₦airaland Forum

igbo2011: I blame them for all the wars in Africa, most are funded by them. Without those wars Africa would be a lot better. Also those famines are caused by drone in Somalia. Those corrupt leader are funded and backed by the west. The colonial pact is backed by France. but besides that it i African's fault for not rising up and supporting each other. Being so tribal is our wort problem. Also religion is holding us back. Suffering and smiling. We pray for everything and we don't get anything.We need to top praying and start fighting for our rights.

I know how you feel and you are right in certain issues but if you had dealt with Africans as i had then you might not be too quick to say "rise up and fight" examples:
Ojukwu being educated and understanding imperialism was approached by the Russians at the onset of the war and was asked to conceed the nations oil to russia for 2 decades in return for Russias assistance and he refused, Gowon on the other hand whom has already accepted the Aburi Accord was tricked by the Brits due to his ignorance to reject it again and the British intelligence analysts knowing fully well that it would lead to war and that would put Nigeria back into british hands hence Neo-colonialism pushed on. The Yorubas Awolowo who would have been the balance in the situation and would have demoralised the North and stopped war had he joined the EAST as he PROMISED was met by the brits as well and after certain promises sold out his nation. The brits knew Ojukwu was educated so they dare not meet him because he will be a bad puppet and may not agree. Looking at this scenario from an analyst point of view " arise and fight" would be a very bad option. What we need is a way to foster unity by education and uproot there puppets then have the mass identify our common enemy. All these could be achieved without fighting because once we fight again it would be another chance to destroy all we have worked for and it may take another 50 years to get ready again.
The only place i lay blame on the whites is Colonialism because they use physical force to subdue and kill millions of black africans. It is only sad that Nigerians are ignorant and does not learn their history, i grew up in france and in school we are taught how french soldiers butchered the africans in thousand and we praise their bravery and valor, we learn how they quelled numerous rebellion in great detail with all the gore and meanness BUT here in Nigeria children were taught that the missionaries came and colonized us leaving out stuffs like the Ekumeku and others, how then can such ignorant and indoctrinated minds liberate themselver ? How can they ever love their nation ?
God save us all.

What the Deltans did was only a preventive measure in order to stall their operations at the other side of the Niger. Anambra would have to consider serious damage control measures in order to contain this monster before it is fully grown.

amosy007: hmmmm so are u saying massob is now a criminal gang?

Lets not allow sentiments to blind reason and fairness, Any educated individual that resides in onitsha would designate MASSOB as not only criminal but anti-people, MASSOB both by composition of it ranks and character of profile is criminal through and through, a description of their nature as we have witnessed can also be attributed to any criminal organisation we know that deals in extortion,intimidation and buglary.
I wish to see me proved otherwise.

I really commend the Asaba police and the Judge to detering those hoodlums from operating in Delta State. Anybody who has been to Onitsha recently would find out that these MASSOB bastards are just looting, intimidating and harrasing Anambrarians. I will be happy if they were all shot dead. Any gainfully employed person i have talked with hates them. How can a bunch of uneducated vile Okada riders get biafra ? Do they get biafra by harrasing and extorting Igbos ? That MASSOB(Onitsha in particular) is nothing but a criminal gang made up of jobless and uneducated vagabonds run by a sort of mafia boss for money making. What they do now is :
1.If you are building a new house they would come and ask for settlement.
2. If your shipment arrives and you are offloading they would come and ask for Settlement and maybe take a few of your wares.
3. If you are repairing your gutter you have settle Massob.
4. If you want to place a signpost you have to settle Massob.
5. If you have issues with somebody no matter who is wrong the Massob guys can be HIRED to intimidate the person and beat the life out of him.
Everybody in Onitsha is now afraid of okada riders as they make the bulk of Massob. They are known as "Ndi Mama", "Ndi a na- ama aka" and "Umuaka Red".
I use to ally with MASSOB and after experiencing the first batch back in 2004 i sent a huge sum to them when i got back to Europe, the ones i knew then were matured and educated men, when i came back last August those men told me they now have nothing to do with MASSOB as it is now a criminal and lawless organisation.

RSA: Funny how we just follow what the western media tell us about what's in our backround.They said the same thing about Zimbabwe and Mugabe when he allowed white Brits to own 90% of all commercial farm land in Zimbabwe.They said Zimbabwe is a true model of democracy in Africa,that Mugabe is the brightest African leader,the most educated.They said all this things while he was busy with ethnic cleansing of Ndebele people in his backyards.And we all know what he is called now after listening to real Zimbabweans.

Did you know that Botswana has been ruled by the same party since they gain independence in 1966? That there is no freedom of press in that country? That Basarwa people(Bushmen/Khoisans) are chased from their land in the Kgalagadi without compensation nor a place to live to make way for diamond mining companies? Opposition politics are almost none existence.
And that the current President Seretse Ian Khama is the son of the founding President of Botswana,Sir Seretse Khama.So they run this country like a family business.The President's brother,cousins and relatives are all heading different government departments.

But then when you lick the western government's a%%s,Nobody remember or see the bad in you.So good luck to all the countries that want to model their democracy to that of Botswana.As for me I'll pass for now.

You are right in many things you said and i am aware but it remains true that our pre-colonial system is better than what we have now.

HNosegbe: Its a bit too simplistic to compare Nigeria with Botswana. Botswana is a country of only about two million people who are, for the most part, relatively homogenous culturally. Nigeria is way to complex to follow the example of a country of two million people.

And its also not true that Botswana has no natural resources, its a country rich in gold and diamonds.

So while I believe Botswana has shown a good example generally, I also believe its up to us to forge our own path. What worked for Botswana won't necessarily work for us.

What worked for Bostwana is True democracy and that would work in any country including Nigeria irrespective of size,demographics,resources and religion.
The whiteman has always supported what benefits him no matter how horrible it is and would continue to do so as far as there is something to gain from it. They have surpported tyrants,dictator and outright mad men as leaders, they have overthrown democratically elected goverments in many countries and in its place installed either a puppet civilian goverment where the masses are ignorant and uninformed like Nigeria or a military tyrant where the masses are enlightened and may rise against the imperialists.
The igbos don't believe in Kingship or any form of dictatorial rule they were democratic through and through, they had no igwes before britain arrived and the Eze of Nri holds a ceremonial role; now why would the british introduce Kingship and undermine our system of goverment?
Why would the forcefully push a town to answer to one man (the brits introduced the Igwes)?
Is it that true democracy would hamper their exploitative relationship with africans or that they know that a system whereby the interests of the masses takes priority is not benefiting or is it both ?
Brethrens, please understand that i don't blame the whiteman for ANY of africas problem but i am presenting facts in a way that people would think for themselves and maybe make better judgement.

igbo2011: Yeah, I feel you man. But Neo-colonialism is holing Africa back. We need to ALL rise up. If All of Africa were to ack up Libya then we might be free of neo colonialism. Remember during slavery when one slave misbehaved they would kill him and show an example to the rest. I all of the slaves were to mis behave and rise up then the master would be running for his life. We le them destroy Libya and we didnt back up Gaddafi even though he was for Africa.

The white man plays a role but weneed to blame ourselves too. We must UNITE as one. We must buy African products instead of European or Chinese ones. We need to do busines with each other and loe each other. We must trust each other instead of our enemies. I am trying to start a movement: www.nigerianedp.com

I have tried to alert people in my other posts that Nigeria is currently in the grind and we are being driven by the unseen hands of neo-colonialism to our doom but they would just cast you aside as a Conspiracy Theorist and that makes you wonder if the majority has common sense at all. Nigeria is in a war, our only DEFENCE is DISCIPLINE. Nigeria is in a war and our only WEAPON is UNITY. As long as people don't unite and still look on to these Imperialist puppets we have as a goverment to effect change we will continue to suffer. As long as people don't enlighten themselves and still look up to the west as a role model we will continue to fail. As long as we don't rise up and instill Discipline and punish those that looted the state treasury irrespective of what the bastard west screams about human rights our effort at a better society would always be frustrated.
As long as Africa practice western style democracy we would never be democratic.
Mind you the Igbos practiced TRUE democracy thousands of years before the bloody Colonialist came.

Had Bostwana had mineral resources like oil, you would have had the west criticizing his model of democracy and propagating heinous propaganda against the governments, and if that does not work then you will have a coup in the country that is supported by the western world and the media will term it as a REVOLUTION. Then things would start to degenerate , either a war broke out or the corrupt puppets privatizes the whole nation and the masses as poor as dirt.
You would hear phrases as "Bostwana the only country in Africa still in the 1600's " OR "Bostwana: No Senators No Democracy" or " Bostwanian CHIEFS and KINGS living off the poor PEASANTS" believe me the Nigerian masses would be the first to support the rebels and tout themselves as having the MODERN style of Democracy and somehow better and advanced than Bostwana.

The only problem with this kind of post is that it hardly makes the front page, you know as i found out when i first came to Nigeria that majority of Nigerians still believe Idi Amin was evil, that he eats human meat, he kills people senselessly and also anyone that opposes him, when i try to argue with them that all that was propaganda even the elderly ones( one of my aunt who is university professor) hushed me , that was around 1990 and i was still young. now most still do.They find it hard to educate themselves, and they believe reading about their history is a very boring thing to do, national archives is for professors only, and anything reported by foreign media is true and always remain true.
I will wait and see what people will say about this. ( lets keep Qaddafi in mind)

people should not allow any incursion to the traditions and customs of the people, the only outcome will be hijacking of traditional and local institutions and instilling nationwide corruption down to cultural realms(which remains our last stand to neo-colonialism) and gradual privatization of those institutions. Once our cultural heritage and instituted procedures are eroded we will loose our identity and if you people ever think of the consequences of that you will see reasons to fight vehemently against this incursion.

The president is under the control and mastery of the party whereby the party serves the interest of few elites at the dertiment of the poor masses that voted for them. WELCOME TO WESTERN STYLED DEMOCRACY, the only form of goverment that is suited for goverment infiltration,formenting corruption and overthrowing mass opinion, garnish with privatisations and you have a goverment that has no balls, no say over the needs of the people, no control over the economy or tools to regulate the economy, subservient to the conglomerates that own the amenities and therefore the country, A privatized Goverment for bussinessmen and private interests. It is time Nigerians start asking themseleves questions if what we HAD is better that what we HAVE.

Rossikk: I'm sorry but we have to go the CAUSES of the corruption. It's not as if Africans are born corrupt, uniquely from everyone else. There must be a CAUSE of THAT. If you bother to study African pre-colonial history, YOU will find that AFRICANS were known to be the most HONEST and UPRIGHT people in the world. The ancient Greeks called them ''beloved of the gods'', ''the blameless Ethiopians''. Ancient Benin, Ancient Mali - these were states ruled with accountability and probity, which became world renowned states during their time. In 16th century Benin, according to one Dutch account, safety was the order of the day, and if a foreigner lost his belongings, such items were carefully kept with the local chief, until the foreigner or his 'brothers' duly informed, came to claim the goods. In Mali, the kings personally went around on horseback, dispensing justice, or observing same by their lieutenants.

Even today, in traditional settings like villages, you rarely see people stealing. Goats and chicken roam around freely. No one thinks to go and steal them to sell or eat.. It's unheard of. It would bring shame to the family of the thief. In Achebe's Things Fall Apart, After Okonkwo killed (by accident) his neighbour, he was given 24 hours to leave town on 7 year exile, with his family. He was not able to (and did not think to) BRIBE the elders with cowries, cows or yams. He did not say ''I am a big boy. It was an accident. I'm rich. I'm going nowhere''.

NO. Instead, the next day he did EXACTLY as was decreed by the community - EXILE.

So Africans LEFT TO THEIR OWN DEVICES are honest, noble people with high standards of civilization and morality.

What we need to do is SHED THE FOREIGN INFLUENCES ON OUR THOUGHT PROCESSES which render us corrupt when faced with manouvering the world of such influences. Our political system today is IMPORTED. Our religions, IMPORTED, our social mores, IMPORTED. ALL DUE TO THE COLONIAL INFLUENCE.

Until we begin to ABANDON that influence and RETURN to WHO WE ARE, by recognising, valuing and then UPDATING our pre-colonial administrative and ethical systems, we shall continue to flounder, and beat up ourselves for failing to master ANOTHER MAN'S WAY.

What you said is the TRUTH but careful analysis and observation has shown me that indoctrinated minds can not be liberated without a form of SHOCK THERAPY. How to go about it becomes entirely another debate.
If you ever raise any objection against western styled democracy you will called names like communist,dictator or outright tyrant.
If you raise any objection on how foreign influence and religions is wiping away our culture hence social order;you will be told your ancestors are primitives,walks around naked and lives in caves so therfore not worthy of emulating.
If you raise objections on Western economic practices they will tell you that the west is richer than your african friends therefore whatever they present(or impose) should be better.
If you raise objections about Foreign interventions in African affairs they wilk start listing how african can't wipe their own ass and would always need the all knowing whiteman to guide her.
Infact majority of african has it programmed into them that nothing africa is good while all that is white is innocent. A nigerian would believe a white guy over his brother any day no matter how bizzare the white dudes point is.
When you try to explain neo-colonialism to them they will just blurt out the "you always blame the whiteman for your problems" cliché.

2buff: what do you mean by revolution? How about you just stay away from China?

If you know how nigerian embassies treat their citizens all over the world,the kind of inferiority complex our officials suffer from,the corruption and inefficiency of our embassies, even at times they take bribes from those countries and turn a blind eye.
I comited a crime and a very big one and MY COUNTRY got me out in 4 months!! If a nigerian had done that he would not be out in 16 years.
Even in my country nigerians are bullied and their stuffs taken,some die in police custody and your embassy official don't give a damn.
I am nigerian though .

There is an Igbo adage that goes like "when you want to kill a dog call it a big name". I think it will do Nigerians good to publicly discredit this aim, other countries where the IMF experiment has been experienced would be a testimony that to misinform the outside world of the hardship that the people of a target country is going through the media and the paid officials project an image of progress whereby the actual situation is different, that sort of disinformation shuts up the voice that is already speaking out on the ongoing slaughter of the economy and derails and removes the interest of those who would have been against such overtures is they have the opportunity to get the real information.
Everybody should discredit this image any little way they can , we as the masses are more powerful that these few paid puppets of the international banking cartels.

Have you noticed that South African girls have the biggest ass in Africa, i still wonder how can a man see those asses and still choose to have S3x with another man.

I have also spent 4 months in Qingdao number 2 prison.
If nigerians are wise this alone is enough to cause a revolution.
Imagine trying to call your family and stupid embassy(most useless and stupid in the whole world) can't put you through. We had two nigerians in our block for visa overstay and the way their embassy treated them was so embarrasing that i felt like crying for my country.

Is this incident real or fiction ?
I know such things happen but just concerned about this particular one.

Negro_Ntns: hahahaha. . . . this topic is funny!!

. . . that's like saying appointing NOI to be President of BP so she can break British control of the oil company.

miseducation of black Africans!!

A very good analogy there my friend.

2sd: This is a clearly thought through argument unlike the OP's myopic and baseless argument.
@OP you need to go back and think through your Points before drawing baseless conclusion.

If you have read carefully the OP and the post you quoted you would have noticed that the OP is talking about thinking critically as in asking oneself unbiased questions, thinking for oneself instead of blindly accepting the prevaling/popular stance, analysing said stance in absence of preconcieved conclusions or sentiments WHILE the person you quoted centers on CREATIVITY as a result of thinking critically. The former requires you to challenge an EXISTING NOTION/condition(a very hard thing for most nigerians) and the later requires you to BRING INTO EXISTENCE a condition. The former which is a good thing is quite lacking; the later which is equally good is aboundant in Nigeria.
I must also say that i have not seen any nation where its citizens are so creative,so adept at averting poverty and surviving not wisthanding the destructive policies of their leaders as Nigeria and that we should rightly be very proud of.

mayoroflag: I will no longer join issues on this topic with you. I wonder what is my incentive to gain so-called acceptance and for what purpose and benefit. You will do well to keep your opinionized judgements to yourself. Your idea of an open mind is pretty vague if it is only as you faultily define it with the impression that every threader comes pre-set as you do on this thread.

1. What is your definition of civilization? You fail to be consistent on what you refer to. If you check at least Wiki you will know that civilization is controversial enough to sometimes be interchanged with empires, so the means of survival of even civilizations (check wiki again) is not entirely found on just critical thinking.

2.If you follow the trail of our exchange (and you understand the concept of critical thinking) consistently you will realise that I changed word nation to empires in response to your argument, not to empires from civilizations. Empires could survive longer than nations, and African kingdoms in history sustained their existence subsuming other nations as was done by most empires. At what point did I claim that empires can be eternally sustained. I said that a culture of knowledge and value system makes the difference how long they can last.

3. Critical thinking is done continuum. The knowledge that helped make a great civilization may not help guarantee its survival. My use of the word "superior knowledge" was to buttress that the knowledge of the moment may become mediocre in the next. And this is where a culture of critical thinking is, well, critical. (See at least, wiki, again)

Threads such as this definitely require a fair enough assumption of background knowledge and a less presumptuous mindset, and possibly, in the light of the thread, a willingness to accommodate opinions without judging context or the pedigree of the person proposing it.

Your posts are now bodering extreme haphazardness, You are just hitting many walls and bouncing back like a tennis ball and becoming more confusing each time, i can no longer pinpoint the actual subject which you are trying to put forward rather you sound more like trying to DEFEND YOURSELF than a CLEAR AND CONSISTENT point.
I have met a lot of your type and if you think you can draw me into the type of argument most nigerians are used to which involves hoping around topics and reducing an argument to mere linguistic platform then having all party leave less informed,confused and tired then you will be dissapointed.
I have put forward several questions which serves as an experiential procedure(also experiencial evidence) that is able to stand or fall on its own and none of you have tried to answer or even think about it.
If you have tried to answer my questions or even think(assuming you can) about it i believe you will find it profoundly illuminating but you didn't.
I commend you on your efforts so far and wish you rethink on the notion which you held so as not to make this experience a waste of time and energy.

Kobojunkie: I didn't need to read the conversation from the beginning since the correction I had to make was to the statements in your last post.

You made statements which were wrong and I simply corrected you. That you now consider there may have been 4 or 5 kings, does not change the fact that your initial statement was wrong.

On slavery, again, you are still wrong. Slavery had NOTHING to do with religion, especially when you consider it is still practiced to this day, by people of all religions in Africa. I know many people think that slavery only happened in America, or the white-mans world but that is not true. Slaves where traded by pagans, christians, muslims, nons , ibos, hausas, yorubas, spanish, europeans, america, arabs indians, chinese, . .etc. So again, your assertion that there was or is some religious link to the practice remains baseless.

Now again note, this is not about your whole post but specific statements which you have made, many more than once now. I am just trying to correct some of the misinformation is all.

I don't know anymore what is your problem whether that of lacking BASIC COMPREHENSION or an urge to make a post which may be giving you same pleasure as an o.r.g.a.s.m.
How can an educated individual make such an arrogant statement as "don't have to read the post" before correcting, how can you dissect what you don't understand ?
The MOST SHAMEFUL part of your post is that you went on to make the same mistake again even after wasting my energy to INFORM YOU that i was "stating that slavery has nothing to do with religion " which goes on to show that you actually don't read the posts at all.
REGURGITATION!! REGURGITATION!! People that regurgitates does not offer any value to the debate and generally considered a nusciance.
I believe that the OP would be greatly amused at this EMBODIMENT of his subject.

Kobojunkie: CORRECTIONS



Wrong! South Eastern Nigeria had kings, and in some places, the title remains.



Slaves where sold to all beings alike, Christians, Pagans, voodoo practishioners, atheics, etc. Slavery had little or nothing to do with Christianity, or Religion, given that the first christians where themselves mostly sold into slavery by the pagans who detested their existence.

Even in Iboland, many of the pagans themselves sold slaves to non-pagans alike. People from one village sold their own prisoners,rejects(osus) as slaves to people of other villages.

No one group on this planet can claim exemption in this. So your choice to target religion remains illogical. Simple research would reveal this.

Your post does not make sense at all, if you had tried reading the post for which that reply was meant for you would have found out that it was him that was trying to tie slavery to africans as a consequence of their religious belief therefore implying that christianity stopped them from continuing and i was stating that the act of slavery does not have anything to do with religion thereof.
There are VERY few(less than 4) towns in the WHOLE of Igboland where there were kings and they still maintained a quasi democratic(making the kings merely ceremonial) form of goverment as opposed to autocratic,dictatorial demigods you have in the western and Northern parts of Nigeria at that time, so his attempt at depicting the rulers as barbarous does not hold.
Looking at posts like yours leaves one to wonder how right the OP would have been with the word "REGURGITATION"
I still fail to understand why people think i am defending a certain religion or criticizing another,my whole post is not about religion but it happens to come up as one of the areas which the OP's point can be properly treated.

mayoroflag: What can support military might if not superior knowledge? What can bring about superior knowledge if not critical thinking?

If every precolonial African empire (not nation) was well thought out and socially cohesive (not whipping-in-line), why could their existence not be sustained? Please avoid mixing your sense of patriotism/ black pan-africanist ideas/ anti-religious rhetoric with the objective arguments. You are making generalized statements without giving any bases of reference.

It is really stressful,regretful and toturing holding a debate with someone whom could not hold a line of thought and whose blind urge to win an argurment totally eclipses his ability to be consistent.
A pattern which you and your likes has always displayed is trying to gain acceptance by puting forward a totally different and unrelated problem and applying a solution given by an opponent on it and wish such to be accepted as discreditation. If you keep jumping around randomly like a tennis ball instead being consistent and supporting CLEAR COMPREHENSIBLE STANCE with reason and logic then am afraid i might loose taste for this exercise.
1: I am talking about CIVILLIZATIONS which is where critical thinking capability can be measured and referenced with established methods in social sciences and psychology but you left our debate and created a new one based on EMPIRES, The later which cannot be ascociated with any form of thinking.
2: You should have know if you understood what you are saying that EMPIRES by definition cannot be eternaly sustained since it involves forcefully almagamating DIFFERENT NATION,EXPLOITING THEM AND DENYING THEM OF THEIR SOVEREIGN FREEDOM. This every student of history knows very well. Maybe you yourself can tell me one empire which has been eternally sustained african,european or asian for that matter.
3: I have a good reason to believe that you in particular does not understand what the term to "think critically" means from the way you relate or equate(i don't know which you are trying to ) Superior Knowledge,i would advise you seek the definition of the term in order to assist you in forming better arguments next time.

I would not acuse you of making GENERALISED STATEMENTS since you never showed the capability of correctly making one neither would i mention the LACK of any form of REFERENCE while observing ALL your posts since your arguments does not share a cohesive BASE rather i would acuse you of not Thinking Critically on the problem which you and i are making efforts at solving.
Xiexie ni.

mayoroflag: Okay I stand to be corrected. Show me, aside from the ancient town of Timbuktu (where the knowledge base was Islam-intensive), where black civilization was built on critical thinking....

I am not interested in who wins the argument. I am only trying to tell you that class in society has not changed. The stranglehold of traditional rulership/ religion has only been reduced by their political authority. Their instinct has been no less different then and now.........

Again I stand to be correct. Don't mix the great civilizations that rose and fell their after on basis of military might in this argument. I am referring to the cultivation of the culture of knowledge. It is that cultivation of the culture of knowledge that differs North America, Europe, and Asia from Africa, Middle East and Latin America today...

each and every precolonial african nation was built on well thought out and socialy cohesive line(critical thinking per se) and i will like you to prove otherwise.
Every civilization has risen on the basis of there military might and i will like you to prove me wrong as well.
The problem with you people is that you do little or no research at all before making your comments rather you believe that any of your belief by divine right is univesally acceptable and undisputably right both which are the characteristics of a Fanatic.

JesusDWay: @thoth. It may take me some time to answer your questions which I don't have now besides, how you have chosen not to directly respond to what I've also asked you should make me wonder, even when some others have repeated particularly the issue of Mary Slessor. Apparently, u seem a student of sociology or psychology and you as well seem to be viewing this topic from the angle of religion- how the white man made the black man believed his religion his better and he accepted without questioning.I however will like to simplify matters, at least based on what we can see around(I do not need to read much of history), which way of life would you have preferred, the way of your forefathers or the new way of life the whites brought? Let's see critical thinking from that angle.

I have not read any national archive neither am I an in-depth student of history but with what I see around me, I think the indoctrination has done far better for us than for us to have continued in our proimitive way of life.

i can't find the question which you are refering to and i will be glad if you help me out.
The case of mary slessor has been treated by many Historians both nigerian and foreigners and i am sure it is no longer worthy of any further debate, to aid the lazy student who would consider it stressfull to research and read long essays i provided a set of questions which requires the students application of critical thinking to arrive at a conclusion but if that is also considered stressful or useless then the OP has done much in defining our student whom only clams and memorizes information,using same formular to solve all problems and incapable of any attempt at verification therefore a waste of time.
Before i make any attempt to your questions can you clarify in a descriptive manner what you meant by the NEW WAY OF LIFE THE WHITES brought and OUR PRIMITIVE WAY OF LIFE ?

seguno2: You don't sound like someone with critical thinking abilities with your off-handed response about Mary Slessor above. You will do better to explain why one should "never mention" the likes of Mary Slessor. I hope you will oblige without delay.

Have tour of the british National Archives and read many of the cables(letters) From the Imperial Niger company to england, it would enlighten you on mary slessor and the role she actually played in covertly subduing the Niger Delta region from agitation against Colonial British exploitations of the region.
She was playing the same role Aid Organisations are playing in Somalia for the West.
To just see how such assertions in our schools had made us Stupid can you :
1: Tell us what She had done ?
2: HOW did she manage to ACOMPLISH IT ?
3: How easy will it be for YOU to make the NORTHERN MUSLIM stop praying facing the east compared to what Slessor did ?
Give it a thought for moment and then enlighten us.

mayoroflag: The closest the black came to critical thinking was Carthage (Study history or see wikipedia). Even Europeans came to study there. Romans destroyed the city for its potential to challenge them in any future.

That was the peak of black civilization in the context of high, logical and critical thinking. And just like subsequent kingdoms in Europe were enslaved by Catholicism for up to the 15th Century, (especially sub-saharan)Africa has still been enslaved by (all manner of) religion to date (and of course, Islam, the middle east and north Africa).

You are implying that on all the great civilizations that arose out of africa that the blacks peak of civillization was Carthage ?
It then shows you don't even know what those terms mean in the first place.
I like how you used the word "ENSLAVED" in your post above both of your posts now do contradict each other.

mayoroflag: @ Thoth

I expect you shld have an open mind about such an issue rather than trying to guide us into hanging "foreign" religion for the issue on the thread.

Our traditional religions supported random sacrifices of virgins to sustain fertility in the land, encouraged killing of twins, deprived women of rights, encouraged polygamous living and slavery. There was a clearly wide gap between the elite and the masses, and it took riches (at that, its influence was limited), competence in war, heredity, or priesthood in traditional religion to cross the social ladder. Others were prone to the whims and caprices of the king and his cohorts. Were these elites not culpable in the slave trade/ Were they not guardians of our traditional religion? Were they not also culpable during military rule (with the notable exception of Alafin of Oyo during the June 12 crisis)?

I am talking about the southeastern part of Nigeria which is the part i was refering to and all those things you mentioned was not practiced there(exept killing of twins which you did not mention),they don't even have kings to begin with. I try to have an openmind in such debates unless that same pattern which i have witness over and over shows up.
Eg. We were talking about the PERIOD of indoctrination of a PARTICULAR geographical area and you hastened to superimpose another Period(june 12) and location Western nigeria on the whole argument then expect any form of acceptance while it clearly shows you niether understand my post nor the topic which we are discusing, instead you are just doing what any fanatic would do which is trying to win an argument solely by presenting information which does not relate to the subject and hoping to derail the opponent by doing so, that my friend is another symptom of an indoctrinated mind.
If you still don't know world economics still revolves around war,intimidation and bowing down to money princes and does not have any relation whatsoever to the religion of a country african or otherwise.
In your rush to make a post you forgot that SLAVES were sold to those same people who were preaching you christianity and they treated the slaves WORSE than africans do but i am quite aware that a prerequisite to being indoctrinated is asserting the view that only the role played by your OWN kind is evil and other party is always right so i will not task you on that.
I suggest you do further reading and research and you might develop that which you expect of me which is an OPEN MIND.
Thanks.

I don't blame the west for any of our problems but lets for a while seriously look deep and analyse the subversive tacticts that has beed downed on Nigeria by the west, the assasinations,war, ethnic tensions and economic hardships you can simply see that people who openly challenge them would not last and it becomes a waste when even when something happenes to them the masses does not care or even protest.
The whole Abacha era if analysed is a long power tussle between Abacha who has a better plan for Nigeria and the destructive west and their agent(nigerians) who wants to loot.
And look any other place in africa if the country fiercly resists them what follows are sanctions and invasion using proxy nations or directly.
You should check out the interview of John Perkins the writer of economic hitman on youtube on which he mentioned Nigeria several times and also state the procedures by which their operations are carried out.

JesusDWay: @thoth. I haven't read any of those however, isn't it true that Christianity turned folks from their barbaric ways of human sacrifices and unecessary wars? If its not, what would you classify Mary Slessor's actions to be?

Since you have not gone through YOUR OWN COUNTRY's archives and has not read any treaties on your country's or africa 's history it follows by logic and your above statement as evidence that you are a victim of the said INDOCTRINATION.
Furthermore your mention of "human sacrifices" in reference to the Traditional religion(southeast in particular) clearly shows that you had not experienced or read any eassy on the cultures of your grandfathers except the distorted and disinforming farce being peddled by pastors and the likes.
Moreover wars as a social phenomenon has been studied over and over and has no affinity to any particular religion african or not, well, i can see how the extremely unjust,brutal and attrocious wars that has been raging and tearing apart your CHRISTIANIZED WORLD is NECESSARY, i believe many of us would prefer our unnecessary wars to having a proclaimed christian nation dropping nukes or anthrax on our heads.
I percieve the innocence of your post and i believe you are not trying to be mischievious but please never mention the likes of mary slessor when having a debate with any proffesor of african history or an enlightened fellow.
On closure please answer these questions
1: as a christian how would you feel when your little kids are taught in their muslim school till university that christians are stupid and islam is the good religion ?
2: If you being a christian can't read or write(as our grandfathers) will you know what your kids are being indoctrinated to do ?
3: is it likely considering basic principles of human cognitive psychology that the said child would grow up to be a muslim and actually see his father as stupid ? If so what are chances by percentage of such outcome ?
4: when you child is encouraged to challenge your belief and you have no right by law to stop him from going to that school that corrupts his mind in fear or being charged of spreading babarism by your white supreme RULERS what do you think the CHILDS conclusion would be if the whiteman can display such power by "knowing the white god" and you and your african god can't do shit ? (read juvenile cognition process before trying to answer )
5:what would be the childs opinion if the people that knows white god can beat you and set your own gods on fire ?
6: To sum it all , as a christian what amount of preaching would a moslem do to you to convert you to Islam ?
Thanks.

bittyend: I'm from the school of thought that at this stage, we've outgrown what the West can do for us - we need to look for alternatives. The west will never treat us equals, and their gun-ho policies are not in the best of our interests.

The world is a free market - and it's high time we started looking for countries which we trade and business with us on a level playing field - and not in a lopsided way. We've been cheated, raped, exploited, and manipulated by the so-called West for too long - it's time to wake up from the slumber, and take our destiny in our own hands.

and we also have to look inwards, and develop our human and natural resources. If Brazil can do it, then Nigeria can.

You are right in all you said but if you look at the level of ignorance around you you will notice that it is those people you are trying to save that would kill you and then run and embrace the west.
I was having a debate with some older and enlightened individuals and i concluded that with the subversive tactics the west currently employes in africa that what nigeria needs at the moment is not a LARGE WESTERN STYLED democracy but a small tight knit military dictatorship made up of patriotic men.
They all agreed with me but pointed out that africans has been brainwashed to believe that anything that the WHITEMAN recomends for them is the right thing. They would go against their saviour once the west screams democracy, the buhari and abacha regime was used as an example and how selfish elements within nigeria was used for disinformation and formenting civil unrest . After that lengthy lecture by those men i was lost on what to say next.
Does it we don't have a solution ?

JesusDWay: @thoth. I quite disagree with your stand on discouraging the teaching of Christian Religious Knowledge in schools. Firstly, i'll like that you tell us here what is bad in how Christianity came into Nigeria which should make us discourage its teachings in our schools. Mixing up the colonial government's activities with Christianity shows an improper knowledge of the events that took place. I'll also like that you cite your source and be a bit more detailed on how Christianity was sustained in the South Eastern part of this country by killings and unlawful detentions. Only a constituted authority has the power to incarcerate, which is not a power that Christianity exercises even in the days of the colonial rule.

I think have mostly mixed colonial rule with the faith, simply because the faith came with the colonial powers.

Have you ever gone through the national archives ?
Have done any reading on the indoctrination of YOUNG africans by forced educations on the basis of "civilizing the babarians and saving the heathens" ?
I capitalized the word "Young" for a purpose and those who are enlightened on Social Psychology both as science and as a weapon would understand what i want to say.
Just answer my questions and i may continue.