₦airaland Forum

Hi Welborn,

Thank you very much for you encouragement and for taking the time to pen a response.

I mentioned earlier that maybe we need to talk church models/structure, but maybe we need to go ab initio, and explain what we mean by church.

Is church something you "go to"? or something "you are"? Repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ places you in the body and hence the church.

At no time did I say I do not assemble or fellowship with other believers. Neither have I forsaken collective worship, the breaking of bread or ministering.

Assembling is not a question of numbers, 2 or 3 satisfies.
Fellowship is primarily with The Father and His Son Jesus Christ - 1 John 1:3.

"Enoch walked with God".

Feel free to ask specifics about my walk, it will mean we can dialogue without having too rebut incorrect assumptions. It's why I always wait for you to state your position or ask before I respond with regards to mine.

I can see you feel I "withdrew" from church, no sir, I didn't, I was led out, kicking and screaming.

As thick as I was, I couldn't see and refused to believe that was how God was leading me. It went completely against everything I understood. But I know I am right where God wants me to be.

And no, I am not looking for the perfect assembly, but neither do I believe that every gathering that labels itself church or mentions the Lords name is necessarily the body of Christ.

So, let me ask you two things
1. What tradition/model do you worship in?
2. Are we transgressing? We appear to be a little off the topic of this thread.

Talk soon

God bless

Is it wrong?
What kind of question is that?

My dear, it's absolutely essential.
It's the only real imperative in marriage.
In fact, it I'm personally surprised it's not on the statute books.

I think it's plain rude of blokes to consider marrying a girl without having made a couple of mill' at the least (and to have gained a measure of celebrity)!

Why should a girl have too waste her precious time with some middle income earner with a good heart, or even worse, a "decent guy" who doesn't have two pennies to rub together? Timewasters!

And the source of the riches needn't be a worry. Criminal background dodgy past, shady political dealing, those should not bother a serious minded girl with her heart set on marriage.

Physical considerations are for the immature. Halitosis, wasting disease, terminal illness whatever (in fact in certain cases this may actually be advantageous!  ). As long as his "signing"hand is in perfect working order.

I'm sure if we look hard enough we can find scriptural backing for this!

ABOUT ME![color=#000099][/color]
I'm as rich as Croesus, and extremely generous with my money. I also have extremely low expectations of any potential wife!

Which of my customised private jets/stretch limo's would you like me to send for you?

Hurry, before the other gold-diggers, I mean properly raised, well cultured, highly educated and accomplished young ladies on this forum make a beeline for me!


Can't wait babe!

Richie "LoverBoy" Rich


ps ~ if when we meet, you don't like me, I won't let you go to the trouble of manipulating me down the aisle, enduring a short unhappy marriage and a painful drawn out divorce. Just let me know and I'll hand over half my stupendous wealth after the first date! Hopefully we can "close" before the easter break is over.


Admin - Please get a shakin' head smiley up in here, save me writing - Thank you!

Hi Consultant (How long before you pick up the tag "Connie"? )

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

You got me right.
Questions/issues as too both structure & doctrine. Since they are to a large degree entwined, error in one will have to be mirrored by error in the other.

For me plurality goes with equality, although they may have different callings/gifts. It bothers me in as much as I see departure from scripture cause Christendom unnecessary problems.

I won't bore you here with my trouble with that word "leader". Yes, Peter was obviously senior, but I believe James was more of a presence amongst the believers in Jerusalem, while Peter himself acknowledged the depth of the revelation given to Paul.

Have a good one.

God bless.

Hi Zahymaka,

True.
Christian history is has in the past been bloody. But the Christian faith has never been. The Bible has been used to justify slavery, racism and wars, but it does not do that.

If one apostasises from Christianity, they are not considered enemies, just no longer Christians, which is ostensibly what they want and why they left ? No injunctions, no penalties.

"Wage war against your enemies". There are wars in the Bible, but no where in NT Christianity are Christians asked to make way. In fact we are enjoined to love/bless those who hate us. So even in this day and age I have heard people claiming to be Christians call for war. Anyone can adopt any label they desire, but a commitment to Christ is evidenced by your actions/fruit.

The Bible can be read literally, allegorically, prophetically (and a few other ways besides), but the truth of the Bible always harmonises.


Hope this helps.

God bless

Naijababe,

I hear you.
But the reformation has been in terms of how Xtians practice their faith. The truth has not changed. Greater enlightenment, freedom and access means more people can engage in a more direct way. Even today there are some dodgy practices in Xtianity.

Not being an expert on the Islam, I can't really comment, but doesn't that beg the question "how closely to the Koran do Muslims believe they are adhering"?


God bless

ps would you consider someone in the Se your neighbour?

Hi Papa,

Thanks for the response.
I take it the "young man" comment was intended in good humour. Would you be referring to my physical or spiritual age (I can see how pious you are!).

You can post as many references to justify it as you please. It was simply wrong.

Please feel free to continue your defense of bankrupt tradition and indulgent religiosity.


God bless

Hi Papa,

You are quite simply defending the indefensible.

I am not holding brief for Consultant here (we have differing views on some things and I note that the tithe is yet another one )

Firstly your emphasis on the "outward appearance". God can use whomsoever He pleases, and scripture makes it clear that it can be the foolish, weak, base or despised. "Tattered" looking is an issue is it? How about Peter saying "Silver & Gold have I non?" Or Paul being, weak in his physical presence and contemptible in speech. He was often ill and suffered lack?

"Honour the Lord". So when did we start to equate men with the Lord?

Your attempt to justify the amount by the length of time and numbers donating is at best lame. It was about the purpose and the amount.

Yes, and by all means, please esteem those who "labour among you in the Word", and "share in all good things with them". But if he is being paid (a whole other discussion ), is he not being honoured?

"Lack of Knowledge". That's an oxymoron. The Bible says "We know in part" it also says "Knowledge puffs up". I guess there's growth yet for us all huh?

I don't believe the state has any business in Church affairs (yet another thread ), but if you choose to subject yourself to the state, should you not comply with the law?

Please do not be offending, that I haven't been able to append chapters and verses on my post. I appreciate your thoughts sir, but I'm not with you on this one.

God bless

Dear Seun,

I sense a groundswell of opinion from the Christians on this one.
In fact I almost said "we are up in arms" (but that's not the Christian way).

So, I throw my lot in with those who would like to the Christian child board re-instated.

I also second what will undoubtedly go down in NairaLand folklore as the "Charlisco motion"
(no motions puns intended )

yours in Christ

Hi Consultant,

In as much as we are trying to air our differing views on the issue, I think these are both informed by differing perspectives/approaches to our common faith.

We could spend forever making points without really understanding each other, and be non the wiser.

So for example, your comment "likening Apostles to present day pastors" does not resonate with my understanding. I personally do not see what you may call the "job spec" of modern day pastors in scripture (neither do I know precisely how it operates in your particular congregation). I see "plurality of elders".

I think we'd all be best served if we talked fundamentals more, as then we would clearly understand the basis for our differing takes.

I appreciate you comments and thanks for taking the time to reply.

God bless

Oops, apologies for the double post. Please ignore the first one.

I am not against tithing because of the greed of "men of God".
I am not even against tithing per se.
I am against tithing that is enforced/preached as scripturally mandated, and used to bind people.

Christians give. Full stop.

One last thing, whatever our differing perspectives/opinions on the term "man of God", can you really qualify it with the "greed"?

It's good to talk

God bless

Hi Kenshin,

kenshin:
TVO1 Read malachi 3:8-11,

As suggested, I read the noted scripture. Thank you. Your point being?

kenshin:
And please get something paying tithe is your choice just as serving God is a choice you make however if you do it you get blessed and if you don't then well, you remain the same.

I agree with the fact that paying tithe and serving God are both choices.
However, I don't confuse the two.

God does not mandate tithe paying, neither is it a scriptural imperative.
If people join a particular church tradition and insist on tithing, I have no problem with that.
I simply do not agree with people who preach it as a biblical command and  attach a curse to non compliance.

Remain blessed

Hi Kenshin,

Please see following post.

No probs sister baby4u2, In your own time.Webchat never ends,

Baby4U2/Welborn,

I agree absolutely with the last post.

But "Give to get"? Is "God supplying all our need" predicated on us giving to Him first?
What about the very poor? What about those who bless/help in other ways??
Say I give time, what do I get in return?

Shouldn't that be "give to bless" or "give to honour"

"Give to get" too me has prosperity gospel writtern all over it.

God bless

When I say non-denominational. That is as plain as I can state it.
I actually do not have a"church" that I am a member of, neither a group that I belong too.
It really is just me.

So I can see what you are alluding to when you say "inform my outlook", but truly my outlook is not formed by association (although I do have a denominational background). It's primarily The Word & I(and I trust The Holy Spirit).

Likewise, I fellowship with anyone who wants to share the word (on a relational basis), and I find that my non-denominational appraoch makes this easier (although people often try and convince me of the superiority of their tradition/church branch/"pastor" So right now I don't actually have anyone I could actually separate from! (Maybe one day we'll talk church model/structure).

One of my points all along has been that I don't take umbrage at the teaching of individual traditions, because truth and error are clearly evident in them all. So I see inter-denominational squabbling as kind of like a "log & speck" or "sin & stone" situation. And just plain confusing.

I test all things by God's grace and hold fast. But I am by no means certain on every position. But I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, as I am open to be led by The Spirit of God, which I believe is the whole point. Being in a denomination would by it's nature make me bound to certain traditions whatever I personally believe.

I choose liberty in Christ. So when I say non-denominational, I really mean that. Maybe the term should be extra-denominational? Actually no, that would probably become another tradition in itself.

So I have no need to reference myself against others, as I see myself as a "maturing Christian", not better or worse than anyone else.

Thank you for your kind words. And no, you have not been unambiguous. I see that we have slightly differing perspectives (I won't hazard a guess at yours, as I'm sure we'll talk more), but I'm sure God works in and leads each of us in a unique way.

Stay committed sir.

God bless

baby4u2:
couldnt help but write again.
my money was given to me by God, so i give a little portion back to get an even greater portion.

Could you please explain how this works? It sounds like a sure fire investment.
Only my job sucks and I'd really like to take early retirement.

Thank you

I am prophesying tirade from the resident "denominational apologists" and "MOG mouthpieces"

welborn:
we are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:26)

Your quote above is my point. Which is that, faith is Jesus Christ is what makes one a Christian.

By it's very nature denominationalism demands something extra. It has a tendency to to defend certain cherished positions, and often leads to an unbalanced view of scripture or additions (tradition). This invariably leads to disunity and squabbling.

Which is why certain denominations are not considered truly Christian by others. Since I personally do not belong to any denomination, I wonder how I would be viewed by them?

Believe me, attempting to prove my previously held sectarian beliefs against scripture, humbled me and led me out of the denominational approach to Christianity. It's quite clear that there is truth in all and error in all, but the very real danger is the error will lead to spiritual harlotry. Hence my emphasis on just being Christian and not taking positions against any one denomination.

I hope this clarifies things. (But I'm sure you'll let me know if it doesn't  ).

God bless dude

welborn:
"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back." That was made by an "educated Judge" at the impending trial of a Muslim convert in Afghanistan - [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4841334.stm]see here

I have a question, which kind of follows on from Welborns post.

I understand Afghani law is based on the Sharia code. I have not heard anyone say that the death penalty for apostasy from Islam (and in light of developments in the case, may I add "of a sound mind" is is a mis-interpretation of said law/code.

In light of this, could someone please advise the penalty for non-Muslims who refuse to convert.

Thanks

welborn:
If Christians (of whatever label - Protestant, etc)

Christians don't have labels. They are just that Christians. No qualification required.

Catholics are Catholics
Anglicans are Anglicans
Mormons are Mormons
Pentecostals are Pentecostals (& repeat ad infinitum for all traditions/denominations)

I have no problem with debate between "denominational apologists" (or even those that expend their energy championing various MOG's), but please leave us Christians out of it!

Thank you & God bless

kenshin:
Tithing is a means of defence from the devourer,

No it is not!
Or should I say, please refer me to the relevant scriptures to support that statement!

A Christian walks in covenant with God, eschews evil and the evil one stays away.

1John 5:18 - We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

If you think a little about your original post, it is little more than reformed "babalawoism". Not to mention that it smacks of  indulgent self-righteousness.

Feel free to tithe all you please. But don't blaspheme by saying God demands it or scripture instructs it. Tithing is quite simply not a Christian imperative.

God bless

donnie:
Its 10% of all your increase according to the bible; material substance or money.

According to the Bible?

Please show me.

Thank you.

Hi Consultant,

Read your post. Thank you. Read the scripture you suggested. Thanks again.

I'll respond, then comment and ask a few questions.

~ The deacons were appointed to ensure that distributions from the common purse were equitably made. The bible does not suggest they were paid staff.

~ The only two offices in the bible are elder and deacon. Simply because "Church" is about ministering to each other spiritually and physically.

Could you please explain, what are these other responsibilities you refer to? And why do they require paid staff,

Your "Pastor cannot do it all" comment. Could you please show me where in the Bible that a "pastor"
(singular) is supposed to head/run a church. Pointing me to a pastor's mandate in the Bible would suffice.


What I see is your reading the scripture to justify your church practice/tradition.

God bless

Seun/Admin,

Out of interest I browsed through the Islamic child board (and noted the stats). To be honest, I believe we adopt different ways of discussing and sharing our individual beliefs, and are best kept separate. It's pertinent to note that non- Christians were always welcome to post to the Christian child board.

Could you please take a poll on this? It would be the fairest way.

Thank you.

Hi Kajad,

Gotcha. I guess we are agreed on the unchanging nature and truth of God.

Christianity is a choice ~ True!

Church is a choice. Mmmmm!

My understanding is that when you repent towards God and have faith in Jesus Christ, you automatically become part of the body of Christ. The Ecclesia. So if you make a choice for Christianity, you instantly become part of the church as well.

So to me, church is not something you "go to" it's something "you are". The Bible says "Christ knows those who are His"

So wherever the disciples of Jesus Christ are gathered, there church is. I hope I am making myself clear.

Again I won't stray into church structure/functions, but if they (2 or more) meet in homes (as was the case in the early church), or anywhere else, all that is required to function as church is in the Bible.

Now, if men decide they want to build temples, install a priesthood, make sacrifices, have rules, regulations, constitutions bye laws, demand membership have peculiar doctrine, acquire a name and otherwise "differentiate" themselves, (i.e. make religion), who am I to stop them? But I certainly don't have to join them.

So, Christianity is a choice, church isn't, where and how you worship is.

God bless




But there is in fact only one Church. It has various appelations in scripture. But there is just one. So yes you can choose. You can literally choose from thousands of churches.

Mongue:
Religion has become a man made control system,

May I suggest that we ditch religion and opt for faith in God and His only begotten Son whom He has sent, Jesus Christ?

Peace

Changing world? - Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I do not change; The Truth of God stands sure!

Firstly, can I say that I don't think NaijaBabe did anything untoward. If the "pastor" was scripturally "out of bounds" I think it would be impolite not to ignore him.

Is there a scriptural/legal requirement to be married in church? Not that I know of!

Many churches these days operate as organisations with "membership" requirements, "constitutions" and the like. Personally I do not see a Biblical mandate for this, and hence do not subscribe to this type of practice. But if you choose to join/attend such an organisation, I suppose you would expect to abide by its rules?

Organisations that sell products operate in markets right? So to maximise satisfaction, consumers shop around.

You pays your money and you take your choice.

Hope I'm making some sense.

God bless

p.s - I'm not sure you should be so quick to obey her in the future. talk, discuss, pray and then make joint decisions. But in the event of an impasse, be tender, be loving, but be a husband.

Hi Bernard,

As God comes before family, and family before church, my advise is as follows;

Keep your faith in God, go get your wife and you can figure out the "church" thing afterwards.

Hope this helps.

May The Lord strengthen you and order your steps.

Hi Kajad,

Good question.

Lets start with scripture

Hebrews 13
7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Matthew 23
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

1Peter 5
3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock

1Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Reading the above scriptures, are they contradictory? One says "submit to those who have the rule", another says "nor as being Lords" another says call no man "rabbi/father". One seems to suggest "man is headed by Christ" another seems to be saying headship is in the church.

Like all scriptural truths, reading and understanding must be balanced. "The whole counsel of God" on a matter.

My take is this.

Men head homes, in the knowledge that they are accountable to Christ. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, but in a church setting (as we are not discussing church structure, I won't touch on that!), to maintain order and for sound administration, certain people have roles and duties, giftings and callings and we should be in obedience to them.

So my answer to your question;

In church affairs we should submit to the elders/deacons for smooth running and progress. But if the outcome or the conduct is Biblically questionable, then question it, albeit in the right manner. I don't see that the Bible teaches ceding of your life's decision (who to marry, where to live, holiday destinations, tie/shirt combination ) to some "priestly" figure. Personal/family counsel is good, often required and may well be right. But it's just that counsel.

Going to church doesn't mean checking your mind/free will at the door. Just like in any well functioning family, it's good to talk.


Hope this help.

God bless

I reckon it's because many churches function as organisations.
And like all good organisations, they search for the best talent and
pay well to retain them!

Salaried pastors, admin staff, workers, pr budgets, legal teams,
hired guest speakers, worker training, air time, political activism.

It's called church Lord, but not as we know it!


God bless

Faith & experience talking!

We wanna weds would do well to take heed.

Thanks Sister Mikun.