₦airaland Forum

ZKOSOSO:
Hmmmmm OP, u dey find trouble o!
Very soon dem go descend on u with very lengthy sermon on the mount!!!!

So long that na u go taya....

I didnt write it myself, it is in the hadith. The issue is that how can a prophet of allahh advise someone to marry a virgin? Is it that non-virgin should not be married? I need muslims who follow the sunnah of the islamic prophet to educate me on this.

allahh's apostle is full of intrigues and quiet interesting to make a friend with, especially if you are a man that have a great appetite for women. It is worthy of note that allahh's apostle's first wife (Khadija) was 40 years when he (at 25) married her. The tendency that a 40 year old women will be found a virgin is very low hence we cannot say with certainty that mohammed's first wife was a virgin. So what could have gone wrong, a man who married a woman of 40 now desired a virgin? Could it be that as some men's political and financial status changes, so also their taste and choice of women? I need a psychologist to assist here.

Though mohammed married some women after the death of khadija, but non of them could be comfirmed young or virgin, except aisha, because most of them are widow. However the following hadith baffles me when a supposed prophet of allahh asked someone to marry a virgin for a sweeter sexual experience:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others. The Prophet passed by me and asked, "Who is this?" I replied, "Jabir bin 'Abdullah." He asked, "What is the matter, (why are you late)?" I replied, "I am riding a slow camel." He asked, "Do you have a stick?" I replied in the affirmative. He said, "Give it to me." When I gave it to him, he beat the camel and rebuked it. Then that camel surpassed the others thenceforth. The Prophet said, "Sell it to me." I replied, "It is (a gift) for you, O Allah's Apostle." He said, "Sell it to me. I have bought it for four Dinars (gold pieces) and you can keep on riding it till Medina." When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I Sad, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to handle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." When we reached Medina, Allah's Apostle said, "O Bilal, pay him (the price of the camel) and give him extra money." Bilal gave me four Dinars and one Qirat extra. (A sub-narrator said): Jabir added, "The extra Qirat of Allah's Apostle never parted from me." The Qirat was always in Jabir bin 'Abdullah's purse. Sahih Bukhari 3:38:504


Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region. Sahih Bukhari 7:62:16


Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for handling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Bukhari 7:62:17

Could the above hadith be a justification why muslim men of 50 and 60 would rather go for a virgin, in obedience to the prophet of allahh, instead of mature women? Why is the prophet of allahh so obsessed with virgins? Why couldnt the prophet take his mind of sex and women?

I dont want muslims to tell me that 'these hadiths are weak or\and fabricated' because they are still in islamic libraries as we speak.

I watched an animated history of the battle of karballa where mohammed's grandson, Hussein, was beheaded by fellow muslims loyal to ayeesha, the islamic prophet child bride, and come to the conclusion that islam is purely of the devil.

No offense intended, just my personal opinion.

Henry22:
so u mean after MOHA finished defrouding his followers(terrorists) he went and heed himself in the house of a prostitute and then lied to his follower (the terrorists) that he has gone to al'jana?

Yes, the story is not in the bible but in an islamic material on the sunnah of the islamic prophet by ibn ishaq, the pages 183 and 184 of the book. Ibn ishaq, just like ibn kathir, is also a great and reliable collector of the sunnah of the islamic prophet. You can verify this story by yourselve.

Muslims will be quick to deny sahih bukhari (the most reliable hadith collections) anytime he says a bitter truth about the islamic prophet.

Henry22:
OP i would have believed you if you have said "mohammed's journey to hell" cos a TERRORIST has no place in heven.

I dont believe any of mohammed's story or 'revelations', I only quoted an islamic source, that is over 1200 years, where mohammed claimed to have been taken to heaven but was later discovered to be in Umm Hani's house.

I am not ibn Ishaq who narrated the hadith.

ikbnice:
what's islam sef?

A religion of piece.

Ibn Ishaq, page 183 and 184, Umm Hani (who later became mohammed's wife) said and I quote: 'The apostle went on no night journey.... He slept that night in my house.

The genesis of this statement, by Umm Hani, was when mohammed's followers came to kabba to check on him (in the morning) but could not find him, they inquired of mohammed where he was. Instead of the apostle of allahh to tell them that he was in Umm Hani's house (a night earlier), he told them that the angel of allahh took him on a nite journey to heaven. Most of his follower found this story absurd and left islam because they believed that the apostle of allahh deceived them. That he spent a night in the house of a woman friend and lied to them that an angel of allahh took him to heaven.

The issue is this, how can someone who called himself an apostle of allahh be lying to his followers? Who are we to believe, mohammed or Umm Hani? If mohammed cannot be trusted in such a little matter, how can the alleged 'revelations' he claimed to receive from allahh (which formed the current quran) be reliable and credible?

I dont want muslims to tell me that ibn ishaq, ibn kathir, sahih bukhari or sahih muslims are not reliable (especially when they exposed the negetive and dirty sides of mohammed).

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism (or islam) lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”

Sir Winston Churchill (former British prime minster)

What Winston Churchill said about Islam:

''Islam is an dangerous in a man as rabies is dangerous in dogs.''

''while the hindu man elaborated his argument, the muslim man sharpened his sword''

''An appeaser is a man who feeds a crododile, hoping that it will eat him last''

MrOlai:
Lies!

There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Japan with over 10% being native Japanese. There are several Islamic Organizations in Japan propagating Islam there. Islam is a global Religion. These are some of the famous mosques in Japan:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mosques_in_Japan

Japanese muslims are officially less than 0.001% (given the error level to be less than 0.1). Can you provide Japan' official\govt website than put the japanese muslims to be 10%. You are a great LIAR for quoting a possible muslim propaganda website written by an anonymous muslim.

The population of Japan is currently 160 million and most of them are atheist, shintos, bhudist and a very small christian population. Islam is almost non-existence in Japan.

Please get your facts right.

HaneefahRN:
It was very nice discussing with u. I'm ending my discussion with u by saying Allahu Alam (Allah knows best). It is obvious u are good at research, make researches with unbiase and keen mind (difficult I know), abt all these claims not only the Muslim critic scholars but also the well-known reliable Islamic Scholars. I won't waste my time going back and forth with u. My submissions av been made on all the issues u discussed above. If u really want to know more make researches. The killing of sorcerers has no justification in the Quran nor hadith although it is haram. And When seeking hadiths note the authenticity and strength. Make ur own deductions and blive what u want. All the best.
And Allah knows best.

Thanks man, God bless you. We are one family as human beings. Cheers!

madjnr:
you're a liar.. I can list you many who raped three year olds... you're hypercritical

Mention one person in the bible who sleep with a girl of nine (or lower). Just one person, from the bible.

madjnr:
please tell me the age of consent according to your bible?

I am not aware of the age of consent in the bible, i will check and revert. But i have never come accross any human being in the bible (or even in the secular world) who married a girl of 6 and started having sexual contact with her when she became 9 (just as mohammed did).

HaneefahRN:
I'll answer u as I deem fit, starting from ur last paragraph, I never used Christian doctries to validate anything cos it seems u're always on the defensive abt that. It wldn't even make sense since it's 2 different religions. I only used it to bring up a reason one or more of these hadiths cld av been fabricated wt made up chains in the 3rd generation since many of the early hadith scholars seemed to be unaware of these penalties. Or it cld be due to hypocrisy practised by some apostates during the time of the Prophet, in wc some Jews pretended to join Islam and be Muslims, then spread falsehood abt Islam, or leave the religion in such a way to shake the faith of new converts. Even at that no solid evidence can be given for killing for mere apostasy. There is a Sahih hadith abt a bedouin that apostated and had nothing done to him. And a man who the Prophet had invited to Islam, and he said he disliked, the prophet replied 'Even if ye dislike it'. He didn't coerce him to join Islam. I don't know abt the killing of witches in Saudi u claim.
I know well abt the abrogations, bt the verse regarding 'no compulsion in religion' was never abrogated and contratry to ur claims were revealed in Medina where Muslims had a strong hold and supported with many similar verses of the Quran. The verses regarding killing, were revealed during war, when the Muslims were at war wt the pagans who were opperessing them or who initiated war against them. Many other verses were revealed pertaining to apostasy in the Quran (refer to former posts) and in all no mention of a death penalty was mentioned, there were even verses e.g. Q4:137, where Allah talked abt those tht blive then disblive and blive then dislike again and grow stubborn in denial of truth, that He will not forgive nor guide them.
Surely, if there were a death penalty prescribed for apostasy by the Quran, the person wld av been killed the 1st time and wldn't even av a 2nd chance.
I wldn't know why the scholars agreed wt an hadith that doesn't tally wt the verses of the Quran and from just a single isnad and av weaknesses for such a grave penalty, Walahu Alam.
Notable scholars that do not support the death penalty and compulsion in religion are Maliki jurist Abul- Walid Al-Baji, Hanbali Jurist Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Qayyim, Shalbut, Tantawi. Who agreed death penalty is unwarranted unless the apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community.
I av made my submission, u can chose to blive what u want. Whether for or against. I only answer u cos I want to and u seem level-headed and mature in relation, not cos I av or need to proof anything to u.
Walahu Alam (And Allah knows best)

Quran 9:29, Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (christiams and jews) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

The above instruction was never a defensive but an offensive war\fight againt against the christians and Jews who didnt accept allahh as god and mohammed as his messenger. Compare it with 'there is no compulsion in religion' mantra (quran 2:256), there is a clear contradiction, the latter verse was abrogated for the former. Quran chapter 9 was completely revealed in medina and abrogated the peaceful mecca diplomatic verses (when islam was weak).
Although the quran didnt specifically asked muslims to kill apostates, just as the quran did not ask muslims to pray 5 times a day, the hadith (which forms 90% of islamic laws and which act as interpreter for the quran) recommended death for apostates. The scholars who are opposed to death for apostates are in the minority and irrelevant in islamic authority and most are secular muslims who do not hold a conservative view of certain islam doctrines. Some of them grew up in the west, hence the change in orientations about life.

All the 5 schools of islamic jurispundence cant be wrong on this matter, unless you are tacitly telling me that islam is false.

Saudi still kill sorcerers till date, see links below:
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18503550
www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/29/indonesia-workers-in-saudi-arabia-are-on-trial-for-witchcraft-some-facing-the-death-penalty.html
www.newsweek.com/beheadings-saudi-arabia-quickens-pace-321587
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-has-beheaded-its-110th-prisoner-this-year-10439019.html

These are the few reports that make international headlines, most of the beheading of sorcerers are done secretly. So dont judge the catholics church for killing witches some hundreds of years ago while saudi arabia is still doing the same till now.

HaneefahRN:
I never said u quoted their works, but u made mention that Muslims depend a lot on their works.
U av to know that to consider an hadith authentic, the chain of narrators must be strong.
Although these hadiths seemingly seem strong due to the credibility of Sahih Bukhari bt they actually aren't due to faults in their chains of transmission.
First and most important the Quran has no backing for killing apostates and made it clear there is no compulsion in religion.
It is also shown that the authentic words of the prophet prescribes no punishment for apostasy, 'refer to former post'. The hadiths wt prescribed punishment are queried.
Weak links are:
- If the prophet had wanted to give a law concerning apostasy prescribing such serious punishment as death he wld av made it known to a large no of companions and pple who wld then pass it to successors. These hadiths wld av been widely reported by many companions not just one.
- Most of the early Muslim scholars seem to be unaware of the penalty. Notable are Ibrahim Al-Nakha'i (a teacher to imam Abu-Hanifah) and also Sufyan Al-Thawri who ruled that apostates shld be invited into Islam as long as they repent. These were leading hadith experts and wld av followed the penalty if it had been prescribed
- These hadiths aren't as strong as an hadith prescribing death shld. Considering the chain of transmission. The hadith is narrated only by Ayyub Al-Sakhitiyani in 3rd generation, only Ikrimah in 2nd generation and Ibn Abbas in 1st generation. In addition there are some of these narrations wt no companion in the isnad. This means only few pple narrated in the 2nd and 3rd generation, and only one wt Ibn Abass is quoted.
Worthy of note is Ibn Abass was just a boy of 13yrs at the death of the Prophet, so it's inconceivable tht the Prophet will give a law prescribing death to only a 13yrs old to transmit.
- the reliability of Ikrimah is questioned and has been seen as not trustworthy by notable hadith scholars. He was known to attribute false traditions to Ibn Abass. Notable hadith collectors like Muslim and Malik disliked mentioning him as a narrator unless supported by more trustworthy narrators to strengthen the chain. And this is why none of these hadiths can be found in Muslim. He was known to be a khawarij, who blive and practised killing Muslims considered apostates and opponents of Ali. He was reported to av once said 'he wished he had a spear to kill all that had come for hajj this yr'
'They are all apostates'
- Many of the narrations av several differences from each other
The narrations I-III abt burning
I- we are not told whether Ali came to know Ibn Abass rejection.
II-Woe to Ibn Abass or some said 'Woe to Ibn Abass mother'
III- Ibn Abass said the truth
The word used to describe the pple 'burnt'
I- zanadiqah- atheists
II- apostate
III- pple who worshipped idols
We can see the hadith suffered changes and can't be trusted enof to base a law on.
- The hadith requires us to know Ali (a companion who had been wt d prophet for abt 23yrs) did nt knw d prophet's prohibition abt burning pple or ignored it, while Ibn Abass who only spent 3 yrs (10-13yrs) knew abt it. Even if this had supposedly happened the other companions wld av called Ali to order, and certainly such acts wld av been widely known by a lot of pple then and passed on to successors. But apart from this report, no other person reported such, and it was never seen in any book of Islamic history.
- 'Whoever changed his religion, kill him' appears rather careless in it's formulation and wasn't clarified nor elaborated in other hadiths. Usually laws were given in context and difficult to blive it came from the prophet
- These hadiths are mostly related to 3rd generation narrators like Ayyub, Qatadah, Zayh bn Aslam.
Zayd didn't give any source for the hadith while Qatadah narrated from a) Al-Hasanb) Al-Anas
This is however unlikely since they av a large no of studts bt only Qatadah narrated it, wc makes d isnad doubtful.
Conclusion- there is no basis for killing apostates in the Quran and the Prophet never killed any apostate. The hadiths claiming the penalty av weakness in their chains bt were gradually widely accepted by the 3rd generation was the appealing nature of loyalty to one's grp wc was founded in cultures and traditions then, the Jewish tradition for death to apostates,the Romans and later Christians who killed heretics and witches.

Even if I dont agree with you completely I am impressed by your mature response. You quoted that the apostle of allahh said 'there is no compulsion in religion' so as to nullify the hadiths on killing of apostates but failed (or pretended) to accept the fact the these verse was revealed in mecca (when\where islam was weak and peaceful and was under persecution from meccan pagans). If you study the concept of abrogation of verses in the quran you will understand what i am talking about here.

While quran said 'there should be no compulsion in religion' (while mohammed was persecuted in mecca), he asked muslims to fight non-muslims in quran 9:29 (while he was strong in medina). Can you see any contradiction? Which revelation came last, the peaceful or the violent one? The violent one came last and abrogated peaceful one.

So you will see there is dynamics in islamic theology which mohammed companions understood perfectly and were recorded in the hadiths. All the four sunni schools and one shia school of jurispundence unanimously agreed that apostates should be killed. Are you saying that you understand hadith narrations and interpretations than the saudis and the iranians? We dont need to be too scholarly about it when the cradle of islam (saudi arabia and iran) had already put in practice their religious theology. You may not like the practice that does not mean you should deny, it is in your religious theology.

On killing of witches by the papal church in the middle ages, that is true, it is no longer practices by any church but the saudis are still beheading some alledged witches and sorcerers as i am typing now. So dont bring up past church doctrines to validate current islamic barbarism.

daretodiffer:
Will you please die

You can take some pills

You can jump off the balcony

Please die

I wont die but live to an old age. I thought you said you are out, why are you still responding? If you cant bear the truth concerning your religion (that is islam) then dont come to nairaland religion section because we will keep exposing the lies and evils of islam, using islamic sources and materials.

daretodiffer:
Idi.it. Where was it mentioned that Bukhari is 100% reliable? If you took time to gather the Hadiths, did you also take your time to examine their reliability?

Oh wait! You don't care. Once it is an Hadith, it is an Hadith. You know more than we do, dunt you. It is futile aguing with a nincompoop who has taken a stand.

I am out!

On the issue of the ha-deaths, muslims should throw them into the dust-bin for exposing many evils and stupidities in islam since many muslims, especially nigerian muslims, are now denying the ha-deaths. If muslims say an ha-death is not reliable, or weak, why are they still in islamic book-stores and libraries, only to deny them whenever some evil contents are exposed by non-muslims. Is this not deceptions and hypocrisy and lies?

If ha-deaths, which provide guidelines for over 90% of islamic laws and practices, are so disjointed and unreliable, how reliable is islam as a religion? My sister think, pls you your brain and think. Dont keep your brain signal in saudi barbaria, use it where you are.

HaneefahRN:
I will overlook all d other stories in ur write up since I'av given my reply.
But I need to change a notion wc actually shows how ignorant u are of Islam. Ibn Ishaq and Al- Tabari, are know to be very unreliable, with narration of very weak and fabricated hadiths, and stories abt the Prophet. Muslims take the Sira of Ibn Ishaq wt a pinch of salt, since it is well known for falsehood and gathering narations with unreliable sources or even fabricated ones. The Muslim critics are always quick to pick up his and Tabaris work thinking they av points, but we don't take them serious.

I never quoted ibn ishaq or al-tabari, what I quoted is sahih bukhari concerning the mohammed sahabas who all concured to the fact that apostates should be killed, in lines with the instructions (or approval) of the islamic prophet. And of course saudi arabia, iran, pakistan understand this hadiths perfectly and are applying it, so I am not blanketly condemning anyone\group.

Can you please provide the list of 'authentic' hadiths we can quote so that we dont misunderstand islam\muslims any more?

vooks:
But Truth is constant, else if it changes across culture and time then it is worthless


Very true, but we are not comparing women but DOCTRINE. Do you think DOCTRINE should change with time?


You are an idiot. If whatever Mohammed did 1400 years ago is inapplicable today, is it possible that Islam invented 1400 years ago is outdated?

Aisha still had her dolls when she was married

Question is whether this is worthy emulating. Is it or was Mohammed primitive

What an slowpoke! So would you gladly marry a 6 year old if she 'consented' and there was no law against that?

She was very mature and that's why she had dolls when she was married.

God bless you bro, you reason like a normal human being.

madjnr:
lol you're a hypocrite, hope you know that? so now there is Jewish law ,universal law and whatnot? maybe in your own bible... but Jesus said
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18) " It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.

You are a potential terrorist for this post. Do you want christians to fall into the depraved level of muslims by start killing backsliders? Anyway arabs\muslims do not value life so I am not surprised.

malvisguy212:
yes , muhammed is a fake prophet, he teaches what he himself did not obey.

Mohammed in his own word said in Quran 2:222:

They will question thee concerning the monthly course. Say: 'It is hurt; so go apart from women during the monthly course, and do not approach them till they are clean. When they have cleansed themselves, then come unto them as God has commanded you.' Truly, God loves those who repent, and He loves those who cleanse themselves'.

But in hadith he did the complete opposite.
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to handle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad: (on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to handle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start handling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300).

This mohammed na serios guy man prophet. I gbadun him pattern nobe small. The woman wrapper enjoyed his life to be fullest. All hail emperor prophet Mo', the islamic perfect man.

malvisguy212:
trash!! Each nation were sent A prophet, explained why the Jews, a single nation were sent soo many prophet.

Are you saying that mohammed was a guy man and a fake prophet, just as Abu Jahl accused him in one of the numerous hadith narrations?

opey25:
All Muslims in living in KSA are aware that apostasy is punishable by death. Anyone that want to convert to other religions can quietly leave KSA and go elsewhere in order to avoid the punishment. Vatican City is regarded as a sovereign state,do you think anyone will be permitted to openly profess any other religion except christianity.

I hate the vatican and I am no loyal to them. As a matter of fact the quran was read in the vatican this year (and on a yearly basis) when saudi sheiks were invited to the vatican for inter-faith dialogue. Do you think a bible can be read in saudi arabia openly? Never. The catholics are the greatest enabler of islam because their way are almost the same, just that the catholics are currently more humane and civilized (they are birds of a feather)

Do you think the saudis can host the inter-faith dialogue? Never.

madjnr:
there isn't any cos you guys choose not to follow the bible wholeheartedly... you only select parts that suits you and follow...

Muslims follow the sunnah of the islamic prophet right, just as the christians follow the teachings of christ (as their lord and personal saviour). Can you show me anywhere Jesus asked people to kill\kill anyone who does not follow him or his teachings?

I am not denying the fact that in the old testament (the judaism part of the abrahamic faith), moses commanded that anyone, among the Jews, that follow pagan idols should be put to death. That law was made for the Jewish people, a distinct race and culture, and not a universal law (like what you have today in islam). The Jewish law of moses is not binding on non-Jews and there is no anytime in history that the Jew try to convert anyone to their religion. So dont use the draconian Jewish law, given over 3000 years ago (which they are no longer following) to justify the current evil and barbaric islamic apostasy law.

madjnr:
guyis it by force to live in Saudi Arabia? em force you to come and live there? what's your damage?

Yes it is not by force to live in saudi arabia but the saudis are the greatest evil force on earth (even before the US before the US is also an evil nation and a close friend to saudi arabia). This is because the saudis kill whoever abandom islam but are spending billions of dollars to convert other people to islam by building big mosques in europe and america but will not allow a single church or synagogue on saudi soil. Saudi arabia is also the largest sponsor of terrorism and wahabi islam (the pure islam of mohammed) worldwide.

madjnr:
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18) " It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.

Can you show me any nation on earth that currently make it a state law to kill whoever abandon christianity or judaism? Or can you tell me any nation on earth that follow judaism or christian theocrasy as a syetem of govt. I need only one please.

tartar9:
thou apostasy law is Islamic,no country can be used to bench-mark Islam.

Thanks man, I like your sincerity here that apostasy law is purely islamic, that is to say, it is islamically acceptable to kill whoever leaves islam, especially in muslim countries. Do you think it is ok for anyone to kill his fellow human being because he decided to reject (after being a muslim) allahh and god and mohammed as his messenger? Is religion\faith not meant to me a personal thing between a man and God?

tartar9:
thou apostasy law is Islamic,no country can be used to bench-mark Islam.

Thanks man, I like your sincerity here that apostasy law is purely islamic, that is to say, it is islamically acceptable to kill whoever leaves islam, especially in muslim countries. Do you think it is ok for anyone to kill his fellow human being because he decided to reject (after being a muslim) allahh and god and mohammed as his messenger?

opey25:
[img][/img]every country has its laws,in the US federal law treason is punishable by death.Thats why Edward Snowden is scared of going back to the US.Even in military laws worldwide a soldier that defects to the enemy side might be executed.So there is nothing strange if a country that practises sharia decides to execute an apostate.

Am I getting you here? Are you saying that anyone that leaves islam in saudi arabia will be (or is to be) treated as a treasonable offense? Let me get you clear.

daretodiffer:
Are you mad? Do I look like I will go back and forth with you? If you cannot go through my post then please find your way to hell.

Don't you think that you deserve a place on the stake when you knew all these yet have no either what Saudi Arabia is

Kool down sister, I dare to differ from you on certain issues. Whether you like it or not, apostasy law is an integral part of islamic law and jurispundence except if you are ignorant of islam. All conservative muslim countries apply apostasy law by killing whoever leaves islam, either officially or extra-judicial killing, the goal is the same (KILL APOSTATES AND CRITICS OF ISLAM) and the invoke the hadith and the sunnah for their actions.

You may not like it but it is part of islam and that what make islam the most brutal and dangerous religion on planet earth.

aob2882:
Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting that prophet like unto Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said "no". Then they asked him if he was Elias and he said "no". Then in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him "Art thou that Prophet?" and he answered "no" (John 1:19-21).

In the Gospel, according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the "Paraclete" or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things that the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth (whose meaning resemble Muhammad's famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however inconsistent with he profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible (Ed. J. Mackenzie) "Those items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely cohesive picture."

Indeed history tells us that may early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit, This might explain the following who responded to some one who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus , to be the awaited "Paraclete". It was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things that could not be borne at Jesus' time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He told of many things to come which "came to pass" in the minutest detail meeting, the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between true and false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22). He did reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement (John 16:8-11).

No long story, let Jesus and the bible speak on this.

Jesus said and I quoye: "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me" (John 5:46). The verse according, according to Jesus, said that Moses wrote about him.

John 1: 45, Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

daretodiffer:
You also have to stop using those countries as benchmarks. Saudi Arabia supports maltreatment of domestic workers wheareas in Islam it is forbidden to mistreat your employees
Pakistan is hardly an Islamic country but it is a country unite by the religion.

The first country any sane person will use to bench-mark islam is saudi arabia. Saudi arabia is the home to the islamic prophet, the home to the two islamic most sacred cities (mecca and medina), the place the islamic prophet was buried, the home to the famous prophet mosque, the home to muslims' most sacred shrine which muslims worldwide idolize (the kabba). Saudi arabia is one of the few countries that accept all the hadiths and the sunnah of the islamic prophet (without question) because they understand the history of islam and part and parcel of the islamic history. So who is more islamic than saudi arabia, is it Nigeria? Tell me the country we should use to bench-mark islam.

If saudi arabia make apostasy punishable by death they are following the hadith and the sunnah of the islamic prophet. Muslims living in saudi arabia, pakistan, iran, sudan, somalia etc, have no problem with killing apostates (in line with islamic laws) but muslims living in 'decent' countries find it embarrassing to their religion hence will cook up many lies in order to deny their apostasy law. Many muslims lives a duplicate life and beliefs and thats bad.

Lets see some hadith that justify the killing of apostates:

Sahih Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Sahih Bukhari, volume 9, #57 Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Sahih Bukhari, volume 9, #58 Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

These are very few hadiths that justified killing of apostates in islam. So if saudi arabia is evil and barbaric, that means islam is evil and equally barbaric because the saudi government rule by 100% sharia law and consevatively follow the trilogy the the quran, the hadith (especillay sahih bukhari and sahih muslim) and the sunnah (especially ones from ibn ishaq and al-tabari).

On a final note, can you provide any country to bench-mark islam since you claim that saudi arabia is not islamic enough to be used for bench-marking islamic beliefs?