₦airaland Forum

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

@Pilgrim
Perfectly so, I believe, because whatever we do with our money or material wealth is absolutely up to us (Acts 5:4 – “Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”). One cannot dictate to another what and how their money or material substance should be used. Yet, whatever percentage we may want to set aside for the help of the poor, it should not be confused for the ministry of our giving in Church as outlined earlier.

Ministry of giving in Church (Tithe or otherwise) as outlined in your submissions and supported by many is as led by the Spirit of God NOT STRICT RULE under new testament.

Therefore, we can sum all as follows:-

- Giving a tenth of ones income to God should be encouraged and not enforced as a do or die affair.
- Giving a percentage of ones income to church or charity or poor, not necessarily calling it tithe is also acceptable by God
- Method of giving tithe as outlined before, should be as led by the Spirit of God
- It also seems there is danger not giving exact tithe amount if it must be called TITHE (there is danger in lying to the holy spirit as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira

Would it not be better if body of Christ can lay more emphasis on ensuring that all children of God are filled with the Spirit of God so we can be led to give, willingly and cheerfully rather than mechanical method of placing a rule on giving.

If it is a MUST, then it is not willingly, if as led by the Spirit of God, then it is not a MUST.

one LOVE

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

pilgrim.1:
I would say that our offerings are a ministry of the Church and was not meant to be carried out just about anyhow according to our fancies.

One could always give to the poor however one chooses (Mark 14:7); whereas the ministry of the saints is something which is gathered in Church (1 Cor. 16:1-3). Again, as this minsitry also extends to the support of ministers (1 Cor. 9:14; Galatians 6:6) as well as elders (1 Tim. 5:17-18), it makes sense that they are made collectively in Church. That does not mean that we cannot support the poor directly, though; yet, such a support is no excuse for not obeying what the Lord had ordained in 1 Cor. 9:14.

Perfectly so, I believe, because whatever we do with our money or material wealth is absolutely up to us (Acts 5:4 – “Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?”). One cannot dictate to another what and how their money or material substance should be used. Yet, whatever percentage we may want to set aside for the help of the poor, it should not be confused for the ministry of our giving in Church as outlined earlier.

Many blessings.

Let's assume Local church as you said but, does it mean there is no liberty to give tithe to other churches in need if we are in position to help, especially if we also get from them, spiritual nourishment.

@Sleekymag

I pay mine to my local church, but basically, it should be as the spirit leads (Deut 14:25). It should be where you get spiritually nourished, which is in your church.
However say, you are a billionaire, and your company make billions of dollars annually, spreading your company's tithe around your church, the poor, disaster victims, NGOs, missionaries, corporate social responsibility etc. might make more sense than giving the whole lot to your church alone. (That's my opinion)

Many will agree with this position, should we then say as led by the Spirit of God, since there is no direct statement contrary to this in the new testament

KunleOshob:
@Sarmy
I agree with your submission a hundred per cent but the reality on ground is that the church as mis-led and continues to mislead people to believe tithing is compulsory for christians even when the scriptures make it clear it is not and the version of tithing they preach is also unscriptural. My grouse really is the manipulation of the word of God for material benefit, it makes me feel betrayed as a christian that our "trusted" christian leaders can be deceiving us. In fact i walked out of curch two sundays ago because my pastor was preaching this false doctrine, i felt so bitter and betrayed that i didn't go to church last sunday. Personally i believe in and support christian giving which is free will with a good heart. Pastors owe it to their congregation to tell them the truth and that is were i stand.

That deceit is the real issue, I had similar experience where pastor personally cursed those that did not pay tithe for that week, it's very painful. this kind of forum is necessary so this burden can be lifted off Christian shoulders.

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

pilgrim.1:
There are so many questions embedded in that single one; and let’s see if we could deal with them inindividually|_
(a) when should it be – monthly, weekly, reguregularly and consistently?
I think the keyword there is ‘consistently’. If one wants to do so more regularly monthly or weekly, it is a transaction between him-/herself and God.


(b) what about when there are pressing financial needs (like bills to be paid)?
I think that the Bible has a direct answer to that:

‘For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted
according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not.
For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened’
~~ [2 Cor. 8:12-13]

The verses above clearly states that giving, even when it is based on a willing mind, is accepted according to what a man has and not to be made under a burden where you don’t have. If one is cajoled to pay or give anything under a burden, then something else is operating rather than the Word of God.

Now, please understand that these are my thoughts – and I may be wrong. However, let’s balance the concept by recognizing that some people’s hearts have been moved to give ‘according to their ability’ (Ezra 2:69 and Acts 11:29) while others were moved even under deep poverty to give more than their abilities (2 Cor. 8:2-4). The underlying current is that each giver should know that God does not wish to burden them in this ministry at all.

(c) what about if one does not pay for a while – should he/she repay?
Hmm, I don’t think tithes and freewill offerings for the Christian should be treated as rents that we owe landlord O! Under the [i]Law, the concept of repaying tithes was well established – problem is that one was to add 20% of the value of the tithe before repaying it (Lev. 27:31). However, this was not the case with those who preceded the Law, nor is it the case with those who came after the Law. I may be wrong, but for the Christian, the idea of repaying tithes is not Biblically tenable. That is because tithing for the Christian is not predicated upon the Law of Moses.

May God bless you, we might likewise say as led by the Spirit of God according to ones ability & financial responsibilities, no where in the new testament where it's compulsory to pay at a particular time, or when one is having pressing financial needs.

Now to the questions:-

1. What to pay 10% of gross, or 10% of net, plus any other income, gifts, bonus

@ Pilgrim
The point here is not to be so fastidious about an exact amount – whether 10%, 75.58% or even 100%. We learn in Scripture simply that Abraham gave ‘tithes of all’ (Genesis 14:20, KJV) the same thing which the NT calls the ‘tenth of the spoils’ (Heb. 7:4, KJV). The NIV, the AMP and a few other versions use “tenth” in Gen. 14:20, and technically they are the same thing. If one was to be meticulous of exacting figures around gross or domestic income, how would one have calculated what exactly is 10% of Abraham’s spoils?

If we look at this critically, not giving exalt tenth of ones income and calling it tithe is more grivious of a sin than not paying tithe at all, if we look at the example of Ananih and Sapphira, they wanted to give like others but not exalt amount they aught to have given, and it attracted serious penalty.

When you bring tithe to the alter as demanded in most churches, you are saying for this period, this is exact tenth of all my income, increases, bonuses, gifts etc
If you are a business man, you'll need to ensure your accountant did a good job calculating your exact profit.

From this forum, it seems some support gross while others net income, should we say as led by the Spirit of God since this is not specifically stated in the new testament how tithe is to be paid, except in the old testament where we have different types of it but money unsupported.

@Pilgrim
In additionto the succinct answers provided by sleekmag,  let me address your questions. The first thing to note is that I don’t argue tithes or any type of giving for the Christian upon the basis of the Law – I have often consistently laid that position clear. Are there principles in the Law we can benefit from as regarding tithes and other offerings? Yes, and I’m aware of so many of them. However, my approach in this matter is not to “justify” tithes by a literal application of  the Sinaitic/Mosaic Law. That said, let me share a few pointers with you:

Many Thanks, Pilgrim, Sleekmag, Kunle, & others - one LOVE

Pilgrim, that above submission summarises it all, remain blessed.

I think we are getting somewhere on this forum, lets list out areas of agreement, so we can look at other contention areas

Most of us agree, for Christians, children of God under His Grace tithe should not be based on Mosaic Law using Mal, Lev or Deut. (YES)

It's a principle we can apply as Christian for our own gain, we are NOT giving so God can be God, but we are giving to show our love for him, he will reward our giving accordingly (YES)

Must a Christian be crucified by God for not doing it (NO)
No record of Isaac, Enoch, Noah, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and early Christians church where they DIRECTLY gave tithe or asked for it.

Is it a sin to tithe (NO)

Is it a sin not to tithe (NO)

Would God bless us if we tithe (YES), give and it shall be given back to you (ANY type of GIVING done with the right mind will attract blessing)

If tithe or giving is good (YES), how do we give under the new testament so that we don't contradict ourselve, one leg under grace, another leg under law?

Lets see that from Pilgrims' quotes,

duabba:
The body of Christ is not the buildings, speakers, chairs etc that we have come to accept as 'the church'. We should see christianity as a faith not religion, for we are saved by faith not by righteous works. The way I see it, most people tithe because of what they would gain spiritually (selfish) while others give to the needy based on the love and concern within their hearts (selfless), which is the foundation of christianity. BOTTOMLINE: Whether it's tithe-based giving or mercy-based giving, it is the intention and faith behind it that matters.

GBAM!

True talk. Some are giving because they have been told, windows of heaven will open and not that they really love God or fellow men

Some Christians will even dupe another Christian brother, evade tax and still pay tithe "rob man & pay God" Self-centredness.

Motive / intention crucial in giving.

@KunleOshob,

She will come back

Actually, these are issues I have been bothering about for a while, if not for the grace of God, I almost stopped going to Church. You hear if you do not tithe, it means you are a this or that, some names I cannot mention here etc. And, you must do it consistently or else you are still a robber anytime you miss it, pastor keeps the record and knows those who are paying and those who are not, it seems like a serious burden.

Leaving the church, where to, all are thesame for most Pentecostals here where I live, reason why I started searching everywhere to know more about this topic. I used to pay but I stopped that method of giving when it became like a bondage, VERY strict regulations and while some of the pastors were building estates back in Nigeria.

True story (a guy came here to live with his brother, after few weeks of searching for job, they got him one, but  he said, he already found another job, asked what kind of job, he's starting a church)

@pilgrim,

I hope you will understand why I keep coming back to you on this subject, I really appreciate your time, just that I want to know all I'm yet to know, may God continue to bless you.

I 100% support giving, 10% of ones income to God should not be problem as a child of God,  but according to Paul, as one purposed in his heart which is as led by the Spirit not strictly by a percentage of ones income should one give to God, many have disagreed with this in relation to tithe, OK no problem  but,

Please, before I finally succumb, kindly clarify the following, with bible reference from the new testament if need be, either for or against. Thanks and God bless you.

1. What to pay as tithe (10% of gross income b/4 tax or net after tax including any other income or gifts)

2. When (monthly or weekly, regularly and consistently even when you are owing or having pressing financial needs, what about if you did not pay for a while, must you re-pay back)

3. Where to and how (local church, local pastor or those in need or as led by the Spirit of God)

4. If a percentage of ones income is given to the local church and some to less privileged in the body of Christ/society but not as tithe, would this be acceptable to God.

The word of God it truth, we shall know it and the truth shall set us free from any boundage.

Many Thanks

@ pilgrim,

1 Corinthians 9:9-11 AMP version

    11If we have sown [the seed of] spiritual good among you, [is it too] much if we reap from your material benefits?
   
My sister, you are either a pastor or pastor's wife or to be, anyway, more blessing to you, I really appreciate all your inputs.

However, from the above verses of the scripture, there is no command statement in what Paul said, "is it too much if we reap from your material benefits, this could be freewill offering, pastors offering or freewill giving but definitely Paul was not asking for tithe, it he wanted it he could have stated it more clearly in any of his epistles.

A command is to direct with authority; give orders with consequences for disobedience, that is not found, such statement on tithe in the new testament but found in the old testament as in Mal:8-10, what we have is the direct opposite, give freely, willingly, cheerfully for God loves a cheerful giver and

2Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. There is no anywhere in the new testament (Note:as far as I know) where there is command for christians to tithe (it was a command under the Law but not anymore under Grace)

As Paul said in the above passage, you can purpose/decide how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace, this brings much more blessing than the old testament method of giving. Reason why some pastors still preach the old method is because they don't trust members will give enough.

Shalom

sis debora:
as a good Christian that is going by the commandments should pay tithe.

sis, There is no any commandment in the new testament for Christians to pay tithe, only freewill offering/giving, willingly, cheerfully and in LOVE not with penalty for not doing but with blessing if done with the right mind and intention. You can purpose how much you intend to give 5%, 10%, 50% or 100%, monthly, weekly or yearly. It's up to you as led by the spirit of God under His Grace.

Remain blessed

@pilgrim

pilgrim.1:
Hmm, I have often asked those discussing this subject to look away from the idea of LAW. When people base all their argument of tithes on the LAW, they will never be able to see what came before the LAW and how that one act of Abraham's faith affected even his unborn generations. It beats me how people can bind their hearts and minds and make so much of the LAW of tithes without realizing that tithes did not originate with the LAW. Like I have sated again and again, if anyone does not want to give, instead of being angry and cause their mouths to sin against the Word, simply save their money and sidon look. No wahala in the matter.
God bless you.

pilgrim, I really appreciate your wisdom and knowledge especially in trying to proof this issue but I will like you to try and understand other views and be open minded, I've learnt from you from this conversation but I think most of the time you close your mind to others point of view.

No one is saying giving is not good, all we are saying is that it should be done as someone under grace not under law, the amount or percentage is not the problem but must be done with the right mind, not as being forced, threatened with hell fire etc quoting word of God out of context for support.

One other thing my sister, you said tithe precedes the law and we kept saying there are other things we can no longer enforce like circumstition, you did not respond, after all, Abraham circumcised his sons even before the law, should we now continue to enforce it as tithe is parallel to circumstition.

Lastly, as I said before, there is no any child of God who will not like to give to God, either 10% or more or even 100%, I think we should discourage using the word of God to force others to pay tithe, or that it started before the law and binding on all Christian, even when it is not the requirement for making heaven.

Since as they normally say it's for God, why are they so passionate about it more than some sinful acts of today and holliness, no matter what you do to make money if you bring tithe to church regularly, pastor will like you but if you don't pay, its the other way, I hope you know why.

One in Christ, Shalom!

sistawoman:
Goodmorning or Afternoon or Evening,

I normally only read in the religion section and practice my Christianity off the board. But today my heart is heavy and there are several things that are weighing on my soul and mind.

I know that through all things God is always wonderful and righteous. I am finding it difficult today to listen to God. i am finding it difficult to hear what he needs to say to me. i am finding it difficult to remove this cloud that is over my head today.

Please I come for some words of encouragement.

My Sister, think of some wonderful things he has done, those wonderful moments and try singing him a song and open a channel of communication via praise. Before you know what is happening His Spirit will lift you up and move you into higher realm.

Your are probably passing through a phase to a better level, cheer-up as He will never leave you nor forsake you, if only you can see what he's proposed to do, you will jump-up and dance to His name.

Shalom

Thanks all, I'm learning from your posts BUT

If we are to practice it like Abraham did then

   (a) Abraham gave tithes only once:  so?
         how many times should he have given before God can call it "TITHES of ALL"?

(Christian should pay tithe not necessarily every month as required in Churches today, and should be FREELY as one purposed in his heart, not by necessity for God loves cheerful giver.

     (b) he did not give from his own income: so?
          did God call it stealing or borrowing or anything else other than tithes?

(we may decide to give tithe not necessarily from regular monthly income BUT FROM OTHER SOURCES)

     (c) we cannot repeat what Abraham did: really?
          then we should stop having FAITH!

(pilgrim, we can not repeat everything Abraham did. On the issue of tithe, he gave it out of free will, not commanded by God, Isaac did not practice it, Jesus & the Apostles no record of them paying tithe to anyone. Not everything Abraham did can be copied/paste, Jesus is the author and finisher of our FAITH

There is nothing wrong for children of God to give either offering or tithe like Abraham did but asking for it as IF UNDER THE LAW with concequences for not giving using mal 3:8-10 I disagree, I hope we all agree on this. Thanks

Brothers and sisters

Heb 7:5 makes it clear that in the old testament tithe was required as part of the law and Galatians 3:10-13 says we can no longer continue with the practices of the law,

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

pilgrim / kunle,

I think we 're almost saying thesame thing, Pilgrim, like Kunle said there are some other things existing before the law of moses and yet we can no longer practice them today like sacrifice, I think the name Tithe is not the issue but the context of tithing is the problem.

Using the name Tithe AS IF STILL PRACTICING ORDINANCES OF THE LAW is wrong, we can give 10%, 80% or 100% no problem, it's good, there are rewards in giving but using mal 3:8-10 to support giving is contracry to Apostles' doctrine.

Galatians 3:10-13

"10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

KunleOshob:
@sarmy
if i were you i would not only engage the pastor and other church members or why tithing is unscriptural and not meant for christians, i would also leave the church. You should not allow any man to intimidate you into doing what God deed not request from you. I have done a lot of extensive research on tithes and i would be glad to give you links, bible passages and verses that establishes that tithing as we have it today is completely unscriptural or at best a fraudulent manipulation of what the bible says.

That is the problem, it seems all penticostal churches are using this same method, if only I can find a church that is truthful in this regard I will be very glad, I love to give but I hate being manipulated especially when it's contrary to God's absolute will. The church is well known all over and the senior pastor well respected but it confuses me why he kept preaching this method of giving, a yound convert left our church after the message and never returned. Thanks

pilgrim.1:
@sarmy,

Tithing should really not be based on what people have turned it into. We all have our persuasions here and there about this subject; but at the end of the day, we know that tithing did not originate with the Law, nor does the Law abrogate what it did not originate. The beautiful thing about any type of giving in the NT is that no one is forced to give anything. As the heart is willing, so we can find grace to do so.

I really like this forum, in my church it seems 'am alone as I can not discuss this with anyone, they seem not to understand or too afraid to talk about it, I feel like leaving the church but where do I go as most churches are the same, I almost turning away from Christianity when my pastor said quoting from mal 3:8-10 that it's compulsory for christian to tithe if not THEY WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN as no robbers will make it to heaven.

Now every member must have tithe number where they record this and also being checked by pastor to know those who are not paying tithe. What should I do, pls advise

pilgrim.1:
@obatoro,

I will like to know where the highlighted qoute of yours is in the bible.

(a) If God does not "command" or "force" or "cajole" anyone to tithe, then where do you want me to show what He does not do? Unless you have a verse where He actually "commands, cajoles and forces" anyone to tithe, then it may be helpful for you to share with us.

(b) "If the heart is willing" - here is a verse: 2 Corinthians 8:12

For if there be first a willing mind,
it is accepted according to that a man hath,
and not according to that he hath not.

(c) He "receives" them from the tither - that has already been shown from Hebrews 7:8 . . please scroll up and see where I quoted the AMP version to clarify the issue.

Before the Law it was not by force (Abraham gave tithe willingly and only once not every month or year from his personal income

Under the Law, it was by force or they will be cursed according to Mal 3:8-10, now that we are no longer under the Law why are some pastors still enforcing it as if under the Law using Mal 3:8-10 calling children of God robbers etc.

Giving should be as led by the spirit not according to law, tithing 10% of total gross income or net income every month under compulsion

Some scriptures, I think do not support tithing according to the Law esp mal 3:8-10

Bible AMP version

Heb 7:8
5And it is true that those descendants of Levi who are charged with the priestly office are commanded in the Law to take tithes from the people--which means, from their brethren--though these have descended from Abraham.
(Tithe as of the Law of Moses)

11Now if perfection (a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper) had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood--for under it the people were given the Law--why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron?
(Jesus came and  replace the Levitical Priesthood)

12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law [concerning the priesthood] as well.
18So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness--
   19For the Law never made anything perfect--but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.

(Priesthood was changed, Law also changed including Tithing)

girl 3:13
13Christ purchased our freedom [redeeming us] from the curse (doom) of the Law [and its condemnation] by [Himself] becoming a curse for us, for it is written [in the Scriptures], Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (is crucified);(A)

(Jesus has delivered Christians from Mal 3:8-10)

Romans 8:32
32He who did not withhold or spare [even] His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He not also with Him freely and graciously give us all [other] things?

(God bleses His children freely by His Grace, children of God can give but willingly not by cursing them or through manipulation & fear)

The sermon last sunday in my church was on tithing and my pastor repeated these often told lies about tithes, i felt so disappointed and betrayed i walked out of the church during the service.

Kunle, is there a church not so keen to this type of sermon one can be attending, I like giving but the way pastors preach tithes these days is discouraging

2) Heb. 7:8 - "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, . ." etc.

AMP bible version will tell that's Melchizedek not Jesus:

8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].

davidylan:
where in your bible did you read this? Its hard to convince the unbeliever when even those who profess the gospel don't understand it.

Knowing God is by reading His word line by line, asking questions whenever you run into a bottle neck but with a sincere desire to learn rather than with the mindset to disprove which sadly many of our resident athiests have.

From the old testament to the new, it is replete with men who dilligently read the books of the law and the prophets, studying to shew themselves approved unto God, not just sitting in a corner pretending to be in deep introspection . . . that is the tool of the psychologist.

You can know God when you open the door of your heart to Him Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if ANY man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

God has been relating with people even before the written word/bible, Abraham did not have access to Bible yet he had relationship with God, Enouch, Abel, Joseph etc.

Bible enhances our access to God but not the letters, the spirit behind the letters is what we should preach, that is the Gospel.

Okija_juju:
Where are you going with this. We are talking about proof and here you go with these sentimental-inner-revalation-personal-relation line again.


Nobody can justify their religion because they are all blind followers. All they have are beliefs, faiths, feelings, signs and wonders & miracles. Prove me wrong if you can.

To be candid, God can only be discovered though inner-self, I can only show you the method but you can only find Him by yourself, His seed is already in you. (ALL men)

I am not a religious person as it has both pros and cons.

If you must know God you have to detach youself from religion and seek Him starting from your real person inside. (That is the message of Christ)

Trying to know God by the (letters) of the religion books will not only confuse you but may try to disconnect you from Him

You can only find God through your inner-self, reason why many think there is no God is because they are looking for God via letters of the holy books

If you sincerely want to know God, seek inner revelation of Him, you will find Him because His seed is inside of you. (even those that think He does not exist could find Him if they can diligently seek Him)

Pastor AIO:
But is it religion

To them yes, others may call it madness, it all depend on how we look at it.

God is Love anything outside of Love is not of God.

God bless you guys, you are winning souls for Christ.

Path of a just man is as a shining light that shines more and
more until the perfect day

The deeper your insight (based on God's word) the higher you fly,

Religion can take people away from God, killing in the name of religion definitely not of God.