₦airaland Forum

vooks:
My broda,
DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH can only mean destruction of the flesh.
A brother perishing means a brother perishing. Now, after destruction of the flesh, where do you find that flesh? Where do you expect to find a brother that has perished?

This is a totally irrelevant passage to prop your theory.
I beseech you by the mercies of God that you esteem the Word of God above your garbage

Since that isn't clear enough for you,lets take a different route.

What is justification?

vooks:
You are confusing or confused. You are just another version of Frosbel hiding behind cliches and glib. You have in one swoop struck out 'Hebrew' epistles from NT as of less authority than 'Gentile' epistles.

Are you insinuating that the present salvation plan for Jews is different from Gentiles?

And finally, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'good word of the Lord'

Hebrews 6:4-5 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Let's study at these people closely;
1. They are ENLIGHTENED
2. They have tasted the heavenly gift
3. They WERE made partakers of Holy Spirit...they received the SEAL as you alluded.
4. They have tasted the good word of the Lord
5. They have tasted the powers of the world to come...probably spiritual gifts

How do you claim that these were not Christians? How better are you than a believer who has had all these?

If they had what you think they have, Paul or the writer of Hebrew wouldn't need all of these persuading messages for them, would he?

vooks:
It can also mean LOSS of hair. Cut the BS and tell me what it means not what it can mean.

Upset?

vooks:
God says the brother PERISHES not loses something

1Cor 8:11 (KJV)
And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Here is Young's Literal Translation
1Cor 8:11 (Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible - YL) 11 and the brother who is infirm shall perish by thy knowledge, because of whom Christ died?

Now, lets use another scripture if it will help matters. A man slept with is father's wife in the church and he got excommunicated. What did Paul say about such person-

1 Cor 5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 [size=28pt]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus[/size]

Can you see destruction/perish does not necessarily mean 'de-saved'...

vooks:
γεύομαι (geuomai)

Strong: G1089

GK: G1174

to taste, Mt. 27:34; Jn. 2:9; absol. to take food, Acts 10:10, et al.; met. to have perception of, experience, Heb. 6:4, 5; 1 Pet. 2:3; θανάτου γεύεσθαι, to experience death, to die, Mt. 16:28, et al.

Stop 'thinking' and start reading. Obviously it means 'to have perception of' or to EXPERIENCE
Now, what is the 'heavenly gift' and 'word of life' in this context?

2. to taste, i. e. perceive the flavor of, partake of, enjoy: τίνος, Luke 14:24 (γεύσεται μου τοῦ δείπνου, i. e. shall partake of my banquet); hence, as in Greek writings from Homer down, equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience: τίνος, Hebrews 6:4

I told you earlier that 'taste' can mean more things than one even in the Greek language, I am sure you get that now. The emphasised is what it means to 'taste'- It says 'equivalent to to feel, make trial of, experience'. Nothing gives an idea of full conviction and persuasion of the gospel of grace by the Jews in the book of Hebrew especially not when they only 'made trial of' the message of Grace Paul taught.

Unlike the Hebrews/Jews, the church believed the gospel completely without the works,rituals and feasts with its demands, thus received the Spirit.

vooks:
And lost means what? Going on a picnic?


1 Corinthians 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

'Lost' can mean the loss of reward like many people have said in different ways on this thread.

Hiswordxray:
We are justified by faith and when you loss your faith you are no longer justified - the just shall live by faith and the just can also die by losing their faith.
Therefore Christians can loss there salvation not because of their work but because of deadness of their faith. This was what Paul was trying to explain to the Jew who were rejecting Jesus and going back to Judaism.

We argument justified by faith in Jesus and this justification can be undo by losing faith in Jesus

1)Could you please help with your definition of justification.

2)Is it in me to believe or is it by my power that I come to believe/have faith?

vooks:
This is not English but Greek my friend
What do you think tasting heavenly gift and the good word of the Lord means?
What is the 'heavenly gift' any way?

Like English one word can mean different things in Greek, it should be part of our study to robustly check every word, I am sure you agree.

I think it means 'awareness' of heavenly gift.

vooks:
Shdemidemi, you are an extremely intelligent man, mighty in scriptures

Unnecessary..

vooks:
What PERISH is Paul talking about?
1 Corinthians 8:10-11King James Version (KJV)
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Context- Perish- 'lost'

vooks:
Don't play around with words. Study these two other occurrences of the word taste


Matthew 16:28 King James Version (KJV)
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Hebrews 2:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Taste death means dying, taste heavenly gift means receiving the heavenly gift

I am sure you are familiar with contextual nuances. You can check one english word and find ten separate meanings depending on how they were used.

Tasting heavenly gift is different from receiving it

vooks:
So this statement is not applicable to you or what?


2 Peter 2:20-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Peter's epistles were foremost to the Twelve Tribes scattered throughout the nations. If you go through your book of Acts properly, you will realise Peter and James decided to go to the Jews with their message while Paul went to the Gentiles to teach this gospel of justification and Grace without the input of sacrifices, legalism or works.

Paul also confronted the jewish/christian temple worshippers (this included Peter and James) in the book of Galatians to explain his doctrine of Grace without circumcision and other principles and aspects of the law and Jewish traditions. After so much dispute, they agreed that he can take his gospel of Christ to the Gentiles.

As far as I know, I am a non-jew and the bible points me directly to Apostle Paul as my teacher-
Romans 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh(the Jews), and might save some of them.

Does this mean I can't learn from Peter's letters? No. But I will not mix Works with Grace...They are parallel.

Hiswordxray:
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and
have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and
have tasted the good word of God and the powers
of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew
them again to repentance, since they crucify again
for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an
open shame." (Heb 6:4-6).
If these verses doesn't tell you that a Christian could lose his salvation then you are reading the Bible with the wrong glasses.

You might have to redefine justification, if a christian will be eventually judged to be saved by 'works' and not wholly by the tremendous salvation by Grace. What do you say 'justification' is again?

Check that word 'taste'... I don't sustain any form of energy from some thing I simply taste. I can keep having a taste and yet starve to death. I must latch on it if I really want to partake in it.

vooks:
shdemidemi,
are you 'really saved'?

Yes... The faithful book says I should reckon myself as saved and I believe it with every fibre of my being.

vooks:
How do you know those who are 'not really saved'?

Only God knows. I can only share the gospel that leads to salvation.

vooks:
Then please explain to me this plain verse

2 Peter 2:20-21 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

WORKS- This isn't a doctrine of GRACE which is a free gift of salvation to all (male,female,old, young, good, bad) that believe. It is actually that of works, whereby you are judged by what you do.

You will not find a statement like this in the epistles of Paul, who happens to be the minister appointed to the church(primarily Gentile).

Hiswordxray:
Please explain these verses.
"26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb 10:26-31).

"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6).

In order to understand these verses we must understand the full picture, trust me that will be long. The book of Hebrews was written primarily to the Jews. What exactly is their belief system? It is Judaism. Judaism is based on temple worship, sacrifices, and Feasts. These people have been practising this religion for at least 1400 years before the birth of Jesus.

These people find it difficult to accept the gospel of Grace, they dabble into it but they don't accept it completely. If you’re going to turn around and walk away from what has been revealed to you by the grace of God and you’re going to go back or mix Judaism with all of its Temple worship and sacrifices, then, you’re out of it. God is no longer dealing with people on the basis of the animal sacrifices because He was the complete, perfect sacrifice.

Nothing in the book of Hebrews says a Christian will lose his salvation. We can create a thread to deal with the book of Hebrew word for word if you desire.

vooks:
Not even apostasy,right?
You can even worship devils and your mansion is still reserved,am I wrong?

Very convenient to tell you it shouldn't be so, but is it within my God given privilege to advice God? Never!
Romans 5
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.



It’s very possible to be a backslider as a believer, and never lose your salvation. But on the other hand, for people who were never really saved, it’s not hard for them to turn their back on revealed truth and become an apostate.

^^

vooks:
In short, no amount of sin can take a justified Christian to hell,right?

That is how big the price paid for sin is, heaven gave its very best.... the demand of sin was entirely paid for.

The wage of sin is death. Sin was fully paid for by the death of the purest and greatest of all.

vooks:
So what happens when this 'sinful nature' goes ahead and sins? Does the man lose his salvation on account of succumbing to its whims?

These are two independent natures- The Flesh(Adam) and the spirit(Jesus).

It is only natural for the flesh, propelled by the sinful nature to do what the flesh does- crave for everything that is against God or godliness(Sin).

The spirit on the other hand is a down payment, an assurance that we are saved, the spirit is justified, He cannot sin,leave nor die. Having this spirit does not make you less natural/sinful in the flesh. However, this spirit, if nourished with the Word of God subdue the demands of the flesh and keeps it in control(sanctified).

The presence of the 'new man' is what guarantees our salvation.

Apostle Paul ended chapter 7 with this consolation-

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind(the inner man) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

NB 'Law' here means a corresponding and imperative reaction based on an initial action- e.g Law of gravity

vooks:
For every scripture word you quote, you throw in ten presumptuous/junk sentences and am having a hard time separating your garbage from scriptures. That's why am focused on this particular statement

Who told you after rapture people will be saved by works and not grace? Will we have anything other than eternity after rapture?
You have invented three types of Christians; pre-resurrection, post-resurrection-pre-rapture and post-resurrection-post-rapture and for each of these, you have crafted DIFFERENT means of attaining salvation.

Jesus BEFORE his resurrection gave power to cast out demons and perform miracles to very FEW numbering 72. You are saying the MANY mentioned are some of these who somewhat failed to attain eternity despite invoking the name of Jesus. For this to happen, they must have died BEFORE Jesus resurrected. Clearly it is utterly illogical to claim that this verse was addressing the backslidden pre-resurrection miracle workers who died BEFORE resurrection, who needed 'works' for their salvation

At the back of your head you can see this and this is why you INVENT another group I called post-rerurrection-post-rapture who are saved by something else other than grace but by works. Apparently according to Apostle Shdemidemi, salvation by grace and faith has an expiry date but the power in the name of Jesus to cast out demons and heal survives rapture into an age where we have faith and works formula of salvation

The group Jesus is addressing fall into this group but they MUST NEVER fall into the present post-resurrection-post-pre-rapture age where faith in Christ secures you eternity regardless of whatever you become or do after having this faith

I could ask you to prove from scriptures the expiry of salvation by faith and the rebirth of salvation by works but am sure you can't, you will just ramble about. Please revere the Word of God above your garbage

It will do you a whole lot of good if you attack the issues and not the person as you discuss. If you think anything was added to scripture, it is noble to ask if and how scripture support such additions.

Hiswordxray:
Please don't bring rapture into this.
The doctrines of rapture is diverse and controversial.
Rapture should be a different topic on it's own.

1 Thess 3

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The above event is what I call 'rapture', I see nothing controversial in it. I did not mention it just for the sake of it, I did because a question demanded an answer that relates with the end of the church(Grace oriented) as we have it today.

ayoku777:
No this is also wrong. This is the opposite extreme of the doctrine. We have extreme legalism and extreme liberalism. This is extreme liberalism.

One, a christian can sin.

1John 5v16 -If any man SEE HIS BROTHER SIN A SIN which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life....

1Cor 5v1 -It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the heathen, that one should have his father's wife.

And two; God's eyes are not close to sins and carnalities of His children, believers in Christ Jesus.

Jesus saw and rebuked sternly the sins of the seven churches in Revelation.

Rev 2v5 -Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

He saw their sins, rebuked them for it, and demanded repentance. With promise consequence if they don't repent.

Jesus repeated this with about 5 of the 7 churches.

He sees our sins and is not indifferent about it. He rebukes it and demands repentance.

We should not assume he doesn't see our fornication, malice, lies and greed etc. They grieve is Holy Spirit in us.

When the bible says we cannot sin as christians, I think it is vital for us to understand what that means. Every true Christian have a dual personality or two natures- A righteousness nature and a sinful nature.

The righteousness nature is the actual person but covered in a sinful body. The righteousness nature is also known as the new man, birthed at regeneration. He cannot sin, He is Holy, He is not visible, He cannot die but can be left dormant if not nourished by the Word of God. Only Christians have this nature- (not because they worked for it but because they believe the gospel)

The visible man is the carrier/conveyor of the sinful nature. He sins, he is in constant enmity with God, He is depraved, He will eventually die, He is not Holy.

Paul used these two personalities interchangeably in Romans 7

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 'me' is the real man/inward man here

22 For I delight in the law of God after the [size=22pt]inward man[/size]:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

vooks:
Let me quote the relevant portion just for you

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Substantiate the highlighted. How do you arrive at the idea that their judgement is by 'works' and this quite 'different' from what you will undergo supposing you are justified?
Are they not condemned on the basis of RELATIONSHIP with Christ?

Do you intentionally ignore questions? That is not the best way to engage in an objective debate.

We have a bible proof that some were invoking the name of Jesus to wrought miracles at that time and so many more will do the same after rapture even as they do now.

There are three groups this passage can possibly be addressing, these groups are-

1)The people before the death and resurrection of Jesus who are not under Grace, their sins had not been justified so they will be judged based on their wrong doings ..

2)The people that will commit this form of travesty after rapture. This group would also be judged as guilty based on their wicked works.

3) The justified group under the dispensation of Grace who are not judged by works but by Grace if they [size=20pt]believe[/size].

This is not much about what we think is right but what the bible says. Left to me, I might do things differently but I am in no position to advice God on how I think He should administer judgement.

vooks:
Can you please in the fewest words explain to me why you think the 'many' of matthew 7 are pre-resurrection users of the name of Jesus.

Is it because you think post-resurrection users of the same can't possibly go to hell but the pre-resurrection users are not afforded that ASSURANCE?

Vooks

You did not answer my questions, why?

'Many' of Matthew 7 is referring to a people who will be judged unto salvation by 'dos and don'ts' i.e by Works.

This sort of judgement is not applicable where there is 'justification' by grace through Christ. Under the dispensation of the Holy Spirit, judgement is based on the premise of our believe in the gospel of Christ. If we believe we are save, if we do not we are condemned regardless of moral uprightness.

vooks:
Jesus said MANY will say on that day. Are you trying to define 'many' as his disciples before his resurrection? they numbered hundreds. At Pentecost they were 120. Go figure

And before I forget, there is NOTHING there to restrict the 'many' to the pre-resurrection users of His name

The condition for salvation pre-resurrection is different from post-resurrection, do you agree?

vooks:
These lose statements are your bane. So, with Holy Spirit out of the world, how will the sinners be convicted of their sins? Osmosis or radiation? Keep on clinging to that myth of pretrib

We are presently in the dispensation of the Spirit: A dispensation of Grace, justification and election without works or affiliation. This dispensation will certainly come to an end as explained by Apostle Paul at rapture.

A new dispensation of salvation by works will begin as described in the book of Revelation. agree?

vooks:
My broda,
When you look at that scripture italo has raised, Jesus speaking BEFORE his death and resurrection was talking future. How could the subjects of that passage invoke the name of Jesus to perform miracles? I thought the name of Jesus was invoked AFTER Pentecost.

Before the death and resurrection of Christ the disciples were given the power to work miracles.

Matthew 10:10
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

and around this time some other folks were using the same name and authority to perform miracles.

Mark 9:38
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

All of these happened while he was alive and they primarily apply to this time. That is not to say we cannot learn from it, but it does not apply to the present dispensation/administration of the Holy Spirit which is built on THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION.

If we must look at this in the futuristic sense, it will perfectly fit hand in glove with 'post rapture' i.e after the churh and the Holy Spirit as we have Him today leaves. A time when people will have to suffer and endure tribulation to be saved.

italo:
I'm not trying to shut him up.

italo:
I'm not saying what he said outside affects his argument.

So why raise it here and not attack the current issue of the thread?

italo:
I'm only expressing my pity because I don't know how he can be helped. I've known him for some time and I know he doesn't see things logically.

Pity!!! Don't get me started.

If you really want to talk logic, you had better come from an atheist point of view and not try to impose logic to a structured resource that stands far higher than the logical capability of the human race put together.

italo:
As for the argument, maybe you can help me ask him these questions related to my earlier post:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no.
2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no.
3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no.

@shdemidemi, please answer yes or no. No stories.
@BabaGnoni, please be a good referee.

1. Were the people in the passage justified? Yes or no. No! No because the price for justification had not been paid at this time.

2. Did they commit sin? Yes or no. Yes, so they deserve the death/wrath of God.

3. Did the go to heaven? Yes or no. An unjustified sinner goes straight to hell.

My own question-

Did the early church in Corinth commit the act of sin? Yes or No

Did Paul call them Carnal? Yes or No

Did Paul call them saints because of their sanctification and justification by God through Christ? Yes or No

Jesus gospel different from Paul's!!! How now? When what Paul spoke was not even his own direct words but that of Christ.

And as for your Jesus concerns, we do not know Him by the flesh anymore but by His Spirit through His gospel which came after His ascension.

2 Cor 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

Open thy mind..

God must be very busy wiping out names and replacing them when we ask for forgiveness.

If the condition for making heaven is based on what we do while under the blood of the lamb, then there is absolutely no need for the blood in the first place.

The blood is a shield from the angel of death, if death can yet whisk us from God's grasp then there is no GRACE in the first place. Ofcourse this isn't so, because
Romans 8
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's [size=28pt]elect[/size]? It is God that [size=28pt]justifieth[/size].

34 Who is he that [size=28pt]condemneth[/size]? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?....

Goshen360:
Disqualified in what sense? That he was no longer justified?

1 Cor 9:27

Castaway - 'adokimos'- 'rejected from testimony, with loss of future reward'

Reward isn't salvation

@Candour.. Happy New Year bro

Not seen you around here in a while, I am guessing you've not had spare time for nairaland lately .

christemmbassey:
sorry I do not discus christianity with a non-christian. Reason, 4s clear.

This should be a rule.

Can we all look up the word 'alumni'?

If this man happen to be one, especially of a reputable institution, why should we still doubt his qualification?

Thanks for the invite @Fortresofchrist

The term Justification can easily mean or be best put as 'just as if you never sinned'.

The detailed explanation of our justification can only be found in the Pauline epistles though we can discern from other parts of scripture that the teaching of justification has always been God's faithful plan for mankind.

Jesus began to tell parables as a way of judgement to unbelievers. He told parables to veil and hide the truth from those who were not part of Him. He started to talk to the people in languages they will not easily understand but would explain some of these things to his disiples though they themselves hardly understood what Christ really meant by his parables at that point in time.

Information regarding 'Justification by God' was presented to the people in so many ways through parables by Jesus. In one of his parables, He spoke about a prodigal son (represents every man born of Adam) who came back to his senses and reached for the father. He was Justified by His father and was given the fattest calf(God's word) to feast on.

He also spoke about hired hands(Gentiles, fatherless, Godless) that was employed late but was remunerated with the same wage as the workers who had been working for the master all day.

He talked about justification in most of his parables and there was one common factor in most. There is always one party that gets to be justified and the other that is always envious/bitter because they have WORKED. In the parable of the prodigal son, the brother that was 'good' felt the father was unfair to justify the son that he deemed 'bad'. In the other parable the workers who had toiled all day felt cheated by the master for placing the workers that came late to the scene an equal reward. WORK is always against GRACE just as the flesh constantly war against the spirit. But God remains a merciful father who does not pay His own children according to their 'work' but according to His mercy and Grace.

Paul simply unveiled all Jesus said in so many parables. The doctrine of Justification is the leg Grace stands upon through propitiation of our Sin. I think it becomes imperative to know of what 'sin' we have been justified. It is not merely the fact that one lie, or fornicate etc (those are acts of sin), God took sin by the jugular, from its very root which is from the fall of Man/adam.

Hence, we are no longer accused by the sin of Adam but we yet carry a body that was made in sin. Our body and its members are the main instrument of sin. They crave for sin even when our mind mean to do good. Our body and its member suppresses our mind and we give in more often than none. Falling for our fleshly desires does not make us less justified but it means we are yet carnal in the areas where we are subdued by our flesh to do its demands.

No man can completely wash himself off sinful acts- It is a work we have to consciously engage in until we are separated from our earthly/sinful body. That is no excuse or license to become lascivious for a sincere Christian of course, it can be for one who is not truly transformed. The fact remains that we are all a 'WORK-IN-PROGRESS' though we have been JUSTIFIED in the salvific sense..