₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus commanded his disciples not to hate one another {John 13:34} to the point where they will have to raise weapons against one another because Satan is the one behind killings among people who professed the same faith {John 8:44} he also prayed that they should have the same line of thought {John 17:22 compared to 1 Corinthians 1:10; Ephesians 4:3} he also warned them not to go about with religious titles {Matthew 23:10} and they should not be part of Satan's world {John 17:14-16} because in Satan's world hatred and killings is what will characterize them during the end time! Revelations 6:3-4

So i totally disagree with you it's either you present one religious group having the same belief globally as Jesus taught and prayed for his disciples to be or you don't have the answer. Over 41,000 different religions with contracting teachings and conflicting doctrines can't be said to be practicing what one person taught that is broad daylight scam!

You're free to have a different opinion. But don't be quick to forget that the Jews, who were God's people fought wars. As at the time they were fighting wars, God's law still stated that they should love their neighbors as themselves. In fact Jews even fought fellow Jews at times in war. While I personally don't like wars, our wish can't be God's command.

The issue isn't just what God allowed on earth for one to protect his territory as JW will say. In the book of Daniel, and Angel says he was going to fight a demonic angel that resisted him as he was coming to deliver message to Daniel. Cornelius was an army officer who received the holy spirit even when he was in the military. The praetorian guards who held Paul still accepted Christ. No scriptural record said they all resigned. Here John's responds to those in military service:

John 3
14 Also, those in military service were asking him: “What should we do?” And he said to them: “Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with your provisions.”

Secondly, Jehovah is called "Jehovah of Armies".

Jesus according to JW is a leader of an angelic army in heaven. In fact according to JWs, Jesus fought the Devil and his armies in 1914.

During Armageddon, according to JWs, Both Jesus and the Jehovah's witnesses who are anointed will fight the war of Armageddon.

Here again is a clear indication that the GB aren't thorough in their research. Personally, I would advise that the issue be left to personal decision. This is not area to be dogmatic.

2. Jesus prayed for unity.

Yes even at 1cor 1:10, having the same line of thought is advised. But this a reasonable advise, but that doesn't mean that if there is ever differences of opinion, God doesn't use them. Because of imperfection differences of opinion can't be avoided. What needs to be done however, is that they should be unified under one head, Christ. Why can we not say that differences of opinion doesnt mean that God doesn't use the so called scattered doctrines in Christendom?

1. In Judaism that Jesus was part and parcel of, there were differences of opinions and doctrines. Pharisees, Sadducees and the Zealots have different theological understanding. Jesus and his disciples differ from these 3. John the Baptist and his disciples have a slightly different opinions. Eg John and his disciples fast, Jesus and his disciples doesn't fast, at a time, John disciples kept baptizing under John's baptism for many years. However, all these groups worship in the same temple, sang the same songs, etc John disciples and that of Jesus were accepted. One man even performed miracles using Jesus name. That man would have a different opinion as well since he doesn't gather with Jesus.

After pentecost, Jesus fellowers in Jerusalem follower the law, while Paul's church outside Jerusalem were instructed not to follow the law. All were accepted by God. I have an article on this. Go read it.

Even in that Corinthian Cong you quoted, some say they belong to Paul, some to Apollo's, some to Peter, some to Christ. While unity is essential, God doesn't mean uniformity or a cultlike organization as JW do have. Christ also says he came to cause a division. So he expected that there would be a level of different opinions. But we should all worship together regardless.

MaxInDHouse:
So which religion or church is practicing what Jesus taught today?

Many churches practice what Jesus taught today.

Preaching:

Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Catholics, JWs, Mormons, Waldenses etc preach.

Mormons, JWs and Waldenses preach door to door. Both Jesus and his apostles mostly preached publicly. They do stand and preach to passersby, groups of people, families etc. It is a matter of debate if by house to house it means door to door. Another point not clear is what really is a house to house preaching. Knocking door to door? While that is not wrong in itself, as preaching method that effectively reach people is what Jesus will be concerned about, not style. But what we can't neglect is the fact that house to house preaching then may just be what we can call today a pastoral visit or a return visit. Eg, Jesus preached publicly, after that, he went as a visitor to Zacheus house. There he preached. After he did go to another person's house. These could be the house to house preaching the bible have in mind. Paul did get an invitation to people's house after preaching publicly as well. So the major preaching method then was public preaching, after, they do get invited to houses to preach as well. This doesn't mean that there are not few ocassional they may go to houses, but that doesn't seem to be the norm. The culture followed by JWs today was not the case then. Even if there such few cases as may be gleaned from Matt 10, it surely is rare. They mostly engage in public witnessing. Churches do this form of witnessing more by preaching with a mic and speaker in markets, streets, crusades etc. Standing on a road with a Mobile Cart isn't the biblical pattern of public witnessing.

But style is little an issue. The point is to reach the unsaved with the message of repentance.

Preaching Topic:
The major preaching message should be repentance and faith in Jesus. Of course God's kingdom needs to be advertised, but the main focus is repentance from dead works and faith in Jesus.

Jesus didn't preach the kingdom by telling people about it. He often says "repent for the the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near". The point is on repentance. Why? So as to enter the kingdom, so as not to be destroyed by the kingdom. Of course there are other things one can preach about, but without repentance and faith is Jesus, there is problem. While it is not bad to continue an interest shown by conducting a bible study that in many cases, the study last for years for just one individual. It is not a sin, but that is not a biblical pattern. It's just a move to indoctrinate people to become JWs. What should be done?

Preach the message of repentance to the UNSAVED, invite him to a church. It is there in the church that he will be taught "all the things that Jesus has commanded", not in his house. And you don't need to cover a book for a year or more to get baptized. If he accepts Jesus as his personal lord and savior and has repented of his sins, get him baptized bro and continue to teach him as he comes to church. Simple! That is a pattern we can see in the scriptures.

Here the church is ahead.


Love:

All denominations love themselves, even the 'tax collector's and sinners' love themselves.

Love for neighbor:

All denominations show some love for neighbors, but churches show far more love for neighbors than JWs, Mormons, Scientology, Amish community. Why? These operate as control groups. They have the "We vs Them" mentality. So they operate more within there circles than outside.

JWs don't go for war. This I feel is a plus to some extent, That is me as a person. but I won't do a comparison here as joining the military should be a personal decision. Jehovah and Jesus still fights war, the saints will fight war in Armageddon. Let's say for me, I don't like the thought of people fighting.

The churches are far more loving. They engage in humanitarian work for communities, less privileged, widows, orphans. Have hospitals, schools etc that impact on all even those not their members. JWs on the other hands have no program for even their own widows and orphans even when this is a form of worship, let alone widows of other religion.

JWs have as plus giving out publications free of charge, even bibles. They are less money centric than churches in that they don't force their members to bring money by stipulating penalty for not doing so. Of course, there may be a hidden reason for this like the Jimmy Swaggart case. But that is nonetheless a plus.

Use of Bible:

Many churches use and rely on the bible for their doctrines. But they don't engage in much indoctrination and brainwashing as JWs and other control groups do. JWs are smart when it comes to getting what they want using the bible. But the truth is, bible understanding is not their gift at all.

As a plus, the JWs carry their members along so well in order to indoctrinate them. One of the ways to get these into your psyche is through:

1. question and answer method.
These makes the congregant take the study materials home, do and home study, mark the answers before coming to meetings. This is an effective method of sending a teaching into your brain, esp if you comment in your own words. Before you comment in your own words, they teaching must have sunk in, you can then explain it in your own words. Powerful tool.

2. Preaching.
You learn well when you teach someone else what you have learned. This method esp the bible study session helps them get the teaching into your head. Perhaps that's why they demand that all must have a bible study even when there isn't any scriptural precedence.

3. Becoming Your Sole Spot:
They make videos on science, home economy, family life, business etc, so that you don't have to get any information elsewhere except from them. That is another trapping tool. They want all of you for themselves.

Evidence of the divine:.

JWs score zero on this one. No vision, angelic visitation, healing, speaking in tongues etc. This is a very important evidence of God using a group. If God uses a group, He will surely contact them or show supernatural evidence of such. JWs have none.

Worship style:

The churches are more closer to the type of worship described in the bible. Read through 1cor 14 and see how early christians had their worship. You will notice a place for tongues, prophecy, enterpreters etc. JWs only feature songs and prayer. It's as if 1cor 14 does not exist.

If you're looking for which church, find the one whose spiritual leader have evidence of divine appointment. Then obey all that the leader tells you to do? No. That is what JW GB will tell you. Your ultimate leader is Jesus. But treat him with respect as God's appointed person. Some of these anointed men even operate a non denominational churches, others don't. S. L. Osborn was truly anointed. Kumuyi is another man I am investigating.

I still have a whole lot. But let me stop here.

MaxInDHouse:
There are many religions and in fact religion is as old as mankind on planet earth but with all the nations in ancient times being in one religion/form of worship or another everyone is saying "God is one"
Are you of the opinion that religions are like different roads leading to the same destination or there is a particular religion that God approves?
What should we expect from the religion that's approved by God?

I am Maximus one of Jehovah's Witnesses!

The true religion is the one sanctioned by God or His agent.

God formed a means of worship during the time of the Israelites when He chose them as His special people. This however, does not mean that others elsewhere can't chose to serve God. Job and the community he lived in served God in Uz while the Jews were serving the same God in Egypt and also in Mount Sinai and later in Canaan. I would write an article on this later.

Later however, Jesus showed that what the Father is looking out for is those that will serve Him in spirit and truth. That being the case, religion is secondary to the worship of God. What is essential is worshiping him by means of his son Jesus. Faith in Jesus is the key, not the name of your church.

Currently the church is living in a period Jesus described as the Weed and the Wheat period. (Matt 13) Jesus says that both will grow TOGETHER until the harvest. JW teach that this period has passed and that they are the storehouse where the wheat is gathered. In a later article, I will show what point they are missing out in there conclusions. We are living in a period that the weed and the wheat grow together. During the harvest, when the son of man will come towards the end of the world, he will do the separating of the wheat and the weed, then he will burn up the weed. This hasn't happened yet. So if you're true to God and served Him faithfully, He is seeing you. When that time reach, He will separate you for salvation. If you're not serving in spirit and truth, you will be punished.

Does that mean that you just follow any denomination that profess faith in Christ? No. God has his ordained Stewards, what JWs call faithful and discreet slave. Today, this slave is properly a class of GOs who God divinely/supernaturally contacted for a Ministry, not the 9 men in Warwick. If Jehovah didn't contact you nor divinely ordain you for a ministry and your ministry is not ordained by one who is God's divinely ordained servant, you are operating a human organization. Your organization have no approval from God. However, while that is condemnable, it is still good and best to let God have the final say on those issues. But it is dangerous to form a group that God didn't divinely approve, more especially when the group says that they are the ONLY ones God is using. This is very dangerous because they will put you against the true servants whom God has divinely ordained, unless of course, you don't follow the group leaders unscriptural directions, but approve and obey God's divinely ordained servants.

The recent changes on the treatment of disfellowshiped persons among JWs is no longer news. They have softened the approach and treatment of disfellowshiped persons. I want to appreciate this new change for it is good. In my earlier series on shunning, I did show why strict shunning as done by JWs is not biblical. It is rather unloving. From my research, I feel that each religious Leader(s) have the responsibility to apply discipline to it's congregant. The bible allows the Leaders to decide when to disfellowship a member in their midst. There is no way we can pindown one rule for this matter scripturally. But as for strict shunning, that is not biblical. If you care to know more about my view of shunning among JWs, see https://www.nairaland.com/7951638/ministry-jws-part-6-shunning

In the Governing Body update #2 2024, there new policy was announced. I have some observations to make.

1. Why Exclude Apostates from loving encouragement?

During the update Mark Sanderson stated that they now have a new understanding on 2 Tim 2:24,25. After reading the study Note comment on that verse, Mark said "this could include those who disregard scriptural counsel and get involved in serious wrongdoing." However, the study Note says:

"Paul uses a Greek word that in this context refers to people who resist Christian teachings or who place themselves in opposition to them. Paul may have had in mind, among others, those in the congregation in Ephesus who had a negative attitude toward following Scriptural counsel or heeding admonition from brothers taking the lead."

The study Note shows that these are apostates from JWs definition. They resist/oppose christian teachings.

Few verses above, Paul had just spoken of Hymenaeus and Philetus. You will notice that these two were handed over to Satan, it is likely that they are still in the congregation. Perhaps that is why Paul said in verse 20 that in a large house, there are different vessels, one good and one for a use lacking honor. So, Paul could have these two and those they deceived who are still in the congregation in mind when he stated what is in 2tim 2:24,25. Even if one maintains that Hymenaeus and Philetus can't be among since they have been handed over to Satan, those they subverted their faith, could be the example of those Paul says are not favourably disposed. The point is, those not favorably disposed are opposers to the christian teaching. Vincent commentary says about this:

"The meaning is, those who oppose the servant of the Lord; Who carry on the ἀντιθέσεις oppositions (1 Timothy 6:20); equals gainsayers (ἀντιλέγοντες Titus 1:9). Paul's word is ἀντίκεισθαι to oppose: see 1 Corinthians 16:9; Galatians 5:17; Philippians 1:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:4."

This is not just one who disregard a scriptural counsel and fail into sin, this is one who do not agree to some christian teaching and who oppose those christian teachings. So when Mark Sanderson says the new arrangement does not include " apostates and those who voluntarily promote wrong conduct", he is directly going against the context of 2Tim 2:24,25. Those two groups that the new policy isolated are those 2tim 2:24,25 says needs to be spoken to with mildness. It should be noted that what JWs call apostates is what other theologians call heretics. Many of them want to be in the congregation but they do not agree with some teachings of the GB.

Secondly, Mark Sanderson says the Governing body was trying to see how they will imitate Jehovah's mercy toward wrongdoers. He stated that His mercies was available for those who even show no sign of repentance.

That is a good move Governing Body. We should try to imitate Jehovah. But is it not shocking that while trying to imitate Jehovah, you limit the imitation to few 'wrongdoers'?

In the update, the example of how Jehovah was merciful to the Israelites was mentioned. But, are you saying that the Governing Body doesn't know that the major problem of the Israelites was APOSTASY? What was the major sin of both Judah and Israel? Was it not that many many kings dabbled into Apostasy?

This is the reason I feel that some changes done by the GB is not out of a new understanding of scripture, they rather decide on what to change, then go to find a scripture to support it. In other not to make it sound as if that is what they did, they will just tell the brothers, 'after prayerful study, we saw one or two scripture that indicates we need to make adjustment in our view of so and so'. It doesn't seem true that the Governing Body, after a careful scrutiny of the scriptures and input from their research team will omit this fact that Jehovah showed mercy to apostates. Coming to think of it, do they want us to believe that both then and their research team didn't know the context of 2john 9-11 for decades now?

I propose two theory for this: changes occur to JW theology either because, the GB and their team of researchers are not thorough meticulous bible students or they just chose what to change whatever they want and then walk backwards to find scripture to support it. The latter is evidently true.

In the update, the case of Jezebel of Rev 2:20 was mentioned as an example of mercy from Jesus. Let's read:

20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols."

From the bold faced, does Jezebel not fit the description "apostates and those who voluntarily promote wrong conduct"? The answer is obvious, but what the GB learned from Jehovah is that Jehovah's mercy does not include apostates. This decision is not based on the bible.

Then comes 2john 9-11. This is now understood to apply only to apostates. The update pointed out that the case of 1cor 5:11-13 is different from this one. But I wonder why they didn't follow the result of their own research to the full. If the restriction to the wrongdoers is only in "association" and not "eating with them", that is, not socialize, why then didn't they say you can greet and talk to them briefly whether inside or outside the kingdom hall? Obviously, they didn't intend to follow the scriptures, they just have a policy decision already made but just want to give it a scriptural basis. If tomorrow they receive pressure from courts, or their branch committees to add one or two policy, they will do it, and then look for another scripture they will claim they now understand in a new way. I am not against a church making policy for their members, they always have that right, they are the leaders, but don't keep making it sound as if the decision is because of a bible study you did.

In summary, I appreciate the softening of the way disfellowshiped ones are treated because no matter how little, it is something. It is also true that the GB doesn't tolerate any opinion apart from theirs. And this is reflected in the new update. My advise is to start following the scripture in your decision-making. That is what your sheep would appreciate more.

My 2 cent.

This topic is a follow up from this one: https://www.nairaland.com/8037438/ministry-jehovahs-witnesses-part-11

According to JWs the creation at Rom 8:19-22 apply to Jehovah's witnesses with earthly hope. We read the verses:

"For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."

The belief is that during the thousand year reign of Christ and his 144,000, the earthly hopers will gradually attain perfection. The glorious freedom of the children of God is viewed as perfection. And that the earthly hopers will attain this after the thousand year reign.

Since those the witnesses view as earthly hopers walk by the spirit, are spirit minded, these verses are not referring to them.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that the other sheep start to be gathered around the 1930's. That shows that they do not belong to the creation Paul stated here. Why?

Notice what ROM 8:22
22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."

It says until NOW. by saying " now", it means that the creation Paul has in mind were in existence at the time he was writing. So this is definitely not a group from the 20th century.

It is true that all, including the sons of God were once subjected to enslavement to sin, but as the true christians have accepted Christ, they are not seen as part of that creation under sin. So Paul's use of creation must refer to those that have not accepted Christ. Some among them will enjoy from the rulership of God's sons.

Do we have a clue of whom they are?

See this scriptures:

Gen 18:18
Why, Abraham is surely going to become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed by means of him." Compare Gen 22:18; 26:4

From here we see two groups, Sons of God a.k.a sons of Abraham and the nations that will benefit from them.

After Satan is bound in abyss, see what the bible says:

Rev 20:3
And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

Here we see that " Nations" will survive to be ruled by God's sons. Confirming that this is so, notice that after Satan's release those he tempted are called nations from four corners of the earth. (Rev 20;7)

Some from among these nations will definitely repent and follow Jesus, and eventually become part of God's sons.

So you as a JWs should be among those that belong to Christ and will rule with Jesus. Meaning you're not among that creation.

Courz:
When I first saw the predictions, I only saw them as that only based on personal opinions. But now that some of them have manifested into reality, I strongly believe that those predictions came from Bethelites in the ExJW Reddit forum. They are the ones leaking these changes but are trying to carefully hide their identities so that they can't be traced by phrasing it as Predictions.

There is also something else I noticed in that forum. There are some posts people make there implying questions that sound like this: What is It that you want changed in the organisation? or What will make you go back to the organisation? Those posts are very suspicious and I strongly believe they are from Watchtower Spies trying to fish for information to gather to the Governing body. If not so, why are some of the suggestions manifesting into changes? Sisters wearing trousers was just a joke in that forum but Watchtower picked It and implemented it.

As for this habit of The Governing body committing blunders, if you have read this book Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, Ex Governing body member, you will understand why they do it. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society didn't start out as a Religion and it is still not a Religion. Charles Taze Russell made that very clear in his letter to Watchtower Shareholders. It is a Business Corporation trying to act like a Religion. When they were renamed as Jehovah's Witnesses, Rutherford made it clear that they are not a Religion but a Corporation. He said Religion is a Snare and a Racket. So, Gaining Truth by the help of the Holy Spirit once and for all isn't their Goal. They have admitted that they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit so the Holy Spirit is not with them at all which is now manifested by numerous errors in doctrine. It is just like an Armed robber pretending to be a Pastor. Because he is greedy and his main goal is Money, he won't execute his Pastoral work well. His weaknesses and true intentions will show.

Ray Franz said when the Governing body gather to meet, they do nothing like Reading the Bible. They are only concerned about disfellowhipping people ( Look how far they have come with that) or if anyone broke any rule. They don't even know how to do research and don't know a lot of Bible verses. He said so. They have a separate team for that. So, their Bible knowledge will be low. That's why they keep committing blunders and don't mind changing from one error to another. They also don't mind making blunders because they have already formed a doctrine called New Light to cover them. Therefore, they can make as many blunders as they want since they already have an excuse for them. So, the interest to improve doctrinally is not there at all. What you are seeing with the Governing body is proof of what happens to someone when he or she is not inspired by the Holy Spirit and have no intention of being a Religion.

Wow, some of what you said here is an eye opener seriously. That is if they are true. I will research some of them when I have time. I am usually interested in bible research. But I need to confirm some aspect of what you said, the corporation aspect. That it is a business corporation not religious. Lol. Seriously?

On Sunday, 24th March, 2024, Jehovah's witnesses world over will be remembering the death of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will do this after sundown in all the kingdom halls all over the world. This is a commendable observance that we all should be happy with. At Luke 22:19, Jesus instructed that we should keep doing this in remembrance of him.

How often this ocassion should be done is still a subject of controversy. The JWs decided to do their's yearly since it is an anniversary. They have a point in chosing Nissan 14, and in doing it annually. However the church has undergone controversies over this issue that has resulted in a different date. Well, the good news is that they still celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal. It should also be noted that this year's Nissan 14 didn't fall on 24th of March as JW invitation seem to suggest.

But the major issue is on who pertake of the emblem. This aspect is even more important than the dates and how often it is celebrated. Why? Jesus said:

“... Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me." (John 6:53-57)

The bold-faced is the scary aspect. The emblem being circulated during the memorial represents Jesus flesh and blood. Jesus was plain that eating of them will help one gain everlasting life. This is not an issue one should joke with. If one deliberately ignores pertaking of the emblem, he is risking his eternal future unless circumstances prevents him from eating. In that case, it won't be deliberate.

JWs Governing body is not thorough and meticulous in scrutinizing the scriptures, that is why they haven't seen the danger of their doctrine. You can imagine that after many years of reading 1cor 5:11-13, and 2john 9-11, it is now they understand the context of these scriptures. That is just one example.

They teach that those who pertake of the emblem are only the anointed with the heavenly hope. Heavenly hope is for christians who have faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. That is the major focus of the new testament. If you want to be convinced that not only 144,000 will go to heaven, please read these threads: (https://www.nairaland.com/8033074/ministry-jws-part-10-great; https://www.nairaland.com/7532433/144000.html)

How does one know he is anointed?

In a 2020 article entitled "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit" it is stated that God's spirit makes it absolutely clear to them that they are joint heirs with Christ. As such, a heavenly class. According to them, you will have an inner conviction that you belong.

However, that is not what Paul is talking about. The context is not discussing earthly inheritance versus heavenly inheritance. It is rather discussing fleshly or cannal humans versus spirit led christians. Check the context. You don't need to wait for many decades for the GB to start reading this text from context. If you don't belong to the spirit led persons Paul spoke about in that chapter, you're a fleshly minded individual. You're not a true christian.

See verses 4 and 5:

"so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit, on the things of the spirit."

Verse 9 says:

9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him."

So this chapter is not talking about earthly versus heavenly, but fleshly minded people versus spirit led true christians. If ROM 8:15,16 does not apply to you, you don't belong to Christ.

In addition to what I wrote under my article about the Great Crowd, notice another point.

God also called the Great Crowd sons.

Rev 7:17- God will guide the Great crowd to springs of waters of life. Now notice what Rev 21:6,7 says:

And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free. 7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son."

The inheritance spoken of must include the ones mentioned at Rev 21:3,4. And that scripture is applied by JWs to the earthly class. But they fail to read down to verse 7, to see that these inheritance must be for the anointed ones when Jerusalem, the city, has come down. One should also note that verse 7 says ANYONE conquering, not only 144,000.

You can make your own emblem and eat at home if you feel that the brothers might start viewing you as special when in reality all of them should eat it. But GB misunderstanding has changed the view of things.

If you don't pertake of the emblem, you can see how you are endangering your salvation.

But does not the "creation" mentioned at ROM 8:19-22 refer to people with earthly hope?

Next time, I will discuss that.

Courz:
Some people who have contacts from the Bethel Headquarters are revealing that more changes are coming. The Birthday doctrine was mentioned as one of them. Well, time will tell if that's true. I have said it before that Jehovah's Witnesses need to prepare themselves for more changes. They should remember that these changes are because

1. They are rebranding to become just like every other church to keep the eyes of the governmental authorities away from them.

2. They want Free money from the World, the same world They call Satan's world. They need access to grants that are in millions of dollars from different governments in the world. Unfortunately, Jehovah's Witnesses do not have access to these grants. They pocket the money as the typical Business that they are.

3. Their religion has been in trouble with governmental authorities in different countries for their destructive policies.

4. These changes are not because they suddenly got New Light from Jehovah. They are reacting to incoming trouble which is why they use the phrase "The Governing body has decided".

5. These changes are because things are not well with them. They are signs of Trouble happening in the background that they are hiding from Jehovah's Witnesses.

Because of their recent loss in the Court case with the Norwegian government, some other countries are joining to investigate them. The Governing body are smelling trouble coming and are making changes accordingly. They are on a slow project to be become more mainstream like other churches and are trying to look less Culty.

Jehovah's Witnesses will always be seen as a Cult as long as they haven't done the Real Doctrinal changes that identify them as a Cult.

To show you the Mental state of Jehovah's Witnesses regarding these changes, here are some comments praising the change and calling it Love and Mercy from Jehovah. Meaning, Jehovah was wicked to have restricted them in the first place.

Mental illness is an epidemic in the religion.

You know I didn't take the rebranding suggestion at reddit serious until this current change. And this change was what the guy who predicted that the GB was trying to rebrand the org said. The other prediction was on birthdays.

Initially I thought that was crazy, but the guy is informed. I mean the slacks permission is way beyond my imagination. I just don't know the type of org they want to finally create.some have suggested a Megachurch type of church.

On the disfellowshiping. This is a good change that I appreciate, although it is kind of stingy a bit. But at least, it is something positive. The GB always go half way in applying the scriptures. I don't know if that is deliberate or it's still because they aren't thorough in their research. Mark Sanderson cited example of how God was merciful to the wayward Israelites over a long period of time, and Jesus given false prophetess Jezebel time to repent, and all they could learn is that it applies to immoral sinners and not to apostates? Seriously?

What was the major sin of the Israelites to which Jehovah warned them for decades? Isn't it apostasy? Was Jezebel's sin to which Jesus have her time not involve apostasy? Sometimes when they commit this scriptural blunders I wonder, what really is the problem here, is it that their researchers don't do a thorough job or the GB don't follow their advise? Perhaps I will analyse the recent change scripturally in a future post. I wonder why they always leave out something to change in the future when they are close to doing a clean job already. Do they enjoy making frequent changes.?

Maximus692:
Yet you left all the different religions claiming Christians with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines only to keep mentioning the NAME of just ONE shey?

Nothing do you!

This one I keep mentioning is the one with mostly wrong theology, and they make too much boast as if they had none.

Christendom theology make more sense than that of JW, I never knew this before until I started doing a study like Russell did. But instead of establishing JW theology, the study keep affirming the theology of Christendom to my utter shock. I now felt an obligation to preach to my fellow JWs here on nairaland to reason with them scripturally. Why?

Because I came to learn about the witnesses through preaching, so it will be loving to reciprocate that love by ministering to my faith and helping them see that we have been wrong in many ways. It's time to stop seeing Christendom as false. We own the title more than they do. Enough! We should rather see them as partners. We re all christians for God sake. If we never err in theology, then we can call them false, but the fact is they are far ahead in true theology than we are. And I am here to prove what my studies shows.

The problem is that Christendom pastors are either not qualified nor are too busy to equip their flock to punch JW theology with holes. That is why we hardly see strong scriptural objection when we preach to them at their doors. Many of their churches have the truth, but they can't prove it, so they follow our false teachings as if we are the ones with the truth. It is sad.

MaxInDHouse:
Who cares?

The fact that you're running after other religions and still not able to get one for yourself is an evidence that you're not a Jehovah's Witnesses!

You care. You wanted to know the name of my church. There you have it. Since I have been making my post have I mentioned a church I belonged? You cared to know.

What matters to God dear is YOUR faith in His son and relationship with Him, not the church name.

The Great Crowd is mentioned at Rev 7:9. The account says:

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands."

JW theology has changed overtime with regards to these group, but let's focus on the current doctrine.

In a September, 2019 Watchtower, this is said:

10 "Since 1935, Jehovah’s Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John’s vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth"

The question in the front burner is, is this group going to heaven or will they spend eternity on earth?

Rev 7:9 says that they are before the throne and before the lamb.

This would certainly mean that they are in heaven. However, JW object that this doesn't mean that they are in heaven. The publication says:

"9 In 1935 the identity of the great crowd in John’s vision was clarified. Jehovah’s Witnesses came to realize that the great crowd do not literally have to be in heaven to stand “before the throne and before the Lamb.” Rather, their position is figurative. Even though they would live on earth, the great crowd could stand “before the throne” by recognizing Jehovah’s authority and by submitting to his sovereignty. (Isa. 66:1) They could stand “before the Lamb” by exercising faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Similarly, at Matthew 25:31, 32, “all the nations”​—including the wicked—​are said to be “gathered before” Jesus on his glorious throne. Clearly, all these nations are, not in heaven, but on earth. This adjusted understanding makes sense. It explains why the Bible does not say that the great crowd is raised to heaven. Only one group is promised everlasting life in heaven​—the 144,000, who will “rule as kings over the earth” with Jesus.​—Rev. 5:10."

It is true that at Matt 25:31,32 the nations being gathered before Jesus probably may not be literal. Yet we need to understand that we just don't know how this scripture will be fulfilled because Jesus will physically come to earth again. But let's go with this view that it is not possible. However, the case under discussion is the book of revelation. Let us analyse some verses.

Verse 14, 15 says:

So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 [b]That is why[/b]they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

Notice the reason why they are before the throne. Because they have washed their robes and made it white in the blood of the lamb.

In what way did they wash their robe? JWs say that they do this by having a righteous standing and clean conscience having exercised faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. This is where it gets messier. Now bear rev 7:15 in mind. Let's substitute.

They have a clean conscience and righteous standing, "that is why they" 'exercise strong faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice'.

That is how the account will appear if we substitute the JW understanding into that scripture. It doesn't make sense.

By saying "that is why" in that verse 15, it shows that their washing their robes qualified them for a reward, namely, standing before the throne. This will mean that their standing before the throne and the lamb can't be figurative. Remember that from verse 14 is the Elder's explanation of whom this great crowd is. In that case, you shouldn't be looking at things figurative, unless there is a strong indication for that. There is none here.

What does before the throne mean?

The 144,000 is said to sing before the throne at Rev 14:3. The JW believe that these ones singing before the throne means that they are literally in heaven. So they don't seem to disagree that standing before the throne can mean being before the throne in heaven. They just don't want to assign that meaning to the great crowd, and that is strange because of what is said further after they are described as standing before the throne.

Rev 7:15 says they render to God sacred service in his temple day and night. The GB says that this means that they serve Him in the earthly courtyard of the temple. They keep stretching the bible record out of its logical sequence. Because they detached "standing before the throne" from its logical scriptural meaning, they would need to assign "temple" another meaning. But the meaning of the verse lines up clearly. They were in heaven because of washing their robes, and their in heaven, they serve God in his temple. We don't need to squeeze the text so that it can align to our other wrong doctrine. This text has suffered in the hand of JWs because one of their theological error elsewhere demands that this text is assigned another meaning.

This temple seem to be connected with the throne of God and of the Lamb. These thrones they serve is the thrones in the New Jerusalem. See why I say so.

Rev 22
3 And there will no longer be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his slaves will offer him sacred service;

Did you notice the two thrones are in the city? And that sacred service is offered there? Perhaps the two thrones of God and of Christ is the temple being refered to. Please confirm in Rev 21:22.

The third reason why this group is heavenly is because of what is said about their robe.

Rev 3:4,5 shows that white garment is given to conquerors who obviously will reign with Jesus. We see this in action at Rev 6:11 where the anointed who finished their earthly course is given White robes. It should be noted that after chapter 6 reward, the next time we see others rewarded is at Rev 7:9-15. This lines up logically. This great crowd must be in heaven. Notice another thing said about the reward of those with white robe that is interesting.

Rev 22: 14

14 Happy are those who wash their robes, so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

Compare with rev 7:14

"These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

4. The Great crowd is usshered into the spring of Waters of life according to Rev 7: . The questions is, where is this water of life found?

The marginal reference will take us to Rev 22:1,2. Let's read:

And he showed me a river of water of life[, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations."

Notice that the river flows from the throne of God and of the lamb. And also that the river has trees of life in it. Our next question, where is the tree of life found?

Rev 2:7
7 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

JWs believe that this paradise is in heaven.

Rev 22

14 Happy are those who wash their robes so that they may have authority to go to the trees of life and that they may gain entrance into the city through its gates."

19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.

You will notice a connection between the tree of life to the holy city, new Jerusalem and the paradise of God. So the Great crowd would have access to all these. Why will we not look at them as being in heaven?

MaxInDHouse:
So he's a JW and what is he looking for in other churches?


https://www.nairaland.com/7783732/want-know-more-deeper-life

Guy, we don't have business with attention seekers so if he wants help from JWs let him come out plainly and ask but first he must tell us the church he's attending presently apart from that ọmọ nothing for him!

Don't you know what JW PIMO means?

MaxInDHouse:
That's what you don't know about JWs once you're no longer with the fold you've missed a lot just as Saul left true God for witches.
So guy if you have any questions just ask the practicing JW like me who left my former religion to join them not someone who doesn't know the value of pure worship!

You are not deeply rooted in the teachings of JWs. Your claim to be an elder is also false, unless you're just a sitdown-de-look elder.

I will teach you about the doctrine of JWs and tell you were we got it wrong. That's what I am doing. I want to lovely preach to my religion so that they wake up. We teach bullshit. Had it not been for the shunning policy, people like us will be openly criticizing the teaching of the GB. But since they detest honest criticism by their members, we go underground. Like I say, I will tell my story one day.

MaxInDHouse:
The best thing to do is ignore him if he truly wants to chat with JWs he will mention the name of his religion then we can score which one is performing better regarding the order Jesus gave his disciples!

Lol. You're discussing with a JW PIMO. Just one day, I will tell my story.

You guys are too dull to decode.

Emusan:
This is the key!

One certain thing is that 1914 has no historical and scriptural backing, so anything build on it will continue to be false!

That's really the truth.

condaana0069:
I can't access or create new posts on Nairaland or any other external platform. However, if you have a topic in mind that you'd like to discuss or if there's something specific you'd like assistance with, feel free to share it here, and I'll do my best to help!

Which area are you specialized

Jehovah's witnesses believe that Christ Presence started in 1914. They understand the question of the apostles at Matt 24:3 to relate to the earthly sign that will indicate that Jesus has become a king of God's kingdom.

According to them, the pestilence, food shortages etc that were written in Matt 24 are all signs that Jesus has become king.

Their Enjoy Life book says:

"Jesus’ disciples asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) In answer, Jesus foretold many things that would happen after he began ruling in heaven as King of God’s Kingdom. Some of these include war, food shortages, and earthquakes. (Read Matthew 24:7.) The Bible also foretold that people’s attitudes in “the last days” would make life “hard to deal with.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5) These conditions and attitudes have especially been evident since 1914."

JWs are really terrible in bible interpretation really. But is that what Jesus disciples were asking?

True, the question relates to Jesus coming as a king of God's kingdom, but the question is asking when Jesus will come as a glorious king and judge of the world. They want to know when God's kingdom will come. This question has always bothered them to the extent that after Jesus resurrected, they asked him if he was restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time. To show that these was their question at Matt 24:3, they joined that question with " and of the end of the age/world". Jesus coming as a judge will end the present age.

However, the JWs have also showed lack of knowledge in the meaning of the world for " end" at Matt 24:3.

In the study pane of JW Library, they said:

conclusion: Rendered from the Greek word syn·teʹlei·a, meaning “joint end; combination end; ending together.” (Mt 13:39, 40, 49; 28:20; Heb 9:26) This refers to a time period during which a combination of events would lead to the complete “end” mentioned at Mt 24:6, 14, where a different Greek word, teʹlos, is used.​—See study notes on Mt 24:6, 14 and Glossary, “Conclusion of the system of things."

They gave the Greek meaning of synteleia, but then turned the definition to something else altogether. HELP Word Study says:

Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate" – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation" – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott). See 4931 (synteléō).

So this Greek word synteleies combines syn and telos. B.F Wescott shows it means "an END involving many parts." So both telos and synteleies all mean an "end/completion", but synteleies is broader in scope.

The HELP word study continues:

4930 /syntéleia ("culminating end, finish" is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20).

Here makes it clear that synteleia refers to a completion, a fulfillment of a previous age, that ushers in a new one.

I wanted to say this. At Matt 28:20, we see synteleias being clearly used as the "end". It says:

20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

Notice he says he is with them "all the days UNTIL...", what should appear there should be "END of the systems of things". Conclusion according to JW theology spans years. Jesus is rather saying he is with them from that day until when the end will come. Let's continue with Matt 24.

In the book of Matt 24, we see that Jesus explanation shows that this is what the apostles want to know - when the end will come, with Jesus as the glorious judge. For eg, see verse 6. He says there, "and the end is not yet". Then in verse 14, he says, " and then, the end will come". There you see telos in both verse 6 and 14. Now what they asked Jesus was the " synteleias (end) of the age", not "telos of the age". So why bring telos in verse 6 and 14? Simply because both word means "end". The chapter is using the word interchangeably.

The JW rather want to divide the meaning of the two words, and assign "end" to telos alone, forgetting that synteleias has both syn and telos combined. Wescott definition is pointed, "an end involving many parts".

If they were just asking about events on earth that will show that Jesus has become a king in heaven, Jesus wouldn't be saying in verse 6, "but the end is not YET". Rather, by saying that, Jesus shows that the end was what the question is about, as the apostles always do.

Jesus started speaking of the SIGN of that end with him as the glorious king in verse 30 of Matt 24. It says:

30 Then the SIGN of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

In their JW Library study pane, JWs throws an objection, it says:

"the sign of the Son of man: This sign is not the same as “the sign of [Jesus’] presence” mentioned at Mt 24:3. The sign mentioned here is connected with the “coming” of the Son of man as Judge to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation.​—See study note on coming in this verse."

Well, that is really what it is, the apostles asked, " what will be the SIGN of YOUR (Jesus) presence...". Jesus is now specifically answering that question, by saying " THEN, the SIGN of the son of man will appear..."

Take note of the word, " then". Jesus is saying after the heavenly phenomenon, the sign of his coming/presence will appear in heaven.

What JWs are saying happened in 1914, are actually what will happen in the future when Jesus comes. It should be noted that Jesus coming will likely take some time because the Greek word parousia basically means presence. Of course for Jesus to be present, he has to first arrive. But this presence is not to span over 100 years as the JW theology says, No.

To further show that what JWs view as happening in 1914 is actually what will happen in the future, we ask, what happens when Jesus becomes king of God's kingdom? See Dan. 7:14

14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed."

So Christ receiving the kingdom was not just to stay in heaven doing nothing on earth. He is to receive servitude from people's, nations, and languages. Is that what is happening now? No. The same JWs will say Satan is ruling the world. See another scripture as well:

Rev 11
15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

When does the JW believe this prophecy fulfilled?

One of their publication says regarding that verse:

"In October 1914, Jehovah God set his beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, on the throne in the heavenly Kingdom. At last, the Revelation vision of the Christian apostle John started to become a reality, and the announcement could be made: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ, and he [Jehovah] will rule as king forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:10; 4:1; 11:15)"

So if the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of Christ Jesus, how then is Satan still ruling the world?

This scriptural implication was why Russell announced in 1914, 'Gentiles times has passed, their kings have had their days". Yes, if Jesus starts ruling as king of that kingdom, no other gentile/worldly kings would still be ruling. So my advise to JW leadership is this, push all the scriptures you said fulfilled in 1914 to a future time when Jesus will come, then all your eschatological delima will go.

There is another problem I observed while researching this subject, the JW has a terrible understanding of verse 37. It says:

37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

The JWs stumble over that phrase " days of Noah" in relation to the presence of the son of man. Jesus was not saying that just as days of a person might refer to his lifetime, a period spanning many years, that Jesus presence will still span many years. Are this JW serious? Like seriously?

The point of Jesus statement is in verse 36. He stated that concerning that day, nobody knows. So he went further to build on that point. That as people took no note of when the flood came, that is how Christ will come suddenly. No one will know that day nor that hour. It will come when people are busy with normal activities of life, just as a thief comes unannounced.

I also see them connect Christ's presence to Jesus coming as a conquering king at Rev 6:2. They said it all happened in 1914. Oh my! Jesus coming as a conqueror king is linked to his coming at the end of the age. Notice Rev 17:14

14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.” this event is the same with that at Rev 19:11-21.

This will all happen when he comes in the future, not 1914. The major problem of JW is 1914. It is said that one theological error leads to another

MightySparrow:
Of all the JWs on this platform this fellow is the most unintelligent one. I seldom respond to his foolishness.

That seems to be the right step to take.

Windblown2much:
Upon all the happiness tonight, no giveaway to celebrate the win?

Make the rich and privileged assist the poor and less privileged to get something to eat tonight

Let the victory and happiness tonight be felt across the country! The winning really sweet me

Chai my network no gree me watch am finish. How did Super Eagles win? The goal keeper catch some balls or what?

MightySparrow:
The Jehovah's Witnesses's organization has as one of its prime doctrines of 1914 return of Jesus and thereafter began his invisible presence and rulership over his discreet slaves. In the recent waves of ' New Lights ' certain teachings have been discarded, modified and new ones embraced. The latest of these is the wearing of beard by choice not as a requirement as formerly taught and practiced.
Since the death of the founder,. Charles Taxes Russell, many things have changed and splinter groups arose due to internal wranglings and leadership tussles. Many in recent times have left the organization by disagreeing with some doctrines, or a disfellowshiped. In certain European countries, litigations are ongoing for various reasons with the States,. Notable among whose are Spain, Norway and few others.

In a recent convention in Puerto Rico, the topic addressed here was considered and it seems to be jettisoned in no distant future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naqrrit4a6U?si=MMVoBXmWITKrWwc4

It's unfortunate that those who claim to defend JWs here lack knowledge of their religion.

The talk by the Spanish JW is not saying that the 1914 doctrine has been abandoned. JWs doctrinal system attach specific meaning to phrases or words. The speaker is saying that Jesus coming in his "Glorious Throne'" aspect in Matt 24 has been recently clarified. They have done that prior to this year. I can't recall the year this happened now, but it was like 2013 or thereabout that they made that change.

But on Jesus being a king in 1914 is still intact.

Jesus coming in his glorious throne' is now understood to be his judgment appearance during the Great Tribulation. Previously all these terms referred to 1914, but they recently shifted that aspect to GTrib. But his being king of God's kingdom is still in 1914.

The JW still wrongly think Jesus presence began in 1914. The appointed times of the nations still ends in 1914. That appointed time is what gave rise to the calculation that landed them to 1914. That 1914 is still the start of the Lord's day.

Many did misunderstand that speakers point.

Of course they may change the 1914 in the future. That will be a huge change. It will have huge implications if they change it. That doctrine do make them look unintelligent. It is a nonsense of a doctrine. I have written on that in one of my Ministry series on this board.


https://www.nairaland.com/7882892/ministry-jws-part-2-1914

MightySparrow:
Hello Sir. I am just seeing or reading your post on this series for the first time. I will look for the rest.

Go to my profile, you will see all in this series.

These people are just deluded In their conceit. Soon 'New Light' would overtake this belief. None of their doctrines or interpretations have been consistent I personally believe that the GB are either sensual, ignorant or dishonest in their interpretation of the scriptures. Years back, they argued that 'forever' has time limit. They have this bad idea that outside their organization, no one can understand the Bible. Yet they commit blunders.

The new understanding added to that belief that forever has limit. In fact the new light implies that everlasting destruction may not be everlasting. Making us to ask, will some of those who die at Armageddon also be resurrected?

I was arguing this same topic with MaximumSide some months back. His position was no one outside Jews had the gifts off the spirit. I asked him, what happened in Acts of Apostles? The record of the Bible are records of the exploits of the apostles not their converts. Himself as as soldier, I asked him, if the the instructors that teach a particular course were mentioned, does that mean no soldiers were produced? Does that mean none of the soldiers ever went to war?

Maxim doesn't know much about the teachings of JWs. His position on the only Jew miracle is not taught by the GB. That is Maxim's own understanding. Don't blame the GB for that one.

Their GB has lost it altogether. I was surprised to see some of their doctrines being jettisoned subtly.
When you point their errors to them, they suddenly become dishonest, defending the GB not the truth of the scriptures.

Holy Spirit is real as well as the girls.

What do you expect. It is there religion. Many are not interested in the truth of the bible. They are concerned about what there leader teach.

Jehovah's witnesses subscribe to cessationism. A theology that believes that spiritual gifts ceased in the first century.

Jehovah's witness hierarchy doesn't know for sure when the gift ceased. They deductively assume it ended in the first century. One of there books said:

"The gifts of the holy spirit were generally passed on to other Christians in the presence of the apostles, usually by the apostles placing their hands on fellow believers. (Acts 8:​18; 10:44-​46) It appears that those who received the gifts of the spirit from the apostles did not transfer them to others. (Acts 8:​5-7, 14-​17) To illustrate, a government official may issue a driver’s license to someone, but that person is not given the legal authority to issue a license to anyone else. Apparently, speaking in tongues ended with the death of the apostles and those who had personally received the gift from them."

The JW Governing Body do not believe that 1cor 13:8-11 spoke of the gift ending when "that which is perfect" come. Many JWs often quote that scripture, saying that " that which is perfect" is the bible, so when the bible was completed, the gift ended. I don't know how this tradition developed, but that is not what their publications teach. I agree with that truth that the gift will cease when that which is perfect comes, although many witnesses who use that argument don't know they are teaching something different from their church understanding.

Let's look at the Reasoning book of JWs, page 404. Let's first see why they threw away the fine proof in 1cor 13:8-11, after that, we will see when that which is perfect will come.

Why did they dismiss the clear proof of when the gift will end at 1cor 13:8-11?

The Reasoning book states:

"At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek teʹlei·on, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue."

We can see how clear scripture at 1cor 13 was sidelined by the Watchtower. They were already getting to the correct understanding before they shifted it cleverly.

It is clear from that scripture that the gift of prophecy, knowledge and speaking in tongues are all part of the spiritual gifts, when that of prophecy ends, so will the other gifts. When will they end? The book correctly said it's when Gods purposes all get fulfilled in God's kingdom. By then, that which is perfect or complete would have come, showing that there is no need for the gifts.

After wrongly saying that this scripture is not talking about when the gift will end, the JW leaders proceeded to contradict itself with another comment on the same scripture. Let's see

WT July 15, 1992

Since a babe acts on the basis of limited knowledge and physical development, it can be swayed to and fro, as though being rocked in a cradle. But a man is much more developed physically, has greater knowledge, and usually is not easily swayed. He has abolished childhood thoughts, attitudes, and methods. Similarly, after God’s earthly organization grew out of its infancy, He judged that it did not need the spirit’s gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Though present-day members of the congregation, now in its old age, also feel no need for such gifts, they are glad to serve God under the guidance of his spirit."

This article is commenting on verse 11. Here they now said that the scripture is stating when the gift will end, when the church grows out of infancy. They have thus detached the whole point of Paul out of context. Paul had just shown why the gift will cease in the future, because they have partial knowledge. Paul is still continuing with this point by using himself to give object lesson of what he had already said above, just as a babe have partial knowledge, so are those with these spiritual gifts, they will get the perfect knowledge in God's kingdom.

Let's read verses 11, 12;

When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child.  12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known."

Did you notice how verse 12 started? for now we see in hazy outline. This words are connecting the point about the child with another illustration of looking at a metal mirror. How can we be sure? Notice verse 12b. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.". We see here that Paul has again brought himself as the object lesson. It's all about the partial knowledge and it ending in the future, when true christians will see face-to-face as it were.

Surprisingly, the Watchtower, gives this verse 12 a different meaning from verse 11.

In the Insight book, under "face", this is said:

"Comparing the understanding of God’s purpose had by the early Christian congregation with the fuller understanding to be had upon receiving their heavenly reward, and then coming to comprehend the divine purpose in its entirety as prophecy is fulfilled, the apostle Paul said: “For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face.”​—1Co 13:12; compare 2Co 3:18; 4:6"

Here they believe that the verse 12 will fulfill in the future kingdom, but verse 11 fulfilled after the first century. It is however clear that all this is about the future. Perhaps they did this inconsistent interpretation so that there supposition that the gift ended with the death of the apostles will have a scriptural footing. This is contextually impossible.

Let's look at the theory of Watchtower that the gift was passed by the apostles laying of hands or during their presence. According to them, after they died, no one had the power to transmit such powers. True, the scriptures shows different places the gift was passed by laying hands of the apostles or during their presence. In fact, in one instance, Simon wanted to pay to have that ability.

But we shouldn't forget that the gift came first at Pentecost. God poured the spirit directly from heaven. Nothing prevents God from doing the same anytime He wishes. Secondly, it was not only the apostles that transmitted the gift. We read:

Acts 9
17 So An·a·niʹas went and entered the house, and he laid his hands on him and said: “Saul, brother, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road along which you were coming, has sent me so that you may recover sight and be filled with holy spirit.”

This is how Paul got his miraculous gifts. There is no other area showing that Paul met the apostles to receive the spirit. So it wasn't only the apostles that transmitted that gift. Our God can use anyone to transmit the gift or He pours the Spirit by Himself.

As to the fact that miraculous work should be happening now, is it not written in Joel, that God will pour His spirit in the last days? If we are in the last days, assuming the gift even ceased, why wouldn't God pour it out again in fulfillment of His word?

Secondly, Rev 11:3-9 spoke of two prophets of God that will come with great miraculous power. JWs says this refers to Rutherford and his cohorts, however, verse 7 says that when they FINISH there witnessing, the beast will make war with them and conquer them. Yet this conquering is said to have happened when Rutherford was still alive, and after the so called conquering, Rutherford was still preaching. When the prophecy clearly says, the conquering happened when they have FINISHED their witnessing. To confirm that the two witnesses did finish their witnessing, after they were resurrected, did they start preaching again? No. The account says they flew to heaven.

Thirdly, we can glean from Matt 7:21,22 that we should have true prophets today.

"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?"

Speaking about people with miraculous gifts, Jesus says, not everyone. By saying not everyone, Jesus implies that some miraculous workers will genuinely call out to him when he comes back. Some will genuinely say they performed healing in his name and he will not deny them. Is it not logical however, to say that if Jesus is warning about false prophet, it shows that there MUST be true ones? If not, the word " false" makes no meaning.

In summary, there is no scriptural support for cessationism.

Emusan:
They're now coming back to their senses that Watchtower shouldn't judge others as they might not be the only true followers of Christ as they usually claim.

They are gradually coming up. Of course there are more steps they need to get there.

MaxInDHouse:
Of course judgment is in God's hands but we know that whoever willfully oppose God's word will not be resurrected.
So stop deceiving yourself!

You just agreed with what I said which you previously didn't understand. Yet you say I should stop deceiving myself. Only you!

Remember we are discussing what the Annual Meeting point is. As to what the scriptures say about who will be resurrected, I said it in the op.

Emusan:
What happened at the annual meeting?

There GB says they should leave the judging aspect to Jesus.

MaxInDHouse:
So in a nutshell what those scriptures says are not to be practiced shey?

Check the response I gave.

MaxInDHouse:
You only seek approval for what you want instead of listening attentively to gain insight.



If someone has never had the chance one on one discussion with God's organization such a person will be given a fair chance after the destruction of the wicked people but if you've gotten the sense of what God's organization is doing yet you chose to sit on the fence them i'm sorry for you!

You didn't learn anything from the broadcast.

MaxInDHouse:
You're just funny walahi talahi!

So because we said some might not even have had the opportunity to gain insight so as to be saved that means even people opposing God's organization conscientiously can also enter the kingdom of our God shey?

Continue deceiving yourself!

What we're saying is this:

Jesus preached for so many years and the thief have had about him but then he's not sure if Jesus is the promised Christ so while still contemplating on what to do with Jesus' case he was caught and sentenced to death only for him to meet the same Jesus on the torture stake. With his state of mind he has condemned himself already knowing fully well that he misused his opportunity of becoming one of Jesus' disciples but now that all hope is lost he doesn't know how to approach the man of his dream not until his cohort asked Jesus to perform his usual miracles that this heartbroken sinner raised his voice and rebuked his fellow culprit.

From what happened there are both sinners on the same page?

That's what we are saying.

Many doesn't understand what Noah was saying back then not until the rain began and destroyed all of them. God will not continue being wrathful with those ignorant ones so on the day of resurrection they will be given the opportunity to see Noah in Paradise you can imagine how they will humbly kiss his feet and readily do whatever that righteous man tells them afterwards. But what about those making jest of Noah and even insulting him for the work he was doing?

Maybe you didn't understand the broadcast. The point of the broadcast is that your GB don't know. Yes, even about those in Babylon the Great that conscientiously oppose your organization. They don't know even if those ones will be resurrected. Maybe you should go and rewatch it. Geoffrey Jackson's last talk advise that you should preach and leave out the judgment aspect for God and Jesus.

The thought the GB has is that one can only be destroyed or die everlastingly if he has received the FULL opportunity to join your Organization. Now how much teaching, preaching shows that one has gotten that full opportunity? There answer; they don't know. Even if those people die during the GT, they say they don't know if they will be resurrected. No one can establish if they have got the full opportunity from Jehovah's standpoint to change.

The whole point of the Broadcast is that they don't know who will or who will not be resurrected.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy we're both saying the same thing now so from your own point of view JW's teachings doesn't stop sincere ones among them from having salvation but from the fact i have you (not those who never met JWs before) can't see God's kingdom if you fail to become one of JWs now!

I know you won't like this but that's the bitter truth.


Jesus explained that those who reject the message of his disciples are doomed {Matthew 10:14-15} and today over 41,000 different religions are claiming Christians with contracting teachings and conflicting doctrines so one may conclude that due to all these confusion God may not judge based on the things we read in the scriptures but then Jesus commanded his own disciples to have LOVE among themselves just as he had for them {John 15:12} he also commanded them to LOVE their neighbours as themselves {Mark 12:31} and to LOVE and pray for those who are looking for ways to hurt them! Luke 6:27-28
He taught them that if what they're practicing is according to his teachings all of them will treat one another like one family {Mark 10:29-30} which is in harmony with what God's servants prophesied before Jesus {Isaiah 2:2-4 & Micah 4:1-3} the one and only person whose wise counsel will make this possible in midst of imperfect humans of different races is the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} that's why Jesus could confidently proclaim any group of people or organization that fulfilled this task as living WITNESSES of his earthly mission! Act 1:8

So whoever has SEEN any group of people SUCCESSFULLY doing this thing but chose to always speak against them is no longer speaking against those imperfect humans but against the SPIRIT mobilizing them to do the will of God. Matthew 12:31-32

The only thing that could save you now is if you can present a better performing group with regards to the doing of God's will failure to do so means you're an enemy of the Prince whose subjects are working out peace globally among men of goodwill so extermination is waiting for you! Luke 19:27

I told you I will remind you this your post in January 2024. Remember my point, that salvation should be left to Jesus.

Now after watching the Annual Meeting, how far?

MaxInDHouse:
Explain what those scriptures are saying and the organization that's practicing it if not what JWs are doing?

I have responded to them in the op

During the 2023 Annual Meeting of Jehovah's witnesses, especially the part 2, two talks by David Splane and Geoffrey Jackson revealed the new understanding JWs now have about the fate of the Sodomites, those in Noah's day, those who live from now until before Armageddon. In all, their conclusion is that they don't know, in other words, they are not dogmatic about their fate. These will mean that they don't even know the fate of those in Babylon the Great, and in fact all who are not JWs, including those they call apostates. All these persons might as well come up to meet them in their paradise earth.

Why has JWs landed themselves into this state of confusion? There are two doctrinal errors that I have noticed caused this. As it is said, one theological error, leads to another.

The confusion comes because of their misunderstanding of the timing of the Judgment Day/White Throne Judgment and what will happen during the thousand year reign of Christ.

Let's take it one at a time.

1. Timing of the Judgment Day:

The JWs teach that the judgment day recorded at Rev 20:13-15; John 5:28,29 will all occur during the thousand year reign of Christ. During that time, according to JW, a resurrection will occur.

In a Watchtower article, of February 1, 1974, it says:

"...The context thus shows that the general resurrection of the dead takes place after the “former heaven and the former earth” pass away. When does this take place? According to 2 Peter 3:10, the former heavens and earth are to pass away in “Jehovah’s day.” That day, according to 2 Pe 3 verses 3 through 6, will catch ridiculers unprepared, as did the flood of Noah’s day, and therefore precedes the thousand-year reign of Christ."

In other words, after the destruction at Armageddon, the next stage is the thousand year reign of Christ. Armageddon, according to them, will destroy the figurative heaven and earth. This will usher in the Millennial reign. This millennial reign is seen by JWs as paradise like the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned. So it's very important time for any to inherit.

Seeing that these paradise is a place of happiness, that this paradise is God's kingdom, the problem then is, John 5:28,29 and Rev 20:13-15, shows that those that will be available during these period are not only the righteous, but also the unrighteous will be there. (Compare also Acts 24:15). Who then are these unrighteous ones? That is the bone of contention. They try to ascertain whom these are by checking what the bible says about Shoel/Hades, laid to rest with ancestors etc. All those captured by these expressions are seen to merit a resurrection into the Millennial reign. They also posit previously that those who died during the flood, or died in Sodom won't be raised. But now, they use Matt 11:23,24 to show that some in Sodom and in Noah's day might be resurrected to be in paradise.

So, a faithful JWs will be going into paradise, not to enjoy, but to live with wicked persons and then go through the work of preaching to them as they do today. What will help them reconcile this confusion?

The judgment mention at Rev 20:11-15 will not happen during the thousand year reign of Christ. This is made clear at Rev 20;4,5. It says:

And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."

What do we learn here:

The righteous church will rise to heaven in the first resurrection. This church will reign with Christ for a thousand year. Who will they reign over?

After Satan is cast into abyss, see what Verse 3 says:
"so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

There will be people, the nations, that will remain to be ruled by the church, the Saints. During this period of thousand years, the second resurrection won't occur. That is why verse 5 says the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. After the thousand years however, what will happen?

Rev 20:7-10 shows exactly what will happen. Satan will be released, he will go out to tempt people. He will gain many, and they will advance towards the beloved city, but finally, fire from heaven will kill then off and Satan will be hurled into the lake of fire. After these, which will take considerable time, verse 11-15 then starts to fulfill. All the dead that weren't raised during the first resurrection will now be resurrected and to be judged according to their deeds.

Why then did the JWs start to think that this event will occur immediately after Armageddon? The article quoted above gave the reason, because Rev 20:11 says before the White Throne Judge, "the heaven and earth fled" .

They understand this to mean when the present world is destroyed. But that doesn't have to be a hinderance, first, as at the time this verse 11 is under fulfillment, the recent world that fled is the one that Satan ruled after he was released from Abyss. This could be the heaven and earth being referred to. Secondly, the account didn't say that it was immediately the judge came that this heaven and earth fled. It could just be saying that it was God that caused the heaven and earth to flee during Armageddon, not meaning that it fled when he showed up. Thirdly, that view of the judgment goes against the sequence of occurrence found from verse 1-10. In fact verses 4 and 5 shows how illogical such reasoning is.

2. How People Will Be Judged:

One of the confusions JWs run into is how the wicked will be judged during the thousand year reign.

Rev 20:11-15 shows that people will be judged from the scrolls opened according to their deeds. JWs believe that these deeds won't be the deeds these persons did in their former life. But the one they will do during the millenium. Why believe that? They feel that Rom 6:7 cancels ones' sin when he dies. So he will be coming into the millennium with clean slate as it were. But is that correct?

Let's see one of the scriptures quoted by David Splane during the Annual Meeting. See how it handles this problem. Matt 11

But I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Siʹdon on Judgment Day than for you.  23 And you, Ca·perʹna·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to the Grave you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day.  24 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

Notice that Capernaum showed lack of faith in Jesus. But Jesus is not saying that the judgment for their unbelief will be faced at that time when they die. No. but that they would face judgement for their unbelief during the judgement. At that time people of Tyre will still be facing there's.

In other words, when those in Capernaum is resurrected, they will be judged according to the actions they displayed while Jesus and his disciples preached during the first century.

Jesus brought out that same point at Matt 12. It says:

"Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell you that men will render an account on Judgment Day for every unprofitable saying that they speak; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

When will these people pay for what they speak against Jesus? Verse 36 says, during the Judgment Day.

People Will be judged individually according to what they do NOW, not future. It is to be noted that Rom 6:7 is not even talking about literal death, but spiritual one. He who dies to his former sin has been forgiven of it. Simple. That is the context. You don't have to create roadblock for yourself over that.

Jesus words at John 5:29 carry the same meaning. .

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So you need to beware of this new teaching. They will make you think that if you misbehave now, God will give you another chance of a thousand years in paradise to change. That is a mirage. It doesn't exist. What you do now will be judged in the Judgement Day after the thousand year reign of Christ. And note that it will be more endurable for Sodom during that judgment than for you. God might understand the rebellion of sodomites considering the period of time they lived in, but one who lived now that the gospel is available in your finger tips, I wonder how you will defend your actions before God that time. Repent, Repent, Repent Now.

MaxInDHouse:
For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves" 1 Corinthians 5:12-13
Please who are to do this JUDGING in the absence of a JUDICIAL COMMITTEE?


If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works! 2John 10-11
Apostle John said we must stop talking or greeting disfellowshiped ones.


Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. 1Corinthians 1:10
Paul explained that whoever doesn't agree with the oneness we shared shouldn't be viewed as a brother anymore:
"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them" Romans 16:17


We based everything on the scriptures just as the first century Christians adhere strictly to the teachings of those taking the lead among them! Act 2:42; Hebrews 13:17

May you have PEACE!

Out of context response. Try again