₦airaland Forum

Even the chinese, one of the slowest to social change don't classify it as a mental illness. Uptill 2001, it was still an illness:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/08/health/08PSYC.html

Important new evidence on a plausible mechanism for the evolution of :gay genes: has emerged from the elegant work of Camperio-Ciani [24]. They found in two large, independent studies that the female relatives of homosexual men tended to have significantly more offspring than those of the heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. This indicates that females carrying a putative "gay genes" complex are more fecund than women lacking this complex of genes, and thereby can compensate for any decreased fertility of the males carrying the genes. This is a well known phenomenon in evolution known as "sexual antagonism", and has been widely documented for many traits that are advantageous in one sex but not in the other

Trust me, if there is a gay gene one day, it would be found. Right now we can speculate. Is it a mutation? Maybe, but then that shifts the debate into another dimension. How evolution works is totally different from rational human thinking.

Camperio-Ciani is a brilliant scientist by the way and would not be fabricating anything. He is also straight. So dont worry, not biased data 

I changed my age so that people can at least award me some respect and stop calling me son. I want to be a father. 



Disclaimer: I am totally ignorant and mediocre so no one should insult me, I am not worth it-everyone on nairaland knows more than i do. i am just stating what my below average mind thinks.

I still think his action is unethical.

Quick question: Are you gay? (no pun intended)

No, I am not. I used to be averse to homosexuality until I wrote a research paper on homosexuality. Like so i know a lot, a lot more than I am even posting here. From historical data, to the gay movement, to how they tried to link the gay movement to the civil rights movement, to the laramie project (where a young boy was killed by his peers because of his orientation), to gays in media, business, science- i don read all the book finish. That is when I began to understand that prejudice is ignorance.

I believe one should read openly, search for answers critically, Never accept everything other people tell you until I myself do the research and find out it is true. I can't equate pedophilia to homosexuality- pedophiles are wrong, no arguments for them, they are crazy although I am radically liberal a.k.a socialist.

There behavior harms society directly (pedophiles). When having sex too much reduces reproductivity, I would argue against too much sex too, because it is harmful to our society- could lead to our extinction.

My only fear against homosexuality is that maybe our full acceptance would lead to it competing with heterosexuality as the traditional sexual behavior. My only concerns with it are the long term societal effects (accepting something as right could lead to its escalation). However, I might be wrong, for one, I dont find any man attractive except myself  . If I get raped by a man, I wouldn't find men attractive either, I would just get scared when I see a man in the night. Na woman I enjoy pass  and that was how i was born .

How taboos in society are constructed is usually to prevent harm to that society. For example in yoruba land/other cultures shaking someone with your left hand is a taboo.  Usually this is because in the past we cleaned ass with our left. Now, it is still a taboo (judging by the slaps i sometimes get from my dad) to touch an elder with your left hand. But in other advanced countries everyone shakes/serves/touches with both hands. Not a taboo anymore, but it was a long time ago b4 tissue paper  . Incase you don't understand my analogy, homosexuality does not fit the standards required for  being a taboo using sociology. Also shows we are always slow to change



Disclaimer: I am totally ignorant and mediocre so no one should insult me, I am not worth it-everyone on nairaland knows more than i do. i am just stating what my below average mind thinks.

I largely agree with this, we mostly all like to have our privates stimulated one way or the other, the question as to whether someone is born gay could as well be rephrased to ask if someone is born heterosexual. As sex and reproduction have become largely separated for mankind.

Very good phrased question (Not because you agreed with me   ). Yes sex and reproduction are very different thing. If we are going to only think of reproduction, them homosexuality in itself could become a problem because it might lead to the extinction of our species (humans). As long as (1) Gay people continue being a minority (2)They don't start raping people (rare to hear of gay rape, more common to hear about heterosexual rape)
3) and they don't start smiling at me or giving me advances   , I am happy. What you do in your bedroom is your business as long as you are not hurting other people

omo ODE no too hard na. Wink sebi na just first order and second order ODE u dey do. na PDE's get as e be. Too many moving parts but u can master it too with enough practice Smiley

Speak for yourself , It is Now between, My brain and the bible. I have more faith in the bible

Desperation to demonstrate superior intelligence: When your intelligence is only above average and even evident in the merely decent university you attend and pride yourself so much on (funnily when it is likely due to affirmative action benefits), hence you should be careful the people you challenge intellectually.

Ok, I just saw this, and that is very very disturbing,  especially coming from a black person  . You know how much prejudice/discrimination black people experience in America/UK (I know to you it isn't obvious, but instead of just assuming that everything is right because i was lucky to  come to the US when prejudice was more reduced) and you try to disparage someones achievements based on affirmative action? I might as well assume that Bayo ogunlesi got to his position at credit suisse through affirmative action (He is one of the heads of the SEO- people who try and get minorities into wall street and a big proponent of AA, I met him once when he came to my school). Insult Barack Obama, someone who spent his first two years at a sub-level liberal art school b4 he transferred to Columbia, and he got the equivalent of a 2-2 (second class lower), then continued to Harvard law (we obviously know how), and graduated magna cum laude (first class equivalent). Did you not celebrate his victory?

By the way affirmative action is only done for US citizens/ permanent residents. I am not one. Agreed there are very few Original Nigerians- proudly green white and green  (international students not part-time nigerians (british ones or Americans)- In the top 25 schools (maximum of maybe 30-50 a year-I have been around so i know some of them)  but it is illegal for schools to implement affirmative action for internationals to attract us. Everyone of us who got to where we are got in through hardwork- very very different from intelligence.

Is there concrete proof that homosexuality is genetic or that people are born that way- probably no, then it would be obviously hereditary -passed from family to family-(An argument I waited patiently for people to come up with that could have destroyed any other further statements on the thread).

So the second part of the question: Is there any contrary evidence that shows it is not?

You need a clear Yes for the second one, and a clear No for the first to disprove the topic of this thread

Sagamite could you keep your posts about my school, It keeps making you look like an ass.

I told you I have nothing against you. I do agree (not sarcastically, that I am slightly arrogant online) but the reason doesn't really stem from my school. It is generally how Americans write, prolly different from nigerian style. I see it a lot in oyinda's post too. I rarely see it in yours, so i would assume you are misconstruing arrogance for style. Also, in person, I accord respect to everyone from a janitor to the CEO of a bank. They are the same people to me- we live, we die. What positions we held in this world are irrelevant. It is what we did that matters. I think I have shown a decent amount of humility and maturity as a 19 year old.

Why is it so hard for you to do so?. Agreed, i might have posted the chimp picture  , boasted about my school, not because of its name but purely out of school pride (I boast about Nigeria right in front of the whole first world). My dad tells me UI is the best school in the world and I never disagree with him.

I expect you to do the same, you don't agree with me, and I don't with you especially on gay rights. No argument i give you will change my mind. None that you give me will make me a bigot. So let us end it there. No need to bring my personal life into this.

I kissed a Boy I liked it The taste of his chappy red lips, I kissed a girl, Just to try it, and I liked it and I invited them for a party in my bedroom

Learn to be competent, inspirational and entertaining, otherwise you will remain irritating.

Advice, not a rap lyric.

Sounded like rap to me. You have given up insulting my school. By the way did u see the picture of my chimp? 

Gay individuals cannot be denied their rights based on emotion. Is there concrete proof against the unnaturallness of homosexuality? No

Homosexuality cannot be seen as a disease or perversion. Those are misnomers. If it is a disease then we should also be able to trace its causes, is it caused by genes, (that in itself it would be probably hereditary too in someway)

Homosexuality is not a mental illness either especially if you know what mental illness means.

Speaking of gay people, they plenty for this world, and they will continue being plenty. Deny them their rights they would go underground and continue the shagging. Drug to cure them?, pseudo science (The drug they use for pedophiles reduces their sex drive not change them to normal sexual behavior, basically castrating them) . Ostracize them, lose the economic and social values that we gain from accepting them.

That doesn't in anyway, answer my question. Is the school so sacred that the name cannot be written?

As I said I know, it isn't sacred, and I consider it a regional school, but privacy- could you tell me what high school, and university you are in? You might be but some of us are uncomfortable. i wouldn't tell you my high school in nigeria, for private reasons too.

Wait just curious are you the one who won a prize or something, remember your posts, you are still in high school yet

yay

Favor , please modify your post that has rumsfeld statement,

"esteemed-better-than-all-UK-but-unfortunate-in-rankings" university.

Gay people are happy too

lalala

^^^

na fight?

Ask sagamite that, because i tried to reason  with him, but it seems impossible. Like its ok, if u have a difference of opinion but not that you should do so in a way that comes across as confrontational. I try and be civil with him, and treat him like a child, petting him and rubbing his ego, especially seeing he argues like one. I usually thought being nice to people would make them at least more reasonable. So, I finally assumed that it must be an animal.

After reading sagamite post, and seeing no logical flow, I have to say no man can be behind that laptop. Na chimp or at the most an internet troll.

Straight from sagamu typing on a laptop without real arguments but his yabbing powers are strong : "who are you"," what do you know", "shut up son" "you lack substance", "what have you done in your life', "you are making moronic statements", "rigmarole", "I work as a strategy analyst in an investment bank", "I will put you in your place."This chimp is having the time of his life.

I don't think so, its just that they are not familiar with it. They just receive a handful of nigerian graduates. Schools try as much as possible to take the best students from around the world, they dont care if you are from a naija school. But they are more familira with people who apply to there schools all the time. AKA Chinese and indian schools

I think the replies to this thread are very insensitive.
Homosexuals are human beings with feelings.
The people here who claim to be good Christians
are judging a fellow human based on their
sexual orientation which is absolutely none of your
business and is up to God to decide.

And to answer the question. I am pretty sure
they are born gay.
I've heard of a few young men that have committed
suicide because they cannot deal with being gay and
fear the reactions of people such as yourselves.

Very true, these are human beings too, why should they be ostracized? What is their crime? How has their crimes being detrimental to society? The as long as it is not me it is crazy argument, that is consistently used on nairaland is appalling.

So being 'Gay' or 'Straight' is a choice, consciously or otherwise

Proof?

Impossible or Have they found genes that carry it?

Everyone is born XY or XX, in some cases crossed or mutated.

Why would someone need scientific backing or 'its natural' backing for their choices.

Why are ADHD kids given extra time to complete exams. Because they have problem concentrating. There peers might complain about it but they were born with it . How do you know, we haven't found the genes yet, but scientific research has shown it is not their fault. Should we decide that since they are not like us, and only a subset of the dominant culture, they shouldn't be allowed to attend schools or take exams?

Do you know how difficult gene mapping is? How are they going to fund their research anyways when there are so many bigots around? Imagine a scientist asking for funds to find the gay gene? Also it is unlikely that in the present future, that they would find the genes that carry it. They would have to consider other influences like the environment.

But using it to source an argument on topical issues like did Jesus sleep with Mary Magdalene or homosexuality is an issue.

Yes, i do. Because wikipedia has reference material for everything it puts down. Follow the paper trail mate. Now read what real researchers (people who dedicated their life to this). This gives you evidence about a topic. That is how to do short-term research. You haven't displayed any research skills. Just the Nigerian style of "roforofo fight with no logical basis" i.e you shout, you scream, you never address the topic, always talking about something irrelevant.  

Speaking of irrelevance,

Q

uick to jump at things without thinking to show (me too, me too) and struggling with the substance of your arguments afterwards and try and bamboozle with I go to a "top" school instead of substance.

When do i mention my school, I rarely use my school for argument, what does that have to do with my argument. I would never do that, and i am not going to start on an internet forum. I have engaged in debates with various schools and I have never seen anyone mention were you go to school in debates.

What you arrogate on (intelligence), you obviously lack a lot of substance and have jejune opinions and now I know you are not in as esteemed an institution as you will like most to believe and neither do you have much achievement to show apart from passing SAT moderately.

Gay people rule

Well, we have the power in Nigeria and that is what matters. None of you and your faggoty friends can come ask for rights and recognition there. That is where it counts.

I knew as usual u wuld resort to name calling. I think you are just baiting me or you are likely an internet troll. Same old tactics, You don't even warrant respect. No show of maturity either. If you want to insult, make another fake thread like you did.

Yeah like if these "gay" friends would leave athe most developed country in the world for third world nigeria. Who is in another man's country? You or the gay people. Just keep disgracing yourself again and again.

Your stance that the UK is LESS liberal than the US and scientist cannot film the nature they want to give an argument or hypothesis on is just ignorance.

I know the british curriculum emphasizes far less on gaining research skills as an undergraduate, but at least you should have learnt some critical thinking. I dont have to spell everything out for you do I? Less liberal means unwilling to Fund research on gay animals. Also BBC/Whatever they have in the UK would also think twice b4 showing a documentary on gay animals. Wouldn't it affect how they are viewed by the uptight british public. Why for example, is their significant information on the percentage of gay people in the US but none in the UK? Considering the fact that the US has far more sophisticated research going on than the UK. However, most of these scientist interested in gay animals would also have to convince film networks to show their research CONTROVERSIAL RESEARCH.

As usual you dismiss claims without addressing them. Keep showing your lack of analytical skills. "Everything is not worthy of your great time" Guess who has the bigger ego?

Seems healthcare and education is the next big thing 

This is the best statement from the article:

At age 44, and after 14 years in finance, Mr. Schor sometimes struggles to come to terms with his new identity. "My daughter said, 'You used to be a banker and now you're a cab driver,';" he says. "I said, 'No. I'm the owner of a transportation service.'"

No condition is permanent 

In a way, I am impressed that some people here actually figured out stuff faster than WSJ, on entrepreneurship and business school/finance.

After some consideration, i think the proponents against business schools- especially those in the US (those in the UK and Nigeria are speaking from a very different perspective) win.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/107768/as-riches-fade-so-does-finances-allure.html?mod=career-salary_negotiation

I think, I have had enough anyways, i am out. I don't see anything coming out from this but the same name-calling. I would just agree to disagree.I am just happy that  the numerous HOMOPHOBES are powerless. When you guys can actually become important enough to affect laws on homosexual behavior then I would be worried. And to do so, you would have to debate it on the international stage with brilliant and talented ethicists who will probably chew you raw. Especially if your argument is attacking the proof and not the actual argument with "you need to a camera and dont believe in scientific papers."

I didn't gain anything much except a lesser opinion of the intellect of my countrymen. Read a well constructed argument against homosexuality, this is brilliant. Compare it to yours- and you would understand why. Notice, that the individual who drafted this piece, did not bother asking for visual evidence. He quoted the scientist and attacked their arguments because everyone knows that scientist think b4 they publish their thesis, it is their reputation on the line. Learn from Him at least because you have only demonstrated a high-school/secondary school style of argument.

http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html

However, don't use him as evidence or copy his intelligence, remember you said you need a camera b4 you believe in anything  .

I have to say Debosky presented brilliant arguments on moral grounds against homosexual discrimination.

So showing me a docu of someone commenting that homosexuality exists ( that the animals are "kissing" and in the second, the guy looks obviously gay) is your strongest proof.

Son, you failed again. I don't know why I am bothering with you.

Did your "evidence" beat the criteria set?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=279591.msg3990475#msg3990475

As a top sociobiologist, you have 2 options:

1) Find the proof that beats this
2) Discredit the requirement

Surely as a scientist they have taught you this lines of argument to harness that you philosophical and biological arguments you claim to possess.

This is the depth of advancement Oyinbo winches are going to film:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMgfCgmDpoo

that you are struggling to provide a simple video of homosexual animals that meet a simple criteria when you came here arrogating "it is very very common in animals".

Don't insult me, none of your arguments have even bear any semblance to a well constructed thesis against homosexuality. It is even hilarious that you use wikipedia to buttress you arguments a lot on Nairaland, and then turn back at some moment and say you dont believe anything till you see it So wiki is ok, for your arguments, but I need camera evidence for mine. What is good for the gander is no more good for the goose?

I would humor myself anyways:

a) The animals for the study must be in their natural setting hence nothing is forcing them to show unnatural traits as the aim of the research is to show a NATURAL behaviour.
b) The animals must have access to both sexes of animals for intercourse but yet specifically choose same sex intercourse over opposite sex intercourse.
c) The gay animals must be a sub-set of the animals not all the animals as this shows some where born gay and some straight, not an overly sexed specie.

These are not proofs they are conditions. But these conditions have been met, read the scientific papers. Or the videos made by people.

d) The subset of gay animals must be decently large percentage of the animals and they frequently demonstrate this desire/behaviour. It is not a SINGLE, RARE OCCURRENCE which shows a crazed animal. Remember a crazed animal is not a gay animal. Otherwise all we have proved is that animals too have mad ones.

Is not a required condition i.e isn't a requirement for naturality by scientific standards. Also it cannot be crazed behavior since no homosexual animals are not discriminated against by other members of their species. I hope you know that animals respond, just like humans to socially deviant behavior even so to behave that could reduce the species chances for survival. So why don't animals react to other homosexual animals: duh, maybe it is natural.

What is your definition of a large percentage- be specific 50%, 40%, 30% then the species would have become extinct. Then we would have no evidence anyways (remember we are not debating about the long term effects of homosexuality) just its occurence in species. In addition[b]what criteria are you using to set that threshold anyways?[/b]  i.e why does the number of animals possessing homosexuality have to do with its "naturality'.My dear, I am really having fun. Keep calling me son, who is your daddy? 

e) There is penetration and ejaculation as this shows that it is actually a pleasurable sexual intercourse that has resulted from AROUSAL of the mating animals and they want to get at it just like different sex do.

Another exhibition of your lack of knowledge of biology. Sexual behavior is not pleasurable to all animals. But if you really want that as a criteria read the papers, I am not going to do the research for you. It is all there.

f) Ideally also show that there is exhibition of mating rituals between the animals as this proves that those gays that behave (talk, dress, walk etc) like the opposite sex are not some demented souls but this criterion is relaxable as I know it is hard to show.
g) Ideally also show at least 10 different types of animals that demonstrate all these, but this is also relaxable because I am confident one cannot even be found.

Yeah, scientist have found homosexuality in 1500 species, while a nonscientist claims that these gay scientist are liars and dealing with an agenda. GREAT.

It seems you missed the point that I was allocating the claim that "Masturbation is worse than homosexuality" as yours.

Huh

UK government is conservative?  Undecided

Read well "a more conservative country" than the US. The US is very liberal compared to the UK, that is why it is difficult to find an actual documentary on gay animals. How ever if you switch to the US there are a lot of documentaries on gay animals. Most of them are not on Youtube, I have already checked, you would have to buy the material (CD). If you want a list i would give it to you, go and watch, then come back and say gay people made the documentary  .

Well, in my young views, I like to see evidence. I didn't just chop anything someone put in front of me as "scientific papers" because they have a "Prof" or "Dr" pre-fixing their name or a "Phd" post-fixing their name and almost always someone with some deviancy.

In this days and era, I would expect any credible scientist that is intending on convincing me on such a sensitive issue to buy a camera and carry it along to film what he is researching.

If a can't afford the camera, I can guarantee you there are a large number of Pink organisations or Billionaires that will be more than willing to be benefactors.

So you can't trust a scientist or the journal, which publishes them. I might have an ego  - who doesn't-but nothing[i] I have said is wrong[/i]. You on the otherhand are making the same mistakes using like faulty logic. FYI, scientist place a lot on their reputation on their field, and would think carefully b4 they publish fabricated statistics.

Scientist don't carry camera to film what their researching. Like man, I am really beginning to doubt it is a human that is on that computer. Are you actual flaming me   . So who do you want to believe, every video I show you has gay people in them   . Man u are just making me laugh. HAHAHA. I showed you national geographic, you say gay people.

I[i]n addition you consistently present another contradiction in your argument. You complain that the people who are gay, would use animals to justify their homosexuality as a lie. Well in a similar vein, non-gays are incapable of presenting any real research on homosexuality because they would be biased towards showing it as a deviancy. Mate you are simply saying every evidence you present yourself is biased because your motive is to show that homosexuality is abnormal.[/i]