₦airaland Forum

NL1960,
I'm sorry but that's one terrible looking house.
Its like a drawing by a mischievous kindergarten pupil

There was no crash landing. It could be called a precautionary landing.
Hydraulic fluid loss happens a lot without warning due a broken seal.
Built-in redundancy systems back up the failed system. For example, the
aircraft electrical system could be used in place of the hydraulic system to
assist in achieving the required function.
Gravity could also be employed to drop the landing gear after a manual release
of its uplocks.

manny4life: I totally agree with you that CRM is important but coming from pilot who make cockpit errors like the Colgan pilot who was correcting stall wrongly, you see it's all theories. Some pilots are very clueless, and not assertive as you would think..

Of course some pilots are more skilled than others. As a matter of fact methinks flying is a talent.
If you don't have the natural flair for it, its gonna be a struggle all through your career. When all
is going well, anyone can fly, its the onset of an emergency that sets the boys apart from the men.

[quote author=manny4life]PPL (SE/ME + IR)

No I'm not in Nigeria...

I still have to complete CPL although I'm gradually getting there with my hours after which I have to complete ME Commercial, then add on CFI and CFII and hopefully I'm ready.

No I haven't flown helicopters..[/quote

Goodluck and best wishes.

manny4life: Exactly, that would be the rule of thumb, but how does a FO know his Captain is incapacitated and actually aware of his environ? Seniority plays a role in the cockpit.. You heard about the UPS FLIGHT that crashed in Dubai I believe, it was the overriding decision of the tired Captain that led to their demise. How about Colgan 3407? The FO knew what was going on but couldn't do much because his captain had the controls, though fatigued played its role, FO couldn't do much.

That is the essence of CRM, Crew Resource Management. Crew are trained to recognize incapacitation. The Captain could also be disorientated. As a good FO, you tell your Capt that you "have controls". A good Capt will acknowledge "You have controls" The FO becomes the pilot flying until the termination of the flight or the Capt returns to normalcy.
The examples given above prompted the industry to give relevant training to lower this AUTHORITY GRADIENT which renders an FO a mere
onlooker in the cockpit. He must be ASSERTIVE in the interest of ALL.

manny4life: I actually have my license to fly...

I am not a Google expert, heck if I had money, I want to complete all my ratings and be ready to go commercial.

Would that be a PPL? Are you in Nigeria? You like to fly helicopters?

tayo4ng: If it were to be in America the Aviation minister ought to have voluntarily resign by now.

You may be right, but does that guarantee things will improve with a replacement minister.
Nigeria is plagued by vices we all have some contribution towards, its just that when it comes
to Aviation, the result is CRASH!!!!!!!
Do you remember electricity, roads, water, education, health, police........

manny4life: Yes, the AOM is totally different from the SOP's, more than likely, the SOP's was adopted from the AOM, however, the AOM does have optional specifications. In some cases, some AOM's usually say " NOT TO BE ADOPTED FOR REAL WORD USE FOR FLIGHT PLANNING", so airline and aviation experts usually come up with their own standards which in reality may or may not be exact as AOM. For instance, takeoff speeds may differ, fuel consumption or saving may differ, etc. it doesn't mean "erring on safe margin".

Is manny4life a pilot??
Or a google expert

manny4life: 1. Like I stated, no be me talk am... Look at the post below



2. Well wouldn't that be a distraction to your protocol? So it still boils down to pilot error because he ended up rotating at a WRONG SPEED. Reason why you see the other pilot calls out the speed.

3. The warning that came on was the take off flaps setting" indicating that flaps was in wrong position

4/5/6 === > oh well

I believe there was some sought of breakdown in communication between both, however, some airlines forbid the FO to take over an aircraft particularly where the Captain is the one flying. They would ONLY do such if the Captain is incapacitated...

No airline will forbid the FO from taking over controls from the Captain if his situational awareness is in doubt. Incapacitation is a good example.
There are others. The Captain will do the thanking after and passenger lives saved.

anyaekekehinde: wait ooo, my sister, all the previous plane mishap that has happend in nigeria, were all the people or organisations you mentioned not there when they were analysing their respective black boxes, because we dont normaly hear anything about black box report ooo, how come about this one now. Or have we just suddenly changed to do things right, infact this is the quickest black box information recovery in the history of nigeria and is coming from Stella oduah's instituted AIB... My sister you dont know nigerians

Hold on my brother, you can find many reports as published on their website
]http://www.aib.gov.ng

manny4life: Not really. The reason why I said they don't have anything to do with it takeoff because it's optional, granted that it's incorporated into some airline SOP's, and everything you said is VERY CORRECT, depending on each scenarios, it's optional. That is why we're waiting on the SOP for Associated Airlines to determine if it was incorporated in it or not.

Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) are designed by airlines to create a uniform operating environment for their crew. SOPs cannot take the place of the Aircraft Operations Manual (AOM) where the aircraft manufacturer states how the aircraft is meant to be operated and its limitations. Any departure from the AOM or Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) is to err on the safer margin.

[quote author=ndu_chucks]I think we all agree that not engaging the flap in of itself is not enough to cause a crash, all other things being equal. We are told that the crew decided not to use the flap during takeoff. It seems to me as if the real cause of the crash is the following as noted in the AIB report:

“Approximately three seconds after ‘power is set’ call, the First Officer noted that the aircraft was moving slowly."

I submit that the aircraft was moving slowly and could not attain enough lift for successful takeoff. Additionally, the condition of the aircraft made abortion impossible. The responsible parties in my mind, are those responsible for air safety.

If you can show us that this aircraft would have successfully taken of if the pilot had used the flap, then I'm all ears.

BTW: The protocol you posted up there is applicable when flap is used. Using flap for takeoff is not mandatory in this case, else AIB would have screamed pilot irresponsibility right away![/quote]Perhaps the airplane was certified for take off without flaps especially at high take off weights/speeds, I wouldn't know. You are right about that likelihood that AIB wouldn't have spared the Captain with a precise indictment. But come to think of it, that aircraft, being a propeller driven one ought to have done some "power checks" at the holding point prior to lining up on the runway for take off.
That is the procedure designed to warn the pilots of any potential power problems during the take off.
However the engine instruments in the panel should also have indicated low torque at the commencement of the take off roll.
May the souls of the departed rest in peace.

manny4life: The pilot not extending flaps wasn't the cause, at least I will believe, what I'm saying is that flaps does help @ lower speeds, so if you would rotate at 135kts using 8degs flaps, without flaps, it has to be about 160kts.

Look, bottom line is that the pilot DID NOT have enough power to generate lift...PERIOD. Heck his FO never called out Vr, so why did he rotate when he didn't hear the call out speed? According to the same report, they could gather that he rotated at about 95kts which falls below the guidelines for Vr at 125ktas. So yes, when he rotated, there wasn't enough lift to hold the aircraft, he STALLED.

Again, flaps has nothing to do with takeoff, flaps ONLY helps increasing lift @ slower speed (before/during takeoff roll), that is what your taught in flight school.

You are contradicting issues. Flaps have much to do with take off. Yes, they help to increase lift at low speed. That is the lift required for lift off.
You don't have an infinite runway length so you need to use the flaps to get off the ground early enough. Your take off speed becomes a factor of the all up weight of the aircraft at the time, the ambient temperature, the field altitude and the surface wind direction and speed.

[quote author=ndu_chucks]I know too much about our people to believe what we are told, hook, line, and sinker. The first thing which should have been established is whether or not the aircraft was airworthy. Do you know why we have not yet been shown any evidence of the aircraft's airworthiness? Its because the evidence does not exist.

This AIB report is designed for people like you to reach the conclusions which you are reaching, so their mission is accomplished. I refuse to be gullible enough to fall for their explanation so soon.If you have any evidence that the aircraft did not have mechanical issues which made both takeoff and the abortion of the takeoff impossible, lets hear it.

Nwanne m, this unfortunate mishap has become politicized to the extent that one must shine his eyes well well. The easiest thing to do is to lie against dead pilots. These people are shameless, in my view.[/quote]The mistrust for our government is understood. Accident investigations are difficult to falsify because they go through many
hands. The country of manufacture Brazil will have their representatives, so will the aircraft manufacturers Embraer, the ICAO
officials are also interested, the Pilots Association are represented, the Airline officials must monitor, Insurance companies are
watching, the manufacturer of the testing equipment guard their products integrity jealously etc.

@manny4life
1. Radar couldn't have known the rotation speed. Neither would the "propeller testing". Perhaps the FDR
Do you know the rotation speed and what guideline?
2. Even if your FO doesn't call rotate, do you abort take off? No you don't.
3. Take off warning should have been evaluated and if found not to be a nuisance warning, the take off should have been aborted.
4. The Captain was likely to be "frozen" during the take off roll, rendering his judgements very poor.
5. Same as number 4
6. Same as number 4
The FO should have taken over controls from the Captain and aborted the flight. That's the teaching of Crew Resource Management.
The Captain was obviously incapacitated for some reason. However, it is common for FOs not to want to ruffle the feathers of their
Captains due the seniority ranking and authority gradient.

manny4life and agbameta, you both are merely posturing
like you have aviation knowledge.
thankfully, some of us know u are just googling all over the subjects

citizenisb

Dana Air flight 356 from Abuja to Lagos which landed miraculously at 7:30pm at MM2 airport Lagos after its right engine was lost mid air 30 minutes to Lagos. Luckily for the passengers the solo engine was able to manage a safe landing unlike the IJU Dana Plane which lost both engines and crashed.

It's a pity these Indians continue to play with the lives of innocent Nigerians but nemesis will catch up with them one day!!!

3 Likes

Was there any other confirmation than your personal observation about the engine malfunction?

For me:
The joy in drinking is the pissing

Having a good airport is symptomatic of having developed
infrastructure, growth and economy. Nigeria only has a
desperately self seeking citizenry to boast of today.

mufutau55: Oga Brabus.. what is this for again?. I thought you have dug two of those previously..
Or is that for that Outdoor Living Space under construction?

Update.. Now I get it.. Do you mean a real Grave site like in for dead? As narrated in your "Outdoor Living Space" above?
If so, Wow!

Hajji Mufutau

Brabus should please answer Hajji Muftau's question, we are also curious!!!

Design my foot!!!!

What I see in the picture is comparable to a KIT CAR.

A kit car, also known as a "component car", is an automobile that is available as a set of parts that a manufacturer sells and the buyer then assembles into a car themselves. Usually, all of the major mechanical systems such as the engine and transmission are supplied along with the body.

This should not be confused with 'hand built cars' which are typically built from scratch by an individual.

REPLACE "CAR" with "HELICOPTER" and you will get the JOKE of an "INVENTION"

Brabus can sell ice to Mr. Eskimo

brabus: Beautiful Fulani girls from the neighbourhood...

Beautiful girls... I used to date one of them when I was ABU in Zaria in the 70's but then I was too young to be even thinking of marriage, so I lost her. I everly regretted it; because she was a nice girl and a marrying kind.

Hajji Mufutau

Is it me, or, ....I just don't get this.

The bigger their churches, the worse societal ills become.
The "white man" who believes not in God lives in "paradise".

The swimming pool is odd in that virgin forest.
Foreign matter will be a problem for maintenance.

Arse lickers plenty here o

Sorry Spyder 880, but don't go yet. Some have been asking why preliminary
studies were not made before the digging when you suddenly discovered water.
Would you like to say why or that would be spoiling your fine reputation here.

In as much as we should not allow the British to get away with it,
there was cause to suspect the news was not well interpreted about
the 3000 pounds bond. Mr Ambassador may as well be sincere that it
will be directed at the so called high risk group.
On the bright side of the bargain is the knowledge than rather getting
an outright refusal of visa, you can pay the bond and get a refund as
long as your intentions for travel are like you state in your application form.

This praise singing reminds one of the usual motivating factor behind such.
I hope im wrong .

The Good
Jamesqu
gtrust
jaydacorsair
gabbytabby

The Bad
diordaves
brabus

The Ugly
chekitaut
segcy.moore

NAMA boss said in a statement that the aircraft in
question is actually a junk one belonging to Late
Apostle Gabriel Oduyemi of Bethel Ministries and
had long been parked at a NAMA facility up till
Wednesday night when it was eventually removed. The aircraft was actually released to Captain
M.J.Ekehinde who will be using it for educational
purposes in Badagry, Lagos

Capt named above is Omotola's husband

Shocking revelations