₦airaland Forum

Hiswordxray:
John is saying a believer can also commit the sin of unbelief.
Paul seem to agree with him when he warned believers not to commit the sin of unbelief (Heb 4:11) like Israelites commit (Heb 3:19).
Or do you think you are wiser than both of them.

No No No!

16 If you see a fellow believer[d] sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life.(He stopped speaking about a believer at this point)

But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those(these are not believers, a believer can't commit the sin of unbelief) who commit it. 17 All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death.

He went on to the next verse to speak about believers

18 We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.


Hebrews were not believers, they were neither here nor there.

Hiswordxray:
Yes...
Not by work but by faith and faith without work is death - Reconcile Rom 4:4-5 and James 2:26.
Or do you think they can not be in harmony.

They are not, this gospel of Faith without Works was what made Paul public enemy number 1. Nobody physically suffered as much as this man for the faith, he caused problems every time he goes around the Jews.

James gospel permitted Works- these works were not just that of being charitable, it included other Jewish traditions. Paul's gospel expunged all of those additions to say only Faith in the gospel leads to justification and salvation.

BabaGnoni:
[
We doing semantics again are we. Hmm? The below quote/copyright:
- "faith here does not mean trust, it means 'trust-worthiness'/fidelity" - © shdemidemi
- someone must have stopped or discontinued earlier on in the "faith here does not mean trust, it means 'trust-worthiness'/fidelity"
to prompt the heads up in 1 Tim 2: 15

No semantics bro...

It's quite clear if you use other translations.

Hiswordxray:
Yes I think the Sin the lead to death is unbelief and John is saying believers can commit this sin.

But 'unbelief' is different from one who had once believed, isn't it?

@Bidam

I so hate you this morning , sometimes you just get me confused. Is it like there is a multi ownership of your moniker or what?

You don talk true today, I respect it but hmm, the way you take a U-turn sometimes.

vooks:
Eternal security is an invention of Calvin and is a central tenet Calvinism and the various creeds emanating from it. Guys are busy defending dead men and their systems and they won't let facts confuse them

When you think about it,there is a continuum of beliefs from Eternal Insecurity where NOBODY is sure of their eternity to Eternal Security where your eternity is so sealed and NOTHING you do can undo that.

There is a wealth of scriptures against both position. I believe in Conditional Security. You are assured of your eternity as long as you remain in faith. You depart from faith and you are damned.

You are watching too much youtube critics... pick your bible- forget calvin or what he stands for- open the bible to see if what he said is supported by scripture or not.

I think that is a better way to go about it, you sure think otherwise.

Hiswordxray:
Aren't we justified so that we can be saved?
Or can we be saved without being justified?
Now James said "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Just accept that you don't know so that we can teach you.
Like I said before there is a difference between works of the flesh and works of faith.

You are not following this convo closely enough my friend- What you have said there, is it the same as this-
Romans
4 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? 2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. 3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[a]

4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

BabaGnoni:
The teasers however are the what ifs.
What would be the implication, if Adam had stopped short eating the fruit?
What was Adam's motive for not stopping short of taking the fruit off Eve and going along with her offer that he eat the fruit?
Was Adam being preemptive in taking and eating the fruit?
Was Adam being selfless and killing two birds with one stone?

Except you want to attempt any or all of the above conundrums, I suppose this is not the day to "push this as far as we want"


How do you reconcile "Eve never lost faith..." with 1 Timothy 2:14-15 then?

If "Eve never lost faith in God" what was 1 Timothy 2:15 implying then where it says "women will be saved if they continue in faith"

¹⁴And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
¹⁵But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
- 1 Timothy 2:14-15 New American Standard Bible

I have faith in my SatNav 9 out of 10 times, the one odd time, is where I lose my faith in it, there I disobey its instruction
and take another route than the one the SatNav voice gives because I know of a quicker or faster alternativer

It hadnt come to weakness of flesh yet when Adam & Eve lost faith in the word of God and the subsequent disobedience
Many things make people lose faith and disobey
I gave one in my SatNav illustration, during Eve's experience, she gave three...

Baba G, Can I disobey without losing faith?
1 Tim 2
15 But women will be saved through childbearing,[c] assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

This is an example of where you don't play the flip side card. Well, faith here does not mean trust, it means 'trust-worthiness'/fidelity.

Hiswordxray:
I think you need to help us interpret these verses:
"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." (1John 5:16-17).

What is a sin unto death today?

It is unbelief! That is the sin against the Holy Spirit because you ignore the offer of Grace, Mercy, justification from God.

Use a simpler version, it might help-

16 If you see a fellow believer[d] sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it. 17 All wicked actions are sin, but not every sin leads to death.

18 [size=22pt]We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them[/size]. 19 We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.

Tell me what you think now.

Hiswordxray:
So you are saying Paul's writing is inspired by the Spirit why James writing is not inspired by the Spirit?
Are you satisfied Paul is a Christian while James (one of Jesus disciple) is in Judaism?
Can you ear yourself?

I never said one is inspired and the other isn't, it would have been better if you asked me what I meant before making your own summations.

Hiswordxray:
Well... the two views are in perfect agreement.
Those verse you quoted from different versions are in perfect harmony with what James said.

Let me bring it out:
We are saved by grace through works.
And Yes, grace with work is not grace
Perfect harmony...

There is a difference between works of flesh and works of faith.

Stop it! They are not in harmony, you can bend it as you want but GRACE + nothing for salvation is different from GRACE+ Works for salvation.

The best way I will interpret it if I were to be on your side is that James was not talking about salvation in this chapter, he only need people to put in the work because they have been saved.

Ubenedictus:
here it comes, the theory of two gospels! One for paul and another for others.

Are you going to address issues or impose what we must believe?

BabaGnoni:
Interesting again...
You seemed to have stepped right in it shdemidemi
Until the recent past, I used wonder a lot why Adam took the fruit and ate, I had some many guesses
and then I stumbled upon this other one but hey that's for another day

Anyway Adam didnt and wasnt[/b] "calling God's bluff" (i.e. Adam understood death, as a result of, as you said, he chatted with God)

Regarding "he was only deceived to disobey the instructions God gave[/b]" [b]The bible doesnt support this or say so, rather the bible says, Adam was not deceived (i.e. 1 Timothy 2:14)

Regarding also "Nobody lost faith in God". [b]The bible doesnt support this or say so either rather the bible suggests [b]Eve lost faith [/b]and says women will be saved if they continue in faith (i.e. 1 Timothy 2:15)

Ok, we can push this as far as you want . Eve and Adam are one as far as God is concerned, thus why they both suffered the consequence of Eve's action. Remember she was made out of man and not created from dust like Adam.

We have a myriad of passages that put the blame directly on Adam without mentioning Eve. Paul divided these two only when it came to position of authority within the church. Asides this Adam and Eve remain inseparable like the church and Jesus are inseparable.

Eve never lost faith in God, the bible never said that, she disobeyed God's instruction. I can have faith but disobey due to the weakness of my flesh, can't I?.

vooks:
Hail shdemidemi,King of semantics and word play, he of the speaking-in-tongues vs speaking-in-an-unknown-tongue BS

I keep on saying that Google can't increase your IQ and am always accused of insulting people

Dust your bible my friend and stop boring us with your arguments.

Present what you believe, it isn't enough to just be a critic.

BabaGnoni:
Interesting...
Please expatiate on the two bolds above
- also would like to have examples and scripture you are linking them with

Paul explained what it means to be baptised- complete immersion in Rom 6

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


I don't believe any believer can be put back to death after this spiritual baptism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I say 'rebelled', not against the faith but against what is accepted within the gathering of believers.
1 cor 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

Paul used similar language against fellow believers and workers who went against the gospel
1 TIM 1:20
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

BabaGnoni:
Did Adam, in "disobeying constituted authority", not depart from the faith, faith in the word of God then?
If Adam didnt lose faith, who lost faith in Eden then?
Did any party lose faith in Eden at all?
I anticipated you might play the semantic-with-the-meaning-of-faith move

I can disobey you without losing faith in you. More like calling your bluff. Adam had fellowship with God, only God knows how long for, He knew who is creator is, they chat- the bible says God walked to Adam. There was no doubt in his mind about God's capacity or capability, he was only deceived to disobey the instructions God gave.

Nobody lost faith in God, they all disobeyed their maker including Mr serpent/satan. They all knew who God is and what He represented, what was oblivious to Adam and Eve was the ramification of their disobedience.

BabaGnoni:
Is apostasy not departing from the faith? Yes or No

A BIG ONE-

One issue of apostasy was not registered or addressed within all of the epistles that form the framework and blueprint of the Christian tenets. People rebelled but were never condemned to be heading to hell in any of the churches- from Corinth to Collossae.

I will not assume that a believer can die after being raised by Christ from the dead.

BabaGnoni:
What are your many definitions and/or meaning of faith?
- Make it a honest and exhaustive one

Primarily,[size=20pt] Faith is ones conviction based upon what he/she hears[/size].

In Christianity, it is used of faith in God, Jesus or things spiritual.

Aside this definition, faith is used in different context in the bible, I will use different quotes to demonstrate the different uses of the word 'FAITH'.

TRUST

1 cor 2:5
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Faith as used in the above quote can be translated 'TRUST'.

TRUST WORTHINESS
Gal 5

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Faith as used here is 'trust worthiness' or 'FIDELITY' which is different from the context of the first.

CONTENTS OF BELIEF
GAL 1
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.


There is more but I will stop there to go the most popular and conventional use.

SIZE/DEGREE/WEIGHT (You can fit in any standard unit to measure) OF TRUST
MATT 6
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Only Jesus used this form of rebuke in the entire scripture. I go further, this kind of 'faith' is different even in the Greek word used to the 'faith' used in every other part of scripture.

It is OLIGOPISTIS and not PISTIS like the rest of FAITH we see all over scripture.

vooks:
I have never claimed to know all but I sure can sniff garbage from miles off. You got problem with that? Aks God who made me thus

Don't shove your nauseating attributes to God, rather deal with it with His Word. Get objective, make your point without expecting it to be a rule I must accept or share. Beyond that, make scripture the judge of what is garbage and what isn't..

BabaGnoni:
Bro... I dey kampe! Following your tail lights!!
I blew my horn on one or two of your posts, but you didnt do same back, until now on this my post about Adam

Right. Hmm. Sharp guy, I can see where you are coming at me from on this:

That Adam actually believed the word of God but wilfully (i.e. intentionally and determinedly) went against it
That Adam's faith in the word of God that "death shall surely happen" was there, intact.
That Adam was not deceived but rather it was Eve who was deceived and who lost the faith
I see a stalemate in this as opposed to you checkmating, if I didn't, I would have thrown in a towel
Depending on your next response and whether you want to play a semantic move, you might even get checkmated

Thank God bro

I certainly will not ignore your posts if addressed to to me with a conscious intent to do so. I didn't see them, I read your post even when it isn't addressed to me and they are often worth a read, if you don't mind you can post them again.


As for Adam, I think the right word is 'disobedience' and not lack of faith. I don't think that is really worth arguing about.

The man does not see the disparity between the Hebrews and Christians, he thinks they are one and the same. Hence, what applies to a Jew (Hebrew) who mix Jesus with Judaism is applicable to a Christian who 'back slide'. What you posted might just fly over his head.

vooks:
There was a man who used to beg his friends to hold him tightly every time he lost his cool lest he he beats up somebody. One day he was offended and he begged them and they did. But they released him and he was beaten up so bad.

Bring it on negro, make my day. Trust me if I was to lose my faith, it would not be over harebrained half-misunderstood garbage

This is your best part of the discourse, isn't it?

Exchanging those lines with you was my way of letting you spit out what you have been willing to do all along. Enough of all those childishness, get back to God's business- not vooks business so no need to get personal with it.

No competition, no imposition of ideas, share your understanding while I share mine, we just might come out better christians. That is if you agree we both don't know it all.

vooks:
Lol is for your teenage kids you never had

1. Were believers before resurrection justified?

2. If not, at what point were they justified?

Stop asking answered questions my dear friend, you are not deranged that I think I am sure of.

vooks:
Bidam my broda,
There is so much garbage there and the onus is on its adherents to present their version and we examine it. If it is so scriptural, do they want vooks to perish or remain in the dark?

Be very wary of 'new' doctrines

Pauline doctrine is nothing new my friend, it has been there since Paul got saved. Exegetical study of scriptures shouldn't be frowned at either.

you might just end up like Frosbel after that thread because you will be forced to make a choice between The Bible and Vooks' 'puny' enormous cerebral capacity.

vooks:
You are full of unintelligible glib.
Were they justified before the death of Jesus Christ?

If not, at what point were they justified

Lol..Guess you thought you had a checkmate question you can dwell on. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

I know objectivity is not your forte neither is comprehension, I advice you take time to read the post again it might just resonate if you revise long enough.

vooks:
I can't start a thread to disprove what you believe because I don't even know what you do believe seeing there are several shades of Dispensationalism. That's Logic 101 but puny brains overheat over such stuff

I smell a coward behind this post...are you there vooksy?

vooks:
Were the disciples before Jesus' death justified?

Justification by faith as we have it in the epistles of Paul isn't what they had before the passion of Christ.

They were justified to be a part of the kingdom Jesus came to earth to establish with the nation of Israel. But as a nation, israel denied its king..
John 1:11
New International Version
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

The speaker for the disciples asked Christ just before ascension-
Acts 1:6
New International Version
Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

To Peter, it was all about the kingdom and the disciples will definitely be a part of the Kingdom of God.

To Apostle Paul it was not about 'Israel' getting restored as a kingdom where Jesus rules, it is now about the world getting saved through justification to be a part of the God's Kingdom. Not just for Israel anymore but for anyone who believe.

vooks:
It's your junk. Teach the world and ask the mod to shut me out else you won't get past your first line of garbage

Of course you are a coward,a weeping coward. Can I get you some more kleenex?

Go ahead if you so desire...are you bitter that you're not having your way, awww

Make that mention boy let's look in to scripture.

vooks:
You haven't answered me.
Let me rephrase

Peter believed in Jesus BEFORE His death and persisted after. At what exact point was he justified? At the death or resurrection of Jesus or at Pentecost?

The condition for Pater's salvation was on the premise that 'Jesus is indeed the son of God' plus repentance. That is not the same for me today, I must believe in my heart that He died, He was buried and He rose to be saved.

vooks:
Am allergic to BS
1. Did Paul teach 7 dispensations? Yes/no

2. Did anybody before John Darby teach 7 dispensations?

A clear scripture showing how you will perish and end up in hell is rejected because of
1. The audience of the epistle to Hebr
2. The author of Hebrews
3. Dispensationalism garbage


You are an old man. Old man listen up, start a thread on Dispensationalism and I gladly tear it apart and like Joagbaje, you will crawl back to the same hole you came from

The OP is least interested in Dispensationalism and that's why out of respect for his/her request,am solely focused on the subject at hand; SINNING AFTER JUSTIFICATION AND ITS CONSEQUNCES

You on the other hand are busy dancing like the ground under you is on fire,hopping from one irrelevance to the other all to defend your garbage. How sad

Boy, get on with it, can't wait to see you tear scripture apart.

Make a mention, I will be there.

Hiswordxray:
Yes but you can't have faith without works. And if there is no works it shows there is no faith.

This thing seem so simple yet so hard to comprehend or accept.

New International Version
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

New Living Translation
And since it is through God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's grace would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.

English Standard Version
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

New American Standard Bible
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

King James Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Can't you see these two Apostles were coming from two different view points? One from Judaism/legalism/law/tradition and then Christ and one purely Christ and nothing else?

Can't we just move from one level to a higher ground?
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God,

Hiswordxray:
Your problem is that you don't understand what faith is.
Yes the faith I defined is the same faith used everywhere in the Bible.
Faith is not just believing but it is believing and acting in accordance to what you believe.

To know more about faith read this:
www.nairaland.com/2079035/faith-hebrews-11

Bro, you don't have a problem neither do I, don't adopt such language, it should be outlandish where God is been discussed.

Faith is not generic, it can mean different things.

I gave you a part where Jesus said 'ye of little faith', the Greek word used the is 'OLIGOPISTIS'

The other 'faith' as used in 'the just shall live by faith' is 'PISTIS' and this can also be used in different ways.

E.g you here people ask 'of what faith are you', that is way different from where it is used as 'trust' or 'hope'.

vooks:
I don't tire from garbage, I weary them with the Wisdom of God, just like Stephen praise be to Jesus!

Here is the point;
1. We have ONE message of salvation for BOTH Jews and Gentiles. This means regardless of whether an epistle was written to Igbos,Satanists,M0rons or Jews, the message is not distorted

2. Following 1.above, the ethnicity of the audience of an epistle is irrelevant in discerning the truth no more different than wondering whether Paul was right/left-handed

3. Following 2.,rejecting or watering down the message of an epistle on the basis of the ethnicity of its original audience is lunacy on stilts

This is why you were hesitant and remain so to the issue of dispensationalism raised by Apostle Paul. I guess vooks has his own rules regardless of bible instructions. We can as well quote Revelation, mix it with Genesis, support it with Exodus, one size fits all, right?