Udatso's Posts
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We reply you, you call us liars. We keep quiet, you claim victory. Its difficult to please FOOLS.
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Rilwon has done justice to thE questions. @ 4evergod2 I hope your questions have been answered? Jazakallahu khairan |
Hahaha |
Oladim001 No matter the temptation to reply those guys, you should have ignored. Now you have been successfully dragged into a fruitless argument. ..lets only contribute to Obadiah questions if need be or add to answers already provided. Engaging him in a silly argument won't only waste your time but derail the thread Barka Dasallah brother |
tartar9:Thought so too. But don't you think that was a bad time to be sarcastic. |
tartar9 Have you been hacked? Your comment is disturbing May Allah have mercy on her |
lexiconkabir:Same to you brother. May Allah accept our saum and all other ibadaat |
haffaze777:Happy eidul fitr ya akh and to other ikhwaani fillahi |
hopefulLandlord: |
And that was how Anas09 was silenced. |
lexiconkabir:I was about to advice other brothers to leave him for you so the attention won't be divided. You are doing a great job. Ride on. Please ignore the NOISE MAKERS |
Lexiconkabir Does your request of you being the only one to attend to him still stand? |
May Allah protect is from misguidance |
Demmzy15:Even though he sounds like a Christian, It is not Quite clear If he is dissapointed in Christianity Or in God. |
lexiconkabir:It doesn't matter. You believe what you wish, I believe mine |
lexiconkabir:Maybe my hadith app must have given me the wrong reference. Snapshot below Smh, i don't have anything else to say, you can hold on to your vviews while i hold on to mine.I see
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lexiconkabir:The issue of Stoning a married Woman is a similar issue as this. I wouldnt go into that yet In this hadith you quoted, why is there a condition. And what does the condition mean. Your other hadith of Buhari doesn't give condition. It tells you to kill anyone who leaves Islam Ok, then dont take hadith that said isa(a.s) will be back seriously, or the hadith that talks on dajjal, because they are not in the Quran.Don't be ridiculous brother, we are talking about hudud here . And am not a Quranite. I just don't take hadith that contradicts the Quran. Simpler issues of theft, zina all have their punishment prescribed in the Quran, howAnd when they are carried out detailed in thE hadith. Apostasy doesn't follow this procedure. |
lexiconkabir:«4353» حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ حَنْبَلٍ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ أَخْبَرَنَا أَيُّوبُ عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ أَنَّ عَلِيًّا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ أَحْرَقَ نَاسًا ارْتَدُّوا عَنِ الإِسْلاَمِ فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ فَقَالَ لَمْ أَكُنْ لأَحْرِقَهُمْ بِالنَّارِ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ: ((لاَ تُعَذِّبُوا بِعَذَابِ اللَّهِ)). وَكُنْتُ قَاتِلَهُمْ بِقَوْلِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَإِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ: ((مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ)). فَبَلَغَ ذَلِكَ عَلِيًّا عَلَيْهِ السَّلاَمُ فَقَالَ وَيْحَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ. If you cant see theويح ابن عباس، I don't know what else I would show you I will keep saying this, we take rulings from the Quran, and the Sahih Ahadith, if we check the Quran for a ruling and it's silent about it, then we go to hadith, and if its also silent, then we will be silent, but if one of them is not silent, then we must follow the one that talked on it, since BOTH ARE REVELATIONS FROM ALLAH.It's true we take rulings from the Quran and hadith. But Quran comes first, they aren't equal in authenticity. Quran stated cases one may be killed and didn't give room for other instances . Then a hadith comes to tell us something else, that's contradiction And the Quran wasn't silent on apostate, Worldly punishment wasn't prescribed For it in the Quran. Why can't you accept this to mean no punishment for apostate in this dunya Based on Quran ? Especially when the hadith Saying other wise go against 5:32 |
Contact17:Whats the quranic verse for these three points you just mentioned cos in the Quran according to Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 In 5:32, after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says: On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then although there came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32) In the context of an emphasis on preserving the life of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes for which a person can be killed: 1) Murdering another human being; 2) Spreading mischief (fasad) in the land. Nowhere else the Qur`an mentions any other crime for which the death penalty is considered. I know you might say, hadith is a lso a source of Sharia in Islam. Yes that's true but in all other punishments for crimes, they have a base in the Quran before they are now explained in details in the hadith. This case isn't so. Besides, Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi WA sallam in a hadith left an apostate walk free |
TheDevilIsALai:This thread was meant for Muslims. Non Muslims are to watch and observe |
lexiconkabir:In book reference book 40, Hadith 1 Sunan Abu dawud 4351 How does this contradict the hadith i broufht from bukhari? Or maybe I'm missing somethingDid Allah say " wow to ibn Abbas " or "ibn Abbas has spoken the truth "? So far, i am yet to see the hadith that cobtradict that of bukhari, or maybe I'm missing what you wanted me to see....if i am pls let me know.I just pointed it out |
Newnas:This isnt about what the unbelievers think about Islam. If a Muslim irtadda and causes mischief, he should be executed. If non Muslims like, they say all sort of rubbish as they please. This is you guys taking the words of ulama as sealed and concluded as they cannot make mistake and therefore no need to review them. They aren't messengers or prophets of Allah. This is you guys believing that once a sahih, Always a sahih even when new evidences come in. |
lexiconkabir:We have the sayings of Allah Which is no doubt truest of all truth where certain people's blood can be shed. Apostasy is not one of them. We have a hadith(a narration attributed to rasulullah which may be or may Not be true) With a contrary view to that of the Quran. In this case I don't take that hadith seriously unless there's a quranic verse supporting it. |
lexiconkabir:Dr bilal gives reason why they should be executed if you study his examples correctly. That is treasonous behaviour from them. But your stand is clear which is kill any murtad Muslim. It doesn't matter if he has harm the Muslims or not. Here's Dr zakir naik's view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROVoBYAoKsE Here's shabir Allyvs view too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4GK2I6GMcc |
@ lexiconkabir I will reply you InshaAllah @ newnas It's not about pleasing the people |
lexiconkabir:There was a context to the embolden, taking it in seclusion isn't fair to me ya akh |
lexiconkabir:.(A) “WHOEVER CHANGED HIS RELIGION, KILL HIM” As should become clear in the sequel, the only hadith that legislates or prescribes as a law the death penalty for apostasy is found, with some variations, in Bukhari 2794, 6411, Abu Da`ud 3787, Tirmidhi 1378, Nasa`i 3991-7, Ibn Majah 2526, Ahmad 1776, 2420, 2813 (cf. Ahmad 1802). All these narrations are identical or similar to one of the following five narrations: A-I) Abu al-Nu‘man Muhammad ibn al-Fadl related to us: Hammad ibn Zayd related to us from Ayyub from ‘‘Ikrimah who said: “Some Zanadiqah were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would not have burnt them because of the prohibition by the Messenger of God: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of God.’ I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’.” (Bukhari 9/57=6411) Narrations similar to the above are also found in Bukhari 2794, Nasa`i 3992, Abu Da`ud 3787, and Ahmad 1775, 2420. A-II) Ahmad ibn Muhammad bin Hanbal related to us: Isma‘il bin Ibrahim related to us: Ayyub informed us from ‘Ikrimah that ‘Ali, peace be upon him, burned some people who abandoned Islam. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would not have burnt them with fire. Indeed, the Messenger of God said: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of God.’ I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of God. For, surely the Messenger of God said: ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’.” This reached ‘Ali, peace be upon him, and he said: ‘Woe to Ibn ‘Abbas’. (Abu Da`ud 3787) A-III) Ahmad ibn ‘Abdah al-Dabbi al-Basri related to us: ‘Abd al-Wahhab al-Thaqafi related to us: Ayyub related to us from ‘Ikrimah that ‘Ali burned some people who abandoned Islam. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’. I would not have burnt them in view of the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of God.’ This reached ‘Ali and he said: Ibn ‘Abbas has spoken the truth” (Tirmidhi 1378) A-IV) Muhammad bin Muthanna informed us saying: ‘Abd al-Samad related to us saying: Hisham related to us from Qatadah from Anas that ‘Ali was brought with people from al-Zatt who worshipped idols and he burnt them. Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of God said exactly: Whoever changed his religion kill him. (Nasa`i 3997) A narration similar to the above is also found in Ahmad 2813. A-V) حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى عَنْ مَالِك عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَسْلَمَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ مَنْ غَيَّرَ دِينَهُ فَاضْرِبُوا عُنُقَهُ Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd bin Aslam that the Messenger of God said: “Whoever changed his religion strike his neck” (Muwatta 1219) Narrations similar to the above, quoting only the words “Whoever changed his religion …” are also found in Nasa`i 3991, 3993-6, and Ibn Majah 2526. |
lexiconkabir:Actually, killing apostates in an Islamic state when they haven't committed any treasonable offences is encouraging hypocrisy. I ask again, have you seen other variations of this hadith you quoted that are classed sahih hadith? Taking a life of another is not a simple act to be easily ignored especially when the hadith that talk about them are questionable. If Quran isn't in support of killing and the only hadith we have are either not detailed enough or confusing, I see no reason why such hadith should be taken as a revelation. |
b) In D-V the Prophet does not order the execution; only hoped that someone would kill the man. This is no way to establish and execute penalties for crimes. c) Both narrations are weakened by the obvious contradictions between them and by the fact that both have narrators who are not very strong. In D-IV, one narrator is ‘Ali who is described by some scholars as da‘if al-hadith. Another narrator is ‘Ikrimah whose weakness we have already documented. In D-V also there are two narrators who have received negative comments: Ahmad bin al-Mufaddal – munkar al-hadith. Al-Suddi – fi hadith hi du‘f. And Abu Da`ud himself does not seem to trust al-Suddi. He uses the word “claimed” for him rather than “said” or “related”. ‘Ikrimah Again Aswe noted earlier, in D-V the Prophet does not order the execution of ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh while in D-IV he does. It is of great interest to note that D-IV comes from ‘Ikrimah from Ibn ‘Abbas. This is of course the same ‘Ikrimah who transmitted the only hadith in which the Prophet prescribes the death penalty for apostasy. Thus once again ‘Ikrimah is associated with the death penalty for apostasy. It is reasonable to think that in earlier narration there was no order by the Prophet to execute ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh. But ‘Ikrimah, ever keen to attribute the death penalty for apostasy to the Prophet, has changed the earlier story and introduced a prophetic order to execute ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh. It is also possible that some later narrator – ‘Ali or his father -- has introduced the order for ‘Abd Allah’s execution and attributed the hadith to ‘Ikrimah because he knew that ‘Ikrimah narrated ahadith prescribing the death penalty for apostasy. After the introduction of ‘Ikrimah into the isnad, it was easy to bring along Ibn ‘Abbas because ‘Ikrimah often attributed his ahadith to Ibn ‘Abbas. http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html |
D-V) ‘Uthman bin Abi Shaybah related to us: Ahmad bin al-Mufaddal related to us: Asbat bin Nasr related to us saying: al-Suddi claimed (za‘ama) from Mus‘ab bin Sa‘d from Sa‘d who said: On the day of the Conquest of Makkah ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh hid himself with ‘Uthman bin ‘Affan. He came with him and made him stand before the Prophet and then said: O Messenger of God! Accept the allegiance of ‘Abd Allah. He raised his head three times, each time refusing him. Then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. He then turned to his Companions and said: “Was not there among you a right-minded man who would have stood to this one when I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance and killed him?” They said: “We did not know what you were thinking in your heart, O Messenger of God! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye?” He said: “It is not fitting for a prophet to hoodwink by the eyes.” (Abu Da`ud 3793; see also Nasa`i 3999) Is ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh mentioned in the two narrations, D-IV and D-V, the same man as the previous three narrations? In favor of the identity of the two men is the fact that both are said to write for the Prophet. It is not likely that the Prophet, a very good judge of characters, would twice choose such bad characters to write the word of God. Against the identity of the two men is the fact that the stories about the two men are very different and that in D-V it is not mentioned that ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh used to write for the Prophet. In any case the narrations do not support the death penalty for apostasy for the following reasons: a) In D-IV the Prophet orders the execution of ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh but it is not clear whether this order is for apostasy or for some other actions also. Moreover, the order was not executed, since man was given protection. For a prescribed penalty there is no such protection. The Prophet’s attitude towards a prescribed penalty reportedly was that he would apply it even if his daughter Fatimah committed the crime. |
D-III) Yazid bin Harun related to us: Humayd informed us from Anas that a man used to write for the Prophet. He had read al-Baqarah and Al ‘Imran. And the man when he read al-Baqarah and Al ‘Imran became important among us. But when the Prophet would dictate to him “forgiving, merciful” he would write “knowing, wise”. The Prophet would say, Write thus and thus. Write as you like. He would dictate to him, “knowing, wise” and he would say, I will write “hearing, seeing”. He would say: Write. Write as you want. Then this man turned away from Islam and joined the mushrikun. And he said I know Muhammad more than you do. I used to write what I wanted. Then this man died. The Prophet said, the earth will not accept this man. Anas said, Abu Talha told me that he went to the land where this man died and found him thrown out. So Abu Talha said (to the people), What is the matter with this man. They said, We buried him many times, but the earth does not accept him. (Ahmad 11769; see also Ahmad 13084) The narrators Yazid bin Harun (d. 206) and Humayd (d. 142) are trustworthy, at least to the extent that they are acceptable to Bukhari. Yet the narration has obvious problem: the Prophet seems to be willing to let the man write what he wanted, something clearly impossible and very insulting to the Prophet. In the above three narrations a man clearly commits apostasy but no order of his execution or punishment in any other way is given by the Prophet. He only predicts that the man will be rejected by the earth. In Bukhari and Muslim he does not even make this prediction. He says nothing about the man and lets God deal with him. D-IV) Ahmad bin Muhammad al-Marwazi related to us: ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn bin Waqid related to us from his father from Yazid al-Nahwi from ‘Ikrimah from Ibn ‘Abbas who said: ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Sarh used to write for the Messenger of God but Shaytan made him slip and he joined the disbelievers. The Messenger of God ordered his execution on the day of the conquest (of Makkah). But ‘Uthman bin ‘Affan sought protection for him and the Messenger of God granted it to him. (Abu Da`ud 3792, see also Nasa`i 4001) |
(D) ANOTHER APOSTATE NOT EXECUTED We earlier discussed the well-attested case of the Bedouin apostate who was not punished by death or in any other way. Some less reliable ahadith mention other cases of apostates who were not executed. We now briefly examine these ahadith... D-I) Muhammad bin Rafi‘ related to us: Abu Nadr related to us: Sulayman (ibn al-Mughirah) related to us from Thabit from Anas bin Malik who said: There was among us a man from Banu al-Najjar who had read Surah al-Baqarah and Al ‘Imran and used to write for the Messenger of God but later on he departed in flight and joined the people of the book. They gave him lift saying, This is he who used to write for Muhammad. And they felt good about him. He did not live for long when God struck his neck among them. They dug for him and buried him. By the morning the earth threw him on its top. They again dug for him and buried him but by the morning the earth again threw him on its top. They dug for him yet again and buried him but by the morning the earth threw him again on its top. So they left him discarded. (Muslim 6/360 = 4987; Ahmad 12846 also from Sulayman with the same isnad and very similar wording) D-II) Abu Ma‘mar related to us: ‘Abd al-Warith related to us: ‘Abd al-‘Aziz related to us from Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surah al-Baqarah and Al ‘Imran. He used to write for the Prophet but later on he reverted to Christianity and started to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then God caused him to die, and the people buried him, but by the morning the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his Companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave for him, making it deep, but by the morning the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his Companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They once again dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but by the morning the earth had again thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and so left him (thrown on the ground). (Bukhari 4/814 = 3348) |
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, it brings me joy as i wish you all a happy celebration of today's eid, may Allah reward us completed with good for the just concluded Ramadan, i pray to Allah that we see more, but most importantly if we die we should be granted Al-jannatul Firdaus just as the prophet recommended, hope we get the full rewards for todays eid, most importantly Allah should always keep us to the straight path which we always ask for in our five daily prayers and I greet you just as the sahabas did to eachother in times of eid, Taqabbal Allaahu minna wa minkum (May Allaah accept (this worship) from us and from you), Amin.