₦airaland Forum

tkb417:
so OBJ is a pastor in RCCG?

Akingbola was sacked for financial recklessness by CBN so that is enough for the church to sack him too

and oh yeah, if the law enforcement agents trace some of the cash to the church, im sure the church would return the money
as it it, all donations given by Akingbola was from his personal pocket.

if otherwise, let the Police do their job and recover the excess

Hes rich enough to give all he gave to the church

Cool, so you concede Pastor Akingbola is a THIEF, and RCCG consider him a THIEF too thats why he was dismissed.

1. Does God accept the offerings of thieves?

2. Does it matter to God in receiving offerings which account either personal income or looted income of a thief or does God consider the personality of the Giver?

3. If God does not receive offerings from thieves, what is RCCG's justification for keeping same?

Lol. . . .these clerics sef. Who made them an authority to declare what allah wants or not?

tkb417:
ill assume u have sense

IBB = never prosecuted till date ( means hes not guilty of any offence)
OBJ - Never prosecuted till date ( not guilty of any offence yet)
Abacha - Never till he died. His son was prosecuted

Akingbola is being prosecuted ( not pronounced guilty yet by any Nigerian Court)

whats your point?

Akingbola is facing persecution both home and abroad; he was sent away from RCCG
so how is this the same thing with IBB and OBJ?

maybe im slow, whats the link between Akingbola and OBJ for instance?

Good, so according to you OBJ, Abacha and IBB are all ''innocent'' in the eyes of the law hence the church should waste no time receiving hefty financial donations from them and appointing them to pastorships?

Thanks for enlightening me.

BTW, why was akingbola ''sent away'' from RCCG? I thought he was ''innocent'' in the eyes of the church until proven guilty in court??

tkb417:
@Dayokanu
read nijakings post and re-read all deboksy said and stop making silly comments

are you not supposed to be enlightened?

if you make spurious comments and you noticed your flaw, stfu
thats makes you sensible

how you equate abachas loot to akingbolas ouster is a wonder

u need a spirtitual help

Sorry o, since you are ''enlightened'' could you tell us the difference between IBB, OBJ, Abacha and Akingbola's looting?

Whats with you people and your xenophobia?

If you dont want to see zimbabweans then move to your village.

A human being is a human being irrespective of race, colour or nationality .

[quote author=oyinda. link=topic=481794.msg6435111#msg6435111 date=1279861886]all offering is looted money in one way or d other. it's in d bible that money is d root of all evil.
even d money u collected through honest means at work. do u know how it got into your boss/company's hands? etc and on and on.
IMO, once it enters d offering coffers, it is blessed and restored.

on a sidenote: God forgive all ye blasphemers.[/quote]This is just ridiculous and sad.

Maybe you need to go back to your bible and see that offerings are a form of worship to God, god does not eat your money. Worship to be acceptable comes from a pure heart.

Read

4."But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,

5. but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.".
6.Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

7.But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it (Genesis 4:4-7).

Any pastor who tells you once your money goes into the coffers it becomes ''holy'', ''restored'' and ''acceptable'' is a liar and thief and is the real blasphemer you should be worried about.

^^
pls tell them, they'd rather attack me Tudor than confront the issue of thieving dogs like pastor Adeboye and his friend pastor Akingbola.

I stopped paying tithe and offerings since my teens and I'd rather die than give any pastor my money.

toba:
MY God which u said is a myth? U want me to show u bible passages from a mythical being?
Thats a good eg of God not revealing Anything sin or no sin no?

Er NO, The christian God is said not to tolerate sin. I have asked you to show me where specifically God did hide sin. Obviously you cant.

Almost four days and you're yet to provide anything tangible and till next week you cant because There is NONE. My job is done here.

Thanj you for your time.

does it mean u now believe he exist, since myself and Akingbola worship him?

Is this a sensible question?

Read with sense for u to decode whats being said

Sorry, even a thousand professors will not understand what was typed up there.

debosky:
I don't need to - the mere fact that the church is unable to determine whether or not the man is guilty of stealing from an institution under the auspices of the CBN (because it is not designed to do so) is sufficient. On the other hand, if he stole from the church, no external authority is needed. Do you see the distinction?

I dont see any distinction. Stealing is stealing irrespective of where it occurs and God frowns at all.

Lol - an atheist trying to tell me what a church's functions are. There is hope for you yet.

You no sabi anything about church.

That is not so - you are to exhort one another to do good works, and help anyone who is failing or backsliding. The church cannot and will not pass judgement on a crime allegedly committed in a firm over which it exercises no control nor oversight.

What does exhort good works mean? Does recieving money from a man mismanaging and embezzling sound like exhortation of good works to you?

Go ask the folks in RCCG.

Thanks - leave the asking and decisions to RCCG.

You still dodge the central question- how will Akingbola be 'known to be an embezzler'? By newspaper rumours or nairaland posts or through the judgement of a court of competent authority?

Em, Akingbola has been relieved of his pastoral duties and the G.O wouldnt touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Tell me, why did the church dismiss him? I thought the they were just ''allegations'' in an institution RCCG had no ''juridisction'' over?

They dismiss him and keep his money and gifts. . . . How swell

he's holed up abroad running from the law. . . Is that the way an innocent man behaves?

If we want to claim 'biblical' I do not recall any 'returns' of money given by thieves in the bible. Kindly point out the verse for all to see.

NB - this does not imply that I support taking money from 'thieves', but let's examine the basis for making such claims.

let me get this straight, are you suggesting its biblical to take money from thieves?

That is their prerogative - just as it is RCCG's, unless otherwise compelled.

Its not. Its the right thing to do. If the church doesnt wanna be associated with thieves, then return their donations.

What is the logic in preaching stealing as wrong then have no objections keeping money given by a thief?

Akingbola has ruined lives and even if all his assets are siezed they wouldnt cover the damage he has caused

Like I've said many times - when you can tell us how he stole and how much of the thieving money was given to RCCG, then it can be returned.

He is a thief, thieves should not be welcome in the church so also their money.

How do you know God didn't accept the gift/offering? Do you know if/when his gifts stopped being acceptable to God?

Let God decide what is unacceptable to him and deal with things - His hand is not too short, neither is he unable to act. Thanks for the 'support', but God can fight his own battles.

Em, Its well documented God does not accept the offerings of thieves; maybe at RCCG they now teach that he does. It figures

tkb417:
its either of 2 things

1) They are right and nothin will happen

2) They are wrong and they'll attract the beautiful curses
and if they do, they are on their own

whats your own

i just pray i no enter plane with these kain people cos na dem dey cause plane crashes

plane crash is caused by ''curses''?

Damn. . . . . . . .

toba:
This laugher ableYes he can. I gave u an eg of how he didnt reveal Anything  to Elisha as regards the dead boy no? Is that not anything? And if he wants to reveal 'Anything again, God will also do so, Like he revealed to Samuel what will befall Eli. His name is KABIYESI, if at all u believe that

Good to see you giving biblical examples. Kindly show me where your God hid sin in your bible. In Elisha's case God did not reveal the woman's problem, that is not Sin.

Which God, Is it the same one u said doesnt exist or another one? Until  u tell me the God u are talking about, i may not be able to tell if the above listed can be done by him or not.
I await your response. I obliged u many things calmly so answer one of my numerous questions on God and the bible, to balance the equation

sorry I'm talking about the christian God, the one you and akingbola worship.
I dont know him/her/it obviously you and akingbola claim to do. So pls show me where your God did not reveal sinful nature in your bible.

Yes my guy, but do u believe that what is said about their God therein is true and not false? If yes Lets discuss right away
Do u tudor beleive the Christians are correct to have said that or have same opinion with the Christians as regards their 'god' ? I need answer since u want to discuss what the Christians have said

your post is clear on prophet that have warranted their inclusion which is this

So i like  said there are many prophets, NL prophets are also prophets.
Try something new

This doesnt make sense to me as frankly I got a headache trying to decode what is being said here.

Question; What the hell are you talking about?

debosky:
So the church should begin to verify the incomes of each and every member? The point I am making is clear - the legal bodies of the land MUST be the ones to determine whether someone is guilty of a crime or not, and not the church. Does the church leave its core function and become a verifier of income when there are external bodies tasked with doing that?

This is shameful.
Can you point to any verse in the bible that claims for one to be quilty of sin, he or she ''MUST'' be convicted by the land?

It seem you dont know what ''church'' is or what its ''core functions'' are according to scriptures. Sad to see ,most of you think '''church'' is any organisation that conducts services.

I suggest you read your bible again and see the true definition of church and how the early church worked then you'd know its the responsibility of the church to make sure members live a life of christ, follow them up in EVERY regard and excommunicate those who dont follow christs' example.

How is the RCCG able to establish that Akingbola is a 'thief'? By press reports or by an investigation by legal bodies? This matter originated OUTSIDE of the church, in the banks or other institutions that were allegedly robbed. Since the church has no jurisdiction over those affairs, any culpability MUST as a matter of requirement be decided outside the church.

Small question; Is Akingbola still a senior pastor at RCCG?

If he was dismissed; Why was he dismissed ?

So if a newspaper says so and so stole, the church must immediately accept the story as true?   By what means does RCCG determine the culpability of Akingbola?

Ehm, by asking the owner of the church itself aka Jesus.

And If akingbola is known to have been an embezzler, all donations made by him should be returned. Its the right and biblical thing to do. God does not differentiate if its the loot or not. He doesnt accept any.

Then let God do the judging will you? If RCCG is doing wrong, then they will also be judged.

This isnt a matter of judgement. We are simply asking that they do the biblical thing and return all funds and gifts given by thieves.

Good - for the charities to be sued, someone followed the trail of stolen money to them. It's not too much to ask the authorities vested with the duty to protect the public's money to follow the trail of the allegedly stolen money to ALL locations. If one of those locations happens to be RCCG, then they have my 100% support to reclaim any such funds as required.

Some charities have been known to refund donations from fraudulent people or donors who are not in tandem with their goals.

Akingbola is a thief and has ruined lives, why should RCCG still hold on to his donations?

On what biblical basis do they still keep the money? Obvously God did not accept the gift/offering, whats the logic behind keeping it besides greed?

toba:
Did u say Show u ? Haven't u condemned the same bible as false from your atheistic view? U want me to discuss the word of God (bible) after saying  the same God doesn't exist and that Christians are deluded for believing in myth?

Honestly  tudor if u answered my questions, i will show u the basis as requested.
No its not. The basis here as laid on pages 1 to 3 wherein i've posted on this thread is that, God is the only all knowing and God can decide not to reveal anything to anyone if he(God) so desires no?
If God decided not to reveal the sin(s) of any one to Adeboye, would u still blame Adeboye or u Blame God for this?

he can decide not to reveal ANYTHING?

Lets apply your logic elsewhere,

So, God is Ominipotent and Can do all things so God can Have sex, ra.pe women, rap.e children, steal, lie, mastu.rbate, do evil.

Can God do all these too?

Can anyone of us question GOd Almighty for his actions and inactions?We have many prophets and until we visit their churches world wide to ask them we might not be able to know if God had hidden 'sin of his prophet'

Sorry, the bible is said to be the christian God's handbook. Several times on this forum christians have alluded to the bible as complete. So, if you cannot see anywhere God is said to hide sin in the bible then it should be regarded as impossible for the christian god.

Or is there such a passage? Pls show us

We can start by asking some NL Prophets first about the Key word 'SIN, SIN SIN,SIN, SIN, SIN. Jeez'

Is the Word SIN not defined in the bible? Why do you need ''NL prophet'' definition?

Pls show us where God hid sin of a prophet in the bible, we are waiting.

debosky:
You tell me since you are the Czar of reclaiming corrupt proceeds - how much of Abacha's contributions to Mosques were recovered? How much of Madoff's contributions to charities were recovered?

Emm, charities can be sued to return donations. . .some of madoffs charities have been and are going to be sued.

debosky:
There is no loop hole here - there is no evidence that Akingbola gave allegedly stolen money to RCCG. No church I know is set up as an investigative body to verify income of it's members. The issue here is that if you have a rule for Akingbola (i.e. verifying his income) why not try to establish whether the market woman who gave her offering cheated her customer at the market? Where does it stop? Leave people to their own consciences or to the legal systems to decide. The church's role is not to determine who is guilty in secular affairs.

This is funny. . . Issues of stealing and thieves have now become ''secular affairs''. Indeed

Issue does NOT stop with akingbola, only that he happens to be a high profile case. The church should have nothing to do with thieves and this should trickle right down to the house fellowships. Anyone found to be getting money sinfully should have his money returned as God does not receive stolen offerings.

By doing so with Akingbola, the Church will set an example and send a message to all branches that money given by dishonest people are not welcome to God.

Agreed.

Agreed again.

To declare them 'thieves' when the facts of the matter are still in dispute would be presumptive. Is the Church now a legal body to declare people thieves?

oh, you agree the church should work based on the laws of God, why then should the church wait for the legal system?

Right is right and wrong is wrong to God. There is no 'dispute'.

This reminds me of Al Capone the mobster, for years he was a terror and ruled the crime world. The government could not convict him for years until he was then finally put away for a minor charge of tax evasion. According to you, Al Capone a known murderer and mobster's money is allowed in the church as long as he hasnt been convicted by the law, no?
What a joke

The Spirit of God intervened in that situation and delivered instant judgement - that same Spirit is still at work today; why not leave the Spirit to decide?

Obviously the spirit isnt at work in RCCG because if so, we wouldnt be having this discussion today. God is said to never change

BTW, Akingbola has been dismissed as a senior pastor in RCCG, not so?

There is no die hard attempt - seeking to place the burden of proof on the church makes no sense here, since it is neither vested with the power or authority to determine if the allegations are true or not.

Sorry this is just plain desperation. The church is NOT a legal body and as such needs no judge,jury and legal process to convict.

This is pretty straight forward, Akingbola has mismanaged and ruined his bank by embezzling and was involved in various shady deals while making himself extremely rich. RCCG does not need to file injunctions and whatnot. What is the Holy Spirit there for?

The law might not be able to convict him thanks to smart lawyers or bribes but that does not change the eternal truth that he stole. God does not judge based on tge smartness of your lawyers but by your deeds.

Anyone who claims Akingbola, OBJ, Ibori and co are innocent because they havent been convicted is just lying to himself. Yes, they have not been convicted by law but in the eyes of God are they not thieves?

Obama wasn't being morally conscious - he was engaged in a popularity battle. Anything that could be deemed detrimental to his goal of being elected was removed. Besides, the fellow involved in financial irregularities was probably convicted no?

Your evidence obama wasnt morally conscious is what??

People do the RIGHT thing for various reasons but the important thing is They DID THE RIGHT THING.

Besides, the dude was not convicted. Allegations came up and Obama decided to refund all donations linked to that donor.

Why cant RCCG and Adeboye do the right thing??

To surmise, this thread is talking about 'looted offering' - if we can't even establish in the first instance that it is in fact looted offering (something only the investigating agencies can do) then there is no basis for any return.

Question is does it really matter to God which is which?

Does God receive the offerings of looters be it their legit or illegit income

If God does not receive it in the first place, then what business does the church have keeping it then?

PS - The church has not made any 'excuses'. I have simply examined the practicality of 'returning the looted offering'. and given a personal opinion Such a return must be sufficiently identified before it can be carried out.

These are Excuses, practicality, technicality, legality etc are all bogus excuses to prevent doing the biblical thing.

Return all donations made by thieves as thieves should not be associated with the church and God does not acknowledge the offering of thieves.

Excuses like you cant prove if it's the loot he gave are just lame as it does not matter to God. A thief is a thief.

dayokanu:
When it comes to the issue of money, Church leaders turn to lawmakers who must sit on the loot at all cost

lol abi. . .they all turn lawyers by force. Looking for technicalities and loop holes all in a bid to hold on to ungodly money.

debosky:
Have the property firms he bought from come out to say how much he spent on homes and refunded? Have the petrol stations come out to detail how much he spent and refunded? Have the airlines declared how much he spent on plane tickets?  

More pertinently, have his employers stated how much he earned legitimately to be able to discern whether anything he gave to RCCG was above/below what could be legally avoided?

Whether cheques can be traced or not, the church's duty is not to release information on individual members for the fun of it. Let a court convict Akingbola, or demand the evidence from RCCG and it can then be provided. Anything beyond that is chasing shadows.

Quite true - when did giving to RCCG become an asset?  

When did RCCG become a bank where money was kept by Akingbola?  

You are being presumptive - there is NO EVIDENCE that any giving to RCCG was out of looted funds. If any such evidence exists, it is the duty of the investigative agencies to provide it. The church is not in the business of verification of income - that is the government and tax agencies' job.

Honour lies in returning any identified illegal gain - this must come at the behest of constituted authority. The church is not established to investigate members for financial impropriety in the financial services industry - the regulators and the police are supposed to do that.

How is the church supposed to verify the income from each and every one of it's members?  

Isnt it funny that the ''church'' which is supposed the be the ''body of christ'' worshipping in ''spirit and truth'' and here you are trying to maneouver and find loop holes and technicalities in law, put burden of proof on prosecutors etc.

The church is supposed to work based on the laws of God and the spirit, anything contrary to that no matter how acceptable to the secular world is a no go.

The church is to be holy and pure and God does NOT accept the offerings of thieves whether it be the legally acquired portion or the loot. I repeat God does NOT accept the offerings of thieves. So what business does the church have keeping the money from these men anyway? Deluding themselves and asking that the government prove the gifts and jet donations where from his loot. Does it really matter which to God?

In the story of ananias in Acts Chapter 5 after the whole scenario it says in verse 11 '' And Great Fear came upon the church and all who heard these things.''

That singular event brought great fear upon the church and told people outrightly it was wrong to lie. Action speaks louder than words. If RCCG decided to return all gifts and money given by erastus as is the right thing to do, wont that send a good message to the church? Wont that make it outrightly clear that the body of christ will NOT be associated with thieves in any way?

Sadly,  all we see are die hard attempts to keep money given by thieves (money that God didnt accept in the first place) and making excuses like ''no its the legal income he gave us'' . Pity

Even President Obama during his campaign when it emerged one of his donors was involved in financial irregularities, He refunded all donations made by the fellow.
He wasnt making excuses claiming the donations came from the dude's legal income. If obama can be that morally conscious, how much more the church?

toba:
U are very deceitful my guy as pointed out by jesus on this thread in all ramifications.

Which God? the same one u said doesnt exist, said nasty things about and now require me to provide scriptures from the false bible no?
I dont understand how u require something from mythical being
A simple response would do

I repeat, my views on the accuracy of the bible is irrelevant. The important thing here is you, adeboye and akingbola consider the bible to be true and have chosen to take moral bearings therein.

I have asked you to validate your's and their actions using the bible you all believe.

Show me the basis their behaviour in your own bible. Very simple

And i gave u Elisha's case on how God didn't reveal an event that occurred to him. Same i reckon could have been applicable to Adeboye no?

What did God not reveal to Elisha? Is IT SIN?

I have asked a million times show me where God hid SIN of his prophets. KEYWORD IS SIN, SIN SIN,SIN, SIN, SIN. Jeez

toba:
Its not so hard. why cant u answer simple questions first?

It would be illogical when this was posted by u on the same bible u want as quotes
Now after reading the bible and saw 'D' ( only God knows what u meant by the word) If i post scriptures for u, what if u claim to see 'B' after seeing 'D' initially?

Answer my questions and u have your quotes QED

I repeat my view on the veracity of the bible isnt necessary here. Post scriptures that are clear for all to see and show us how God hid SIN.

A simple story where its explicitly written God hid SIN of a prophet. If such were provided there can be no denying.

This ones i provided on previous pages aren't scriptures? but what

I already showed you those scriptures do not apply to this situation as they are unrelated. You posted nothing to disagree.

Remember We are talking of God hiding sin in the bible KEYWORD is SIN. You are yet to provide a biblical story to confirm this.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=481794.msg6426114#msg6426114 date=1279730954]Like seriously i get really perplexed at the way folks tend to take issues too far and most annoying is the way the hype it when it regards to church and the things of God.

Ok lets see it this way:

Erastus stole money( as alleged) and he was known to be a 'pastor' in RCCG before and during the incident, therefore he should refund the 'stolen' monies back, OK! so what about the places he bought his automobiles from, what about the places he bought his wardrobes from, oh better still what about those fastfoods/ restaurants he bought stuffs from with the 'stolen monies'? maybe he should go back and tell them to refund.

Isnt it very stu.pid to think?

Alas when it comes to church and spiritual issues every d.ck n  harry wants to open their mouth to talk.[/quote]Err that his why assets are siezed. Including house, cars and other belongings. Try again pls

toba:
Im here. provide answers and u get your scripture(s). My questions are related, in that its about God and the Christian bible which our subject of discuss (akingbola and Adeboye) believes strongly in. NO?

So? How does my view of the bible's veracity affect the discussion?

Good for you to have said adeboye and akingbola believe strongly in the bible. We are discussing THEM not ME. Since they believe in the bible, we are to examine them based on their belief not mine

Show me scripture that justifies their behaviour or failings. Its not so hard

Cos i consented to your request and now is your turn to reciprocate.

You didnt consent. You are yet to provide a scripture that supports your view. Stop running.

emmydee:
My sister, u dont call an anointed man of God a 'man of dog' no matter the level of your disagreement with what he's doing.
I honestly support that the govt. (EFCC) should go after the loot wherever they are and retrieve them, but it doesnt call for such insults.

sorry oo, but what do you call a man who receives stolen money and refuses to return it? Anointed? Na so

toba:
I provide answers to my questions and u have your scriptural basis Immediately. Im here for u any time.

Sorry your questions are inconsequential and have no bearing on the discussion at hand (see pastor aio's post for more info). pROVIDE YOUR SCRITure AND STOP RUNNING!

btw, how come you had no problem presenting scriptures earlier??

[quote author=Aloy_Emeka link=topic=481794.msg6425508#msg6425508 date=1279725400]For what?. The money has gone up to God. If EFCC wants the money badly, they can contact God or freeze God's assets.  Bastards.[/quote]God receives stolen money from RCCG?

The God Adeboye worships then is a criminal. QED

Mkpotu:
This topic would rather be described as illogical and mere distraction which does not deserve any answer!!!

Returning looted funds to the rightful owners is what you call illogical?

My goodness. . .what has christianity turned into these days?

Pastor AIO:
I believe that Tudor's argument is not based on whether or not the Bible is true or false, but rather it is based on consistency.  Are the activities of these 'christians' consistent with what is written in the bible?  Whether or not the bible is true or false, this matter of consistency can be studied independently.

GBAM! But obviously the guy knows this. He os just a joker like most christians today.

He had no reservations presenting scriptures which he thought supported his view to me earlier which I debunked, when faced with the fact his views aren't consistent with the bible all of a sudden the dude will not discuss with an unbeliever. I laugh

toba:
Is it the false Christian bible according to tudor? I await your response ASAP

My challenge is still open to you. Provide scriptural basis for your claims and stop running. Why is this so hard and painful for you to do?

^^
em, actually, I'm being serious.
My white pal told me that at lunch today. He believes it proves Adam and eve were white. How he came to that conclusion I dont know.

Sure this proves God is a white man. . . . . . QED

Any word from G.O himself?

toba:
Its very simple which bible verses?. Is it the one u said is false and that the God it speaks about is non existent?

Its easy, answer my question, whilst i consent to your request. your reluctance to answer my question could mean u re scared of admitting the already known fact about the bible and its God as Factual no?

toba:
Its very simple which bible verses?. Is it the one u said is false and that the God it speaks about is non existent?

Its easy, answer my question, whilst i consent to your request. your reluctance to answer my question could mean u re scared of admitting the already known fact about the bible and its God as Factual no?

It quite obvious really, these are just evasive tactics. We all know there are NO verses in the bible that support your claims. Cry from now till yonder, they wont be there. So keep fooling yourself.

Next please.

toba:
U are the only odd one here see how many pple that are challenging your rantings.

@ the bolded i ve told u never to generalized. Speak for your self man.

I will ask again which scripture? the one u believe or the one u dnt believe in? So i can post asap

Post bible verses to support your claim. . . . Why is this so hard? Why is this so painful for you?

Could your reluctance perhaps be because there is NONE and you wanna keep deluding yourself?

Why oh why?? why?? why??

Since when have christians become ashamed of quoting the word?
Is it because they have NONE to quote?

Every way you look at it, its all sad.