₦airaland Forum

italo:
I warned you about that guy.

When you show him where Jesus said believers are going to hell, he says that was before Jesus died so those believers were not justified.

When you show him that Abraham was justified thousands of years before Jesus died, he switches and says those working miracles in Jesus' name were not believers.

When you show him where the book of Hebrews, Romans, Corinthians show Christians can go to hell (after Jesus died), he says the books were written to Jews.

What amazes me is how BabaGnone pretends he doesn't see the dubious excuses just because they are defending the same position.

You're arguing with a man who believes there are two gospels and two Jesuses.

My advice is you ignore that one and discuss with the rest.

Arguing with him is like shouting back at an alarm system gone off.

You should either ignore it or put it off.

This style of argument is stale my friend, present your argument with scriptures and stop acting like Nigeria's clueless leader.

2 Tim 2
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

When you start throwing verses all over the place to support your belief, I must show you where they belong. That is how you rightly divide the word. More like wanting to judge Adam by the law of Moses, how does that make sense to you?

vooks:
Garbage.
Do you have dyslexia?

Romans 15:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

No, I don't.

Don't rush, read those verses gently, then explain what they mean in your own words.

Are you getting angry?

vooks:
Why would I believe just because Paul said so?

If you don't believe because Paul said so, you must believe because the bible say so. Except, of-course you like to go the way of Frosbel by arguing the inerrancy of the entire book.

vooks:
The gospels my friend. Why would I believe just because Paul said so? What or who was Jesus

Please stop mutilating scriptures and picking what suits your fancy

Folks get blinded by this sort of statement a lot, so you ain't alone. They say, after all Paul is a man like me so why should he be an authority? They will say things like 'I will rather work with what Jesus said while walking on earth'.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Jesus made it known that it was expedient that he leaves that the Spirit of truth may come. That Spirit is who Paul represented. He was a bond servant to that Spirit and He was sold out to the Spirit to speak His mind.

What was the office of Jesus when He walked the phase of the earth-
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision(Jews) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

It is either we take scripture or take the other option of rejecting it, what we cannot do is impose our ideas on it or alternate it.

BabaGnoni:
May I chip in also that, not keeping the faith, loosing faith in the word of God in Eden, was the first test man failed in.

Babagnoni ... How now!

Adam didn't lose faith, rather he disobeyed constituted authority.

vooks:
I respectfully differ for Pauline epistles can't save NOBODY on their own.

What else does Pauline epistle need from without for salvation to be achieved?

Paul taught Grace and he says by this gospel of Grace are ye saved.
Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What do I need outside of this?

Who else explained this principle of salvation plainly as this?

5solas:
Faith is God-given. In those that are saved, works are the products of that justifying faith and are the effects of salvation not by any iota the cause.

I completely agree with you.

Many erroneously think faith is that energy within you to attract 'things' depending on how much you can augment the energy. Hence, if you have big 'faith' you are justified and 'low faith' or 'no faith' result to loss justification.

vooks:
Silly and irrelevant questions, I don't dignify them by answering. You are very lucky I did


Define them in any way that suits you

Never knew people get too big to answer questions in a tete-a-tete. Lucky me, I got answers from vooks. I'm fulfilled

Grow up son!!!

ayoku777:
This is how people make conclusions without reading through the entire thread. Don't say bottomline without reading to the bottom line.

I don't do Calvinism or any of those tags. And if you have continued reading, you would have seen where I made the lower post.

I corrected someone who said God doesn't see our sins.

Exactly! He wants to delve into the conversation without having a proper read let alone an objective read from the back. Responding to his late inputs will drag the discussion back. He has nothing more to add than what @italo had endured.

Hiswordxray:
Faith is a word use by many people apart from Christians but if you are asking of the Christian Faith then I would give you this verse
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" (Heb 12:3).
Faith is not something that comes and jump on you. Faith requires your effort because faith is looking (the gaze of the soul).
Faith don't just involves looking but also reacting to what you are looking at. You can't look without reacting, this is why James said "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James also said something interesting I would like to quote "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2: 24).

Let's don't lose sight of why I said you should say what faith means to you- you said 'justification by faith' is dependent on a subjective faith(paraphrased)

Jesus once said 'o Ye of little faith' (more in tune with your definition of faith)

Is the above use of faith the same as The way faith should be interpreted here - 'the just shall live by faith'?

Hiswordxray:
1) Justification is by faith. You can't remove the word faith and put only the word justification and get the right result. Once faith is removed then justification goes, it can't stand alone.

2) God can't force anything on you. If you choose not to believe and reject the faith He can't for it on you.

Rejecting the faith is rejecting justification and God can't force any of them on you. So Yes, Christians can loss justification.

What is FAITH in your own words?

vooks:
Was Paul's message offensive to Jews? Your guess is as good as mine,Bidam's,Babagnoni's or even SonOfLucifer's.

You suddenly resort to dumb responses when you can't answer a question logically.

No question can come as easy as this- Was Paul's message offensive to the Jews and their traditions?

vooks:
Answer my question.
How does knowledge of the audience of the Hebrews epistle affect your comprehension of this particular passage?

Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bear these facts in mind;
1. There are no distortions in the Hebrews or scriptures
2. The message of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is the SAME
3. Holy Spirit resides in believers PERMANENTLY

Key Words in Hebrews 6 v 4 -

'once enlightened'

tasted

heavenly gift

partakers

Are you happy that we define these words in their pertinent context.

Do you think Paul's message was offensive to the Jewish nation?

vooks:
Neither is what Paul wrote offensive to the Jews if you remove Jesus. You are not making sense.

Hebrews was written for Hebrews. How does that change Hebrews 6 passage we are discussing. How does knowledge of the audience of the book affect your understanding of that passage?


Hebrews 6:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Is it that difficult to be civil? If you think a thing don't make sense prove it or better still, walk away from it. I do that a lot on this forum.

I was not discussing that chapter with you I only answerd the question you asked in your penultimate post, apply some decorum little man.

JesusisLord85:
While I believe you are of the devil, I did think that you at least had better arguments than most of the children here who follow after you. But the bolded has proved me wrong. lmao. "God has moved from Judaism to Christianity". There is so much wrong with that statement I would not know where to begin. But as we in the truth have contended with you enough, it is wise we mourn not the man the Most High has left in confusion.

Ah, by the way, the igbo man is an Israelite...as you know by now

My Israeli friend, I mean no offence, I know how much you like the traditions of your 'fathers' but I can't but quote scripture.

vooks:
I respectfully differ for Pauline epistles can't save NOBODY on their own.

I also differ with your theory that Pauline inspiration was superior. He had no privilege of being taught by Jesus on earth, he received some of his training from Holy Spirit. But I can agree with you if you convince me that whatever Holy Spirt taught Paul was superior to what Jesus taught his disciples

Is the message of salvation in Hebrews distorted?

What Peter and James and Jesus(flesh) taught isn't so offensive to the jews if you take out the name of Jesus. All they had problems with was the name Jesus and who He said he is. With the message of Christ (risen) through Paul, the offence is beyond just calling the name 'Jesus', it multiplied with the demand for the renunciation of all their tenets, feast and traditions.

Paul told Peter and James at the conference in Jerusalem that they added nothing to what he was offering from Christ. God had moved but the jews were too conceited to follow.

The entire bible is one and none is distorted if placed in the right sequence and not lumped together like we do. The book of Hebrews like the name implies was primarily for the 'Hebrews', we must read the book with that in mind.

vooks:
If a Jew and an Igbo need the same formula for salvation,
1. why should we distinguish between an epistle whose primary audience is Jewish from that whose audience are Gentiles?

2. Did Paul's doctrine on salvation differ from Peter's,James'?

That verse is as self-explanatory as your moniker. What is there to relate? Indulge me?

The problem is the brick wall and blindness that the Jewsish nation have been struck by-

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

It is much easier for an Igbo man to accept Christ to a Jewish man who is steeped in the ways and tradition of their fathers. God have since moved from Judaism to Christianity but the nation of Israel won't accept this truth as a nation.

2) The man that has the doctrine of salvation is Paul. The message of salvation was revealed to him by the risen Christ. He does personalise it a lot, you hear him say things like 'my gospel'.

He explained step by step details on how we can be saved. He unveiled God's wisdom and mysteries that was hid in the past. He was not taught by man but by the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit. Paul is more or less the speaker who held the office of the Holy Spirit.

vooks:
it means stewardship or an arranged plan or scheme.

Let me ask you something. What does it take for a Jew to be born again in 2015? Is it any different from an Igbo?

Thanks Vooks

Can you please relate your definition to what you think Paul is talking about here-

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

vooks:
Let me ask you something. What does it take for a Jew to be born again in 2015? Is it any different from an Igbo?

absolutely the same.

vooks:
it is pointless veering off Hebrews to pursue Dispensationalism imagined by John Darby, a subject with thousands of pages on it. This is classic Shdemidemi running away from the Truth.

Let me grant you, whatever you imagine Dispensation is, I will gladly work with that. With that behind us, Can you please answer my questions? Line upon line, precept upon precept

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

My friend, I have been asking you this question way before your 'Hebrew' question and that explains why I insist you answer it.

Giving a dumb answer won't count either plus you don't need to write a whole book on topic.

vooks:
Please educate me on what DISPENSATION is.

But before that, Please answer this question1 as coherently as your brains can afford, unless you are lying and have PROBLEMS answering it

Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

There is no point doing this ping pong style debate. If you can't comprehensively explain what 'dispensation' means then we should not be having this debate at all cos you won't understand the other tricky parts.

vooks:
Then please do
What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

μέτοχος (metochos)
Strng: G3353
GK: G3581

a partaker, Heb. 3:1, 14; 6:4; 12:8; an associate, partner, fellow, Lk. 5:7; Heb. 1:9

[size=40pt]DISPENSATION[/size], Explain.

BabaGnoni:
vooks is a sniper, highly trained marksman as it is, picks and takes targets out, one by one, from a distance with exceeding capabilities
and you I know you are MI5/MI6 trained so it is a matter of Isaiah 54:17
- you match each other

MI5 ke...noooo. I am only presenting what I read from scriptures. Take me outside sripture, this guy go finish me.

vooks:
Let us now go back to Hebrews


Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

from verse 4, 'those'
1. WERE enlightened
2. Tasted of the heavenly gift
3. Were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost
4. Tasted the good word of the LORD and the powers of the world to come

What do you understand by this phrase, 'were made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost'?

My friend, I have no problem answering your questions. All I ask is for us to deal with the issue of 'dispensation', it will sure expand our horizon on this topic. Paul spoke about it, did it really mean anything?

BabaGnoni:
vooks salivating and patiently corralling since 1000 BC
I fleetingly saw vooks almost bring the halo down the neck to choke with and go for the kill

See me see the bobo o..setting up a snare for me like one detective wey no know work

vooks:
The reason I asked is because I desired we be on the SAME page namely, ANY residence of the Holy Spirit in a believer from Pentecost is permanent. Just that. Thanks

The initiation period was of course at Pentecost but we must understand it was a fading away period. A shift from the Jewish nation to the church. The book of Acts is a progressive and historical record of this shift from the Old to the New.

ayoku777:
No No No! You're wrong!

God did not cut off the Jew UNTIL they rejected Christ.

Romans 11v20 -Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standeth by faith.

Even after Jesus died and rose from the dead, He still told His disciples to begin preaching the gospel from Jerusalem, and Judea and in Samaria.

Many times you will hear Paul say "To the Jew first" in Romans 1.

God did not judge and cut off Israel, the moment Jesus left heaven. Or even after he rose from the dead. They were rejected after they rejected Christ and His gospel.

And what do you mean that must there be a flip side and what if Johnny never gets to do physics?

Will I ask him to get an A in physics if he won't take physics. And isn't the flip side of it be that if he doesn't get an A, I will collect the phone?

He that overcomes I will not blot out His name from the book of life. Has exactly the same flip.

And what difference does it make if Jesus is talking to an individual or to everyone in the church?

Ok here's another flip assingment to a larger audience.

Anyone who gets an A in physics will not be removed from the state bursary.

What's the flip side of this?

Why was John the baptist sent to the nation of Israel?

Why did Jesus come?

Check Luke 13:6, one of the parables that depict judgement upon the nation of Israel.

The dresser being John the baptist

Fig tree is Israel

Owner of vineyard- God

vooks:
Thank you.
If Holy Spirit temporarily enabled whomever He came upon, that is HISTORICAL. So you can't say He enables yet He last did that 2000 years ago, you say He enabled.
In the past, God WINKED at sin but NOW He is commanding everyone to repent.
In the past, God spoke in diverse ways, in these last days He HAS spoken

So, can we agree that EVERY instance the Holy Spirit resides or comes upon a believer( He does not infill unbelievers), it is PERMANENT?

We will tackle dispensation later on. And if you are careful enough, we did. Jog your memory

Who says He is not enabling us today, you have so much on your mind that you think I am saying but in actual fact I am not saying them.

It is no rocket science to grasp the capacity at which the Holy Spirit operated in the old to the roles He plays in today's church.

May be, if you deal with this issue of dispensation and stop avoiding it, you will realise what 'justification' is all about in the context of today's church.

frosbel:
The real thing must have much counterfeit like you said , so tell me , which one is the counterfeit, yours or vook's or the hundred others ??

Hmm.

None is counterfeit. I believe we both believe the inerrancy of scripture but well apart in our understanding or interpretation. We will keep learning and learning from the book. Thanks for your concern(s).

vooks:
Please give me PROOF of Holy Spirit residing in believers temporarily now that you believe that. What's your basis?

My dear friend, I begged you not to evade the question on 'dispensation' but you did, why?

I never said Holy Spirit dwell in believers temporarily, He lives in us permanently. In the Old Testament i.e before Christianity He temporarily enables whomever He comes upon.

ayoku777:
God cut off Israel after they rejected Christ as a nation. And salvation became a personal thing for every individual, jew or gentile.

And how does all this proof that those who don't overcome will not have their names blotted out.

.

God judged Israel the moment Christ left heaven. The ax was already at the root of the tree. Jesus came to die- that was His main mission on earth. His death means one thing to the nation of Israel- JUDGEMENT.

According to God's foreknowledge He judged the nation of Israel.

ayoku777:
Johnny, If you get an A in physics I will not collect your phone from you.

Must there be a flip side? What if Johnny never gets to do the physics?

Moreover, the analogy isn't fitting cos Jesus isn't addressing just johnny but every one present.

'He that overcometh'

frosbel:
And they still can't agree on what the 'infallible' bible says, someone's gotta be right, .

One 'inerrant' bible and hundreds of diverging and disparate views !!

That makes me believe the bible even more. Only a real thing can possibly have this much counterfeit. Ignoring the bible means submitting to Frosbel and his daddy.

vooks:
Yes I do understand that on the basis of those TWO occurences of the word DISPENSATION we have Dispensation Theology

Now, DOES the Holy Spirit RESIDE in some men temporarily? It's YES/NO


When I was in High School, I used to be a reggae singer and rapper. Now am not. This should help you

For your question, you probably want me to anwer it a thousand times before you acknowledge it... I say YES YES YES......


On those two occurrences, what do you think they mean?

Don't evade the question.