₦airaland Forum

ayoku777:
No one was holy under the law, but by the standard of being God's holy (set apart) people; YES. Every jew was holy in that context -until they rejected Christ.

You can't be an uncircumsized gentile and be a people of God or be grafted into Him under the law.

If they were truly Holy before they rejected Christ, why did Christ come?

Why was John preahing repentance and Holiness to a Holy people?

ayoku777:
I don't like it when I take the time to type and show scriptures with explanation, but someones just ignores them and just picks on a line he can continue the argument with.

It looks like the person is just attempting to wiggle his way through the dicourse.

If the bible says; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Does that mean unbelievers too are holy? Since the entire gentile world are grafted inot Christ -believers and unbelievers alike?

Because it is getting scary to see you saying unbelievers have been grafted into Christ.

Don't belittle saving faith. How can anyone who doesn't have the spirit of Christ be engrafted into Him.

Sorry if you feel that way...

I was going somewhere with my question, and I expected a direct answer not an answer to clamp a potential question.

As for the branch being holy because they are part of the treee.. I will then ask if the entire Jewish nation was Holy before they got cut off?

ayoku777:
[size=20pt]Jesus died for the whole world [/size]
.

Was there a time the Gentile nation as a whole had no opportunity to be saved?

ayoku777:
The reason every jew, good or bad, were grafted into God under the law was because the condition was simply to be a seed of Abraham after the flesh. A condition met by everyone born a jew.

But to be grafted into Christ now, you need to be a seed of Abraham after the Spirit. Do the entire gentile world meet this condition.
Are athiest and budhists seedo of Abraham after the spirit?

Let me show you another point about how Paul describes those that are grafted to Christ.

Romans 11v16 -For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES.

Anyone grafted into Christ is imputed with the holiness of the root.

If every unbeliever is grafted as you said, then the entire gentile world is holy.

So NO NO, only believing gentiles are grafted, they are the only ones holy like the branch and the seed of Abraham after the spirit. Not the entire gentile race.

Being grafted does not mean the OPPORTUNITY of being nourished, being grafted is BEING NOURISHED.

Was the death of Jesus for the Holy or for the entire sinful world?

ayoku777:
Faith might be misused but I don't misuse it. Faith is faith in who Christ is and what He did according to the scriptures. That He is the Messiah the Son of the Living God; and that He dided for our sins and rose for our justification.

This is faith according to the scriptures.

Now, is it the entire gentile world that is standing by this faith? Because it was the gentiles that "standeth by this faith" that Paul was addressing in Romans 11.

Those are the gentiles grafted into Christ; and those are the only gentiles that can be cut off if they don't continue in faith.

As for the issue of Romans 8. It was talking about a believer who sins, not one who stops believing in Christ.

A believer is not cut of from God when he sins, he is cut off when he stops believing. The two scemarios are different.

I think you're not being explicit about your stand. Let me help.

Do you believe the entire gentile world has been grafted into Christ? Or only gentiles who believe in Christ.

Because to be cut off, you need to be grafted first. So if the cutting off is for the entire gentile world, then you mean they are presently grafted into Christ. Christians, muslims, athiest are all grafted into Christ according to you.

But if it is only believing gentiles that are grafted, then it means the warning of being cut off is also to them. Which nullifies the OSAS doctrine.

Remember you've also not given the flipside of the statements we gave in explanation to names not being blotted out.

Those who get 70% in the test will not be removed from the state bursary

OR

Those who pass the training exercise will not be resigned.

Does this statements automatically explain what will happen to those who don't pass?

Romans 11
12 Now if the fall of them be the[size=20pt] riches of the world[/size], and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the [size=20pt]Gentiles[/size], I magnify mine office:


Before dealing with the issue of faith, can we both agree that according to the above quote, Paul was referring to the world?

Do you understand my position here

@Ayoku..

I said earlier that the entire Jewish race- bad or good were all grafted in to God by the promise made to Abraham. This does not exempt a transgressor of the law from being punished or killed. At this time, we see few exceptions where Gentiles become proselytes.

So also, the entire Gentile world- good or bad were also grafted in to God after the Jewish nation stumbled. This also does not mean anyone who fails to accept the gift of the gospel won't face the wrath of God. Now, Jews now need to adopt this present way of being righteous through Jesus and nothing to be saved.

Being grafted does not mean you are a Christian, it means there is an opportunity to be nourished from the source.

@Ayoku..

I said earlier that the entire Jewish race- bad or good were all grafted in to God by the promise made to Abraham. This does not exempt a transgressor of the law from being punished or killed. At this time, we see few exceptions where Gentiles become proselytes.

So also, the entire Gentile world- good or bad were also grafted in to God after the Jewish nation stumbled. This also does not mean anyone who fails to accept the gift of the gospel won't face the wrath of God. Now, Jews now need to adopt this present way of being righteous through Jesus and nothing to be saved.

Being grafted does not mean you are a Christian, it means there is an opportunity to be nourished from the source.

ayoku777:
Well, he also said "...and thou standeth by faith."

He was talking to gentiles that stand by faith -and that can only be christian gentiles. Not the general gentile world.

Unbelieving gentiles don't stand by faith. They are not among the grafted.

It is not enough to say 'well, he also said ...'. The man clearly mentioned those he was addressing, didn't he?

I also think the most miused word in christendom is the word- 'Faith'.

If you get to this chapter to say christians can be cut off from God, that means Romans 8 which explains the work of the Holy Spirit in us is completely wrong.

Is Paul saying if we boast to the Jews then we lose our salvation as christians.. Is that what the passage is saying?

ayoku777:
Because the entire gentile world are not grafted into Christ, only gentiles who believe in Christ -the same way it is for the jews now.

The idea of being cut off only addresses believing gentiles. Unless you believe both believing and unbelieving gentiles have been grafted into Christ

When the Jews got cut off, a remnant was selected and left attached to the tree e.g Apostle Paul.

If the Gentiles get cut off, do you think Christians will be part of those cut off or will there also be part of the elect?

The entire metaphor refers to a time when God was all about the nation of Israel. After the cut, they no longer hold the same position because God moved to the Gentiles. Gentiles now have the opprtunity to say 'yes' to God to live or say 'No' to die. The same way it was with the Jews all through the Old Testament.
Acts 28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Notice how Paul did not say, 'they will believe' but 'they will listen'.

Paul clearly says 'Gentiles' in Romans 11, if you think he meant 'christians', please show us why you think so from the chapter.

@ayoku

Please give one reason within that chapter that made you conclude Paul wasn't speaking to the entire Gentile world?

italo:
Ephesians 5:3-4
But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

Rev 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

None of these quotes say anything about working to become a saint rather they talk about what is expected of a saint. Where did you get the idea the works you claim initially add to qualify the corinthians as Saint?

If you can't find one passage in the bible that supports your statement, don't you think your idea to what is requisite to qualify as Saint might just be wrong?

italo:
Then why did he baptize anyone at all?

Christ told his apostles to baptize all nations, including Corinthians. Are you saying these men disobeyed Christ?

Can you not see the progressive nature of events as time went on! At one point Paul baptised people himself with water and he could count how many people he did that with. A time came when he declared, this isn't what Christ is saying I should do now. He says I should preach the gospel. The water baptism was obviously from the time of John, but the baptism that comes by the gospel isn't with water but by the Holy Spirit.

italo:
Yes. But he separated himself from Jesus - full of grace and truth.

Did Jesus get his pronouncement about Judas wrong?

Does Jesus really see beyond the present?

italo:
In Rom11:20, Paul said: "They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith.." Those are not unbelievers, but Christians.

You're lying shamelessly.

Who are the 'you' in the verse, could it be christians or the entire Gentile nation?

When the Jews were broken off, was it because of the disobedience of the few disciples of Christ or the entire Jewish nation?

italo:
The Bible says Abraham was justified.

Who should we believe, the Bible or a confused heretic?

The entire bible did not say that, a section did say that and this section happen to be the temple worshipper, law observing, Jewish tradition adherent Section of the bible. Moving forward, a man came with a gospel that does not add works (in any form or shape) to the finished work of Christ.

Philipians 3:3
For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort,

No human effort- we have no confidence in what we can achieve ourselves in the flesh.

italo:
1John5:16: "There is sin that leads to death."

Keep fooling yourself.

You don't take time to study, do you? Read properly to see what the bible is saying, don't gloss over when reading.

Asides from the fact that the book does not say there is a sin that leads a Christian to hell, you have to come to a realisation of neo-judaism Christianity and outright Christianity.

Ubenedictus:
Simple question.


i am of the spirit.

Now the interesting question.

Is it posible for one in the spirit to do the work of the flesh?

In other words, can the justified sin?

Very possible, but that don't make them dead to the spirit, does it?.As one of the spirit you are motivated by things of the spirit just as one in the flesh is with things of the flesh. One in the flesh will hardly feel a sense of guilt while one of spirit will always be pricked by what they know about the Word.

Ubenedictus:
Hehehehe,

you came with the idea of those "called", i reference the scripture that say many are called few are chosen and you came back throwing pauline scriptures around.
Let us take a look!



you are argueing against your own strawman.
I never said that man has the ability to justify or sanctity or glorify himself. I NEVER SAID THAT.

But since you brought up scriptures about those who God foreknew and called, i'll show you the people who God first foreknew.



Roman 11

I ask, then, has God rejected his
people? By no means! For I myself
am an Israelite, a descendant of
Abraham, 1 a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah,
how he appeals to God against Israel?
3 l “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.”
4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.



This is what happened to the first people who God foreknew, NOT ALL OF THEM WERE SAVED, ONLY A REMNANT WAS SAVED.

So i'm also telling you, not all who he foreknew will be saved, not all who are called are chosen.

How was your day?

He chose some by Grace--- Free gift of salvation

The Jewish nation botched it but they were never justified. However, God still have them in His plan according to promise. The promise to the churh is better, way better than the promise to the nation of Israel. The bible says they have only stumbled, they will rise as a nation when the fullness of Gentile
Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

So when it comes to God's promise to the elect/the church, it is sealed. But the Gentile world as a whole is getting to a place where Israel was when they crucified their king. Paul was sending a message to the Gentile world and not to the saved christians.

italo:
I'm showing you how your heresy is contradicting John and you're asking me an unrelated question to evade the issue.

Did he Paul say it isn't by works? Its a simple question, don't be shy.

italo:
John said he who lacks love for brother cannot be saved. He who does not keep God's commandments cannot be saved. You're contradicting him.

hmm, really!!! Did he really say that, you understand you can't add to the written word?

Is John the Apostle God appointed to me, me being a Gentile?

italo:
From my head. Why should I regard your bible dictionary?

Get yourself a study material, you goofed with the definition, you don't want to embarass yourself beyond NL, do you?

italo:
Yes..

I can definitely give you verses that state clearly how christians got the 'saint' status. By these works that you have listed, can you help with a part of scripture that says you become a saint by them?

italo:
He did baptize some. And the fact that he didn't baptize the rest doesn't mean they weren't baptized by another person. Jesus asked that all peoples should be baptized. The Corinthians knew this, unlike you who doesn't know...

He listed the few he baptised and said emphatically that Jesus did not send him to come and baptise but to preach the gospel. Where exactly did you get the idea that the corinth church got baptised by someone else?

italo:
He said it about the 12, not Judas specifically. Judas didn't cooperate with that plan and was replaced. No need for another example..

Cooperate!!

Was Judas part of the twelve when Christ said it?

italo:
Paul was speaking to Christians. He said they stood by faith. Stop fooling yourself.


Both.

If you don't understand the setting, look closer. Paul stopped speaking about Christians in chapter 8, he poke about Israele through chapter 9, 10 and 11 and returned to the church at 12.

Look closer, you might just see.

italo:
You're now deliberately saying gibberish.

You said a Christian can lack love for his brother and go to heaven. St. John says that person will not go to heaven. You're contradicting him with your heresy.

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Did Paul say this? yes or no

italo:
Peter never said Paul is the only place to turn for the word of salvation. He said Paul had written to them about what he was talking about.
Why then did the Holy Spirit make them Peter, James, John, Jude, Mark, Luke write about salvation?

Are their writings on salvation true or false?

What did they say about salvation by the finished work of Christ?

italo:
My head. Where is yours from?

From my bible dictionary, yours?

italo:
They prayed. They participated in the sacraments, like baptism, eucharist etc, they kept God's commandments, they lived and suffered for Jesus.
?

So, if one gets baptised, keep God's commandment and suffer for Jesus, he is then qualified to be callled a saint, is that what you are saying?

Unfortunately, Paul did not baptise any of these people with water, so baptism is definitely out of it.

italo:
How many more do you want?
No. It is a good example. Judas did not cooperate with the plan in the verse below which was the plan of God for everybody.

Matt 19:28 “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
You're lying.

If Jesus said this of Judas, you think he was wrong?

He made a mistake?

He didn't really know past the present?

Since this one is a moot example, help with another one.

italo:
Rom11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.

You mean non Christians are "standing through faith?"

There is no trick or lie you'll not use to protect your heresy.


Christians are saints...and sinners. That is what 1Cor6:9 said. Why are you asking me again?

Paul was speaking to a nation and not individuals, isn't it?

Will the fall of Gentiles affect me personally? Read to understand the chapter properly.

The Jewish nation have been broken off quite alright, does that mean the elects who come into Christ will not be saved?

italo:
Christians are saints...and sinners. That is what 1Cor6:9 said. Why are you asking me again?

When God sees a Christian, does he see him as a sinner or as saint?

italo:
And you say a Christian can lack love for brother and go to heaven...while St. John calls one who doesn't love brother a murderer who cannot have eternal life.

You are contradicting St. John with your heresy..

Did I write Romans 5? It says love for God is the work of the Holy Spirit. You see how contradictions appear when you don't divide rightly?

italo:
Are you then saying Gentiles too are obliged to love brother by that passage?

Please come out clear, stop rigmarolling. Are the teachings of John, James, Peter applicable to Jewish Christians only or Jewish and Gentile Christians?

NB Darkness also means evil.

Of course they are applicable to us because we can learn off them. But Peter mentioned where to turn for the Word/gospel of salvation-
2 Pet 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;


Where is your definition of darkness from?

italo:
I said they did many things. E.g sufferingvfor Christ. I didn't say that any body who is punched or hungry is automatically a saint. Stop playing dumb.

Do you mind stating these other things they did which made them qualified to be called 'saints'/separated/consecrated?

italo:
Because Jesus came that all might be saved, including Judas. Jesus didn't come for only you.

He didn't save anyone until He died and rose, did He?

italo:
Sorry, I dont believe in this your two gospels bullshit. Even in Paul's writings, it tells us that believers can be cut off from God if they dont continue in his kindness.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


St. Paul doesn't keep record of the names of people in hell...but he tells us the kind of people that can go to hell...and that includes believers.

1Cor6:9

You know Judas is a wrong example to use, don't you?


Rom 11:22 spoke about a Gentile nation and not Christians. It says the Jews were cut off because of their unbelief, didn't it? If you want us to go through that chapter I am game.

1cor 6 Are christians unrighteous or saints? Still waiting for the things they did that made them saints, so we can analyse what de-saints them.

italo:
Answer based on your understanding of faith...as I have been answering you based on my understanding of the words being talked about.

Is faith in God enough to get one to heaven, or is love of God too needed?.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

The love of God is imputed when we accept the faith, so it is impossible for a genuine christian to lack love for God.

italo:
John said whoever does not love his brother:

1. "Is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes." (1John2:11)

2. "Is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1John3:15)

And you say a Christian can love God, not love his brother and go to heaven.

You're contradicting the Bible with your heresy.

Also, are you saying that only Jewish Christians are obliged to love their brothers, and not Gentiles?

Then tell me which books in the Bible were addressed to Gentile Christians.

Bro, we can keep going round this issue without progress if you readily lock your mind. I have not said most of what you are asking here.

NB darkness means ignorance'

italo:
Many things. E.g They endured suffering for the Lord. Read 2Cor1...from verse 3.

So when you suffer, you are declared a saint?

italo:
Yes. God's grace was there for Judas. He didn't cooperate.

God stands at the door knocking. He doesn't break the door and enter (Rev 3:20)

What gives you the impression that te intent of God's grace was to stop Judas from doing what he did?

If we are saying the gospel of salvation by grace came with Paul's gospel, how does that apply to Judas?

Please give one example of anyone who heard Paul's gospel and yet suffered condemnation.

italo:
You are still avoiding my question. Answer based on your understanding of faith.?

I am not. How do we come to a common understanding if the meanings behind the words we are talking about is different?

italo:
So you say one can be a Christian, yet not love his brother. And you say one cannot be a Christian without loving God.

Summary: a christian can love God and not love his brother.

The Bible says the opposite.

1John4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[c] he love God whom he has not seen?

What now? 1John was written to Jews only or John was ignorant?

John isn't saying the condition for salvation is when you love your brother, is he? He is only saying you can't be saying you love God and not produce the fruit. If you say you love God, it shows in your attitude..vooks being a perfect example.

Like you have rightly pointed out you cannot find one word of Church or what we call Church – the Age of Grace – language in epistles of John Peter and James. In other words, there’s no reference to the Body of Christ. There’s no reference to the working and the controlling of the Holy Spirit - as over against the keeping of the Law - it’s ‘legal.’ It’s not that the Spirit is going to control us, but that they have to go by what James is telling them. There is no Grace-Age language in there either. You also won’t find the plan of salvation in these Jewish epistles.

italo:
By God's doing...and their doing.

What did they do to deserve being called 'saints'?

italo:
No it doesn't mean that. His grace is sufficient but ineffective if you don't cooperate with his grace.

God's grace can be ineffective if a christian does not cooperate?

italo:
But I have been answering you. Why are you now avoiding my questions?

Do you want me to pâste my pending questions?

italo:
So it takes more than faith in God to be a Christian, love too is needed?

May be when we both understand what we mean by Faith, we will know the role love plays in having faith.

What is faith?

italo:
Can one be a Christian, yet not love his brother?

Why not? You can be a Christian and yet be carnal, can't you?

vooks:
You are not totally dumb praise be to Jesus. With effort and patience you can learn

So, what were you bleating about Paul 'personalising' bla de bla

And BTW, if I can't quote Acts because revelation was in progress bla bla bla, then neither can you! Now, using the Epistles, Pauline and Peter's, demonstrate the DIFFERENCE between Paul's gospel and Peter's/James'

My dear friend, I am done with your folly- I have laughed enough for a day, save your jokes for another time.

vooks:
Puny brains, you have been dying to catch me in error?

Man is made in the image of God....all men. Animals and plants reproduce AFTER their kind so when Adam sired after his likeness which is after God's likeness,he sired after God's image

So, the bible that says - 'When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth' should be edited, right?

When Adam died, what did he lose?

italo:
So it takes more than faith in God to be a Christian, love too is needed?

Can one be a Christian, yet not love his brother?

What is faith and how do you get to have faith?

I had some questions for you, hope you didn't miss them?

vooks:
You are now dancing azonto and palongo hopping from one irrelevant idi0cy to another.

Can we FIRST agree that according to Paul's OWN words in Ephesians 3:3-6,

1. A mystery was REVEALED?
2. It was REVEALED to the apostleS?
3. The mystery is, 'Gentiles are fellow heirs?
4. The mystery was revealed by Holy Spirit

We can quote the entire scriptures but if you are too blinded by doctrines of men to admit such simple and obvious truths,it won't help nothing

Don't play dumb with me now, you are the pin head smart one, isn't it?

I agree with the four points...

Now move on to the gospel that does the work of salvation and how to be saved...Rom 1:16, Rom 10

NOOOOO.. They were not made in God's image but in the image of the fallen man- Adam.

Did you goof.. Mr critic?

Do you agree unbelievers are not made in God's own image and likeness but in Adam's image and likeness?

vooks:
Not everybody is Eistein but surely,is this an excuse for m0ronic comprehension?

Ephesians 3:6 English Standard Version (ESV)

6 This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Eph 1:1
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,

Do you understand that asides the mystery that surrounds the knowledge revealing the adoption of Gentiles, there is a mysterious message of the good news of Christ that was revealed to Aposle Paul?