₦airaland Forum

KnownUnknown:
The brain is the cause of all mental phenomenon. There is nothing to explain because what you’re claiming cannot be proven nor does it make any sense. What you are claiming is utterly impossible because you CANNOT separate mental phenomena from the physical actions that give rise to them..

How do you know it's a mental phenomenon caused by the brain?
From a direct experience of it or what you read somewhere?


Some persons have OBE at will and decide what they want to experience. I'm sure you don't know about this,.

If that can be done, even if it's just one person, it invalidates your claim that real OBEs are mental phenomenon caused by the brain


Scientist who are currently investigating the phenomenon are very cautious about making any definite pronouncement on the matter., but you that is relying on them is busy making noises everywhere, declaring things that don't find full scientific support yet.

If you think you know it better than them ,why don't you go and prove it and win a Nobel prize in the sciences.

You are on your own.



Read below a scientific study about a lady who can do so at will.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00070/full




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I don’t need to go sourcing for peer review studies to prove to you that mental processes are caused by the brain in conjunction with the other senses. The brain is obviously the primary organ giving rise to mental phenomena, which is why the death of the brain means the death of the person regardless if the other organs are still be kept alive.
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Simce you rely on main stream scientist for your claims ,you need to provide evidence that's peer reviewed ,if not, you trying to force your opinion on me .

it's because you cannot find any, you are making excuses
The subject is not about the cause of mental process , but the cause of OBE. Focus on the topic. You want to put words in my mouth there. This is wrong.

It's true according to science that the brain gives rise to mental phenomenon, but are real OBEs caused by the brain?

Nothing yet to confirm that. Only assumptions.
You don't have all the facts. So what you think be may be wrong.

I agrree that the death of the brain leads to the death of the whole body,but no single evidence whatsoever to back the claim that consciousness, the real person, will cease to exist and not continue to survive in some form after then.

Consciousness may only need brain and a body to experience life in the material plane, but when the body dies , it doesn't need it anymore, just like a diver who will no longer need his oxygen mask when he gets back on shore. I think this should be the casa after the body dies.

Consciousness exist as a form of energy , and it is never destroyed. So how can it die?

You are using your limited human experience to judge what will happen after the body dies, but the body is not the real person.


And where does consciousness goes to after death of the body?
I cannot tell you or be willing to .

Some say it reincarnates, others say so many things we cannot verify.

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There is nothing speculative about that study. All it did is add to the body of evidence that it’s all in your head despite your wants.
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Its speculation because none of the study participant had a real OBE. They only had a feeling of something caused by the brain part that was stimulated .That's all.

No single veridical perception of anything else was reported and confirmed by the researchers, a crucial factor in determining the real from the fake .

Also, the people who conducted the study have not had the experience consciously themselves to know the difference. So how would they know they have studied the correct thing?

Answer me?


The mind is capable of creating anything you want from it , but it has its limit,; it cannot create an OBE that can give you a veridical perception of something that actually exist in the real world. None of the participant had that kind of OBE. What they experienced was mind expansion They didnt go anywhere. Mind is not not the real person.
..

So, it was a sham study with a weak experimental design that cannot pass for anything except for people like you who have not had the real experience before. .

Scientist are not infallible; they can make mistake, lie and be influenced by prejudice in interpreting evidence in front of them. And we have seen that several times in the past


Don't be in hurry. Wait for other corroboratory studies concerning that you shared before jumping into conclusion.

There's a difference between a real OBE and the illusions which the mind can create for one to experience subjectively



You only have a theoretical understanding of the phenomenon and using that to interpret it



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Original of what? The study has ecological standing because it can be generalized.
What’s the difference between the “real OBE” and the OBE they triggered? .

I insist it lacks it..The study did not extend to observing people having it spontaneously, or at will outside close control settings.Go back and read it again

The participant were never observed having the experience under natural conditions

So how can it be generalized?

I don't think you really know what's ecological validity and how it's used in the sciences. Do some further reading or ask a scientist to explain it for you


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Lol, I have an idea. Why don’t you be the subject?
You can have a “real OBE” and while your body is incapacitated, you just leave the vicinity of your body and go to a designated room where you can read a brief note than can be easily memorized. Then you go back inside your body, wake up and tell what’s written. Simple. .

And where did I announce I could do it at will?

Even if I can bring myself to consciously do it, you expect me to say so ?

You have declared it's a mental phenomenon caused by the brain, meaning you now agree to the reality of the experience.

So what proof you are still looking for?

Look for some neuroscientist to simulate your brain ,and you will have what you want.


Or better still , look for tips online that can help you to have the experience directly.

Everything must not be proven to you. There are certain things you need to prove to yourself.

This one is one of those. If you are not trolling you will proceed immediately to do what I have asked you to do, and get your proof.

Good luck




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What you call “Tentative language” is the language of scientific study and how results are presented. .

I know .

Scientific truths are provisional truths they can change as more observations are made., but because that study is not conclusive and not valid enough, I say so.

There are no corroboratory studies yet for further confirmation , and besides you didn't share any link to any reputable peer review journal where it has been published. You got it from a blog.



I'm not a sheeepie follower of science who just swallow everything that has the tag of science on it.

We are talking about the real human being here, and not anything external to it. I don't want to accept things that are not true to determine what I'm . How I perceive myself as a human being goes a long way in influencing what I do and say.


You are free to choose what you want to accept about yourself. I have not forced you or anyone else to accept what I want to accept

Accept your own and work with that.


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You have nothing other than your wild and nonsensical claims. You allude to science and rely on obscurantism to try to hide the fact that your claims are nothing but old wives tale..

Your assessment of me here is a product of your running away imagination.

Show me just one instance in support of your accusation .

I have been referencing science for two major reasons
One ,to show that I'm keeping up with the latest in the sciences so people like you don't force nonsense on me not supported by science.

All of the study report you have brought right from the Mind and Matter thread to this one ,are either not conclusive or valid enough to support your claims..


Two, to show that I'm willing to consider other explanation , outside what I have learnt elsewhere and what my personal experience tells me.

What I have discussed are things currently
being investigated in the sciences. So where are the wild claims. You have even accepted it's a mental phenomenon caused by the brain

So what are you saying?


I have not made any Godi or paranormal claims and then insist it's scientifically proven..

Please next time ,make sure you edit your thoughts very well before hitting the submit button



I don't hold on strongly to anything. I'm viewing things from all sides to get the complete picture. I think that's the proper to go about it.

You cannot know the truth about anything ,without its opposite

You are viewing things from a singular position are not willing to look at it from anywhere else.

So how do you judge correctly.?




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Mental phenomena is a function of the body ( brain, stomach, lungs, nervous system etc ) and that’s why your claims about OBE are dead on arrival. .

Not when it concerns a real OBE that includes a veridical perception of something from outside the physical body, or especially the unique type, NDE, with its consistent theme of moving along a tunnel to meet with a brilliant white light that envelopes the experiencer, and having a life review from childhood ; The same tunnel, the same light and life review



No two persons can have the same subjective experience because they are personal experiences created by the individual's own mind/brain, but millions of people, the religious and irreligious, atheist included, from different parts of the world have reported the same thing I described above during NDE. Although not everyone remembers their experiences due to biological and psychological reasons, those who remember report those I listed above

Its important to note that this kind of experience is not reported during any other kind of OBE. This is something you should really think about and ask yourself why only that time and not any other time


Why the consistent theme for evrryone ,which is not supposed to be if the brain is actually creating it. ?

This is what I refer to as not wholly subjective experience the other time, but was misunderstood..

. I'm not the only person who have used that expression to describe this unique NDE experience. The human language is sometimes not enough to describe certain things so one needs to employ some creativity.



And another thing,,if the human brain is solely responsible for the individual's personal experiences , then how come some people become conscious during lucid dreams and know they are in a dream and then starts to control the events in it as if in the waking state,choosimg where they want to go to or what they want to see.

How is the brain involved in this kind of experience. Tell me?
If the brain is creating and controlling it as you say, how do you think it will still be possible for the experiencer to still be in comtrol at the same time.?

Who knows, maybe in your waking state it's still the brain that's creating the things you see around you . Abi?
In normal dreams, one is just a passive participant of events going on, and because of that it's easy to conclude the brain creates everything that we observed, but for lucid dreams where one's realises they are dreaming, one can no longer say it's the brain.


I have asked you about lucid dreams once or twice before in another thread, but you failed to respond. You kept silent


Make sure you don't avoid it this time ,or I will take it you just want to troll and not interested in any sincere conversation.

Read this about lucid dreams and let me get your explanation together with the question I ask

https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sleep/how-to-lucid-dream#how-to-lucid-dream

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Present a mental phenomena without a body, then we can take your claims to be possibly true.

I'm not discussing mental phenomenon. The focus is on a real OBE whose cause is not fully known.

OBE that comes with a verdical perception cannot be classified as mental phenomenon because what is seen during that time can be confirmed to exist after the experiencer fully gets back to the body. The mind cannot create objective reality.




During certain types of OBE. consciousness has only expanded beyond the Physical shell to have an experience outside of it. And snce it has not departed fully from the body, or about to like in NDE, the brain will surely respond massively to what is happening .

The activity going on within the brain in response to what is happening when consciousness is focused outside the body is what is being interpreted as cause. whereas they are simply effects .

Main stream scientists, for the most part, are dealing with effects when it comes to OBE, and calling it cause.

Correlation is not causation.

You really have a lot of work to do to discuss this.
Do some further research both offline and online if you really want to know the truth..

I won't bother myself to explain in detail what you should already know about the things you are discussing.

I see you don't know many things hence rhe lomg explanations . I won't do this again.

Even the science you depend on you don't know much, but only relying on old information you have and things you pick here and there.

You are not prepared at all to discuss anything, .

KnownUnknown:
What’s there to question?
Whatever experience they have is from the same system that causes dreaming.
What “mind theory” has to be questioned?
What’s “mainstream science”?



What “certain hypothesis”?
What sciences?




What scientific support?
What type of scientific support is required for “those experiences”?



Which one is it?
It is capable of having scientific support or it cannot be explained.



Which branch of science is investigating precognitive dreams or “starting to investigate”?
How are these investigations conducted?



What is an “acceptable truth”?
What “sciences”?
Also, no one is arguing that people do not experience OBEs. The ridiculous claim that is rejected is that the person is actually “out of body”. The claim is as ridiculous as those who claim dreams occur in some “plane” or “realm” or “dimension” instead of the mind, which is an attribute of the body(person).



No one is arguing that people experience OBEs but you won’t provide scientific proof of what you are insinuating because they are none.

Good
I will come to respond to the above much later . Maybe not today . I'm going out right now .

Just one thing until then , there's no scientific evidence anywhere that the brain is the cause of OBE.. The brain is involved but not as you think . I will explain in detail later .

If you can find scientific evidence in support of your claims about the brain causing it ,,please bring it and make sure it's peer-reviewed .

That's the only thing that is acceptable as scientific evidence in the sciences and not speculative theories , just like the one you posted in this thread which I ignored .


That study lacks ecological validity . An observation was never made of the brain of anyone having a real OBE to know if it's the same area as the one's they try to trigger . A simulation of something can never be the same as the original .I hope you know that ?

Morever ,the report from the study was written in tentative language , "it appears that ",it seems that" etc That one is no where near scientific evidence ,but you and your friend were running away with it as if you found something when it was nothing .

budaatum:
You mean, like you saw in the spirit world the receipts he gave me and my bank account showing I paid him for protection from you?

Now, if only you could bring this your evidence into the real concrete world for everyone to see, but of course you rely on people believing "dem triple says".

Good thing is you've found believers here, so please do keep selling your stuff.

You don't know what is scientific evidence . Stop talking about that one .

You have been trying to take my responses to Lordreed out of the context in which they were made for a reason only known to you . .

The things I listed and explained for him were to counter the claim that consciousness or mind has emerged from matter .

I have been insisting that If people are actually having those experiences I mentioned ,yes they are , ,then it would only mean one thing , current mind theory in main stream science needs to be reviewed or questioned .

We know that anything that cannot be questioned is not science but dogma,..

I'm questioning certain hypothesis in the sciences using what so many people know and have experienced(myself included even a lot of scientist too) and not trying to prove anything .


What is wrong with that that you want to burn me at the stake for ?




And no time did I even try to prove anything scientifically .Infact I said that they don't yet find full scientific support ,but still truth since it has been documented that people have those expereinces .

And I'm also not saying because it cannot be explained ,then it's evidence of this or that .

So what do you want from me if you really understand anything or paying attention to the conversation I was having with him ?

I should provide scientific evidence for the truth that people continue everyday to have precognitive dreams or OBEs ,that scientist are now startting to investigate ?

You are still living in the past when scientist believed that no one ever experienced a real OBEs or precognition of something . These experiences, unlike in the past , are acceptable truths in the sciiences even though not yet scientifically explained .

I'm focus on the truth that people have these experiences to support my arguments ,and not trying to provide scientific proof for them .


Please give Lordreed the space to respond as he already promised me in the other thread

But in the meantime deal with the mess you created for your self and stop deflecting .

Modified . Amorc teach about the soul, dreams of preognition ,astral or soul travel (OBEs) and even reincarnation . Why don't you seek for evidence from your group instead coming to me .

See what I mean ? You have some agenda you are pursuing

Ok

budaatum:
And you've seen the receipts he gave me.and my bank account showing I paid for protection from you?

Demand for it from Spenser in the spirit realm .That's where your cult says he now resides amongs the other members of the great white brother hood scammers

Or go print your bank statement. You will find it there .
Credit card billing things .


https://www.nairaland.com/2188187/what-benefits-being-member-amorc/9

vooks:
Read a brief history of this scam from here

A SPOILER


What I find funny? The same who chide Negroes for taking to oyinbo religion have no qualms belonging to this Caucasian scam


Cc plaetton

Very unfortunate for a black man to belong a cult whose founder promoted the Aryan race superiority nonsense

Amorc is racist cult .

Any blackman who is a member needs his head examined .

No black man will ever head AMORC

End.
You mock theist for not using their senses but just look at what you are subscribed to ?
SMH
Stop sending your money to the cult . Nothing will happen to you . Fear fear

Great white scam .just like MMM

Your mumu never do ?

Continue

budaatum:
buda does not believe in spirits and magic nor in gods or angels or heaven or hell etc, triple, since they are all figments of the imagination and lack any evidence of actual existence like your false claims.

And yet you continue to pay money for protection from the late con-man harvey Spenser ?
Your cult has brainwashed you his spirit is part of the Invisible great white brotherhood protecting you as long as you keep up with your membership dues.

Since I started mentioning these invisible beings you belief in ,not for once have you said anything about them .

I know why .
Your cult has threatened you as they usually do .

Or it's possible you have scientific proof that they are real .

Modified . I have not made any false claims .
Dreams of precognition and OBEs are natural phenomena that people have experienced and will continue to experienced .

I have not said they are scientific proven or explained . It's you that wants to put words in my mouth.

Scientific proven truths are a more detailed explanation of phenomenon in nature .That's the actual meaning which scientific illiterates like you fail to understand .

Natural phenomenon are not the figment of imagination of anyone .

Main stream scientists no longer deny OBEs,and the others I mentioned ,but say no explanation yet .

And they have been carrying out
different studies to try to understand what's happening .

This is why each time I discuss thiose here I always try to presents what is being done in the sciences to show I'm not looking at it from a singular perspective . I also don't discuss them by tying it with any trappings of spirituality , like hell ,heaven or God .

This is unlike your Amorc egregore which no scientist will ever discuss since they know it's the figment of the imagination of the con - man Havey Spenser .

Can you refer me to scientific journals where your Invisible white brotherhood has been discussed as a natural phenomenon ?

Just one please .

budaatum:
Don't you have better things to do with your own time triple, than come here and peddle lies?

Don't should! Ignore buda if you are capable. Though watch me use the Amorc mystical superpowers you claim I have to make you fail.

You will eat your eyes with it like the wizard that you are and end with tears .

budaatum:
Don't you have better things to do with your own time triple, than come here and peddle lies?

Don't should! Ignore buda if you are capable. Though watch me use the Amorc mystical superpowers you claim I have to make you fail.

I'm responding to your craziness . That's all.

You are an hypocrite.

An atheist by day ,a theist by night .

budaatum:
I guess I don't want to run hard enough. Just watch me remain here long after you run.

You want to run from discussing the evidence of your hypocritical behaviour .

An atheist by day ,a theist and sorcerer by night .

Atheist don't believe in spirits and magic ,but you do .

Are you not confused then ?

Focus on this and defend yourself and stop the deflections into what is not relevant now

budaatum:
You are here to watch triple. My bad.

Don't you have better things to do with your time ?

At your age just look at the kind of negative pastime you are engaged in.

You should be ignored now .

Good day

budaatum:
Are you admitting that all the "evidence" you've provided for your claims is all bullshit then? It would make sense when you do.

You ask this because you have been strugglimg to understand what a disclaimer is and what is scientific evidence .

I won't continue to repeat myself

It's about time you concerned yourself in finding evidence for your Amorc woo woo that has infected your mind.

budaatum:
Scientific evidence actually can be created lies, since truth is not created.

This thread is an example of you using your own ignorance to peddle your created lies. Or do you claim to know buda so well that you know where buda's money is spent?

Oh, I forget. Please do not disclose the bank statement that buda sent you please.

Yoir desparation to have the last word is really working against you .
Just look out how you have misinterpreted my comments .

You are known for this and already trying to do it to another .

Dont forget . I called you out for your hypocrsy and not this . You want to run .

budaatum:
That's why we wouldn't take the claim of such people as evidence and definitely not scientific evidence, triple, and would instead put them to sleep and monitor their brain activity for evidence of dreaming or not.

You are really confused .where did I say it is scientific evidence ?

Inspite of all the disclaimers I have issued on this ,you still come up with the above nonsense . Who are you to take it or not ?

Just rest old man

Go and look for evidence for your Amorc woo woo and stop pestering me

budaatum:
And I am asking you to practise the same here instead of making claims you have no evidence whatsoever for! Or is it that you need a lab?

Scientific evidence are not created truths.

Scientist only provide a more detailed explanntion for truths which already exist in nature so we understahd it better .

And anyone can stumble on this truths before it's explained in the sciences .

Where else do you think scientist collects data for their investigation ?

Before the law of gravity was propounded people where already having an experience with it .

You don't know science . Stop talking about it.

budaatum:
Pity you would not read Plato for fear it's a cult, for Gorgias would have done you well.

Scientific evidence is evidence that is based on facts that are verifiable, triple. It's like if I say triple is 2 years old, the scientific evidence to prove it would be a 2 year old birth certificate that belongs to triple and that was issued when triple was born 2 years ago and evidence that triple is actually the triple who was born 2 years ago and other scientific test to check triple has not fiddled triple's age, like checking triple lived every day triple lived to see if triple exceeds 2 years old or not.

We shall also check to see if triple is any other age, for we must not just gather evidence to prove a point but also consider evidence that falsifies or disproves it.

How do you know what I have read or not read ?
Plato ?

You are just being stupid if you think I have not .

And please stop taking about science. You know nothing .

You like overreaching yourself .

budaatum:
And I am asking you to practise the same here instead of making claims you have no evidence whatsoever for! Or is it that you need a lab?

Go ask yourself

budaatum:
No triple, it does not mean you didn't dream. It does however mean that what you dreamt about did not really happen except in your dream.

Other people also dream but most don't remember and sometimes claim they don't dream at all .

That is my point

We are not on the same page on this . So quit already

budaatum:
And I am asking you to practise the same here instead of making claims you have no evidence whatsoever for! Or is it that you need a lab?

And who are you to ask anything of me ?

Did you skip your meds this morning

When are you going to ask yourself about your stupid payment of dollars to Amorc for protection from spirits .?

You want to deflect . I called you out for your hypocrisy . Don't run away from that .

I'm free to post anything on this board and elsewhere.

And besides I have not forced or threatened you to accept what I post .I even issued a disclaimer .

So why is it giving you headache ?

Or you don't know the meaning of a disclaimer or what it's used for ?

I know you are looking for something . My advice is that you go get it elsewhere ,if not you will waste your time and bitterly regret it in the end

budaatum:
Isn't this what we repeatedly tried to explain to you in the NDE/OBE thread, where you insisted your human senses were not tricked?

Guess you can't see how your human senses are so unreliable that they are easily tricked in this thread too.

Lol.
You know nothing .

If I have a dream last night and cannot present the evidence ,it means I didn't dream ?

You are confused about something here and I wouldnt waste my time to tell you what it is .

And just look at you now accepting your senses can be tricked because you want to score cheap points .

Old man rest

Read what makes something scientific evidence amomgs trained scientists ,not Amorc scientishttps://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/scientific-evidence-what-is-it-and-how-can-we-trust-it-14716t like buda

budaatum:
Evidence always means scientific evidence, triple, wherever I use it. It means you use your senses properly and record objective data that others can examine for themselves without your subjectivity getting in the way like you've allowed it to in this thread for instance.

You don't know the difference .

Scientific evidence are always published in peer review journals .

Meet with a real scientist ,not Amorc scientist to educate you .

You are not trained to provide scientific evidence that can be published in peer review journals .. You don't have what it takes .

So stop deceiving yourself . You are scientific illiterate .
Modified.
Scientific evidence are not arrived at by using your senses only

The human senses is not a reliable tool for knowing truth . It can easily be tricked .

Our primitive forbears relief on their senses alone and concluded the sun can stand still .

You are not different from them and it's the reason Amorc has captured your mind with its deception .

No reasoable person should remain in Amorc and be paying dollars for protection from non existing great white brotherhood in the spirit .

And to think that the con-,man Harvey Spenser is part of this group(that's what members are told ) makes it even worse .

Imagine such a person as your God .

And someone here says he can use his brain to think

budaatum:
You've been on your tirade ever since I asked you to provide simple evidence for your ridiculous claim but couldn't, so I wonder who has completely lost it between the two of us.

The below sums you up nicely. Rather than use your senses to critically analyse what you observe, you prefer your own lazy narative

Triple join the cult of buda so we can help you find what you lost or likely never had. You might even learn to use the brain in your head.

You have changed to evidence , no more scientific evidence that you ignorantly demanded from me.

You should be thanking me for teaching you the difference .

Amorc teachings are chicken sop.

They cannot be of help for anyone one seeking true enlightenmemt .

I have tasted better . So keep you stuff to yourself

budaatum:
You've been on your tirade ever since I asked you to provide simple evidence for your ridiculous claim but couldn't, so I wonder who has completely lost it between the two of us.

The below sums you up nicely. Rather than use your senses to critically analyse what you observe, you prefer your own lazy narative

Triple join the cult of buda so we can help you find what you lost or likely never had. You might even learn to use the brain in your head.

You are trapped and don't even know it .

Where are the threads you created to discuss Amorc beliefs ?

That's what I ask for and not an obscure thread where you tried to defend Amorc .

Anybody can do that .

Their have been severall instances on this board where outsiders would defend a religion or esoteric group they are not part of .

Provide a thread of your own where you
extensively discussed Amorc teachings such as reincarnation ,the soul , the great white brotherhood , spirits beings etc

Close to 400 topics yet only less than 1% or nothing on your Amorc woo woo .

You are a gullible theist . That's all

budaatum:
Can you imagine! Even buda is not defending buda.

You just want to defend the indefensible and don't care how it turns .. That's all.

You have lost the plot completely .

budaatum:
Triple, buda needs your brain and mind, so I beg you please to join buda's cult and not Amorc please, since Amorc money is not buda's money.

You need help .

Look for it very fast

This is what I said you deleted .

And you know it

budaatum:
The only "other" who reads your drivel is your fellow driveller.

It's still better than your pathetic condition .

You have been abandoned by your friends who usually come to defend you .

Nobody is willing to stick is head out to defend a disgrace