₦airaland Forum

@m_nwankwo,

Thanks for that clarification.

JJYOU:
IT IS LIKE GRAIL MESSAGE IS IN VOGUE AGAIN.

Hi JJYou,

This topic is not to propagate a particular message, I don't know anything about Grail message and I'm not a promoter of it, but this does not necessarily mean that the possibility of reincarnation can be ignored when addressing "why we are here on earth and how do we get back to God"

This is not about Grail message but truth can come from anywhere, it knows no boundary

Thanks & God bless you.

m_nwankwo:
@Sarmy,

Thanks for the excerpts you quoted from a book explainig reincarnation. I do not agree with everything said therein. Stay blessed.

Hi m_nwankwo,
please kindly highlight the area you disagree with. I wish to know more on this concept.

n the worlds that are in after life, that is, those worlds where the soul goes when it leaves the physical body by death, their are several planes and each of these planes is substantially larger than our physical earth. Hell for instance is one of those planes. Had men not sinned, then they will not stay much in these planes but rather move towards the kingdom of God, that is heaven. That means that these planes would have been depopulated of human spirits long time ago since they would have found theire way back to paradise. Unfortunately sin has entrapped billions of human spirits in these after world planes expecially the dark regions(hell). It is human spirts from these dark regions that are responsible for the increase and continual increase in the populationof our physical earth. This is because all roads lead to earth for two specific reasons:

First had men not become immoral, these dark souls will not have a bridge that catapults them to the physical earth. T[b]he reason is that the immorarity of our women encouraged by men have provided a bridge to these dark spheres such that these dark souls encourage women by radiations to engage in immoral sexual union and thus provide an opportunity for these dark souls to incarnate[/b]. Thus more than half of the present inhabitants of our earth do not belong here but came from dark sheres including hell. Thus they bring with them activities that are prevalent in the dark sphere and that is the reason for so much evil on earth.

I will appreciate more information on the above highlighted
- Are people coming back from hell to earth?
- How has the immorality of women encouraged by men provides opportunity for reincarnation?

KunleOshob:
If every new baby is coming with an old soul i.e is being re-incarnated how come the world's poplation keeps growing at an exponential rate?? Let's even assume re-incarnation is possible howodes it account for the millions of additional souls being added to the earth's population every day. Is population growth not enough evidence that new souls are being created?

Re-incarnation may not neccessarily mean that new souls will not be created by God if the need arises. 2ndly, billions of souls could have been created by God but all may not have manifested yet in this physical realm.

@m_nwankwo

m_nwankwo:
L, Reincarnation was origiannly intended to help human spirits mature.

Thanks, it seems reincarnation is an empowering concept that could help to understand WHY WE ARE HERE and how we can escape this physical realm to a more glorious home. It also absolves God from most of the ills in this world; as it helps to understand why there are seemingly prevalent injustices in the world, which has made some to think either there is no God or He’s possibly unjust.

Below is an excerpt from a book which also explains this concept a bit further.


"By acquiring a long-term perspective (re-incarnation), you will also be able to answer one of the fundamental questions of life, a question that neither materialistic science nor traditional Christianity can answer. The essence of this question is why there seems to be such injustice in the world and why God seems to favor some people and condemn others to a life of suffering. For example, some children are born with immense physical or psychological handicaps while others are born with more than they need. Some people always strive to do the right thing, but they still get a terminal illness while others violate the laws of both God and man yet – or so it seems – get away with it.

Science has no answer other than saying life is a game of chance, and Christianity has no answer other than saying it is God’s will and that the Lord works in mysterious ways. Yet a logical answer is available by contemplating the consequences of the fact that you are a spiritual being that can exist independently of the physical body. You were created in the spiritual realm and the Conscious You then descended into your physical body. As a vehicle for acting in the material world and as an interface between the Conscious You and the physical body, your identity body, your mental body and your emotional body was created. Most spiritual teachings on the planet say that your being, can survive the death of the physical body and continue an existence in the spiritual realm. Yet logically, there is no reason why your being could not have existed in the spiritual realm before you descended into your physical body.
This leads to the logical conclusion that – over time – your conscious self has descended into more than one physical body, meaning that your journey on planet Earth goes back hundreds or thousands of years. This explains both of the questions raised above. If you have incarnated many times in various situations, you have used your co-creative abilities to set in motion certain causes, and in this lifetime you are experiencing the effects. This is what Eastern religions call karma, and it is simply the return of an energy impulse that was sent out by you in a previous lifetime. Jesus expressed this when he told people to do unto others as they want others to do to them. What you do to others will eventually come back to you because the cosmic mirror will return to you what you send out

If a child is born with an illness, the cause of that illness was created by the person in previous lifetimes. While this might seem harsh, it is an empowering concept. If the child’s illness was the result of a game of chance or the will of an unjust God, there would be no way for the child to ever improve its life. Yet if the situation is the result of choices made by the child in a previous lifetime, then the person can change the causes that were set in motion and thereby overcome the adverse effects.

This also explains why it can take some time before you see major results from your efforts to improve your life by working with your mind. You can now see that i[b]n order to completely purify the levels of your mind, you must also resolve the limitations created in past lifetimes. [/b]

Thanks

m_nwankwo:
Spirits came into existence when God created the spiritual world. The birth of man on earth is when this spirit that has already been in existence [b]incarnates [/b]in a physical body. Thus their is spiritual creation from which the spirit originated and material creation from which our physical bodies originated. Spiritual creation was created first and only later did material creation came into existence. Your sensing is closer to the truth. Thus the human body was "created" for an already existing spirit. The birth of man or what people often refer as creation of man is when the preexisting spirt incarnated in a physical body for the first time. That happened millions of years ago.

I beleive in incarnation but I think many christians are against this subject

Bible says, "it's appointed for one to die once after which is the judgement" what do you have to say about that?

Yes, their is a pre-birth life. It is worlds where souls experience until they are due for re-incarnation on earth. It is also the same world where souls go after earthly death. On earth, birth and death are the two poles of our existence. Their is life after death and their is life before birth.

What's the purpose of coming back to this life, who makes that decision and why? One might have preferred not to come back to this life if the choice exists

The soul of the child returns to the after life world to continue experiencing until an opportunity for reincarnation arises. The lengh of time between each incarnation varies with each soul and is influenced by such factors as[b] spiritual maturity[/b], spirtual status of the earth, earthly propensities, end time, etc. Every person on earth today have been on earth several times before. Although many cannot consciously look back at their former existence, a careful look at their personality, their circumstances and their asscociations on earth will give them some pointer that they have been here before. Stay blessed!

Could it have been that only those yet to be matured spiritually are the ones re-incarnating and those required here for special assignments, but can we back this up in the bible?

KunleOshob:
This knowledge can then be passed down and developed by succesive generations. Today God as already set us on the right part by revealing certain truths and technologies to our fore fathers. WHich as been passed on to us. What we don't know that seems to be complex is not relevant to us for now. I am sure when we as human beings transform to the life beyond, these unknown complex truths would be revealed to us as in their simplicity as well.

There are some complex truths relevant to our present life e.g

KunleOshob:
our soul is eternal and we are created to be like God.

If our soul is eternal, when did it start to exist? for example, when the first man was created, was that the time his spirit and soul started to exist?

Could it be that at creation, a body was created for an already existing spirit?

When a new baby is born, when was the spirit and soul of this baby created?

Is there a pre-birth life of the baby?

What happens to the spirit and the soul of a baby that died a week old?

When we clearly understand where we are coming from and why we are here, then can we be optimistic about the future

KunleOshob:
Well i believe we are here for a purpose, though there are several opinions it is my belief that God created man for a greater calling beyong this our planet. Life on earth is meant to prepare us individually and collectively (the human race) for a greater destiny which as not yet been revealed to us. The logic to this statement is that God created man in his image and likeness with abilities to be a god. ( here are several pointers to this in the bible though most churches are silent on it). The question then arises: why did God create man to belike him? Since our soul is eternal and we are created to be like God you can then begin to imagine why God created us and placed us on this earth. Another way of looking at it is that God is breeding growing a large army of "gods" whose future role is to dominate the universe with him just as we dominate the earth today.

In essence, we are here for a yet to be revealed greater destiny, so life is like a journey to a yet to be revealed end, but if yet to be revealed how do we work towards it?

We are here to function as gods, with ability to create both good and bad events, reason why evil abound, gods lost their true identity, they began to operate low frequency energies like greed, hatred, covetousness, murder etc. Everyone must realise why they are here, it's time for majority to start operating high frequency energies like love so as to be part of the greater destiny.


So also life is like a training camp for a future home

Thanks for that.

A complex product requires the owner’s manual and a contact person so as to maximize its benefits.

Lack of the owner’s manual and a contact person may results in frustration trying to use the complex product.

Is Life a complex product?

Is there a manual for it?

Is there a contact person?

How may we use this product or how do we escape

3rd Theory

, This school of thought is a very complex one. Here, we must learn, experiment, compete, dominate, overcome, replenish, suceed, and etc. people see life as a race, only few are getting somewhere, some are crawling and very few are running (alot of people are watching)

If you must run well, you have to learn how, life is full of mysteries, wisdom is a principal thing, with all thy gettings you must get understanding, the more you learn, the more you see the need to learn.

How do we escape, from what and why? OK, where do we escape to?


If you understand this line of thought, please kindly share yours

1st theory:- John 15:1-8 In as much as we continue to think we are separate from each other, love and harmony may be far-fetched, everyone must function as part of each other in order to fulfill the ultimate plan of our maker. His Kingdom on earth may tarry until we learn how to appreciate one another and including our differences.

2nd theory: - Gen 50:15-21 In every adversity, there is equivalent or greater benefit. This theory is to enable us see many of the challenges of life as drama which may eventually turn out to be for happy ending e.g. in the case of Joseph and his brothers, the drama included both evil and good but eventually there was a happy ending (Such is life), life is meant for His pleasure?

3rd theory:- Gen 2, 3: This theory says that life exist before birth, and when we die we return back to our source only when we have learnt from our mistaken identity, thinking that we are separate from our maker is the source every problem, until we regain our true identity, earthly  life experience continues.

Why are we here and how do we escape?

This is a fundamental question we must ask as we seek to enjoy life rather than becoming a victim of it

Every seeker of knowledge would want to find out why we exist in this world and how to escape from every predicament

If you are living a happy life, you may view life as interesting, but someone going through hell here on earth would prefer not to have being born e.g a child born blind or born into a war torn country with no sure hope of escape.

Is life vanity upon vanity or is there a satisfactory explanation as to why we are here.

Do you agree or disagree with any of the following or do you have more to add, please kindly share what you believe and let your explanation be practical to other faiths

[list]
[li]Life is like a vehicle, we are parts of the vehicle, our Maker is the one driving. He has an objective, getting there requires that we all function according to His specification. Any part failing to function as required may be scraped or re-cycled

[/li]

[li]Life is like a drama, our Maker is the script writer, and we are all playing our part in this movie called life. Anyone failing to play role as required may be asked to rerun or kept in the waiting room for the after-show

[/li]

[li]Life is like a school, where we are expected to gain the required knowledge to ascend back to our Source. Anyone failing to meet the minimum requirement may not ascend back until matured enough to do so

[/li]

[/list]

Big question: - what if someone preferred not to have been part of this life due to his/her present predicament, could there have been a choice, to be part or not to be? Someone please help me out.

@Pilgrim
My sister, no matter how I argue those points, you will hardly agree. Some of the answers you gave did not address the issues I raised, even earlier. I know you have tried.

I pray God will continue to grant us more wisdom to see His will, it's all about Him not about us, may His will be done.

Have a nice weekend

pilgrim.1:
Simply, just as you will find the position of such matters of the Law as circumcision and sabbath and holy days and observances of times - all matters that are discouraged as Christian practices, you will not find a single verse in the NT discountenancing TITHES. I have given that challenge out, and I'm still waiting for answers from those who have been making such disavowals. You will not find anywhere in the NT where tithes were condemned - NOT ONE! If you find that verse, please help us quote it directly.

Apostles needed not to against tithe DIRECTLY since it was no issue, they did not teach it as a subject, they were not asking early Christians tithes, and definitely you can’t expect both the Christian Gentiles and the Jews to be practicing it.

Was there any teaching on giving (YES) but different from the way average Jewish Christian of that time will understand TITHE

Was there any direct teaching on tithe (NO), how can we assume Christian Gentiles were practicing what they were not taught?

Why would the Apostles condemn what no Christian of that time was practicing?

Shalom

pilgrim.1:
I did not make for a specific figure - at least you can bear me witness on that. Rather, I noted the "proportion" and asked that any figure or percentage you mentioned would have a name - whereas, it was not the "name" that was important, but rather the principle behind it. I know this is difficult to understand, but when we look strictly at the Levitical priesthood law where we find a commandment for tithing, isn't it obvious that the total value of the tithes of Israel was beyond 10% No, I'm not dragging us back, but when you see this matter, you come to wonder that the tithies for the year of tithing added to all the other tithes was not merely 10% - are we together on this?

I agree with the principle 100% but would rather not use the name (TITHE) unless God attach importance to it, from your quote above, it seems it's not about the name but the principle. Then why do we still need to use the name?

If you have said that 10% is a portion, what name do you give that?

Since it's not all about 10% as you said but a proportion, is it not better to use a more neutral name like offering or giving just done by the Apostles

One answer I have for you: what did Paul mean by "in proportion to" - in proportion to what? What are people measuring it to? Why should he even give us this idea that people should set anything aside in proportion to anything (income, wages, etc) - why even go there at all?

A proportion from that passage simply means a portion of something, part of something, not exactly 10% it could be more it could be less.

1 Corinthians 16:2 (Contemporary English Version)
2That is, each Sunday each of you must put aside part of what you have earned. If you do this, you won't have to take up a collection when I come.

Best regards

@Pilgrim

I saw the verse before I asked - and that was because I wanted you to think about where the apostle was quoting. This is not the first time I have said this before; but using the AMP (which I also use sometimes), one would find "offering" there, but not so in other versions, NO? Inspite of that, I had raised this issue so many times about where precisely the apostle was quoting when he said "Do you not know. . " in verse 13. I asked you to show us what verse that word was used in that chapter, because I knew the moment you saw it was verse 13, it would take you back to the OT - in which case one would wonder there if what I have been saying is skewed. If the apostle in that verse did not quote the OT, I would be glad again to show it; but I guess you have seen it already, NO?

1 Cor 9:13
13Do you not know that hose men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]?(A)

Cross references to ver 13:

Deut 18:1
1THE LEVITICAL priests and all the tribe of Levi shall have no part or inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings made by fire to the Lord, and His rightful dues.

My dear sister, I'm not an expert but from the two passges above, OFFERING was common to them, Paul meant offerings not tithe for the upkeep of the NT preachers.

I wonder how the early christian Gentiles would have been paying tithe when there was no DIRECT teaching on it from the apostles, knowing fully well it was not part of their culture, even for the christian Jews, they still would have needed some kind of DIRECT teaching or instruction on why they can now give tithe to the apostles rather than the Levites they were used to as of that time.

There also suppose to have been at least a scripture verse where they gave TITHE (not this issue of a proportion) if at all they were actually paying tithe, Paul should have used the name precisely somewhere in his epistles like:-

On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside (your TITHE) and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come

With this there will be no ambiguity. I'm only trying to be objective here, there must have been a reason why Apostles did not teach tithe directly but yet we assume the Gentile Christians were paying it

pilgrim.1:
Here is one such example:

     Leviticus 27:31 -

     "And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes,
      he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof."

Just thinking: if such a person actually added a fifth part to his tithes (that's 20% of the tithes now), then -

       ● would it still be correct to say that the added 20% is still 10%?

       ● would it still be correct to say that what he gives is still "tithe"?

       ● would it still be correct to call this total a "tithe" or something else?


As I said, two things people should note - (1) I do not base my persuasion to tithe upon the Levitical priesthood, but rather upon the priesthood of Melchizedek; (2) I do not feel that the exactitude of a proportion/percentage is the overarching feature, rather it is the principle of tithing that is of greater import to me.

When someone pays a fine or penalty, it's different from the norm

Are you saying one can put 2% (which is a proportion) of an income into tithe basket and still call it tithe, that will be a lying

Many blessings

pilgrim.1:
@sarmy,

I have two questions for you:

    ● you used the word "offering", not so?
       Can you be kind enough to show us what verse that word is used in that chapter?

AMP version specifically referred to offering, and no where in that chapter will you find tithe

13Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]?(A)

●  you quoted from AMP, not so?
       Can you be kind enough to show us what is meant as "in proportion to"
       in the same 1 Cor. 16:2 AMP ?

Are you saying any proportion is equal to tithe, 25%, 30%, 45%

A proportion does not neccessarily mean tithe, whereas 10%, 20% or 45% is a portion or a percentage of a thing

3. Did I say anywhere that Christians are living by the Levitical priesthood? What have I been saying about the priesthood of Melchizedek?

Lol. . . so you never read in the OT that people gave tithes in the same manner? I just want to know before I quote it again for you.

I was not refering to levitical priesthood, what I said was that Jews of those days knew tithes were always meant for the Levites, so if the Apostles wanted Tithe, they needed to instruct them DIRECTLY, we can not assume that they did what he did not teach, is there passage of the Epistles of Paul where he directly instructed the Christian Jews or Gentiles to pay TITHE, lets look at the 1 Cor 16:2 AMP version for example.

2On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.

Paul said put aside something, any amount, he did not say put aside you tithe, he could have said tithe if he wanted them to bring tithe, why did he not use the word TITHE in any of his teachings on giving. At least it would have benefited the Gentile christians who were not used to the word TITHE.

It seems here that the word we so detest (proportion/percentage of income) is what has been trailing us here. See my problem here with us all? We hate the word "tithe", but we so like to use ideas that speak of the same thing that we detest! Just give me the "proportion" bro, and fiam - I'll give you the name for it.

2% is a proportion but not thesame as 10% or Tithe, if any proportion is thesame as tithe then many church leaders will need to be aware of it.

Correction:
May not be up to 50% for sure paying tithe under fear,  but many are out there, still under the threat of mal 3:8. and hell fire if they don't tithe, thank God for your life and many others who are doing it under grace.

Many thanks

pilgrim.1:
@sarmy,

Isn't it a lack of faith that one is only afraid of the term "TITHE" while hoping to do the same thing by another term which has been dribbled through the back door - such as "freewill offerings"? What is this lack of faith we see in other people for calling it TITHES and then we use other terms to speak about our own lack of faith in a simple term?

Dear sarmy, the term is not your problem - dare I say it goes far beyond that. Talk is cheap - you challenge your own faith for 6 months to give above 25% of your income and let's see how comfortable you can get with that! No, I did not say for you to "tithe 25%". . . call it anything you want; but be honest to give above 25% - that is where you faith will be tested - then come back and let us know if you have not lacked the faith in holding your own assumptions.

Cheers.

It seems you did not get the gist "most churches preaching tithe believe members will not give enough if they don't pay tithe (true/false)"

If this is true, where is the faith in God who ordained the church, is He not able to inspire members to give more than enough like in the days of the apostles.

I tell you the truth, more than 50% of those paying tithe are doing so under fear and that also, is lack of faith (If there is fear, there is no faith)

It is not lack of faith for not tithing, it is lack of the word of God to back it up and faith cometh by the word of God, if there is no sufficient word of God in NT to back it up, it may be better not to do it.

I strongly believe one can set aside a proportion of ones income on regular basis for church & mankind not by any manipulation but through understanding of the reasons why it should be done. One of the secrets of financial success is ability to set aside a proportion of ones income for a particular objective regularly (I don't see why this should be difficult for any child of God for 6 months as you mentioned above if one understand why it should be done.

@ Pilgrim1
(3) My persuasions for Tithing derive from what the Lord Jesus ordained

●  Having discussed this point earlier, I had hoped that anyone opposed thereto would have gone back to the Word and shown what infact the apostle was quoting when he referred to ‘the temple’ and ‘the altar’ in 1 Cor. 9:13, and then drew the inference in verse 14 with these words: “EVEN SO. .” One may ask: “Even so”. . what? Was it not that he was showing the precise principle from the OT scripture he had referred to in verse 13? At least, no one has come back to argue that the Lord never ordained anything in that verse – for verse 14 categorically says: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” Even though He ordained it, He did not make it mandatory for any Christian (see verse 15).

Dear Pilgrim,

Thanks for sharing with us the reasons why christians may tithe, I agree with some of your points and hope to make use of them as soon as I join a church that preaches this concept of tithing


But beg to disagree with your point number 3 above quoting 1 cor 9:13-15, that our Lord Jesus ordained TITHE in that passage, what Jesus ordained was for those preaching the gospel to be taken care of from what comes in through the gospel e.g offering, our Lord Jesus or any of the apostles did not categorically ordain or command or receive TITHE from the early Church

1 Cor 9:13-15 AMP version
13Do you not know that those men who are employed in the services of the temple get their food from the temple? And that those who tend the altar share with the altar [in the offerings brought]?(A)

14[On the same principle] the Lord directed that those who publish the good news (the Gospel) should live (get their maintenance) by the Gospel.

15But I have not made use of any of these privileges, nor am I writing this [to suggest] that any such provision be made for me [now]. For it would be better for me to die than to have anyone make void and deprive me of my [ground for] glorifying [in this matter].

We need to ask ourselves why the Apostles seems deliberately refused to use the name TITHE to qalify any of the early church form of giving, there is no any example where any of the early church (Gentiles or Jews) gave Tithe to any of the Apostles or named their giving tithe

I'm sure they could not have requested for Tithe, because early Christian Jews knew tithe was meant for the levites and also Christian Gentiles have not practiced tithing before, then the Apostles had the duty of specifically teaching tithe as a subject or doctine if to be observed so Christian Gentiles could understand the mystery behind it.

Bible confirmed that the early christians gave freely, willinglly and cheerfully and the church lacked nothing (they could not have given tithe as stated above)

It's on record that Tithe was instroduced hundred of years later as a doctine by the Bishops. Apostles did not teach, ordain or received tithe from the early christian Jews/Gentiles

Dear sister, even though I disagree with this point #3, this does not mean Tithe is a sin (NO), the way I see tithe from your concept, it's more or less like any other giving from any devoted child of God, except that TITHE as a name is used here to qualify such, a true child of God may decide to give a proportion of income to support God's work on regular basis without calling it tithe which the Apostles and the early church practiced.

pilgrim.1:
I was waiting to get there at some point, but patience. . it won't be long before we see the so-called "liberty" they have been preaching manifest itself for what it actually is! "Just give" - talk is cheap: let these same fellows tell us how they hope to sustain the idea of "Christian liberty" while parodying their lazy sanctimonius confusion tsanctimoniousmselves cannot digest.

This, I think is the main reason why most churches will prefer to use the term TITHE is so as to ensure that more can be given to sustain the church which in itself is lack of faith, early church did not practice this and yet they lacked nothing.

Remain blessed and many thanks

God bless you all, used to worship @ Canaan Land, now trying to locate a winners church here in Ireland.

@Pilgrim,

Please kindly list out why you tithe in simple terms, I have been blessed by some of your responses so far but yet to really understand your concept of tithing, as for law-based tithing, we already know the truth, no more an issue.

Can you list out 10 or more reasons why you tithe or why christians MAY tithe instead of ordinary giving/offering, please just itemize them for now, no details except bible reference, I'm sure you must have dealt with the details earlier.

If I can get the revelation of the significance under NT, then I can buid my faith accordingly.

Many thanks

@Pilgrim
Thanks for responding to those clarifications, though I'll like to comment on few of them while awating more response from you. Peace

pilgrim.1:
1. God did not "ordain" tithe prior to the LAW. Abraham was moved by faith to give tithes unto Melchizedek (see Galatians 3:7 on the principle of his faith).

I thought you said God ordained tithe prior to Law, which is the reason why even though we are no longer under the law we can still observe it. (no probs)

4. ,  those who tithe look beyond what they can get from God: they are making a statement of thankfulness to the One who values their recognition of His Lordship over their lives. It is more a matter of worship than of "receiving"; although the worshipper is definitely blessed when he/she does so.

Likewise, christians giving/offering under NT is in worship of God, how is tithe then different from the other Offerings under NT?

And if there is mystery to the name TITHE beyond the ordinary, what about the fact that none of the early churches directly used the word TITHE to represent any of their 'GIVING'

And none of the apostles instructed the early church to classify their offerings into TITHE and others

Many Thanks

Dear Pilgrim,

I know how you feel and really appreciate all your efforts regarding this subject, may God continue to grant you more knowledge and wisdom, including those that have disagreed with you one way or the other, not to ridicule your submissions but so we can all make informed decisions

Some of the assertions made by Kunle were not meant to discredit your efforts but I think to enable you backup your concept of tithe with a more DIRECT scripture passages

Like some of the questions I asked you, a more direct answer to them would have gone a long way in clarifying how I understand your concept of tithe as in the following.

Please correct any of them if assumed wrongly or add more if needed, I don’t have all the passages to support them but I think at one time or the other you have done that.

1. Tithe was ordained by God pre-mosaic law (Abraham tithed)
2. To be given to those that minister to God or for God’s word propagation (Melkizedek)
3. Beyond the law, designed as a mystery so God can bless His people (Melkizedek blessed Abraham)
4. Not compulsory, but whoever needs God’s divine blessing can tap into it (Abraham / Jacob did)
5. Not necessarily 10% exactly or the percentage that matters, but quality of the proportion (the best part)
6. Other giving accepted by God but Tithe is primarily ordained by God to sustain His work and for Him to keep releasing His blessing (OT/NT alike)
7. Those who are not tithing will not be punished but they are not connected to the mystery

Reason why I said it seems like a revelation, one can not support this DIRECTLY from the scriptures but if one adds some scriptures together like you did, it’s possible to see beyong ordinary/letters and see this as NT concept of tithe.

Not many will agree with this concept and for the fact that none of the early churches directly used the word TITHE to represent any of the giving; one may assume this is another ploy to make children of God give more than ordinary just ‘giving’

I don't have any problem with this concept, since it's giving by His grace not by a do or die. Most children of God will give their best to God to show His love and goodness.

Shalom.

@Pilgrim
I've appealed, dear brother. . as long as we keep searching for names, terms, %, frequency, LAW, etc about this matter, the further it will continue to confuse us until we set our eyes beyond those ordinary matters and seek the real meaning of what we are discussing. Does it not have any meaning at all? If not, end of story - we can as well throw the whole thing over the bridge and live as we choose, No?

I'm trying very hard to see beyond the ordinary, especially from your perspective, reason why I kept coming back to you.

It seems you've got a kind of revelation of it and also trying very hard to explain it. Is there a mystery to that name tithe and from your perspective, how do you define tithe (I'm sorry if this has been mentioned b/4)

Hi Pilgrim,

It's difficult to accept that TITHE can be 1% or 10% or that the % does not really matter

Tithe is widely known as tenth of a thing or 1/10 of something

Numbers 18:26-27 NIV version
26 "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the LORD's offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress


In as much as children of God (NT) can give to God as blessed by Him, there is no reason why it MUST be called tithe b/4 it's acceptable to God.

None of the early churches named their giving TITHE, absolutely none. Thanks

Remain blessed.

@Fifio
Mnh, I wonder if anyone makes sense of these too? Whatever we give should not be called tithes. Fullstop.This is not just a quarel with the wrong application of the word,as I have tried to show here, but it is simply recogniising that the term is not applicable to us at all anymore than we can bring in our sin offering,tresspass offering, burnt, or cereal offering, or whatever!
Afterall, Malachi 3:20 talks about robbing God in 'Tithes' and 'Offerings'.

Whatever we give should not be called tithes. Fullstop. Thanks Fifio

@Pilgrim
2. There are other terms even in the Old Testament that point to "tithes" -

            ~ 'all the best part' (Num. 18:29)

            ~ 'the heave offering' (Num. 18:24)

            ~ 'the hallowed part' (Num. 18:29)

            ~ 'the increase of the threshing floor' (Num. 18:30)

            ~ 'the increase of the winepress' (Num. 18:30)

            ~ 'the hallowed things' (Deut. 26:13, KJV, AMP)
               'the sacred portion' (NIV)
 
Please read all those references so that it is clear to you that I was not quoting them out of contexts. It is not the actual term we use that is important, whether ~

                  "tenths"
                  "tithes"
                  "hallowed"
                  "sacred"
                  "best"
                  "heave"

What is important is the real import of what it means. The moment we come back clogged with "1000000%" or "how many percent", we simply miss the real value of what God is pointing our hearts to.

Thanks, how I wish they preach it like this in many churches, I personally will be glad to tithe, or may be I've actually be tithing but did not call it that name.

Remain blessed

@Pilgrim,

Thanks my dear sister, I have been blessed, and learnt a lot from what we've discussed on this forum, I think many may not have problem paying tithe from all you've said in that summary BUT

I think you are yet to answer directly why the Apostles were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY ordain or teach tithe to the early Church as a subject and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

1 Cor. 9:14, 1 Corinthians 16:2, 1 Cor. 16:1,  etc did not mention the term TITHE ( we only assume it was tithe, I'm OK with that)

Heb 7:1-end mentioned tithe but not DIRECTLY as a subject  that we should pay it (I have read that passage several times)

Paul discussed several other issues in the bible DIRECTLY e.g  Charity, Immorality, Speaking in tongue, women covering head, not speaking in Church etc why is TITHE not discussed as a subject DIRECTLY even by our Lord Jesus, and other apostles.

This will help us to know if the term TITHE is that important under new testament, or just GIVING as led by God, I learnt there are churches today that do not teach tithe but just GIVING.

Shalom

KunleOshob:
@sarmy
Tithe never had anything to do with income in biblical times, it was strictly farm produce (produce of the land or the tenth animal that passes under the rod). Search the bible well there is no where tite is described as a percent tage of income, not even Abraham's one off tithe that my darling Pilgrim is always reminding us of

Agree, but I think we can learn from that one off tithe of Abraham, giving a % of ones income to support God's work or less priviledged in society on regular basis is a fantastic principle for financial success, every child of God should be encouraged to do this (but not as a do or die affair) I think we have all agreed on this.

But, must we call the % we give to church TITHE?

pilgrim.1:
Now, the sum of what most of us have been saying are:

      1. there is nothing wrong with Christians tithing or not tithing

      2. to preach tithing in the NT needs to be properly balanced

      3. failure to balance this subject will lead many to become bitter

      4. such failure manifests where some leaders use Malachi 3 to ‘curse’ Christians

      5. besides, tithing is not all about money

      6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

      7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

      8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

      9. there is no verse in the NT (at least IMHO) where anything is required

    10. consequently, no compulsion, demand, or force is placed on us
           -  whether it is gifts or offerings of any kind.

For the other arguments advanced, my simple point is this: if we all agree that there is nothing wrong with tithing, then WHY is it making some people so bitter after admitting that nothing is wrong with it?

Anyway, I have learnt and am still learning from the fresh insights on the subject. Many blessings.

100% supported, BUT what readily comes to mind when the name TITHE is mentioned is TENT or 10% of something, if not neccessarily the % that matters as you claimed, I wonder how many pastors will agree with this.

However, could it be that early Christians were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY mention, require, command, demand it from early Church and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several  years later

Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, mostly about the presthood of Jesus, Heb 7:1-end not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

I'm not drawing us back on this, but could it have been that the Apostles were not keen to the name TITHE though any % of ones income is welcome in support of the gospel, either 10% or 100%

I  think we can see from all passages submitted earlier, no DIRECT use of the name TITHE as new testament church form of giving, although one we can give tent or more of our income to Church as part of our service to God regularly, and as led by the Holy Spirit.

I'm trying to harmonize all I have learnt from this forum and the above issue seems yet to be addressed. Thanks

pilgrim.1:
@All,

Just so you don't misunderstand what my aim is, let me outline them:

(a) I'm least interested in what any pastor anywhere has turned tithes into. Rather than waste my time condemning anyone, I would rather share what I see in God's Word. leave those men alone and let God deal with them directly.

(b) It is not in the least of my interest to be engulfed in quarrels with any pastor; so there is just no way I would become bitter just because someone said something I don't agree with during Church service. That is not helping me or anyone else.

(c) Now, if I'm going to help myself or anyone else, I should be willing to consider everything that others are saying. Is it possible that while we think we know it all, we might be unfairly accusing pastors on the basis of our own ignorance? Perhaps we may feel that they are wrong in certain places (as I shared above on malachi 3); but rather than slobber them and reveal my own ungodliness, why don't I rather share why I may not agree with them?

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

(e) I think it is more helpful for people to simply share, debate healthily, avoid uncouth accusations against anyone, and contribute questions that constructively critique our submissions. If this is not helpful, pilgrim.1 is not in the habit of castigating any pastor; for it is not in my place to judge anything before that time when Christ will do so (1 Cor. 4:5).

God bless us all.

I've learnt one or two things from you all.

you and kunle are very firm on where you stand and that's good for this discussion, we need to see things from different perspectives, at times due to ones passion, it may lead to castigating others, but I think all we are saying is for God's word (The TRUTH) to prevail for HIS Glory either for or against.

Shalom

@Pilgrim

Ummm! and you said you no be pastor!

Seriously speaking, I think you need to write a book on tithe.

If this is how pastors are preaching it, many may understand better, you've really dealt with it,

I still have one question, though and I may not bother you again - Would it be appropriate to use Mal 3:8-10 to enforce tithe to the body of Christ, I know you have indirectly answered this but for clarity sake, I need a DIRECT answer. Many Thanks 

Remain blessed