vooks:

Shdemidemi has an allergy for anything that threatens his house of card theorygy(sic)

That is not correct...I have seen most part of the book.

Hmmmm

You are entirely free to your opinion. The truth remains that I won't start a discussion from the tail end, rather I advise we treat it from the very top. When you are ready, I will definitely oblige you. @vooks

YoungLilFranco:
...please who are you refering to?

Who the cap fits, let 'em wear it..

Mpiato419:
How dare u compare an oba with a Pope... are u high

Ain't they both leaders in their own right? Is the pope a god?

How!!! This can't be true. One of those who claim they can never fall ill in intensive care unit. Who is deceiving who?

May God's will be done in his condition.

What!!! Hope he sees the light quickly so as to discern the golf in difference btw the two individuals behind the monikers.

I choose not to join issues on the back of what anyone had said.. I advise you open a thread on the topic of DISPENSATIONALISM, so we can both have a comprehensive and robust debate on the topic.

Hey!!! What's with the continuous mention? @mrpresident

Nigerians (not just the politicians) are the problem of this country. Some people see this APC/PDP penchant for violence as some form of joke or game hence they drop goony post as though the issues of the country has nothing to do with their well being n that of a generation to come. Many becloud their senses and love for the nation for partisan politics that pays the principal politicians than the rest of us.

This incident isn't a terrorist attack, it is a planned attack by those whose responsibility is to protect the citizenry. I thought this act should be condemned by all well meaning Nigerians but its beyond logic that some even make fun of an innocent journalist whose only offence was going by his job.

We were quick to fly placards in protest to support obanikoro as if he were the victim but turn our minds away from the fact that a policeman was killed at the madness displayed in okrika. He could be a father, a husband, a breadwinner but his life cut to an abrupt end because some selfish people want to rule over a people by hook and by crook.

anukulapo:

Amen,may God bless you too.

Bro, noticed you sent me a mail. I cld not read it because I no longer have access to that address. Hope all is well?

Luke 17

The younger brother was not too happy being supervised by his father, hence his decision to take his share of the estate, move into a far country so that he becomes lord of himself, making decisions as he deemed fit. He wanted independence so that he can have unfettered control of his portion of the goods. Putting the whole scenario in perspective, he is like the man who wants to discover himself by making choices and decisions un-aided by any human standards and philosophy; giving no thought to what the society deems as right or wrong. In today’s religious church setting, the act of this younger brother is an obvious sin because it would be regarded as an obvious wrongdoing.

On the other hand, the elder brother remained at home being guided and directed by the societal standards and in obedience to his father’s will. In his conclusions about himself, he said to his father, “all these years, I have served you and you never gave me…” He became lost and was fast losing his father’s love because he felt he could gain it by his goodness. He conformed to the laws and standards of the society and as far as the same society is concerned, he was a very good boy worth emulating. By the standards of today’s church, this is the boy we ought to be like in our daily walk with God. When compared to the younger brother, it was not his sins or misconducts that separated him from his father rather his self-acclaimed righteousness was what kept him from partaking in the feast prepared by his father.

This is the sort of dilemma we find ourselves in today: in the messages we hear from our pastors and leaders. Our messages are kind of polarized: on one side of the divide, we preach about how bad it is to flout community standards, inclusive of obeying biblical principles all because of the gain from God. We teach that if we don’t do this, God will not do that and so on. This is the message the elder brother was trying to pass across to his father; yet, he didn’t make it into the feast. Moral conformity does not seem to help according to the story Jesus is telling us in the parable.

On the other side of the opposition we are caught again in the message of self-help. We are or have been taught that we should discover ourselves; dream big (no more what God has for us) and the world will follow in case it ends well for us. The advocates of self-discovery or the protagonists insist on pursuing their own goals and self-actualization regardless of what society deems as right or wrong (that is in their customs or conventions). According to this perspective, the world would be a better place if tradition, prejudice, authorities or other obstacles to personal freedom are removed or taken away. This is the picture painted by the younger brother in the story, and which doesn’t seem to help either because he ended up becoming a pariah eating leftovers from pigs.

According to Jesus in this story, the two brothers were lost; they were both wrong although the offense of the younger seemed more obvious than his brother’s. Both hearts and the two divides they projected and represented are very much alike than they appear to be. How?

The younger brother went away with his share of the inheritance; he felt he did not need his father therefore he resented his father and made away with what he was given. In his quest for control, he went away with his share while the elder brother stayed at home and obeyed because that was his own way of gaining absolute control. His idea was that he had obeyed the father and therefore his father owed him: to do whatever he wanted done (the way the elder son wants things done). Both brothers were alike in that they were working for a reward from their father and never wanted him; they both used their father to get what they wanted (selfish ends).

These two divides represents the different motives we have in our churches today: some of us go to church because there is a promise of good coming our way (as in material things) and some also come because they don’t want to go to hell. In other words, there must be gain before I step out to any church. Our leaders in turn are wise enough to advertise their churches as a product, presenting or advertising on what you can get if ever you decide to come to their churches. We use God to get what we want in our own way; very few present or advertise the love for the Father, even if there is nothing materialistic to gain and that’s where we are missing it. This is where both sons missed it.

What is the solution to these two polarizations?

Jesus in the story presents to us the concept of sin and what it means. His definition of sin goes beyond the concept of observing the “do’s” and the “don’ts”, laws or creeds – observing God’s rules of conduct. This is what the Apostle calls “works”, where one thinks they are entitled to blessings just because they don’t sin. It is an unspoken way of controlling God through our obedience to giving us things we want – using God as a means to an end.

Jesus spoke about reproving the world of Sin because the love of the Father isn’t first priority in our lives. We must love God for who God is and not work through the observance of one creed or the other pretending to love Him because of all we want or need.

Therefore, Jesus shows us from this story that a man who has not violated the law, looking at moral behaviors can be in every bit, as spiritually lost as the most profligate, immoral person. The two brothers never loved their father because their makeup through the Sin Nature contaminated their souls. So it is not in man to love God from their heart and mind. Intrinsically, God has to come to us, helping us to get back to loving Him and that’s what GRACE is all about.

Just like the father invited the younger son into the feast, he did the same for the elder brother. This is the reason for Christ leaving Heaven, taking the form of man because He had to come for sin and also condemn sin in His flesh so that the barricade between humanity and God can be broken down, cutting across race, color and sect.

Thank God that He came to you.

If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end; if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin, and in the end, despair – C S Lewis.


Be Refreshed

K Surakat

vooks:
Shdemidemi,
am still waiting for your kind input.
Will there be animal sacrifices, sin offerings in the Grace-less dispensation where james,Peter and other Jewish NT scriptures will be applicable?

I disagree with him vooks. There is a difference between the 7 years of tribulation and the 1000 year reign of the kingdom(millenium). Of what use is sacrifice in a place without the devil?

Rev 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


NB: I hope you understand this topic does not address the issue of dispensationalism per se.

vooks:
I will take absence of evidence to be evidence of absence of 'gimmicks and lies' as you put it

LOGIC means consistent my broda. Faith and scriptures are extremely consistent. This is why we have 66 books mostly by different writers and spanning hundreds if not thousands of years TOGETHER.

The 'logic and rationality of scriptures' is all am looking for my broda on this thread. 'Secular' vs 'scriptural' sense is your own dichotomy. Sense is sense. Bring Scriptures alone and hang your senses outside. Am waiting.... https://www.nairaland.com/2101258/dispensationalists-there-literal-animal-sacrifices

I wish to remind you that 'logic and rationality of scriptures' as well as 'scriptural sense' is not for the stars or whales but MEN. It comes through man. Do you want to have a go at it or not?

Well, secular sense to determine 'what is good' and 'what is not' was what Adam got for obeying the sneaky serpent. Adam and Eve never had this sense until the fall, we also have the secular sense as a result of the fall. The bible refer to us(Christians) as 'sheep' because it demands that we drop that debased, man made, evil secular sense while we conform to scriptural sense.

I will meet you on the thread to contribute my bit.

vooks:
Nor do I know what motivates you to frequent the Religion section of NL my broda.
While am free to speculate on your motives, that's waste of time. You asked for a thread on Dispensationalism and I did just that after you resisted sharing your wisdom on the same.

I have not lied nor engaged gimmicks anywhere and you are free to point them out and I will duly apologize if that is the case

When discussing scriptures, one would imagine that digressing and stalling, sideshows and running away from the same is a sign of fickle faith not to mention subscription to things you can't defend. That is the hallmark of BLIND FAITH. Faith is rational. Faith is logical. Stephen by the Holy Spirit spoke with wisdom that could not be withstood. Christians who can't contend for their faith are a disgrace to the name of Jesus

It takes a sincerely honest and mature mind to ask yourself WHY you believe WHAT you believe. What is the point of clinging to things you can't defend?

I do not need any apologies as I am not offended by the remarks, when or if I am I will ask for one. When insults are traded It only makes it impossible to have a serene discourse as expected of a religious thread.

The logic and rationality of scriptures isn't measured by our senses but by what God says. If it does not make secular sense does not in any way mean it does not make scriptural sense.

vooks:
I have NEVER used derogatory remarks on nobody least of all you.
The thread is still open and if you really think you have ANY BASIS of subscribing to Dispensationalism, this is your moment to shine and educate us on what the Spirit has been revealing to you. Am sure you would hate to see us wallow in deception and ignorance

I really don't know what motivates your interest in all of this, it does not seem to me like it is the love for God and His Word. This isn't a polical thread that requires all form of underhand methods to win a debate. We are discussing scriptures here, one would not expect lies and gimmicks by people who claim submission to God, rather it should be a sincere opinion based on the wholesome guide, which is the Word of God.

vooks:
Shdemidemi challenged me to put up a thread on Dispensationalism and he has opted to ignore it.

This was an opportunity for him to defend his own doctrines outside this thread and he won't show up.
Very interesting
https://www.nairaland.com/2101258/dispensationalists-there-literal-animal-sacrifices

When you learn to respect other people's opinions and also refrain from employing derogatory remarks, you can be rest assured I will oblige you.

The idea of modern day prophets and their prophecies should not be completely trusted by any Christian. The Word of God remains the single infallible and accurate prophecy we can depend on. It should never be about what any man says but what the bible say.

Who does Yero think he is, an emperor?

Is there a constitution that must be upheld in Kaduna?

Yero's rhetorics are of one who has no respect for constituted authority and the rule of law.

Many Christians across the globe especially in the Charismatic and Pentecostal Churches gather at the end of every year for a message from their leader, which is supposedly a ‘message from God’ (although some really don’t believe in such gatherings). They gather together for a message that God wants to give about the coming New Year concerning them, their families, business and their country. These gatherings also have a New Year theme such as – the year of abundance, the year of acceleration, or the year of multiple blessings et al.

The cross-over service as it’s fondly called attracts almost all and sundry – people who haven’t been to church through the year find that time of the year very attractive because days like that are best celebrated in the Church. To the ones who haven’t been faithful in their relationship with God, it becomes a very good day to call a truce with their maker. To the faithful ones, God must surely have a word, a prophecy in particular for them and all they represent.

The leaders are not left out of this sensation because they are supposed to accept delivery of what “they say” God is about to do in the coming new year which is just some days, hours and minutes as they count down. Most of these leaders also want to be endorsed as the “man of the hour” having a corner on God and therefore would give prophecies, not about the congregation but about the government – presidents, governors and many more government officials knowing some of these prophecies will be reported by major tabloids, radio and TV stations. As you may know, when there is a negative prophecy (a not too good message), the said person who the prophecy was given to, would by one way or the other make contact with the “man-of-god”.

There has been more confusion in the church as regards these words and prophecies that when you compare what most leaders have said – one would eventually see a picture of a “god” who has or is giving various messages to different leaders. It’s like a father who has ten children and gives them ten different messages thus causing confusion. People from different churches will then start to say, “In our Church, it is the year of blessings”, and some will say, “It is a year of acceleration” and many more of such.

Is this the way the God of the Bible is? I beg to differ, surely God is not confused.

Usually this is the way it goes – the leaders tell the congregation to embark on a fast as a way of keeping the body and mind clean and away from sin because they are expecting some sort of blessings from God.

If I were asked to give a New Year’s message, this is what I will say: This is the will of God for any Christian not just on New Year’s Eve, but daily as we tread around in the checked pavement of our mortal existence. The Apostle advised that we should see our walk with God using the relationship between the servant and the master. The reason for being a servant is to always carryout the intentions of the master. Jesus said his purpose was to do what he has been sent to do.

In the same manner, the Apostle advised that we present our bodies holy and acceptable to God. This can be achieved by the renewing of our mind so that there is a transformation from the way we used to think into how God wants us to think, going forward.

To put this differently, we are advised not to become well-adjusted to our culture that we fit into it without even thinking. Instead we are supposed to fix our attention on the Word of God, recognizing what He wants from us and thereby causing a change from the inside out. Unlike the world and culture we exist in – always dragging us down to its level of immaturity, God brings out the best in us through the understanding of His Word, leading us to maturity.

It all starts with the understanding of the Word of God.

TO THE CHURCH, the Apostle advised that we should not think of ourselves more highly than we ought to because everyone in the body has been given a gift in measure, making everyone special and important before God. The understanding of the Word of God, delivers to each individual their part and meaning in the body. We therefore cannot think of our gifting as better than others with their different gifting’s. He compared the Church (or Body of Christ) to the body of a human being with different parts. Every part is very important to the body, be it the toe or the kidney. Imagine the toe is cut off the body; it amounts to nothing on its own. Every part has its peculiar role to play, knowing that each part gets it’s meaning from the body as a whole and not the other way round.

We are directed to go ahead and be what we were made to be, without enviously or pridefully comparing ourselves with each other or trying to be something we are not. If you preach, just preach God’s message and nothing else; if you help, just help and don’t take over; if you teach, just teach and stick to your teaching; if you encourage others, don’t get bossy about it; if you are put in charge, do not manipulate; if you are called to give aid to people in distress, keep your eyes open and be quick to respond without dissimulation and self-seeking; if you work with the disadvantaged, don’t get irritated with them or depressed by them, always keep a smile on your face. You are to love your fellow neighbor from the center of who you are as if your life depends on it.

We are also directed not to burnout and be alert servants of the master; we are encouraged not to quit in hard times (rejoicing in hope and patient in tribulation); we are commanded to bless our enemies and not curse; laugh with friends and when time of tears come, we are commanded to share in them; we are also advised to get along with each other and not insist on getting even; God is the judge of all. When we see our enemies hungry, we should feed them or give them water to drink when they are thirsty.

CONCERNING THE STATE, our rulers are not terrors when we do well but they are when we disobey. We are told to be good citizens knowing that all government are emissaries of God because they are supposed to maintain law and order. The man that commits an offence is seen as irresponsible to the state and indirectly irresponsible to God and God holds us responsible. Duly constituted authorities are only a threat if we are trying to get by with something; civilized citizens should have nothing to fear because when you are responsible, the state will always be fair to you. You should not live to avoid punishment but because it is the right way to live.

We are also advised to pay our taxes so that an orderly way of life can be maintained; fulfilling our obligations as a citizen – paying our bills and giving respect to our leaders. Make sure that you don’t get so absorbed and exhausted in taking care of all your day-by-day obligations that you lose track of the time and doze off, oblivious to God.

With these virtues operational and growing in your life, no grass will grow under your feet, no day will pass without its reward as you mature in your experience of our Master Jesus. Without these qualities you can’t see what’s right before you, oblivious that your old sinful life has been wiped off the books.

Welcome to 2015.

Be Refreshed!


K Surakat

vooks:
Are you Spirit filled,negro?

I will rather have you address me by my moniker and not by the derogatory 'negro'. Can you do that?

I responded to your question already, touch if you ain't satisfied with my answer.

vooks:

Am actually praying that you will for once appeal to Holy Spirit for doctrine and not man made garbage. Are Spirit filled?

Can we appeal to the Holy Spirit when we keep the Holy bible closed and resort to unfounded logical arguments? Open your bible to prove right or wrong based on what the book says and not what you wish it says.

I do not really need to tell you if I am spirit filled or not as the Spirit isn't some energy felt by our senses. But one thing is certain, a spirit filled person sees from the perspective of scriptures and he remains profoundly loyal to the content within it while the carnal mind scamper for secular logic and ego aggrandising methods to address issues.

vooks:
You are blind.
You just accused God of confusion.

A Grace-Age Jewish Christian in first century is bombarded with Grace-less dispensation messages for the Jews, and he is supposed to IGNORE it and look to Pauline epistles for the correct salvation formula. This is the kind of theory you can cook if only you are blessed with the IQ of a marine invertebrate


Cc ayoku826, BabaGnoni

Carnality par excellence... I hope at some point you will revert to scriptures to put your point across.

Ubenedictus:


it seems vooks really bullied you.

I have no "junk yard dog's aspersions" for you dear, if you have a good memory you'll remember we had a discussion some time ago, i was highly critical of the way you were throwing passages away because they aren't pauline, and you considered them 2nd class. I still have a very critical view of your theory and i'm sure you've gathered that much. I'm been critical, i am not casting aspersions.

bully!!! ok, if that is the way you see it, well and good. It isn't about me here so I see all he says as one acting based on ignorance. Moreover, I never used none of those lines for you, they were all for my good friend, vooks.

You are yet to find holes in all we have said so far, save for silly excuses from vooks that the message is not as old as he would have liked it to be.

Ubenedictus:


oh yes!

I happened to have read someone who used to rely on the scoffield bible, before that i didn't even know it existed. The person claimed it contains fundamental errors but i have never see the said work to judge for myself.

And catholics will reject "progressive relevation" any day anytime. Catholics believe revelation ended with the apostle and they'll certainly find it uncharitable to be classed with any group that denies the authority of scripture.

This is the point where the rubber meets the road, I hope you and our very in-house thug called vooks enjoy your ride with the pro and anti catholic rhethorics.

I have never read scoffield's work, so the junk yard dog's aspersions are baseless and unfounded.

Awww...

Ubenedictus:


and you just told me that people of the spirit may perform works of th flesh, the very same works that paul says christian should abstain from because those who do them will not inherit eternal life right?

Being of the spirit does not mean you are perfect, rather it means you have a capacity to suppress your flesh and is fruits by the renewing of your mind by God's word.

A christian can make mistakes, he can fall, he can slip but that isn't where he belongs, he would always find himself looking for more of the mind of God in his pursuit of perfection.

Ubenedictus:


but do you agree that the first people God "foreknew" were the isrealite?

Do you agree that the said foreknowledge didn't suffice to save them all?

Do you agree that only a remnant were?

I hope you do!

If you do then i'll see that foreknowledge doesn't guarantee glorification.

If you do i'll see that not all who were called were chosen.

If we can agree on this then maybe we can move forward.

Foreknowledge of God does not mean it He foreknew you to be saved, does it?

Right from the beginning God knew what will be of Israel- He knew not all Israel are Israel?

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

As for Christians He started from calling us to glorifying us-

King James Bible Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God never chooses everyone, He has always elected a remnant. Christians happen to be that remnant He has chosen.

Ubenedictus:


so you say a man of the spirit can do the works of tthe flesh!

And paul says that a person who does those works shall not inherit the kingdom of God, gal 5:21.

I hope you can add 1 + 1 together.

If a justified christian can do works of the flesh, and those who do such work will not inherit eternal life, then it follows that it is possible for one who was justified to willingly greviously sin and thus lose eternal life.


What do you say dear?

There are two sets of people- those of the spirit and those of the flesh.
Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

There is something that occur by being one of the spirit- you start producing those fruits of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance

On the flipside you have the Adamic nature/ the flesh and its fruits which are -Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings. These are people who still live in the realm of old Adam, and know nothing of God's saving Grace.


The people who live by the flesh will definitely not see God.

Looking back at the OP, we all are guilty as charged, the entire world deserve the wrath of God if God decides to be fair. But by God's mercy He has reserved for Himself a remnant by His sovereign choice.
Romans 9 NLT
10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins.[f][size=26pt] 11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) [/size]

How unequivocal can the Word of God be if God permit the heart of men to be opened to the truth of His complete authority to harden who He chooses to harden and permit the heart of who He calls to be receptive to the divine message of His son.

18[b] So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.[/b]

It is never the work of man to save himself nor to de-save self. There is obviously a place for gospel responsiblity for the elect, which is to preach the message to the world.

ayoku777:


Obviously this discussion is going no where.

You've given "grafted" your own definition to include every gentile including unbelievers.

That is pretty shocking to me, to say the entire gentile world has been grafted into Christ or set apart and sanctified unto God, which would imply they all now share the life and holiness of the root even as unbelievers.

How you drew that conclusion is far-fetched to me.

I don't think I can help much further than this for now.

The branch that got cut off was part of the tree in its entirety with conditions that determine wheather they live or die. Likewise, the one that has been grafted is also attached in its entirety. It takes 'belief' to live and unbelief to die as a branch.


GRAFT----- http://studybible.info/vines/Graff,%20Graft%20(RV)

[ 1,,G1461, enkentrizo ]
denotes to graft" in (en, in, kentrizo, to graft), to insert a slip of a cultivated tree into a wild one. In Romans 11:17, Romans 11:19, Romans 11:23-Romans 11:24, however, the metaphor is used "contrary to nature" (Romans 11:24), of grafting a wild olive branch (the Gentile) into the good olive tree (the Jews); that unbelieving Jews (branches of the good tree) were broken off that Gentiles might be grafted in, afforded no occasion for glorying on the part of the latter. Jew and Gentile alike must enjoy the Divine blessings by faith alone. So Jews who abide not in unbelief shall, as "the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree."



It was nice having the discourse with you bro.

ayoku777:


Seriously?

Why did Paul preach good works and right living to believers..

It was initially impossible for Gentiles to hear a message of Christ but something happened..a change and a pardigm shift suddenly made it possible for Gentiles to hear a message Jesus wouldn't permit his disciples to share with them before His death.

ayoku777:

Why did Jesus preach repentance to the 7 churches who were already righteous by faith?.

This church isn't a church that will be judged by Grace and the entire chapter explain what work they had to do else He spit them out of His mouth(conditional).

ayoku777:

This issue is really digressing..

And besides. John preached repentance because God was bringing in a new covenant. So even if they were holy in good works they would still need to repent to receive the new covenant..

The question was if they were Holy in good works... I believe we both agree they were not.

Were they Holy in any way atall? if you think they were, explain.

ayoku777:

Repentance is "Metanoeo" -which means change of mind. Someone who is upright in good works under the law still needs to repent to accept righteousness by faith.

John came to prepare the minnds of the Jews in preparation for Christ and what He came to do..

Would there have been a need for righteousness through faith in Christ, if there was righteousness/holiness by the virtue of birth(an offspring of Abraham)?

ayoku777:
The jews were God's set apart people until they rejected Christ.

I particularly like the word 'set apart'...

I am saying the Gentiles are now the set apart people. There is a caveat to become Holy, which is by belief in the gospel, do you understand what I mean?