to sin, but as the true christians have accepted Christ, they are not seen as part of that creation under sin. So Paul's use of creation must refer to those that have not accepted Christ. Some among them will enjoy from the rulership of God's sons.

Do we have a clue of whom they are?

See this scriptures:

Gen 18:18
Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by means of him." Compare Gen 22:18; 26:4

From here we see two groups, Sons of God a.k.a sons of Abraham and the nations that will benefit from them.

After Satan is bound in abyss, see what the bible says:

Rev 20:3
And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

Here we see that " Nations" will survive to be ruled by God's sons. Confirming that this is so, notice that after Satan's release those he tempted are called nations from four corners of the earth. (Rev 20;7)

Some from among these nations will definitely repent and follow Jesus, and eventually become part of God's sons.

So you as a JWs should be among those that belong to Christ and will rule with Jesus. Meaning you're not among that creation.

Courz:


When I first saw the predictions, I only saw them as that only based on personal opinions. But now that some of them have manifested into reality, I strongly believe that those predictions came from Bethelites in the ExJW Reddit forum. They are the ones leaking these changes but are trying to carefully hide their identities so that they can't be traced by phrasing it as Predictions.

There is also something else I noticed in that forum. There are some posts people make there implying questions that sound like this: What is It that you want changed in the organisation? or What will make you go back to the organisation? Those posts are very suspicious and I strongly believe they are from Watchtower Spies trying to fish for information to gather to the Governing body. If not so, why are some of the suggestions manifesting into changes? Sisters wearing trousers was just a joke in that forum but Watchtower picked It and implemented it.

As for this habit of The Governing body committing blunders, if you have read this book Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, Ex Governing body member, you will understand why they do it. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society didn't start out as a Religion and it is still not a Religion. Charles Taze Russell made that very clear in his letter to Watchtower Shareholders. It is a Business Corporation trying to act like a Religion. When they were renamed as Jehovah's Witnesses, Rutherford made it clear that they are not a Religion but a Corporation. He said Religion is a Snare and a Racket. So, Gaining Truth by the help of the Holy Spirit once and for all isn't their Goal. They have admitted that they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit is not with them at all which is now manifested by numerous errors in doctrine. It is just like an Armed robber pretending to be a Pastor. Because he is greedy and his main goal is Money, he won't execute his Pastoral work well. His weaknesses and true intentions will show.

Ray Franz said when the Governing body gather to meet, they do nothing like Reading the Bible. They are only concerned about disfellowhipping people ( Look how far they have come with that) or if anyone broke any rule. They don't even know how to do research and don't know a lot of Bible verses. He said so. They have a separate team for that. So, their Bible knowledge will be low. That's why they keep committing blunders and don't mind changing from one error to another. They also don't mind making blunders because they have already formed a doctrine called New Light to cover them. Therefore, they can make as many blunders as they want since they already have an excuse for them. So, the interest to improve doctrinally is not there at all. What you are seeing with the Governing body is proof of what happens to someone when he or she is not inspired by the Holy Spirit and have no intention of being a Religion.

Wow, some of what you said here is an eye opener seriously. That is if they are true. I will research some of them when I have time. I am usually interested in bible research. But I need to confirm some aspect of what you said, the corporation aspect. That it is a business corporation not religious. Lol. Seriously?

On Sunday, 24th March, 2024, Jehovah's witnesses world over will be remembering the death of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will do this after sundown in all the kingdom halls all over the world. This is a commendable observance that we all should be happy with. At Luke 22:19, Jesus instructed that we should keep doing this in remembrance of him.

How often this ocassion should be done is still a subject of controversy. The JWs decided to do their's yearly since it is an anniversary. They have a point in chosing Nissan 14, and in doing it annually. However the church has undergone controversies over this issue that has resulted in a different date. Well, the good news is that they still celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal. It should also be noted that this year's Nissan 14 didn't fall on 24th of March as JW invitation seem to suggest.

But the major issue is on who pertake of the emblem. This aspect is even more important than the dates and how often it is celebrated. Why? Jesus said:

“... Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me." (John 6:53-57)

The bold-faced is the scary aspect. The emblem being circulated during the memorial represents Jesus flesh and blood. Jesus was plain that eating of them will help one gain everlasting life. This is not an issue one should joke with. If one deliberately ignores pertaking of the emblem, he is risking his eternal future unless circumstances prevents him from eating. In that case, it won't be deliberate.

JWs Governing body is not thorough and meticulous in scrutinizing the scriptures, that is why they haven't seen the danger of their doctrine. You can imagine that after many years of reading 1cor 5:11-13, and 2john 9-11, it is now they understand the context of these scriptures. That is just one example.

They teach that those who pertake of the emblem are only the anointed with the heavenly hope. Heavenly hope is for christians who have faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. That is the major focus of the new testament. If you want to be convinced that not only 144,000 will go to heaven, please read these threads: (https://www.nairaland.com/8033074/ministry-jws-part-10-great; https://www.nairaland.com/7532433/144000.html)

How does one know he is anointed?

In a 2020 article entitled "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit" it is stated that God's spirit makes it absolutely clear to them that they are joint heirs with Christ. As such, a heavenly class. According to them, you will have an inner conviction that you belong.

However, that is not what Paul is talking about. The context is not discussing earthly inheritance versus heavenly inheritance. It is rather discussing fleshly or cannal humans versus spirit led christians. Check the context. You don't need to wait for many decades for the GB to start reading this text from context. If you don't belong to the spirit led persons Paul spoke about in that chapter, you're a fleshly minded individual. You're not a true christian.

See verses 4 and 5:

"so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit."

Verse 9 says:

9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him."

So this chapter is not talking about earthly versus heavenly, but fleshly minded people versus spirit led true christians. If ROM 8:15,16 does not apply to you, you don't belong to Christ.

In addition to what I wrote under my article about the Great Crowd, notice another point.

God also called the Great Crowd sons.

Rev 7:17- God will guide the Great crowd to springs of waters of life. Now notice what Rev 21:6,7 says:

And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son."

The inheritance spoken of must include the ones mentioned at Rev 21:3,4. And that scripture is applied by JWs to the earthly class. But they fail to read down to verse 7, to see that these inheritance must be for the anointed ones when Jerusalem, the city, has come down. One should also note that verse 7 says ANYONE conquering, not only 144,000.

You can make your own emblem and eat at home if you feel that the brothers might start viewing you as special when in reality all of them should eat it. But GB misunderstanding has changed the view of things.

If you don't pertake of the emblem, you can see how you are endangering your salvation.

But does not the "creation" mentioned at ROM 8:19-22 refer to people with earthly hope?

Next time, I will discuss that.

Courz:
Some people who have contacts from the Bethel Headquarters are revealing that more changes are coming. The Birthday doctrine was mentioned as one of them. Well, time will tell if that's true. I have said it before that Jehovah's Witnesses need to prepare themselves for more changes. They should remember that these changes are because

1. They are rebranding to become just like every other church to keep the eyes of the governmental authorities away from them.

2. They want Free money from the World, the same world They call Satan's world. They need access to grants that are in millions of dollars from different governments in the world. Unfortunately, Jehovah's Witnesses do not have access to these grants. They pocket the money as the typical Business that they are.

3. Their religion has been in trouble with governmental authorities in different countries for their destructive policies.

4. These changes are not because they suddenly got New Light from Jehovah. They are reacting to incoming trouble which is why they use the phrase "The Governing body has decided".

5. These changes are because things are not well with them. They are signs of Trouble happening in the background that they are hiding from Jehovah's Witnesses.

Because of their recent loss in the Court case with the Norwegian government, some other countries are joining to investigate them. The Governing body are smelling trouble coming and are making changes accordingly. They are on a slow project to be become more mainstream like other churches and are trying to look less Culty.

Jehovah's Witnesses will always be seen as a Cult as long as they haven't done the Real Doctrinal changes that identify them as a Cult.

To show you the Mental state of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding these changes, here are some comments praising the change and calling it Love and Mercy from Jehovah. Meaning, Jehovah was wicked to have restricted them in the first place.

Mental illness is an epidemic in the religion.

You know I didn't take the rebranding suggestion at reddit serious until this current change. And this change was what the guy who predicted that the GB was trying to rebrand the org said. The other prediction was on birthdays.

Initially I thought that was crazy, but the guy is informed. I mean the slacks permission is way beyond my imagination. I just don't know the type of org they want to finally create.some have suggested a Megachurch type of church.

On the disfellowshiping. This is a good change that I appreciate, although it is kind of stingy a bit. But at least, it is something positive. The GB always go half way in applying the scriptures. I don't know if that is deliberate or it's still because they aren't thorough in their research. Mark Sanderson cited example of how God was merciful to the wayward Israelites over a long period of time, and Jesus given false prophetess Jezebel time to repent, and all they could learn is that it applies to immoral sinners and not to apostates? Seriously?

What was the major sin of the Israelites to which Jehovah warned them for decades? Isn't it apostasy? Was Jezebel's sin to which Jesus have her time not involve apostasy? Sometimes when they commit this scriptural blunders I wonder, what really is the problem here, is it that their researchers don't do a thorough job or the GB don't follow their advise? Perhaps I will analyse the recent change scripturally in a future post. I wonder why they always leave out something to change in the future when they are close to doing a clean job already. Do they enjoy making frequent changes.?

Maximus692:


Yet you left all the different religions claiming Christians with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines only to keep mentioning the NAME of just ONE shey?

Nothing do you!

This one I keep mentioning is the one with mostly wrong theology, and they make too much boast as if they had none.

Christendom theology make more sense than that of JW, I never knew this before until I started doing a study like Russell did. But instead of establishing JW theology, the study keep affirming the theology of Christendom to my utter shock. I now felt an obligation to preach to my fellow JWs here on nairaland to reason with them scripturally. Why?

Because I came to learn about the witnesses through preaching, so it will be loving to reciprocate that love by ministering to my faith and helping them see that we have been wrong in many ways. It's time to stop seeing Christendom as false. We own the title more than they do. Enough! We should rather see them as partners. We re all christians for God sake. If we never err in theology, then we can call them false, but the fact is they are far ahead in true theology than we are. And I am here to prove what my studies shows.

The problem is that Christendom pastors are either not qualified nor are too busy to equip their flock to punch JW theology with holes. That is why we hardly see strong scriptural objection when we preach to them at their doors. Many of their churches have the truth, but they can't prove it, so they follow our false teachings as if we are the ones with the truth. It is sad.

MaxInDHouse:


Who cares?

The fact that you're running after other religions and still not able to get one for yourself is an evidence that you're not a Jehovah's Witnesses!

You care. You wanted to know the name of my church. There you have it. Since I have been making my post have I mentioned a church I belonged? You cared to know.

What matters to God dear is YOUR faith in His son and relationship with Him, not the church name.

The Great Crowd is mentioned at Rev 7:9. The account says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

JW theology has changed overtime with regards to these group, but let's focus on the current doctrine.

In a September, 2019 Watchtower, this is said:

10 "Since 1935, Jehovah’s Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John’s vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth"

The question in the front burner is, is this group going to heaven or will they spend eternity on earth?

Rev 7:9 says that they are before the throne and before the lamb.

This would certainly mean that they are in heaven. However, JW object that this doesn't mean that they are in heaven. The publication says:

"9 In 1935 the identity of the great crowd in John’s vision was clarified. Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1) They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”​—including the wicked—​are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth. This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven​—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.​—Rev. 5:10."

It is true that at Matt 25:31,32 the nations being gathered before Jesus probably may not be literal. Yet we need to understand that we just don't know how this scripture will be fulfilled because Jesus will physically come to earth again. But let's go with this view that it is not possible. However, the case under discussion is the book of revelation. Let us analyse some verses.

Verse 14, 15 says:

So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 [b]That is why[/b]they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

Notice the reason why they are before the throne. Because they have washed their robes and made it white in the blood of the lamb.

In what way did they wash their robe? JWs say that they do this by having a righteous standing and clean conscience having exercised faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. This is where it gets messier. Now bear rev 7:15 in mind. Let's substitute.

They have a clean conscience and righteous standing, "that is why they" 'exercise strong faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice'.

That is how the account will appear if we substitute the JW understanding into that scripture. It doesn't make sense.

By saying "that is why" in that verse 15, it shows that their washing their robes qualified them for a reward, namely, standing before the throne. This will mean that their standing before the throne and the lamb can't be figurative. Remember that from verse 14 is the Elder's explanation of whom this great crowd is. In that case, you shouldn't be looking at things figurative, unless there is a strong indication for that. There is none here.

What does before the throne mean?

The 144,000 is said to sing before the throne at Rev 14:3. The JW believe that these ones singing before the throne means that they are literally in heaven. So they don't seem to disagree that standing before the throne can mean being before the throne in heaven. They just don't want to assign that meaning to the great crowd, and that is strange because of what is said further after they are described as standing before the throne.

Rev 7:15 says they render to God sacred service in his temple day and night. The GB says that this means that they serve Him in the earthly courtyard of the temple. They keep stretching the bible record out of its logical sequence. Because they detached "standing before the throne" from its logical scriptural meaning, they would need to assign "temple" another meaning. But the meaning of the verse lines up clearly. They were in heaven because of washing their robes, and their in heaven, they serve God in his temple. We don't need to squeeze the text so that it can align to our other wrong doctrine. This text has suffered in the hand of JWs because one of their theological error elsewhere demands that this text is assigned another meaning.

This temple seem to be connected with the throne of God and of the Lamb. These thrones they serve is the thrones in the New Jerusalem. See why I say so.

Rev 22
3 And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;

Did you notice the two thrones are in the city? And that sacred service is offered there? Perhaps the two thrones of God and of Christ is the temple being refered to. Please confirm in Rev 21:22.

The third reason why this group is heavenly is because of what is said about their robe.

Rev 3:4,5 shows that white garment is given to conquerors who obviously will reign with Jesus. We see this in action at Rev 6:11 where the anointed who finished their earthly course is given White robes. It should be noted that after chapter 6 reward, the next time we see others rewarded is at Rev 7:9-15. This lines up logically. This great crowd must be in heaven. Notice another thing said about the reward of those with white robe that is interesting.

Rev 22: 14

14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

Compare with rev 7:14

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. The Great crowd is usshered into the spring of Waters of life according to Rev 7: . The questions is, where is this water of life found?

The marginal reference will take us to Rev 22:1,2. Let's read:

And he showed me a river of water of life[, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations."

Notice that the river flows from the throne of God and of the lamb. And also that the river has trees of life in it. Our next question, where is the tree of life found?

Rev 2:7
7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

JWs believe that this paradise is in heaven.

Rev 22

14 Happy are those who wash their robes so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

You will notice a connection between the tree of life to the holy city, new Jerusalem and the paradise of God. So the Great crowd would have access to all these. Why will we not look at them as being in heaven?

MaxInDHouse:


So he's a JW and what is he looking for in other churches?


https://www.nairaland.com/7783732/want-know-more-deeper-life

Guy, we don't have business with attention seekers so if he wants help from JWs let him come out plainly and ask but first he must tell us the church he's attending presently apart from that ọmọ nothing for him!

Don't you know what JW PIMO means?

MaxInDHouse:

That's what you don't know about JWs once you're no longer with the fold you've missed a lot just as Saul left true God for witches.
So guy if you have any questions just ask the practicing JW like me who left my former religion to join them not someone who doesn't know the value of pure worship!

You are not deeply rooted in the teachings of JWs. Your claim to be an elder is also false, unless you're just a sitdown-de-look elder.

I will teach you about the doctrine of JWs and tell you were we got it wrong. That's what I am doing. I want to lovely preach to my religion so that they wake up. We teach bullshit. Had it not been for the shunning policy, people like us will be openly criticizing the teaching of the GB. But since they detest honest criticism by their members, we go underground. Like I say, I will tell my story one day.

MaxInDHouse:

The best thing to do is ignore him if he truly wants to chat with JWs he will mention the name of his religion then we can score which one is performing better regarding the order Jesus gave his disciples!

Lol. You're discussing with a JW PIMO. Just one day, I will tell my story.

You guys are too dull to decode.

Emusan:


This is the key!

One certain thing is that 1914 has no historical and scriptural backing, so anything build on it will continue to be false!

That's really the truth.

condaana0069:
I can't access or create new posts on Nairaland or any other external platform. However, if you have a topic in mind that you'd like to discuss or if there's something specific you'd like assistance with, feel free to share it here, and I'll do my best to help!

Which area are you specialized

Jehovah's witnesses believe that Christ Presence started in 1914. They understand the question of the apostles at Matt 24:3 to relate to the earthly sign that will indicate that Jesus has become a king of God's kingdom.

According to them, the pestilence, food shortages etc that were written in Matt 24 are all signs that Jesus has become king.

Their Enjoy Life book says:

"Jesus’ disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) In answer, Jesus foretold many things that would happen after he began ruling in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom. Some of these include war, food shortages, and earthquakes. (Read Matthew 24:7.) The Bible also foretold that people’s attitudes in “the last days” would make life “hard to deal with.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5) These conditions and attitudes have especially been evident since 1914."

JWs are really terrible in bible interpretation really. But is that what Jesus disciples were asking?

True, the question relates to Jesus coming as a king of God's kingdom, but the question is asking when Jesus will come as a glorious king and judge of the world. They want to know when God's kingdom will come. This question has always bothered them to the extent that after Jesus resurrected, they asked him if he was restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time. To show that these was their question at Matt 24:3, they joined that question with " and of the end of the age/world". Jesus coming as a judge will end the present age.

However, the JWs have also showed lack of knowledge in the meaning of the world for " end" at Matt 24:3.

In the study pane of JW Library, they said:

conclusion: Rendered from the Greek word syn·teʹlei·a, meaning “joint end; combination end; ending together.” (Mt 13:39, 40, 49; 28:20; Heb 9:26) This refers to a time period during which a combination of events would lead to the complete “end” mentioned at Mt 24:6, 14, where a different Greek word, teʹlos, is used.​—See study notes on Mt 24:6, 14 and Glossary, “Conclusion of the system of things."

They gave the Greek meaning of synteleia, but then turned the definition to something else altogether. HELP Word Study says:

Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate" – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation" – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott). See 4931 (synteléō).

So this Greek word synteleies combines syn and telos. B.F Wescott shows it means "an END involving many parts." So both telos and synteleies all mean an "end/completion", but synteleies is broader in scope.

The HELP word study continues:

4930 /syntéleia ("culminating end, finish" is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20).

Here makes it clear that synteleia refers to a completion, a fulfillment of a previous age, that ushers in a new one.

I wanted to say this. At Matt 28:20, we see synteleias being clearly used as the "end". It says:

20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Notice he says he is with them "all the days UNTIL...", what should appear there should be "END of the systems of things". Conclusion according to JW theology spans years. Jesus is rather saying he is with them from that day until when the end will come. Let's continue with Matt 24.

In the book of Matt 24, we see that Jesus explanation shows that this is what the apostles want to know - when the end will come, with Jesus as the glorious judge. For eg, see verse 6. He says there, "and the end is not yet". Then in verse 14, he says, " and then, the end will come". There you see telos in both verse 6 and 14. Now what they asked Jesus was the " synteleias (end) of the age", not "telos of the age". So why bring telos in verse 6 and 14? Simply because both word means "end". The chapter is using the word interchangeably.

The JW rather want to divide the meaning of the two words, and assign "end" to telos alone, forgetting that synteleias has both syn and telos combined. Wescott definition is pointed, "an end involving many parts".

If they were just asking about events on earth that will show that Jesus has become a king in heaven, Jesus wouldn't be saying in verse 6, "but the end is not YET". Rather, by saying that, Jesus shows that the end was what the question is about, as the apostles always do.

Jesus started speaking of the SIGN of that end with him as the glorious king in verse 30 of Matt 24. It says:

30 Then the SIGN of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

In their JW Library study pane, JWs throws an objection, it says:

"the sign of the Son of man: This sign is not the same as “the sign of [Jesus’] presence” mentioned at Mt 24:3. The sign mentioned here is connected with the “coming” of the Son of man as Judge to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation.​—See study note on coming in this verse."

Well, that is really what it is, the apostles asked, " what will be the SIGN of YOUR (Jesus) presence...". Jesus is now specifically answering that question, by saying " THEN, the SIGN of the son of man will appear..."

Take note of the word, " then". Jesus is saying after the heavenly phenomenon, the sign of his coming/presence will appear in heaven.

What JWs are saying happened in 1914, are actually what will happen in the future when Jesus comes. It should be noted that Jesus coming will likely take some time because the Greek word parousia basically means presence. Of course for Jesus to be present, he has to first arrive. But this presence is not to span over 100 years as the JW theology says, No.

To further show that what JWs view as happening in 1914 is actually what will happen in the future, we ask, what happens when Jesus becomes king of God's kingdom? See Dan. 7:14

14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

So Christ receiving the kingdom was not just to stay in heaven doing nothing on earth. He is to receive servitude from people's, nations, and languages. Is that what is happening now? No. The same JWs will say Satan is ruling the world. See another scripture as well:

Rev 11
15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

When does the JW believe this prophecy fulfilled?

One of their publication says regarding that verse:

"In October 1914, Jehovah God set his beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, on the throne in the heavenly Kingdom. At last, the Revelation vision of the Christian apostle John started to become a reality, and the announcement could be made: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ, and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:10; 4:1; 11:15)"

So if the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of Christ Jesus, how then is Satan still ruling the world?

This scriptural implication was why Russell announced in 1914, 'Gentiles times has passed, their kings have had their days". Yes, if Jesus starts ruling as king of that kingdom, no other gentile/worldly kings would still be ruling. So my advise to JW leadership is this, push all the scriptures you said fulfilled in 1914 to a future time when Jesus will come, then all your eschatological delima will go.

There is another problem I observed while researching this subject, the JW has a terrible understanding of verse 37. It says:

37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

The JWs stumble over that phrase " days of Noah" in relation to the presence of the son of man. Jesus was not saying that just as days of a person might refer to his lifetime, a period spanning many years, that Jesus presence will still span many years. Are this JW serious? Like seriously?

The point of Jesus statement is in verse 36. He stated that concerning that day, nobody knows. So he went further to build on that point. That as people took no note of when the flood came, that is how Christ will come suddenly. No one will know that day nor that hour. It will come when people are busy with normal activities of life, just as a thief comes unannounced.

I also see them connect Christ's presence to Jesus coming as a conquering king at Rev 6:2. They said it all happened in 1914. Oh my! Jesus coming as a conqueror king is linked to his coming at the end of the age. Notice Rev 17:14

14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” this event is the same with that at Rev 19:11-21.

This will all happen when he comes in the future, not 1914. The major problem of JW is 1914. It is said that one theological error leads to another

MightySparrow:


Of all the JWs on this platform this fellow is the most unintelligent one. I seldom respond to his foolishness.

That seems to be the right step to take.