₦airaland Forum

Carlosein:
to get this back on course, i just want to ask you a question which i think is a summary of all these postings and squabbles. it is this: from your understanding of the bible (or with reference to the word of God), WHAT IS THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF ALL TRUTHS- THE BIBLE OR THE CHURCH?

i look forward to your answer, and once again say am sorry for the misunderstanding.

God bless

First may I commend you for the good spirited way you have engaged in this discussion. Secondly may I apologise if I have given you reason to take offence. Please believe me when I say that was at no time my intention. Apologies also for my sometimes rambuctious literary style.

Having said that, back to the business in hand, which is to answer your question.

~ "THE BIBLE"

Please say on.

God bless

[quote author=gbade. x link=topic=29802.msg693990#msg693990 date=1163018410]@TV01,

dude, i don't understand that personality thingy. If you say you ain't going after their personalities, then what are you going after? You can't speak en mass because this ain't statistics. And if you say you ain't personalities, then you are using that haggard brother as an example.
Look, the point is, sin is sin and we're all humans embodied in this flesh. So irrespective of status or authority, we all face sin. And i think the problem's not in a pastor sheperding a huge flock, i believe it's a matter of the flesh overcoming that homey, Period! And since we "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", who are we to condemn?
I hope ya now get the picture?[/quote]The Ted Haggard issue is just a poinnt in question.
I have not judged nor condenmed him, I did'nt even read the letter posted. And I am not really that interested in the particulars of this case.

My point is that what happened to him is an outworking of faulty theology and wrong doctrine embodied in church structure and hierarchy and manifested as what you see.

My posts are about this.
Bogus platitudes like judge not or who are we to condenm are not answering my point.

So because we have all sinned, that makes it alright then?

Please don't take offence, but this sounds like you reciting what people in such positions tell you.

God bless.

Ndipe:
Ynot, we are all sinners in the eyes of God. It is only the Grace of God that has absolved us of our sins.

I don't know that I agree with this.

True Christians are God's righteousness in Christ Jesus.

When you say we are sinners, yes in the sense that we can stumble, fall even.
But no in the sense that we are inverterate sinners, habitual evil doers or lovers of iniquity.
Calling yourself a sinner when God calls you righteous is to me misplaced humility, or smug piety.

If one has a long term entrenched sin issue (and whilst I don't want to get into the issue of grading sin - edspecially if it's something that screams rebellion against God like homosexuality), surely this is beyond "taking heed lest you fall". I'd say the word "apostate" comes into play.

Further, my argument about church structure and how it engenders this sort of thing is apt.

A man is exalted, venerated even. He is looked on as somehow closer to God, more holy, more knowledgable, a mediator between God and man. Now he has a serious sin issue. But he is still jetting around the world assuming cover for hundreds of churches, thousands of pastors and millions of people. How does that figure?

He has been made to feel he is somehow crucial, to individuals and the body. Men have told him this, honour him for it, and surely his status testifies to it. So why does'nt he step down? take time out? In fact he preaches against the very thing he practices (Romans 2 anyone?).

Surely it's only the flesh that would let you risk disqualification and total shipwreck, for the glory that comes from men?

God bless

Hi TayoD,

Continuing our discussion.

You're in red I'm in blue. You can be the home team.

Even Christ understood the fact that it takes men to point others to Him, no wonder He said to Peter three times to feed his sheep.  

Pray tell, did the Lord expect these fed to remain in need of feeding forever? Would you expect a younger brother of yours to be dependant on your for the entirety of his life?

Going by your conclusions, are we then to condemn Apostle Paul for telling us to follow him as he follows Christ?   And I wonder why there are stories of other men who serve God in the Bible if all we are to do is just keep our attention only on Jesus and not on the heritage of faith that others have left for us and are living in front of us.

You really do believe that faith in Jesus Christ is at least in part predicated on a relationship with MOGS don’t you. The Lord said “My sheep” He also said “My voice”. He went on to say “follow me”. And further “Take up your cross and follow me”. Due mostly to your flawed understanding of Christian relationship and interaction (you probably – knowingly or unknowingly – cling to an organisational/hierarchical model of church), you really can’t see it can you? Paul met with the Lord. Have you? Have you even met with Paul? “The treasure is in jars of clay, that the excellency may be of God”. We all imitate our earthly fathers or elder brothers, but you have to be able to stand. You really feel that giving attention to men will aid your walk? Can you tell the difference between a sheep and a lemming?

Hebrews 13: 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.  But of course, according to the Gospel of TV01, that is tantamount to the works of the flesh.

Follow their faith, not them. Their example. Daddy was a coal miner and worked hard. Is it about being a coal miner or working hard? Dude, get understanding!

So the Old Testament is now anachronistic, unprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, correction and instructions in righteousness?  A clear case of what our reactions should be to the fall of a brother as illustrated by David's attitude is not applicable to us as Christians?

Again, you fail to read and respond in turn. I said you were misapplying the OT, your response is to say I am declaring it redundant. Speaks volumes about your reasoning and thought processes. BTW, the NT says rebuke sin and restore a fallen brother in love. The OT is not a template for NT Christian life. BY trying to force fit it, and ham-fistedly misapply it, you are undermining the fullness to be found in the NT.

Men, I wonder what you will teach in your church when you eventually become an Elder (since you do not believe in pastorship).

Again your ignorance thunders. An elder and a pastor are to a great degree synonymous. Again, you wrongly ascribe and plain misunderstand. I believe in the Lord. “Pastorship” is not something one believes in, it’s something one understands (or fails to) and applies (or mis-applies)accordingly. I have said time and again, there is no scriptural mandate for a “Pastorship” as commonly used in many churches these days, and that would include the sort assumed by Ted Haggard (I’m 100% sure that you won’t attempt to validate your “pastorship” stance from scripture, as it can’t be done!).

Your conclusions baffle me about Ted being a victim of the church structure.  When are you going to understand that the things which defile a man come from the inside (the heart) unto the outside?  How come others in such a position are not Homosexuals.  We know of the heritage of faith left by Kenneth E. Hagin.  Not once was he caught up in any scandal.  And he was in ministry for 70 years of his 86 years on earth.  Again, you will tell us it is not about personalities, but you will see the personality in the instance of a fall, but wouldn't in the instance of a triumph.

Please see my immediate previous response. The flawed structure and unscriptural mandates speak to and feed the flesh. The outworking is what you see all around you. There is a difference between a man honoured and respected as an elder (scriptural), and one revered and deferred to as a MOG (not scriptural).

I have nothing to say about anyone, but please hear this -  “For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord”. Paul could not even presume to declare himself guiltless. And here you are endorsing a mere man, whom I doubt you even met. But then again, you venerate those who you haven’t even seen. Working hard for that "Mogsbottom" title

I am eagerly awaiting your response. I am actually quite keen to see just how far off point you can go, and convoluted you will be, to try and sustain a losing position.

God bless

TayoD,

As touching personalities, I always have time for you, not because we share doctrinal positions or for any personal reasons, but solely because I sense you are somewhat sincere (even if sincerely wrong  ). I know from experience that if one truly seeks God for Himself, He will be found.

That said, I am quite dissapointed at your responses on this thread. You started by lambasting me for no coherent reason whatsoever. When I pointed this out (amongst other things) in a short six point reponse, your replying post failed (intentionally I take it ) to answer any of my points. Instead you again went on to erroneously ascribe things to me and then try and rubbish my person & doctrine. I thought you'd leave the ad-hominem invective to political spin doctors and presidential  advisors, but I do understand, given your amour for politics.

I am sore dissapointed by your failure to stick to the points in hand, keep to doctrine and scripture and not let your emotions dictate your responses.

I'll try and respond direct to the points? you raised later.

God bless

TayoD,

I can see you are focusing on me and not our shared faith. Let me save you the time. I am not worth it.

Truth be told, that's not entirely surprising, as you appear to think it's about personalities.

Firstly, as I responded to BabyOsisi above, its not about any man.

Secondly, please show me where I  gloated over, judged or condenmed Ted Haggard. In fact, having re-read, I did'nt even refer to the charges or allegations against him.

Thirdly, why do you insist on mis-applying Old Testament narrative to NT Christianity? I am not David to His Saul. And like I went to great pains to point out, willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly, he is a victim (as well as a perpetuator) of flawed church structure and tradition, which was the whole thrust of my post.

Fourthly, like BabyOsisi did, after (incorrectly & blindly) ranting on about my judging, you turn around and question if I'm a Christian or if I have the Spirit of God. You could have admonished what you perceived to be my immaturity or chastised my erroneous reading/application of scripture. But you take it on yourself to deem me "not of the kingdom of God".  

Fifthly, you can weep and gnash teeth all you like, cry anguish and distress till kingdom come, but the fact remains (which I would have mistakenly backed you to repond to), there is something fundamental flawed here. Christians fall into sin every day, how many of them do you weep for? As I have previously stated the current day MOG concept and, application is part of the problem. But you have every right to choose delusion.

Sixthly, I seek not my own glory, eschew any need to have a reputation. So please say on.

God bless.

babyosisi:
Honey,judgment belongs to God almighty.
Let's not be quick in casting blame
With what measure ye mete it shall be meted unto you the Bible says.

No one made Pastor Haggard a god and he has never claimed to be above man,desist from conclusions you know nothing about. If indeed you're a Christian,choose your words with wisdom. Rejoice with them that rejoice and mourn with they that mourn. Take heed,you are but a mere man.

Sister BabyOsisi (Please forgive the Sister bit, it's just that I'd feel somewhat forward addressing you by your tag alone),

Now to business,

If you've read any of my posts, you'd know that I am not interested in personalities, neither am I a respecter of persons.

My post was to highlight what I believe to be a fundamental flaw in church structure/hierarchy/organisation. This is not about Ted Haggard. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be judged according to our deeds. To me it's irrelevant what Ted Haggard claims to be or what men make him out to be.

My position (and I reiterate), is that men are sitting in places they are not meant to, places that will always see them succumb. God does not call anyone to be covering for 14'000 people, or 45'000 pastors of 30 million Saints. Even if you are as humble as pie sitting in such an exalted position will see you glorying in your flesh.

God doesn't call or mandate such exaltation. And the church structures and traditions which give rise to such offices are not scripturally mandated. If you assume such an office, through ambition or even a genuine desire to serve, don't be surprised when your flesh gets the better of you. It doesn't even have to be to such a height before it gets you. See the outworking in Catholicism. Small parish priests succumbing to perverse sexual immorality. demi-God Nigerian Pastors in tin shack churches giving in to unrestrained excess, bigamy, money laundering, murder ad nauseum. It's at all levels. No flesh shall glory in His presence - what it will do is the only thing it nows to do!

How many people did Paul minister too? Yet God gave him a "thorn in the side" to keep him in check. And this is a man who suffered immense privation, was itinerant, sacrificed the joys of family life, was a fugitive, shipwrecked and beaten to a pulp amongst other things.

I don't judge because I cannot justify and I don't condemn, because I cannot save. I speak that which is glaringly obvious to those who really care to see. I could come in here all teary eyed  playing my violin, talking of mercy and spouting misguided "judge not" platitudes, but this is not the time to be overly pious (is there ever?).

As for questioning my Christianity - suffice to say (as I always do), "The Lord knows those who are His"

davidylan:
What of Job? Was the enemy feeding off his ignorance too? Is there no more room for trials and temptations?

The adversary is a tool in God's hands.
He is limited in what he can do .

The devil can only attack Christians if they step out from under God's covering (or break the hedge so to speak). It's possible that God may allow the devil leeway in order to fulfil His own will. Pehaps one requires trying (as The Lord was). God does not tempt anyone. Succumbing to temptation is down to man giving leave to his lusts (flesh).

1 John 5:18 - We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

James 1:13 - Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God bless

Carlosein:
No way I'm shooting complex BIBLICAL teaching in your direction if you fail in the space of days (weeks really!) to understand SIMPLE teachings as all the above. St. Paul would not expect me to proceed since you are unable to chew these with milk teeth, i can not feed you with solid food.

Please help me leave my childish dietary habits behind and move on to solid food  .

Carlosein:
When you have seen the light and you know the truth and accept the truth, only then will you be saved

But that can't happen if you refuse to shed light (i.e. feed me meat) can it  ?

So sir, it all sounds a bit circular to me. You won't share your deep insights with me, as I am still on milk. But if I see the light, i.e if I come to understanding, then you will enlighten me?

If you have something to share, please feel free to do so. Maybe it will be good for edification, or hep one become more mature. Or maybe after growing some more one will come to the conclusion that  "Carlosein was right all along".

Those who hubristically believe they are the custodians of God's truth, sharing it with whom they see fit, promoting religious caste hierarchies and persecuting those who question or don't submit to them are at the root of all Christianity's problems  .

Thank God for the Holy Spirit. "He will lead me into all truth"

God bless.

You know it never ceases to amaze me? When will people wake up, when will people go to God for themselves and settle for nothing less than being recreated in the image of the Lord Jesus by the power of The Holy Spirit. Why are you so insistent on being mentored, covered, shepherded and taught by cursed flesh? Does no one have the desire for a personal encounter with their Creator? Is no one willing to make the sacrifice to get into His presence? You satisfy yourselves with proxies, human mediators, man-made organizational structures and religious activity in its most perverse form.

How long will you pin your hopes on personalities and venerate mere men? The really weird thing in all of this is that you set this man up to fall and many to fall after/with him.

Let me explain.

I am told that as head of the NAEA (North American Evangelical Alliance), this guy is the “cover” for 30 million Christians. I am told he is the cover for 45’000 pastors and personally pastors a church of 14’000. The truth is God gives that charge to no man. Men gave him that mandate. And it’s stealing Gods glory.

Such an exalted position and “covering authority” is not granted to men, period. Men cannot cover men, ‘cause flesh cannot cover flesh (that’s known as an orgy, check out the sexual immorality amongst your MOGS!) It’s trying to share the Lords glory, it’s sitting in his seat. He is the only mediator. All a man can do is glory in the flesh, but alas, in the flesh is no good thing. Exalt the flesh and it will do what flesh does, sin, and as wickedly as it can.

Why do you think you MOGS and GMOGS always fall so terribly, it’s because flesh cannot cope with the kind of exaltation you give these people. Why do you think they turn to pederasty, drugs, murder, wholesale malfeasance, grand larceny, and every evil imaginable? And when will you read deep and stop peddling out the same sorry excuses of the devil targeting MOGS/GMOGS. Listen, the devil wants every Christian wallowing and dying in sin.

If he targets them, it’s because he’s feeding off your scriptural ignorance. The devil can only touch you if you step out from under God’s covering. Period. He is a tool in God’s hands not some freelance operator. How weird is that? Exalting man and glorifying the adversary.

It’s not as if the Bible is not choc-a-block with warnings. Where does one start?

There are more to come and it will get increasingly worse. Look to Him from whence cometh your help, and don’t even bat an eyelid when you hear of these things. Many call Him Lord, but do not do the things that He says. The signs, wonders works (huge temples, massive crusades, etc etc) avail nothing. "The Lord knows those who are His, and let everyone who names the name of Christ Lord depart from iniquity". Period.

The voice of one cryin'

TayoD:
@TV01,

Looks like we finally have a topic to agree on.

What are you saying?
Read it again, more carefully this time, I'm sure there's something in there that is a gross perversion of scripture !

I'll do a complete about turn if that will help?
TayoD, please, it's essential we don't agree, no one else even starts to engage me on this site anymore.

Eureka. Ha!

This to me ties in with our ongoing discussion in "Christians & Politics"
Ceasar is the state. And politics is allying, consorting, partnering with the state - Ergo, there's no way we agree .

Phew, for a moment you had me going .

God bless dude

Hi Peeps,

Carlosein:
again i repeat to TV01 that the sincere and simple seeker after THE TRUTH, will come to the conclusions that there are divine revelations which are not in the bible

So? I'm am concerned solely with the truth of God in Christ Jesus.
The Bible contains all the pertains to life and Godliness in this respect.

The Bible itself says if all the miracles that Jesus did where documented, there probably wouldn't be space enough. Do I need to know every word God ever uttered to any/all of the Archangels? or the adversary? Or every angelic encounter? No! So revelation outside the Bible, be it of a divine nature is of no real import to my being a Christian/disciple of Christ.

The Bible testifies the Jesus Christ is the fullest revelation of God, The brightness of His Glory and the express image of His Person. The one through whom He now speaks unmediated (self-styled prophets, apostles etc etc kicked into touch right there!)

Carlosein:
but just as inspired as the bible but maybe you have not pondered this as i thought.

Like I said above, I see no point in "pondering" extra-curricular material. The Bible is complete, perfect for perfecting children of God in Christ Jesus.

Carlosein:
well this discussion is much too prolonged and i have only one more posting after this and
that depends on what i read here.

Go ahead, shoot!

Carlosein:
read all what is posted here from the word go and see how many actually make sense please stoop unnecessary bickerings (or what do u call this?)

On the one side (mine) a thoughtful attempt to engage, on the other (yours), a thinly veiled attempt to foister (and wholesale for that matter) you deeply entrenched tradition. Everybody say after me - No to Popery!! Down with man-made tradition!!

Carlosein:
again Dominus Vobiscum

And again, God bless you.

Hi All,

babyosisi:
Drusilla,I really thought you were a Christian until I saw your postings somewhere else.
The gospel is still the same.

BabyOsisi, that's not fair. "The Lord knows those who are His"

We problbably all have points of difference and areas of greater or lesser maturity. I confess to having made complete about turns on some previously held positions. It did'nt make me any less a Christian, just a growing one. I don't think that call is yours to make.

davidylan:
No she's just masquerading as one. Even the devil can quote the bible, it does not make him a believer! From several postings of her's that I've read especially on the racism threads, she's more of head knowledge than a genuine heart conviction!

Davidylan, same again. I don't happen to share what I discern to be Drusilla's position in her postings about race, but doesn't give me the right to label her a fraud. Presumably if you can find just the one point of difference between yourself and another self confessed Christian, then that gives you the right to label them a charlatan?

It's a walk that we all make individually. It's a relationship that we all have to nurture without proxies. None of us has full knowledge or understanding of anothers walk. The Lord does. And He knows those who truly love Him and leads them by his grace.

As to the post in question, I for one can see Drusila's point (In both her posts on this thread).

A LovePeddler is always a lot more obvious, than a bride.

God bless

babyosisi:
I said CHURCHES were tax exempt not christians.

That's not quite the point I was making.

Christians pay tax right?
Then come together, call themselves an organisation and claim the tax back. Why?
It's the state's way of making the church subject. The tax breaks come at a price, physically and spiritually.
It also raise questions about trust in our Lord if we look to the state for resourcing


What should happen is that Christians pay tax - and then dispose of their money as they choose, and it's no concern of the state. We don't need Ceasars tax breaks. The state funding is a sly way of making the church subject. We are subject only to the Lord, our Head & Husband.

Neither is the church an organisation (corporation, registered charity, legal entity etc etc).
We are the body of Christ and should in no way be yoked to the state. One of the big pointers to false religion is any kind of alliance with the state.

Nigeria's case is somewhat different. As I don't believe the churches get tax breaks or register as companies. As such they are not tied to the State. But that doesn't give them leave to break the law (ill-gotten gains as tithes/offerings).

God bless.

Eineje:
I think that EFCC should probe churches because of the way they are managed,finance and run at times are not really transperant.It should be noted that most religous if not all religous instituition in Nigeria do not pay any form of tax even though they handle a lot of monies which they do not account for

Yes and no, right and wrong (methinks anyway).

If members of a church pay their taxes, they are free to dispose of their earnings as they see fit. Like any other member of society. Having rendered unto Ceasar what is his. Disposal of legally acquired funds ceases to be any of the states concern.

If however a church yokes itself to Ceasar (by registering as a charity, incorporating as a business, or otherwise assuming a status that is sanctioned by and thus subject to the state), that puts a different hue on things.

Businesses and charities are subject to Ceasar, it's why they could ride roughshod into KICC and do pretty much as they pleased. Although a "registered charity" buying an 80 grand chariot for a pastor is government business. If a group of believers decide to do the same it's between them & God. Not that I am suggesting that it's a good idea, I am just making the point that, if you yoke yourself to Ceasar, he will deal with you on his terms

babyosisi:
Churches ad religious organisations are tax exempt.
They are non profit.

No, Christians are not tax exempt. By (counter-intuitively & contra scripturally) registering/incorporating, they are after Ceasars coin. All we need do is trust God with what we have and to supply what we need.

In whatever guise, how can the aim of Church be profit?

God bless

Hi Olex,

It is not my intention to prolong this discussion any further.
Unfortunately,


Christianity ‘can exist’ without the Bible.
Really? How?

The early church had no Bible. What we today call the Bible is a collection of the Hebrew scriptures and writings by the apostles of Jesus and Saint Paul.
So, if they had the Hebrew scriptures, they had some of the Bible (the old bits) right? And the new bits just required penning. By the Apostles of Jesus including Paul.

It is made up of books written by inspired men and women.
Inspired by whom (or what) may I ask? And which one's were written by women?

As I stated in an earlier post, in the Catholic Church there is the belief that God continues to reveal Himself to men and women all across the world till this day.
Believers beyond the Roman Catholic Church also believe this. But to some, it's not in the sense or revealing new truth. Just revealing and deepening His eternal unchanging ones.

Why don’t we all think about this—the Bible is the product of the church. The church is not a product of the Bible.
Does that mean God had nothing to do with it? Sounds strange to me when one calls to mind that without abiding in the Word, you can't be a disciple, whereas you can go to/attend/join a church and not be. To accept the above statement as fact means the church is subject to itself (men that is!) and not the Lord.

Thus, Roman Catholic practices have become refined over time.
And this refining is done by? Under whose Authority? For what purpose?

However, what matters most is doing good and following the teachings of Christ each day as well as loving our fellow human beings and living in peace with everyone.
Aaah, something we can agree on.

God bless

Dominobaby nailed it! Although I doubt "religious" people read their bibles, or at least not with an open heart. It's just to confirm their denominational traditions and doctrines.

You are absolutely right. "Only God can save us all"

Hi Donzman, Please have a read when you have the time. You may well have something insightful to add.

Hi TayoD,

Good w/e end I trust.

You said;
You sure have your way of running with a scripture without balancing that scripture with others.  I have emphasised in our discussion, the need to have the Bible explain itself, but it seems you are just set in your ways and your thought.  In any case, why not try and balance the referenced scripture above with the following:
Proverbs 29:2
Show me a righteous ruler and I will show you a happy people. Show me a wicked ruler and I will show you a miserable people. (GNT)
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (KJV)
When the godly are in authority, the people rejoice. But when the wicked are in power, they groan (NLT).

My response;
I must say you almost have a half point here. But it doesn't bear out under close scrutiny. I know of no Godly rulers, but lots of relatively happy countries/states. How manage? Secondly, you need to understand that Judaism coloured everything the Jews did. To such an extent that the religion/culture and politics where pretty much one. The test of a ruler in Judah?Israel was not their miltary might or their economic prowess, it was how God-fearing they were.

You said;
This assertion can not be corroborated by scripture, nor by history.  With respect to history, Nigeria is what it is today basically because one man (Babangida) became the head of State.  Much of the corruption and lack of respect for lives and properties became the norm when he came into power.  In other words, the nation tends to take on the character of the leader.  Read through the book of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible, and you will see that Isreal either turns away or serve God based on the ruling King.  When the King is God-fearing, the whole of Isreal tend to be God-fearing and vice versa.

My response;
I don't know many people who have anything good to say about IBB, but you are the first person I know to lay the whole blame for Nigeria's woes at his feet. Your point here cannot be corroborated by history, as Nigeria's problems have their roots in distant history and where well seeded before IBB arrived on the scene, he merely upped the ante. As for scripture, please read on. Let me try and link this with my response to your insightful piece about Israel with the "Thrones" thing I mentioned earlier. When the Kingdom was split into Israel & Judah it essentially established two thrones. The one of Judah was of God and was always relatively peaceful. Israel was a bad throne, a throne of rebellion. It will almost always corrupt whomever sits on it if they are not corrupt already. Therein lies the danger of trying to sit on the thrones of this world by worldly means. Maybe I should have been using corrupt instead of compromise in my earlier posts.

You said;
Your error is still based on your assumption that the 'world' refers to politics, commerce and culture.  I have shown you scriptures over and over again that contradicts your view but you just won't accept it.  Claiming you have to be compromised to attain political power, yet stating that God can favour you to such a 'compromising' position is an affront on the integrity of Almighty God.  Mitchelle Bachmann was in church giving all the glory to God.  By her position in politics, she's gained such a visibility (a city set on a hill that cannot be hid), and through that visibility, her testimony of Christ is heard in more homes across the State than most preachers or believers will ever dream of.

My response;
I made it very clear (and showed scriptural references) that the world comprised of Kingdoms (amongst other things). A kingdom/State, comprises of Politics, commerce, culture and much much more. I don't know if I previously mis-stated, or you misread, but I have subsequently made it very clear that I don't lump all the elements together as one. Politics and its power, ways & means are what are under discussion here. Trying to ascribe things to me was not funny the first time you tried it. Now it's unfunny and tedious to boot.

You said;
Please tell this to God, and advice Him that His role as a King (Executive), Lawgiver (Legislative) and Judge (Judiciary) is ill-adviced.  Can't you see that America, founded on the biblical principles actually got the idea of democracy from God as revealed in Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
So since when did it become 'wordly' and 'ungodly' to imitiate God?  Ephesians 5:1  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children

My response;
I'm not sure if you misread what I meant if it actually matters given your ham-fisted way with the scriptures. Would you like scriptures showing that "Man" in his carnal state cannot be redeemed by law. Does God do it by law or by Grace. The riposte abouy God as King, lawgiver and judge sounds like you're out of ideas and thus "running to Daddy". Since when did Kings and democracy go together?

I won't reference (or research) the lady you mentioned. As I always maintain, it's not about personalities. But about "Giving glory to God". Half measures, compromise, pyhrric victories on bogus battle fronts and the mistaken assumption that God's kingdom is of this world or advanced by things of this world is in no way God gloryfying. Even if it's well intended, it's still misguided.

I won't argue about about America's founding principles ( I wasn't there  ), but please don't roll out that sorry old cliche about it being a Christian country. There are no Christian countries.

Say on sir.

God bless.

Endi:
The Issue is not the denomination in Christainity that is worth it, Its your personal relationship with Baba God and his Son that matters.

Maybe not how I would have worded it, but the above matcches my sentiment pretty much exactly.

Denominationalism (and the spirit behind it - which to my mind is no different from {or at least closely related to } the one behind, racism, sectarianism, apartheid etc etc) is one of trhe enemy's biggest tools.

The body of Christ (aka The Bride) is one. Headed by the Lord Himself (The Bridegroom). None of the 37'000 odd denominations can lay claim to all truth, knowledge or solely representing the Lord here on earth.

The Bible simply states "The Lord knows those who are His" No amount of convoluted scriptural exegesis will change that fact. There is no denominational tag, attendance or membership that validates anyone as a Christian. Or for those who don't like that tag, "A disciple of Christ". He said "If you abide in my Word, you are my disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

He is a rewarder of those who seek Him - unqualified. And there is no particular denominational vehicle nominated to do that.

All of the man-made dogmas, traditions, doctrines and precepts are futile in the pursuit of God.

There is only One Mediator between man & God, the Man Jesus Christ

My advice? Grab your bibles and fall to your knees.

Carlosein:
Finally, i find it out of place that u should have quoted that particular passage, i mean "The fullness of Christianity and everything that pertains to it is to be found in Christ" when u should be saying something like the fulness of christianity is to be found in the BIBLE! (your initial point)

Christ is the Living Word - same difference sir.

God bless.

Donzman:
I lost all respect for you when you said that tithe isn't biblical. Reputation down the drain!

I have never sought personal recognition, veneration or glory. But I believe I am in good company.

Philippians 2:7 - but made Himself of no reputation,

KDK:
TV01,
I am pleased to see your responses especially the maturity in them.

Thank you, much appreciated.

lafile:
maybe we should get a definition of the term " Man of God" first before we get into more discussions. it seems we all have different definitions of the term.

That's an idea.
But in some ways this whole exercise is a mute point.

The current day usage of the term "MOG" is not an idea or a concept to be found in the scriptures. It's little more than Jargon.

It does however speak to underlying issues with church structure and the proper application of Biblical truths.

God bless

Hi Lafile,

Thanks for your kind words.

Truly the debate makes one evaluate and focus one's own position.

The true test of any doctrine is it's outworking. The Gospel of our Lord is not just in Word, it's in power.

There is only one God and there are only two sources of power. Authority (Not ultimately, or ownership) over The Kingdoms of this world is currently in lien to the enemy. To sit on any of it's thrones, you have to serve him or compromise your position, which is essentially the same thing.

If the elevation to a position of authority or influence comes by divine favour, it will be clear and apparent to all. The glory will be God's.

Civil agitation for worldly power? As a Christian it simply beggars belief.

Christian overcoming is by the blood, the word, the gospel. You change lives, then families, then communities, then countries. Go to the Bible for your patterns. Not the ways of the world.

I'd appreciate someone showing me something, illiustrating a scenario of Christians achieving political sway. How would it work?

The Bible narrative is very clear. Law doesn't avail to righteousness (which is the whole point of political power right? To be able to legislate!). And the "State" is a means of persecution to the saints. Either through their rebellion, or for their trying.

When the church joins forces or ally's with the world (state), it ceases to be the church. It's why the Pharisees never took Herod to task. They where yoked to the state and thus compromised John the Baptist was not and so did. It cost him his life. Religious affiliation with the state makes for a LovePeddler not a bride (they look the same, but true discernment will show thay are nothing like - see the book of Revelations for the end of spiritual whoredom -  let him who has ears).

Not only am I yet to be persuaded of the "Political Path", I see clear Biblical counsel against it.

But I remain ever willing to discuss.

God bless

Donzman:
Let church members deal with financial mismanagement in their church, it is none of EFCC's business. Church isn't a state institution and neither is it a public corporation,

Donzman is a lot closer to the mark than one might think.

The "True Church" is neither a State Institution, or a public corporation, and hence not "subject" to the state (Although it must not contravene the laws of the land, a properly functioning/structured church will never do so).

The crux is that (in the west anyway) most churches are usually (i) incorporated, or (ii) registered as charities, or (iii) simply run as businesses. Adopting one of these forms legally yokes the churches to the government and make them subject to it.

In Nigeria I don't believe such is the case. However, since many have been deceived and subscribe to the unbiblical notions of (i) the tithe, and (ii) the non-accountability of their so called MOGS {we give, what he/she does with it is between he/she and God}, abuse is rife, visibly so.

So back to Donzmans point, "The church members" are usually in no position to deal with financial mismanagement, as they are ignorant of the facts. About how to give, who to give to and what to give for, hence the rampant misappropriation of "church" funds. For the most part, they have been mis-sold the gospel, especially regards giving.

A fundamentally flawed structure gives rise to abuse. Get the understanding and format right and it would simply disappear or be much be much better managed when it did occur.

God bless

freaskie:
Please lets pray well and constantly for the 2007 election. It can make or mar this country of ours. Please as many christians as possible that can participate in politics in whatever level, should please do. We need Christians in the places of authorithy so as to enhance the kingdom in their own little or big way.

Delusion.

The numbers and facts do not bear out this scenario. It's essentially a pipe dream.

If there were enough Christians to make a political change, we would have already seen the effect in daily life. Christianity works from the grassroots upwards. Individuals, families, communities.

The populace force the change. And a country gets the government it deserves (and secretly longs for).

What is the % of truly committed Christians in Nigeria? That the vast majority of the populace are not believers, and many of those that claim to be are at best lukewarm. This is palpably evident by the sheer lawlessness that holds sway. Not just at every level of government, but in every sector and in every strata of society.

Righteousness exalts a nation, not Christian politics/politicians.

Dream on.

God bless

In the pejorative sense of the word "religion", they are all as bad as each other.

Legalistic traditions, flesh-driven inspiration and carnal man-made structures. You pays your money and you takes your choice. "Come out of her my people".

Must be said though, I think the "High Traditions" have much better kit. Funky ecclesiastical robes, Mitres and staffs, beat cheap suits and crap hair anyday.

In fact they've got better temples as well. Converted light industrial units have nothing on some of the grand old cathedrals. Not that God is in any of them!

"The righteousness that is through faith. From God in Christ Jesus"

God bless

God is Glorious, God is Great, God is Good!

Orinkinla your comments are noted. All postings are in love , but sometimes the loves got to be of the tough variety. Essential for proper edification and growth.

All is well, but you don't get off that lightly. Your punishment is as follows;

~ Attend Sunday school until the end of the year
~ Such attendance must be in short knicker
~ 10'000 lines of "I will no longer venerate or show partiality to men"
~ 10'000 lines of " All glory to the Most High, forever & ever. Amen"

And please, stop hanging out with kids from the Mogsbottom & Mogsnyash families, like Hymenaeus and Alexander, they can lead you astray!

God bless

Homework before Sunday !

1Corinthians 4:7 - For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

God bless

Ponder this as you make your way back to Sunday school  !

1 Corinthians 4:4 - For I know nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

2Corinthians 10:12 - For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

God bless

woleprof:
if you are abreast on the happening in the country,

The debate has moved on somewhat. It's not necessarily about the EFCC, but whether Church Organisations should be subject to the rule of law.