₦airaland Forum

donnie:
Its 10% of all your increase according to the bible; material substance or money.

According to the Bible?

Please show me.

Thank you.

Hi Consultant,

Read your post. Thank you. Read the scripture you suggested. Thanks again.

I'll respond, then comment and ask a few questions.

~ The deacons were appointed to ensure that distributions from the common purse were equitably made. The bible does not suggest they were paid staff.

~ The only two offices in the bible are elder and deacon. Simply because "Church" is about ministering to each other spiritually and physically.

Could you please explain, what are these other responsibilities you refer to? And why do they require paid staff,

Your "Pastor cannot do it all" comment. Could you please show me where in the Bible that a "pastor"
(singular) is supposed to head/run a church. Pointing me to a pastor's mandate in the Bible would suffice.


What I see is your reading the scripture to justify your church practice/tradition.

God bless

Seun/Admin,

Out of interest I browsed through the Islamic child board (and noted the stats). To be honest, I believe we adopt different ways of discussing and sharing our individual beliefs, and are best kept separate. It's pertinent to note that non- Christians were always welcome to post to the Christian child board.

Could you please take a poll on this? It would be the fairest way.

Thank you.

Hi Kajad,

Gotcha. I guess we are agreed on the unchanging nature and truth of God.

Christianity is a choice ~ True!

Church is a choice. Mmmmm!

My understanding is that when you repent towards God and have faith in Jesus Christ, you automatically become part of the body of Christ. The Ecclesia. So if you make a choice for Christianity, you instantly become part of the church as well.

So to me, church is not something you "go to" it's something "you are". The Bible says "Christ knows those who are His"

So wherever the disciples of Jesus Christ are gathered, there church is. I hope I am making myself clear.

Again I won't stray into church structure/functions, but if they (2 or more) meet in homes (as was the case in the early church), or anywhere else, all that is required to function as church is in the Bible.

Now, if men decide they want to build temples, install a priesthood, make sacrifices, have rules, regulations, constitutions bye laws, demand membership have peculiar doctrine, acquire a name and otherwise "differentiate" themselves, (i.e. make religion), who am I to stop them? But I certainly don't have to join them.

So, Christianity is a choice, church isn't, where and how you worship is.

God bless




But there is in fact only one Church. It has various appelations in scripture. But there is just one. So yes you can choose. You can literally choose from thousands of churches.

Mongue:
Religion has become a man made control system,

May I suggest that we ditch religion and opt for faith in God and His only begotten Son whom He has sent, Jesus Christ?

Peace

Changing world? - Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I do not change; The Truth of God stands sure!

Firstly, can I say that I don't think NaijaBabe did anything untoward. If the "pastor" was scripturally "out of bounds" I think it would be impolite not to ignore him.

Is there a scriptural/legal requirement to be married in church? Not that I know of!

Many churches these days operate as organisations with "membership" requirements, "constitutions" and the like. Personally I do not see a Biblical mandate for this, and hence do not subscribe to this type of practice. But if you choose to join/attend such an organisation, I suppose you would expect to abide by its rules?

Organisations that sell products operate in markets right? So to maximise satisfaction, consumers shop around.

You pays your money and you take your choice.

Hope I'm making some sense.

God bless

p.s - I'm not sure you should be so quick to obey her in the future. talk, discuss, pray and then make joint decisions. But in the event of an impasse, be tender, be loving, but be a husband.

Hi Bernard,

As God comes before family, and family before church, my advise is as follows;

Keep your faith in God, go get your wife and you can figure out the "church" thing afterwards.

Hope this helps.

May The Lord strengthen you and order your steps.

Hi Kajad,

Good question.

Lets start with scripture

Hebrews 13
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Matthew 23
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

1Peter 5
3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock

1Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Reading the above scriptures, are they contradictory? One says "submit to those who have the rule", another says "nor as being Lords" another says call no man "rabbi/father". One seems to suggest "man is headed by Christ" another seems to be saying headship is in the church.

Like all scriptural truths, reading and understanding must be balanced. "The whole counsel of God" on a matter.

My take is this.

Men head homes, in the knowledge that they are accountable to Christ. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, but in a church setting (as we are not discussing church structure, I won't touch on that!), to maintain order and for sound administration, certain people have roles and duties, giftings and callings and we should be in obedience to them.

So my answer to your question;

In church affairs we should submit to the elders/deacons for smooth running and progress. But if the outcome or the conduct is Biblically questionable, then question it, albeit in the right manner. I don't see that the Bible teaches ceding of your life's decision (who to marry, where to live, holiday destinations, tie/shirt combination ) to some "priestly" figure. Personal/family counsel is good, often required and may well be right. But it's just that counsel.

Going to church doesn't mean checking your mind/free will at the door. Just like in any well functioning family, it's good to talk.


Hope this help.

God bless

I reckon it's because many churches function as organisations.
And like all good organisations, they search for the best talent and
pay well to retain them!

Salaried pastors, admin staff, workers, pr budgets, legal teams,
hired guest speakers, worker training, air time, political activism.

It's called church Lord, but not as we know it!


God bless

Faith & experience talking!

We wanna weds would do well to take heed.

Thanks Sister Mikun.

Hi Welborn,

I appreciate your comments and I believe we are not so much talking at cross purposes, as airing differing perspectives. All healthy, I'm sure you'll agree. With that in mind, lets talk.

The thread asks "What it Takes". To me that suggests personal traits, character.
Am I wrong in stating that you correlate that to gifting, calling or title?

Balaam was a prophet - Was he a man of God?
Saul was a king - was he?
Ahitophel was an astute man, a wise counselor - Man of God would you say?

When did David qualify as a man of God? When he was anointed? when he ascended the throne maybe?
Or Samuel? (who literally started serving God as soon as he could tie his shoelaces & wipe his bottom!).

My point being that with maturity (and like you say time, experience, labour), come the qualities, but the heart always has to be there to make you a MOG.

One point of difference maybe (and I stand to be corrected) you are taking MOG to be synonymous with leader? I don't see that. Again, Saul was King while David was a novice, who was the MOG?

Re point 2 - no probs mate, I agree, but do you have to have a title or be somehow elevated to set an example? Hebrews 13:7, we could go deep here but let me ask you this, the "rule", how far does that extend?
To your choice of spouse? career? holiday destination? Scripture has to be balanced. It's in a church setting (I'm sure we'll talk models of church someday - . And the last part of that verse, surely that speaks to character? The whole of the Christian life is not church nor dictated by roles/positions in the church. In the pastoral epistles Paul says "If a man desires" That is to every male believer. Sir, God is not partial! It's about your walk!

Re point 3 - my take would be "only Christians who posses certain qualities can be elders. And any one suitably qualified can be one.

To be honest I can see now that I personally consider the term "leader" somewhat ill fitting. I know it's commonly used in some circles, but I don't see it pop up much in scripture. I think it gives a functional feel to Christianity as opposed to the relational ethos that I see clearly portrayed. The terms elder/bishop/pastor/shepherd are all the same, and merely denote different facets of the same role. Perhaps my take is more teaching/protecting/nurturing/modelling, which is what I believe to be NT Christianity.

It good talking, it's helped me consider some of my own views a little more deeply. Sorry for rambling and being unable to append scriptural references, but I see you are well versed. Please upbraid me if I've misquoted.

God bless

Jagunlabi,

So we have an understanding of sorts.

Only you limit it to Catholicism, but I see it clearly in all denomination/institutional Christianity.

But any similarity ends there.
That has not dissuaded me from the truth of God as contained in the Holy Bible.
As I clearly stated all this is clearly foretold within scripture.

I think we differ in thats I remain a "Christian Apologist" (as opposed to a Catholic, Anglican or Pentecostal apologist), whereas you see the error of denominationalism, misread it as fallibility/inconsistency on the Bible's part and have become an ardent critic of the "One true God and of His Christ".

Jagunlabi, take my advise and save your breath, otherwise you will proceed the way of all the others. But God is mercifull, maybe you'll go the way of Saul.


God bless

Jagunlabi,

Scripturally, submission does not mean "weak & timid", just like "authority" does not imply brutal & oppressive.

Biblical submission is not "carte blanche" to do whatever.

True Biblical love does not "misbehave". But don't take my word for it;

I Corinthians 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails.

But something tells me you are not interested in Biblical truth are you sir?

God bless

Jagunlabi, I'll be as clear as I can.

All traditional/denominational forms of institutionalised Christianity are corrupt.

Syncrteism (religious smoothing/mixing), is just one of the ways corruption has occurred.

So, does that make Catholicism pagan?
Yes. And all the other traditionans are queuing up behind her.

My point is, that does not make the God of the Bible or the Truth of the Bible any less valid!

It is all clearly forseen in the Bible.
So you can reject/criticize tradition, but not pure Biblical Christianity.

So sir, are you a seeker or a stirrer?

God bless

Note, Also posted in Church Saturday or Sunday?[b][/b]

Church is not something you "go to", church is something "you are". Wherever the called out ones gather or meet is church. So if two (or three) happen to meet at a bus stop, the gym or at the supermarked and exhortation, edification and comforting (worship even!) take place, guess what? church just happened.

Acts 2:46 - So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

Acts 2:47 - praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Acts 5:42 - And daily in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

Acts 16:5 - So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Church is everday and everywhere. It's without walls.

Be Church!

God bless

Hi Welborn,

Well said.

Maybe we should retract a little. A few questions;

1. What is the point of or the need for the MOG (as a matter of decorum I'll omit the female acronym )
2. How is the MOG to be different from other believers?

There's a hint in this thread of people searching for someone to look up to?. What for?
Hence my comment in an earlier post about The Lord being fully man. Look up to Him.

Let me be a little clearer. One of the things done away with when the Lord died was the "mediatory priesthood". Everyone can now approach God through Christ Jesus for themselves.

The whole point of the Christian walk is too mature in Christ.
No dichotomy, but a difference, being one of "maturity of walk".

These so called MOG qualities are fruit to be bourne by all believes., hence my "by their fruit" comment in an earlier post.

The MOG concept is just a man-made tradition. Which exist in all Christian religious traditions in one guise or another.

As for miracles, John performed no signs (John 10:41). But Judas obviously did!

In a lot of "Churches", they point to a Set Man, Prophet, Apostle, Pastor or whatever, and declare him to be a man of God. So one last question then, what does that make all the other men in attendance?

God bless

Jagunlabi, You've made a good point. But not a new one.

Corporate Christianity is patently unscriptural, But that does not make the God of the Bible a liar.

Romans 3:4 - Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged."

Men have always corrupted simple faith with tradition. The Catholic church has just had more time than all the other denominations.

Elbaron, I know you are about exposing the Catholic church, but it's a bit of a mute point. Everything you've detailed is common knowledge, and exists in all denominations to lesser, greater, or differing degrees.

Coming to the realisation that institutionalised Christianity (religion) is not the way to seek God is a realisation that all lovers of truth will have dawn on them.

God knows all about the various -isms (from Catholicism to Pentecostalism) and believe me they have a part to play in the unfolding purpose of God.

If however, your realisation that institutionalised church is bogus makes you to reject and criticise God, all you have done is ask the right question, but come up with the wrong answer. Right conclusion, wrong action.

What you should do is yearn and seek for God's Truth.

So may I ask both Elbaron and JagunLabi, what point are you both attempting to make? What's your purpose?
If you are just critical of, or reject the Christian faith, simply say so.

Lets keep this current and relevent.

God bless all who love the Lord Jesus Christ in truth!

You are right TY, I guess I was being a little facetious.

More pertinent though, doesn't it say something about how we view our faith it we think of certain people as men or women of God. Aren't we just introducing a dichotomy that is no where found in scripture, although very much alive in church tradition. It's called the clergy and laity split. The call to walk in His footsteps is for everyone.

We are all priests now aren't we?

1Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

And if we are looking for a man (or woman), isn't that why He was fully man and fully God?

I have had just a glimpse of the Lord and since then, men (or women) just don't do it for me anymore.

God bless

Church is not something you "go to", church is something "you are". Wherever the called out ones gather or meet is church. So if two (or three) happen to meet at a bus stop, the gym or at the supermarked and exhortation, edification and comforting (worship even!) take place, guess what? church just happened.

Acts 2:46 - So continuing daily[/b] with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

Acts 2:47 - praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily[b] those who were being saved.

Acts 5:42 - And daily[/b] in the temple, and in every house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

Acts 16:5 - So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily[b].

Church is everday and everywhere. It's without walls.

Be Church!

God bless

Jagunlabi I'm not sure if your last response was directed personally to Wellborn or to Christians in general, but not everyone celebrates December 25th or other such days.

As for the "Gbosa" you claim to have/know. Christianity has over the centuries withstood scrutiny, criticism, attack and brutal persecution. Please take your best shot. You won't come up with anything new or interesting.

On a personal note, if you are truly seeking the God of heaven there's a lot of stuff you may have to wade through, but you will get there by His grace. But note I said truly. If your aim is to pillory Christianity (and deny God in Christ Jesus), hear this; God has provided everything for those that don't want to believe Him will need.

God bless

I think Jagunlabi's statement in his earlier post hits it head on.

jagunlabi:
The mainstream authodox christiandom as it stands today was built on what the romans formed into a universal christianity that is now known as catholicism.
So if we should start doubting the validity of catholics as true christians,then we might as well start doubting the entire mainstream christiandom with all it's diverse variants,which will also include protestants,and all the entire african churches in their diverse forms,because they are all based on catholic dogma and doctrine.

True seekers of Gods truth, true followers of Christ have to ask themselves, what do the scriptures reveal about the strains of Christianity (and I use that term advisedly ) being practised today?

And to answer the ensuing question;

jagunlabi:
What is pure christianity,anyway?Does it exist in this era of ours?

Pure Christianity is clearly revealed in the Holy Scriptures. And yes it does exist today, but there are only "few that find it". It's not the billion strong Catholic faithful, or the hundreds of millions in Protestant traditions (although some seekers may start or pass through forms of institutionalised Christianity).

I'll say this, if you truly seek the truth, at some stage the truth will find you.

(And no, I don't consider myself to have apprehended).

God bless.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers,

I guess that time is here!

Structure and doctrine are so important to proper Christian living. Once either of these two are fundamentally wrong, the other also gets corrupted. Add a lack of discernment to the mix and all types of erroneous spiritual and secular practices become acceptable.

Lets arm ourselves with the undiluted, unchanging Truth of God's Word.

Peace.

A lady I work with literally lives her life by the horoscope section of her daily paper.

So what one may ask? Lots of people check their horoscopes, in newspapers, magazines or online. Obviously as a follower of Christ I know that this is scripturally prohibited. I also know it can be dangerous. Obviously I wonder how can anyone be so simplistic?

Someone goes to a source (or maybe makes it up?) and utters some vague predictions aimed at a lot of people. Who would believe that? I can't help but wonder, how simple/easily deceived some people can be!

The other day she won £10.00 on the lottery and said "my horoscope was right, it said to expect financial fortune today". I suppose if she met someone new or went out on a date, she'd attest to the "romance is in the air" prediction from her newspaper.

"Tell her about Christ" I thought to myself. How He has facilitated a one-to-one relationship with God the Father. I don't need some go-between to visit an oracle and report back to me (and as one of hundreds, thousands or even millions of others - duh?).

I can go to God and tell Him about specific personal things that I need or desire, things I don't understand, or just for comfort. A relationship with the Creator of everything, without recourse to a 3rd party. How divine is that!

But then she's a heathen right? Let look at how "proper believers" do it.

A "man of God" (MOG) goes to his source? comes back and utters some vague predictions aimed at a lot of people usually along the lines of "Its the year of success/breakthrough/favour etc, etc. and cautions his listeners to pray a lot!

A few months later someone who was waiting for a baby/spuse/job/home etc, etc, gives a testimony. The word came from the MOG, so I prayed and fasted. And look, my baby/spouse/job/home has come. Truly as the MOG prophesied, it is the year of success/breakthrough/favour etc, etc. I believed the MOG and the word of God came to pass in my life.

Could someone please explain the difference!

One pays 30p a day.
The other pays 10% of gross income.

No prizes for guessing who got the better deal.

God bless

Hi Donnie,

Saw your post. No offense intended, but you are mistaken. The scripture clearly shows that Abraham paid cash money for a tomb in which to lay his wife Sarah top rest.

Genesis 23:16 And Abraham listened to Ephron; and Abraham weighed out the silver for Ephron which he had named in the hearing of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, currency of the merchants. 17 So the field of Ephron which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field and the cave which was in it, and all the trees that were in the field, which were within all the surrounding borders, were deeded 18 to Abraham as a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth, before all who went in at the gate of his city. 19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan. 20 So the field and the cave that is in it were deeded to Abraham by the sons of Heth as property for a burial place.

If that is not evidence enough, read the law as received by Moses.

Deuteronomy 14:22 "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

The tithe was never money, and tithing is not a Christian practice.

But please don't believe me, believe God for therein is righteousness.

God bless

Hi Lioness,

You raised some pertinent questions in your post. That true believers would ponder them and follow to the logical conclusion. The true church is not named (Just like our the moon, theres just the one so we didn't bother naming it!). The spirit that fosters denominationalism is that same spirit behind tribalism, racism, apartheid sectarianism etc. etc. Hear Paul;

1 Corinthians 1:10 ~ Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The denominationalism that is rampant today is that same issue left unchecked. If you are following the "Man/Woman of God", the prophet or the apostle, the GO or any such like, you may not be following Christ.
What you see is evidence of walking after the flesh and not the spirit (Galatians 5:19-20).

Catholics are Catholics,
Anglicans are Anglicans
Pentecostals are Pentecostals
Mormons are Mormons (and repeat ad infinitum for all denominations/traditions)
Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ are Christians, pure and simple.

Posts regards denominational differences/superiority are by defenders of tradition. Real Christians are Christian apologists. What I am hearing are Catholic apologists, Protestant apologists (repeat as before).

As much as the charges raised against Catholicism are valid (and I believe they are), the same charges too varying or in differing degrees can be legitimately raised against all denominations.

And yes Lioness you are right, the enemy's hand is in this.
But never fear "The Lord knows those who are His"
Take His Word for it "come out of her My people"

God bless

Tithing is absolutely not a Christian concept!

And here's why (a bit long but worth the read).


Tithing under the New Covenant, really?

Let me start by unequivocally stating what I believe to be the Biblical position.

There are only 2 reasons to preach tithing
1. Incomplete understanding of the scriptures (or tradition!).
2. Or quite simply to fleece the flock of God.

Or to put it another way;
1. Not properly understanding God in this respect.
2. Not fully understanding what God has done for us in Christ Jesus.

The tithe is taught almost universally (in the Pentecostal tradition at least), and is very much accepted orthodoxy (and Pentecostalism, whether you accept it or not has become a denominational orthodoxy, just like all others). But what do the scriptures really say about the tithe?

The word tithe, tithes or tithing occurs 43 times in the Bible (NKJV), in 36 different verses. 35 times in the Old Testament and 8 times in the new. One fewer in the KJV but in all the same places. The word “tenth” is also used to refer to the tithe on eight occasions. Six times in the 36 verses above, and twice when God uttered the curse of Kingship on the Israelites for rejecting Him (quite interesting this, and so very relevant to the current model of church ~ 1 Samuel chapter .

The very first instance is in Genesis 14,
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all. 21 Now the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap, and that I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich'-- 24 except only what the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who went with me: Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion."

Abram having returned from the original gulf war (Please note this was an act of self-defence. To recover loved one’s and possessions. Christians never initiate wars, full stop) gave a tithe of the SPOILS (Hebrews 7:4 confirms this)!!!! To Melchizedek, priest of God most high. It is worth noting here that the remaining 90% of the loot (less provisions) went to the King of Sodom! There is no further record of Abraham ever tithing his income or his assets. And God blessed Him richly.


Now on to Jacob in Genesis 28
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

Verse 20 clearly shows that Jacob took the initiative; the Lord did not command it. It is also worth noting that there was at that time no law, no prescribed form of worship or priests (more about priesthood later) to pay the tithe too. The only way to satisfy that vow would be to minister to the poor. Your vows are between you and God. Also noteworthy is that history shows that tithing actually pre-dates the Israelite nation. In fact, it’s still practised in various forms in certain economies. In at least one Islamic sect, and by Organised Crime - only they call it protection money.

Next up Leviticus 27 (and this is where it starts to get interesting!).
30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord. 31 If a man wants at all to redeem any of his tithes, he shall add one-fifth to it. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord. 33 He shall not inquire whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; and if he exchanges it at all, then both it and the one exchanged for it shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. 34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Tithe was only ever paid on produce and livestock ~ never MONETARY INCOME!!!

Why? Because it was for a threefold purpose;
1. To feed the Levite and Priests (the house of Aaron) who were not given an inheritance amongst the tribes of Israel (said inheritance being LAND)
2. Welfare, for the fatherless, widows and orphans and hospitality (for the stranger in the land)
3. Feasting. (Yes feasting, not that impoverished monthly ritual we call communion!)

Note also that it was the tenth one (verse 33), not the first one that was counted. So that would indicate that those with an increase of less than ten would not be required to tithe. That it was part of the law is clearly signified in verse 34 (more on that later).

By the time you get to Deuteronomy 12 the feasting element of tithing is clearly outlined. I’ll reproduce some parts here, but please read it in full.

5 But you shall seek the place where the Lord your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6 There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you have put your hand, you and your households, in which the Lord your God has blessed you………11 then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord. 12 And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you.

On to Deuteronomy 14 and again its a corporeal (not corporate, as we are a body not an institution!) love feast! I’ll reproduce some parts here, but please be sure to read it in full.

22 "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you. 28 "At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Here we can see that if the celebration venue was to far away one could take money in place of produce/livestock with which to purchase food and drink (of their choice) at the venue. This should also serve to dispel the notion that the tithe was only on produce and livestock because it was a cashless society. There was just one stipulation, being to remember the Levite, the stranger and the poor. Please note the 3-yearly command in verse 28.

This is repeated in Deuteronomy 26.
12 "When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the Lord your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.

All other Old Testament references to tithing are merely to mention that it was an ongoing obligation under the law and to note when the Jews did or did not uphold it. This includes the much-abused Malachi 3:8–10. Reading the whole of the book of Malachi, shows clearly that the people had turned from God. Where covenant breakers, and generally acting in an ungodly fashion. Chapter 3 verse 10 shows there was no food in His house (the Temple). This meant that the Levites had to look for other means to sustain themselves, leading to a neglect of their priestly ministry. Just as grievous in God’s sight would have been the lack of succour given to the poor. Simple. It was written to the Israelites (verse 9) who were under the law of Moses. It was not written to believers today who are quite clearly not under the law, but under grace (or are you?).

Now lets have a look at the New Testament, which has 8 occurrences.
Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

The above two verses are essentially the same from the synoptic gospels of Matthew & Luke. Being addressed here are the Pharisees and scribes, who at the time were under the Law. Once again the tithe is identified as very much a part of the law. Again note the reference to herbs (produce!).

The third time is in Luke 18.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other……….

Here a Pharisees lame attempt at self-righteousness is exposed as not good enough. Why?
Because it’s law, it’s merely outward religion, self-justification and is not the outward working of a true change of heart. Galatians 2:6 ~ knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

And finally
Hebrews 7 verses 5 – 9 contain five of the 8 new testament references to the tithe.
5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

This passage of scripture neatly ties together the Levitical priesthoods receipt of the tithe as part of the law. Reading on………,

…….11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law…, 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Said Levitical priesthood, has now being done away with and the law subsequently changed (abolished, nailed to the cross). The epistle was written specifically to new Hebrew converts to Christianity. The main thrust was to expound the superiority of the new covenant of grace over the old covenant of the law.

But what about Matthew 5:17 you say? "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. The Lord fulfilled the law by living it perfectly! He was born under, lived and fully satisfied every ordinance of the law (Luke 2:21-24). Fulfilling in this instance meant to satisfy, not to restore, as is commonly preached. The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist (Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16). Jesus came and died without sin to free us from the Law (Galatians 4:4-5), by abolishing it (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14). But He rose again (Is glorified and sat at the right hand of the Majesty on high)! Alleluia! Ushering in the new dispensation of grace. Blessed be God.

So there is no tithe for two essential reasons;
1. We are not under the law
2. There is no longer a Levitical priesthood (but those pesky Pharisees won’t quit!)

All this begs further questions. But then truth always does. I chose this as a starting point because this is how it unfolded for me. There’s more, but for now, let me leave you with this;

Matthew 17:24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free………

Peace.

Hi All,

This thread is so true and so relevent. I can't believe it kind of died a death without a lot more discussion and comment. I agree with everything written so far.

Before I left the institutional church/organised religion, I was so saddened, at what passed (or had effectively replaced) bold, expository preaching of Gods Word, to proclaim Christ under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

We'd have "guest speakers", who would at best start by quoting one totally unconnected Bible verse and then go on to talk about a whole host of aspirational, lifestyle topics, that had nothing to do with the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, or the kingdom of God.

And yes, they'd go endlessly on about the excellent things and the high achievers in the world, holding them up as role models and examples. People would be hyped and excited. Everyone would go on about how great the message was (and the "Speaker"). But I never saw lives transformed. There was no real power.

It was'nt hard to see that true Biblical discernment is a big , big issue.

One thing I will say though, it's not killing Christianity. Because the truth is, its another gospel. You know the rest.

God bless

TVO1

Hi choice.A,

At first glance I'd say;

A man of God is a male person that loves God.
A person that loves God keeps His commandments.

Having read some of your posts and digging a little deeper I'd say;

The whole "Man of God" thing is just another man made tradition (denominational jargon).
The apostle Paul used the phrase once to encourage Timothy. That would suggest a more mature Christian encpouraging a less mature Christian.
MOG is vying with "Pastor" as the most overworked and missapplied term in certain religious circles
By their fruits,
End of.

Hi everyone,

This is my first post, I hope I'm not joining this thread to late?

Catholics are Catholics,
Anglicans are Anglicans (or Episcopalians!),
Baptists are Baptists,
Mormons are Mormons
Pentecostals are Pentecostals (and repeat for every tradition/denomination)
Followers/Disciples  of The Lord Jesus Christ are Christians.

What do I mean?
Essentially that the questions raised about Catholicism, as much as they are valid (and I agree that they are) apply to every tradition/denomination that claims to be Christian.

The very first thing the Apostle Paul deals with in the letter to the Corinthians is sectarianism.
Its one of the most insidious of spirits. A many headed beast. Other heads include tribalism, racism, denominationalism and the like.

Scrutinise the practices and traditions of any denomination against the clear reading of scripture and the only real question is the degree of departure. Matthew 23 anyone?

The voice of one is pleased to be here, and I anticipates enjoying and learning even more from the discourse now that I am a participant and not just an observer.

God bless
TVO1