₦airaland Forum

vooks:
FortresOfChrist
I know your thread has been jacked.
here is my response to you
1. Believers can and they do sin though this is by going against the very same conscience Jesus raised in them when He saved/justified them

2. God hates sin

3. God is on record casting believers to hell. You have Matthew which we hammered before, John 15 with Jesus exhorting his disciples to REMAIN in Him lest they are cut off, Acts 8 of Simon Magus who believed,was baptized and recieved Holy Spirit yet he was rebuked by Peter. He turned out to be the worst persecutor of the church, Hebrews 6 and 3:15 warning us on the dangers of apostasy. You have innumerable warnings against falling away.

4. Nobody can undo what Christ has done in you except you alone. The devil could not rob Jesus of his position but attempted to tempt him to rebel against God. He failed but he succeeded with Adam and you see the consequences. Adam was only as secure as long as he remained in obedience.

5. The lie that a born again believer can never go to hell is actually a lie from hell. Faith is not a historical event but a lifestyle. You are saved by faith and you remain saved by faith. Think of all the warnings and caution against sin in the NT. What purpose do they serve?

Thank you and have a good week ahead

All said without one scriptural reference, hmmm.

frosbel:
No.

Which means you are not a sinner, right?

frosbel:
Asking me ?

Reexaming all my earlier held positions, however I believe what the writer of 1 John says when he makes this remark ;

"The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." - 1 John 3:8

It beats me why anyone will take the position that someone who is of the devil will be saved at the end ??

Do you do what is sinful?

successking:
This kind of analysis does not worth posting. Use your time for something better.

Guess you do not want to engage your mind.

frosbel:
lol , can you see why there is so much confusion among you bible thumpers ?

The foundation is not well laid and hence the building is showing cracks and will collapse not long from now.

How can one bible produce so much confusion and disagreement ? Surely this is testament to it's fallibility and errancy , no ?

Did you read the OP, what do you think?

Seun shouldn't be selfish here... Nigerians have been systematically forced to choose one of two evils

1 buhari - disciplined dictator who had clearly offended you and many

2 uncle Jo- whom under his government 2000 Nigerians were killed in one day yet he finds time to celebrate and campaign at a time the entire country should be mourning the death of these innocent Nigerians. It's as if nothing happened- business as usual.


I think the better devil is Buhari, what say you, Seun?

^^ does not deserve a response

Ubenedictus:
It is the beauty on commenting late.

I am not a religion police, and yes every christian teaching flying around seems to have its own history. Yours started in the 16th century and the main culprit is Calvin, unfortunately you have gone over and beyond you have decided to be the authority on the canon and you are now deciding "levels of inspiration" of different books in the bible.

Luther must be proud.



don't worry u'll see my own beliefs.

You are the one doing the grouping, I have never said I am a Calvinist. I might not agree to all of his views you never know.

Can't wait to hear your views as well, I understand the part where you say it can be overwhelming arriving late to a thread as this one.

Who made UBenedictus a religion police?

All you want to do is call people names and group them based on their beliefs. When will you actually give your own response to the OP so everyone learn the truth from you?

BabaGnoni:
Hiswordxray, ah-ha, spare the sarcasm, the bolds in Acts 1:8 and Acts 11:9 are instructive enough and self-explanatory

Besides, as earlier mentioned, the gospel is the same. The gospel never changed
The message, the recipients of the message, the timing of the message etcetera are all progressive

God is not the author of confusion. Jesus is not contradicting himself. Jesus is NOT wanting any to take "this wrong Gospel" to the gentiles but to take the SAME gospel to the ends of the earth (i.e. reaching the gentiles)

Peter & Co was shuffling feet and dilly dallying, so Jesus had to engage Paul.

Thank you Babagnoni ...

Guess what Peter said when God held him by his ears to the house of Cornelius-
Acts 10
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

28 And he said unto them, [size=22pt]Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation[/size]; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


Peter wouldn't have gone to the house of a Gentile in a hundred years if God did not force him there the way He did. Even after all Jesus had said before He left in His parables and all He said before ascending, Peter was still held back by the supposed law of the Jews. He just couldn't get rid of the law and I must confess it isn't that easy because what that means is- you against your nation, complete isolation, unimaginable persecution. That was all they knew, lived, believed even until this day, a shift from their law will take only God's doing.

Even the fierce and bold Paul shuddered at some point when around them. They tried all they could to kill him even when his case was being heard in court. The Jews and the law of Moses and tradition of their fathers are almost inseparable. They have been blinded by God that they may not see until the fullness of the Gentiles. Imagine the resistance Jesus met when He tried, they killed Jesus because of their law like they have killed all other prophets in the past according to Stephen.

I have a feeling, God chose Paul to do the job because of his assertive character. I also feel his doggedness influenced his reason for saying a woman cannot or should not hold that position of a bishop or teach the word as a leader in church. You really have to step on toes and stand firm on the word, most women are not wired this way. Only a few men can be so insistent and forceful as Paul. He tried to bring that pass that part of him on Timothy.

P.S I just dey gist..

Hiswordxray:
Peter and James spread the wrong Gospel and Jesus also what them to take this wrong Gospel to the gentiles?
Wow! your version of Jesus is wicked, thank God that Paul came to fix Jesus failure.

Well, you do not have to agree, pick your bible to revise the book of the Acts of Apostles, you just might see things differently.

Jesus had taught Peter and the rest so many things in parables, He sometimes explain these parables in ways He wouldn't explain it in public. Even his death and resurrection was explained to them. But what did they do after he was captured and killed, they all went their separate ways thinking the episode was over.

None of them went back to the sepulchre, you would have expected them to. They just couldn't comprehend all Jesus was saying to them, could they? Jesus had told them in different ways that He would be killed and He will rise after three days, yet Peter fought teeth and nails when the time came for Jesus to fulfil what He had come to the world to do.

When Peter was asked by the remorseful jews on how they could amend their wrongs, Peter replied saying-
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, [size=20pt]Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins[/size], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Repent for remission of sin

Water baptism to receive the Holy Ghost!


When Paul came on board, this idea and concept of remission of sin and receiving the Holy Ghost gradually became incorporated in the gospel.

Paul will say- I have not been sent to baptise anyone, but to preach the gospel. Baptism and remission of sin and the gift of Holy Spirit are spiritually taken care of just by the acceptance of the gospel. Romans 1:16

Paul was asked a similar question the jews asked Peter, guess what is response was..
Acts 16
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, [size=22pt]Believe[/size] on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

This is different from physical baptism, repentance (beating yourself down) for remittance of sin and all of those religious rituals associated with religion.

BabaGnoni:
I never suggested that 'disobedience' is to replace loss of faith,
I wrote was "departing from what he knew"
The departure preceded 'disobedience' (i.e. rejecting His word)
He lost the trust in God after the 'disobedience'
Or did he not lose the trust of God?
- God put measures in place and made sure he didnt hang around the neighbourhood after that

You brought Israel on into this so I've tried to use a bit from some of the parallels it shares with Adam

.

BabaGnoni:
I said "... apart from God earlier guaranteeing so, Adam eating the fruit or Adam disobeying God, why did Adam die? "
Why do you have to parrot in "Adam died because he disobeyed" after the hint not to?
We all know that much, anyway it doesnt matter. You've repeated it, no point crying over split milk

This by the minute is becoming interestingly more.

So when you say "...He acted against what he knew..." that in essence means he departed from the faith
He ultimately and effectively lost the faith in disobeying (i.e. departing from what he knew)

He died as a result of losing that faith out of disobedience (i.e. stemmed out of departing from what he knew)

^^^
Dont forget responding

You won't let this slide BabaG..ok

I think our different meanings behind the word 'faith' is where the issue is.

I have faith in God.. This means I trust God.

If I go against God's instruction out of my volition, this in no way mean I have lost faith/trust in God.

I have only disobeyed the God I trust.


You will agree with me that if 'disobedience' is to replace loss of faith, you and I probably lose our faith daily.

The sort of disobedience that equals that of Adam today is when we refuse to accept Christ. An example of this is why israel is suffering spiritual blindness at the minute

Romans 10:21
21 But regarding Israel, God said,

“All day long I opened my arms to them,
but they were disobedient and rebellious.

The sort of disobedience that made God cut off his own begotten people. They have faith in God but they lack wisdom, and they became disobedient to God by rejecting His son.

Hiswordxray:
OK, Peter and James were sent to go and mislead the Jews by preaching the wrong Gospel of works. While Paul was sent to preach the right Gospel of faith.
And Jesus failed in training his disciples despite how he tried to emphasize faith in his ministry.
Isn't that what you are saying?

Peter and the rest were commissioned to do a job.
Acts 1
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Jesus had told them to take the gospels to Gentiles but -

Acts 11:9

Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews.

Paul was called by Christ to do the job that needed to be done, which was to take the gospel to Gentiles.

Hiswordxray:
If the Church is the body of Jesus and Jesus is the vine then it is only logical to say the branches which is a part of the vine is the Church.
Jesus came to built the Church and when he was alive he built and place the twelve foundation stones of the Church (Rev 21:14).
The Church hasn't fully emerge when Jesus was alive but the foundation was there.
In John 15 Jesus was referring to the foundation stones and the future Church not Israel.
Israel is not the body of Christ but the Church is.
Can you see.

Bro, you are mixing noodles with okro you will purge o.

Hiswordxray:
Paul met Peter and James at the early stage of is ministry (although not too early but before he fully accept is mission to the Gentiles). Why didn't he update them?
And I'm sure the book of James was written after James met Paul. Then why isn't it updated?

Paul was not sent to impose what he heard on James or Peter. He was sent to the Gentiles. Remember God had appeared to Peter in a trance to reveal a change in operations when he was ordered to visit Cornelius. That was the only reason Peter admitted to what Paul was saying. Peter became an alibi of some sort when the issue about the Gentiles was raised among the Jewish believers.

Goshen360:
Abeg make we leaf am like that, most part\somethings I'm with you and some we disagree, so I will just leaf am like that plus, you know say I will definitely chat and contribute supposing I have time. I'm doing a lot this time so get somethings done so, nairaland is least of my schedule.

ok. would have been nice to see what part we disagree though. Do what you got to do, May God guide and see you through.

Goshen360:
Chei, una don scatter ground for this thread oo...... . I no even fit catch up again. Anyway, make una enjoy....Happy Sunday to all.

Noo..I no gree. U must download your part of the fight of faith here...lol

vooks:
No they were not.

Do you agree he was talking to INDIVIDUALS about the need to continue/abide in him and not a nation?

This guy and his style of argument. I asked you a question you return with a question.

Were Gentiles included in all of this, at the time when Jesus was speaking? SIMPLE

vooks:
He was talking to individuals not to a nation. You claim the branches are Israel nation. Do you think before typing away? What about after?

Were Gentiles included in all of this, at the time when Jesus was speaking?

BabaGnoni:
so what is the faith Adam did not depart from then bro?
What exactly is/was this faith?. Hmm?
Also apart from God earlier guaranteeing so, Adam eating the fruit or Adam disobeying God, why did Adam die?

The only faith you can associate with Adam is that he heard from God and he believed what he heard.

Adam died because he disobeyed. He acted against what he knew.

Hiswordxray:
What is the Church?
Who are part of the Church?

The church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ

Everyone who believe the gospel are part of this body.

Hiswordxray:
I'm sorry if you think am insulting you but in just trying to point you to your foolishness.
So Peter and James who were taught by Jesus himself preached what they know but it was different from what this same Jesus taught Paul.

Wow! Why is Jesus contradicting himself?
Why did he taught Peter and James the wrong gospel or didn't Peter and James teach what Jesus taught them?

You don't need to be sorry, we only need to respect each other regardless of opinions.

I will tell you about a man Called Apollos, he was a Jew, a teacher of the law and he was not just that, he was eloquent. He came in touch with a couple that had been taught by Apostle Paul about GRACE. This couple called him aside after they had listened to him. Guess what, he upgraded his message.

Acts 18
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God [size=20pt]more perfectly.[/size]

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through [size=20pt]grace[/size]:

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


Jesus taught them what they needed to know before his passion. If He taught them everything, there will be no need for Paul. Paul came on the scene and all is history.

There is a reason why the muslims sort of reverence their mohammed than who they call Jesus. They believe the last message is the greatest message. Paul's message was the last message to the church concerning our salvation.

Gal 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Hiswordxray:
"7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will b ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you."(John 15:7)
"53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, h and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me." (John 6:53-57)
Those Who abide in Jesus are the Church.

Do all Israelites abide in Jesus?
Or is it only the Church that abide in Jesus?

Since the wife is one with het husband did Jesus have two bride? 1). the Church 2).Israelites.

There was nothing like a church(Jew and Gentile) at this time, Jesus was speaking to the Jews who needed to accept Him as their king to start a kingdom where Jesus will rule them. Gentiles were not a part of all of this.

Gentiles were brought in majorly by Paul (after Jesus' death and resurrection), who said this
Ephesians 2:12
[size=20pt]remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.[/size]

vooks:
1. John is addressing those who are ALREADY in Christ and the exhortation is on them to REMAIN.

2. verse 6 and 7 makes it clear he is talking about individuals

John 15:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Look at at another very similar exhortation to verse 7

John 8:31 King James Version (KJV)

31 [size=26pt]Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him[/size], If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

So the abiding teaching is [size=20pt]for those who BELIEVED[/size] in Jesus. Look up the Greek construction of 8:31 and 15:7 if your brains can handle that.

So it is your job to show us that such clear and personal messages are National. Start your azonto dances

Better!

Did you see the part where it says Jesus was speaking to Jews?

Do you realise Jesus instructed the disciples from taking the message of the kingdom to Gentiles at this point?

BabaGnoni:
I feel good, after just having my breakfast, much better now
- the honey in the meal's kicked in

Good for you bro.. I will be needing s'thing to gobble real soon.

BabaGnoni:
I wasnt comfortable with myself seeing you dug your heels in this rabbit hole

Hope you didn't choke though, I need to keep reading from you o..please

BabaGnoni:
OK, yes, you can disobey without losing faith

We don win jokes

BabaGnoni:
BUT when one departs from faith, one loses faith.
That is what Adam did, he departed from the faith and disobeyed God.
Adam departed from the word of God hence he lost faith in God. He lost faith in the word of God

As I narrated in my SatNav illustration, though I was given a correct instruction, I lost faith in it by departing from my faith in
and went ahead to disobey it's good and valid instruction because I envisaged a better option

Adam did not depart from faith bro, he disobeyed and he got the ramification of his action.

Disobedience today is when you don't accept Christ or believe His gospel. Once you obey you get a new spirit that can never die.

Hiswordxray:
So James and Peter preach the wrong gospel and Paul agree with them and allowed them preach the wrong gospel to Israelites he loves so much.

When will you see your foolishness?

Don't use insult bro, we can use scripture.

James and Peter preached what they knew, what they had been taught but Paul had an encounter with Christ after all of that, where Jesus taught him what he needs him to aver.
Acts 26
12 “One day I was on such a mission to Damascus, armed with the authority and commission of the leading priests. 13 About noon, Your Majesty, as I was on the road, a light from heaven brighter than the sun shone down on me and my companions. 14 We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[d] ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is useless for you to fight against my will.[e]’

15 “‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.

“And the Lord replied, ‘I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting. 16 Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. Tell people that you have seen me, and tell them what [size=26pt]I will show you in the future[/size]. 17 And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, [size=26pt]I am sending you to the Gentiles [/size]

vooks:
Spewing garbage since the 60s
If John is talking about Israel, and Jesus is the Vine, what is Israel?

Secondly, the imagery of Romans is totally different from that of John. Their similarity ends with the vine.

Mr lazy critic

Israel is the branch that is to be cut off.

The onus is on you to show us the difference if there are.

Hiswordxray:
OK I see, there are two ways to heaven.
1) By by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
2) By works through works in Christ Jesus.

Wow! You know the Bible too well

Know bible ke, please o!!!

There is only one way to heaven as we speak and that is through Christ plus noting. Paul tried all he could to teach the believing Jews this gospel even in his epistles.
[size=22pt]Romans
10 Dear brothers and sisters,[a] the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved. 2 I know what enthusiasm they have for God, but it is misdirected zeal. 3 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. 4 For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given.[b] As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.[/size]

Hiswordxray:
What did Jesus mean in these verses:
"5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6-6)

This was a message to the nation of Israel, it is similar to what you will find in Rom 10 where Paul said they(Israel) have been cut off and replaced by a wild olive tree(Gentiles).

He said something similar in a parable in Mark 15(I think) where he talked about a tree that has refuse to bear fruit. He said the ax was set at the root, but the gardener pleaded that the tree be kept for three more years to see if it will be any better.

All of Jesus' parables were directed at the Jews, He was restricted from talking directly about the church(FAITH ALONE) because He had to die first. We can learn from those parables but they were not speaking directly to the church.

Bidam:
Oga i still don't get you o..Just stating my views on justification though.

Ok o.. your views carry weight than all I have been saying for a whole day

Hiswordxray:
So you are saying there are two gospels: the gospel of faith and the gospel of works.
Paul preach the gospel of faith.
While James preach the gospel of works.

So which gospel take you to heaven?

The bible records two or three occasions where Paul and the other disciples took their messages to their separate audience. Paul says 'I was sent to the Gentiles', he calls himself the Apostle appointed to the Gentiles. James and Peter wrote their letters primarily to the scattered Jews, they both agreed at the conference held in Jerusalem to stay with the Jews while Paul go to the Gentiles.

Gal 2
2 I went there because God revealed to me that I should go. While I was there I met privately with those considered to be leaders of the church and shared with them [size=24pt]the message[/size] (if you are a stickler for language, you will understand 'the message' won't be used if it is exactly the same as the other message)I had been preaching to the Gentiles.

9 In fact, James, Peter,[c] and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. [size=24pt]They encouraged us to keep preaching to the Gentiles, while they continued their work with the Jews.[/size]