₦airaland Forum

OkaiCorne:
Did you notice how the "knowledgeable atheists" who keeps shouting delusional up and down are suddenly quiet... I was hoping they answer me on chicken and egg question, but you that is not an atheist has covered up for them...

There'll always be another chance to engage them again...

lLol

OkaiCorne:
You're still taking "dust of the earth" as literal dust without considering the fact that these ancient men wouldn't know whether this dust is an aggregation of simple life forms that cannot be seen on a microscopic level...

How can complex life forms be formed from literal dust? It's common sense to note that complex life forms are a walking mass of interconnected simple life forms...

The aggregation of simple life forms results to complex life forms. For lack of better words used by ancient men, do you expect them to use words like atoms, prokaryotes, eukaryotes, single celled organisms e.t.c. instead of dust of the earth?

Did they even have microscopes to know what constitutes the "dust of the earth"?

I'm simply saying that due to limitation in knowledge back then, the best words that could be used is "dust of the earth"


Unless the evolution theory can give us a thorough explanation of how a jungle fowl came to be in the first place...

The clue to this lies in how a planet is formed...and how single celled life forms later on exists on the planet given suitable conditions...

Also bear in mind that these single celled organisms would be existing in water too...thus accounting for complex marine life forms such as fish and other creatures

Then how a chain reaction in the process triggers aggregation of these simple life forms into complex life forms...

what I am basically telling you is do not not try to demonstrate creationist theory using scientific lens. It is a wrong tool for a different job...... Scientist do not do with metaphorical phenomenon. They deal with observable substances. Scientist are materialistic minded, anything that can not be observed using the five senses and with the aid of assisted computerised object is consider non scientific........

I agree with you the dust may not be the single literal form we all know. It may be a combination of diffrent molecules and ions both known and unknown. But all these are just mere assumption. Science is still in its infancy.....and science do with literal substance. Maybe when science met philosophy once again. The thtuth will be accelerated.

Do science even have a benchmark?

profolaolu:
Wrong usage of the scripture, give what is Caesar's to Caesar, go and read the story,money that belong to Caesar was said to be return to him because his picture was on it

You are the one ignorantly unaware of the scripture.

The land belong to the native( traditionalist) your religion is am imported version, you wanted to over ride them in their domain. Please do not turn up Bible upside down. It is simple illustration...... Or do you think it will happen like nollyhood movie. This is reality.

OkaiCorne:
That's the problem...

What if the origin of the jungle fowl happens to be the "dust of the earth" used to create the jungle fowl...

Mind you "dust of the earth" is an aggregation of simple life forms in tissues then into systems and then the whole creature...

But for lack of better words by ancient writers...they cannot use words like atoms or cells...hence "dust of the earth" not sand of the earth ooo...

The "dust of the earth" could relate to the collection of simple life forms being aggregated to form a complex life form...

By the way...lack of data already points to the limitation of the evolution theory as there's a missing link to how the jungle fowl came to be in the first place...

The again...this has nothing to do with Abrahamic religion...as there are other creation stories with a similar pattern across cultures, traditions and religions...

well, is your hypothesis reliable and demonstrable under any scientific method? i will like to know?

firstly, durst contain silicon that is not found in any appreciable amount in jungle fowl or any other living organism. so is it possible that jungle fowl was made from durst that has higher amount of silicon and metal presence ? well you may argue all living things are made from the star dust that busted in the supernova fine. i have no issue with it. but most of the material found on earth do not posses equal element. for example? iron and cooper. they are both created from the star both the material content are not the same. on a serious note, every living creature possess carbon, hydrogen and oxygen . and all these comes from things that are not dust but air and water. therefore i will argue jungle fowl was created from air and water. how does it happen i cannot say. maybe there is dust, i cannot also tell. science is limited in this area. NOT ALL RELIGION SUBSCRIBE TO THE DUST CREATION. but it is popular among abrahamic faith and also in Yoruba myth. please do not treat creationist theory as scientific evidence.both of them do not use the same means of verification.

OkaiCorne:
The theory of evolution and the Creationism doesn't contradict one another...they are intertwined...
Unless there is a superior argument to counter it...

And mind you, I am not appealing to you to see the Creator through the lenses of religion...

i actually get your point. i know you want balance the two theory..but it is impossible....why? the evolutionary theory is simply the explanation of how species ,individual organisms and molecules changes over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits. its less concern about how these aforementioned element appear in the first place. while creationist on the other is an explanation of the beginning of all these element.

why they can not be intermingled? evolution theory works with a data at hand( empirical evidence) while the creationist theory works with divine data that can not be empirically tested. both of them do not use the same tools.

back to your question, chicken earlier ancestor is called jungle fowl and chicken itself evolve through selective stages. science is not interested in seeking for infinite regress of explanation, so they are less concern about the origin of jungle fowl. unless the data is available. that is the limitation. (i.e) creationist and evolution theory cannot be balance since they are not using the same parameters. i have no problem if you agree with the two. since evolution theory do not give the concluding answer. you may rely on the creationist evidence on that. but do not treat them as if they were together and cannot be broken.

OkaiCorne:
Beautiful! You are up to date on the chicken and egg question...and that is the position of things for now which I find reasonable.

Next thing is, I really don't care whether the creation theory is an Abrahamic belief...besides, there are stories of a Creator running across almost all cultures and religions around the world which in terms of details is not the same narrative with what obtains in the Bible or the Torah...but the central theme points to the existence of the Creator...

On to the next thing, let us work back...what could bring about the existence of the chicken? an aggregation of single celled organisms over a period of time?

please before we go ahead. what is your interest with this questions? i cannot just be answering question for answering sake. i love the questions anyway. At the end what do you want to proof?

hopefulLandlord:
You agree that both you, Shekau and Vaxx are worshipping the same God?

you this guy lol

Khd95:
somebody give that masquerade /deity one carton of schnapps

how dare you belittle the symbolic representation of the ancestors on earth.. take that schnapps back and handle them Moet and Hennessy

OkaiCorne:
Read my previous post carefully...I thought I stated I am not discrediting the evolution theory...neither am I discarding the creator theory as well...

These are not incompatible events...Rather, I see the Creator as the initiator and much later on, a catalyst in the process (my own perspective)...

Back to my chicken and egg question...what is your point of view...and what does the body of science say on this matter?

in bllonaire thread, i told you that your perspective is still not different from that of abrahamic believe. it will be difficult to relate evolution theory with creationist theory why? science provide a set of rules in which its own theory can be refuted, in science world today , some scientist has refuted the evolution theory just because the flaws also meet scientific standard. though their evidence is not solid enough . if you must set hierarchy using the creationist theory amd evolution theory as you said. you must treat them with the same standard. can creationist theory be flawed scientifically?

now to your question> i am asumming you asking about chicken egg here. the research that was carried out by the British scientist indicate the chicken come first. they said that the formation of eggs is only possible due to protein found in chicken’s ovaries. That means eggs have to be formed in chickens first.The protein speeds up the development of the shell. you can read ahead here.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201000679/abstract

but note that this research is not absolute, another research tomorrow can invalidate this one. but if i am to come with my own perceptive, i will also agree with the findings why? it is because an egg can not come before the chicken that laid it. it must be chicken first. chicken laid the egg. there is protochicken that lays the foundation

if the Christian are doing their crusade, no one distract nor disturb them. why do they not give what belong to Caesar to Caesar as the bible preach. why are they not yielding to the instruction of Christ?

OkaiCorne:
Nope...I am also not discrediting the creator theory or whatever...and I don't see the evolution theory nor creation story as mutually incompatible events per se...

any answers to the chicken and egg question?

with the way you discuss, i do not think you can discredit evolution. unless i am mistaken. the evidence is so overwhelming to be totally discard . i can engage you on the question but i am not an atheist, do you throw it to every one.

frank317:
@ bold is what we have been talking about but the christians believe that there is no one that is good without christ. Their God will burn u in hell for not confessing Jesus.
Why do i think atheists are on them 247. They condenm us to hell for saying their God does not exist.

Chairman, any Christian that accommodates u as a pagan is just a church goer. A real christian will either avoid u or pester u until u denounce ur mode of worship.

How many times have atheists opened a thread against pagans? Well pagans dont condenm and threaten. However i dont know what u are about in this forum. Christians are only with u because they need other god followers to join them condenm atheists who say God does not exist... as long as any Good christian is concerned, u are going to hell. But u rather attack atheist who are not bothered with what u believe.

from your writting, you ask the most sensible question anyone has ever ask me on this section. yes my believe with the Christians are different but we met at one point. the '' GOD IDEA''. i do not attack atheist ideology but just curious about the rationality in their idea. we all have freedom of worship and thought. if you do follow me, you will realized i do not like debate but rather discuss nor do i favor one particular religion above others. i am on this forum to actually get myself engage and feel at home. am not in the same continent with you.

honestly i found atheist interesting, particularly when it comes to asking question? most of the question are actually impressive and brain tasking. through them i solidify my faith by answering those question. in fact Muslim too are also wonderful people when it comes to questioning. it just that am not allow to comment on their section. in short my purpose on this section is to broaden my knowledge.

Your view on the fundamentalist christian are true, so true that i cannot deny. but my personal relationship with the liberal are very mutual. we even drink ,wine and debate together. go through my topic , i have written article to engage Christian,Muslim and atheist in general. i may post some of them to you. so i am not here to support A or B apart from those who share the same ideology with me.

my philosophy tell me all religion are true so long it promote peace and love.

OkaiCorne:
You don't believe in these creation myth...neither am I asking you to...but at the very least, you should have some research work or plausible theory you rely on that could help answer the chicken and egg question...

Atheists are intelligent people, so I'd like to see that intelligence on display...but if you can't give me an answer, then give your fellow atheists a chance at it...or make reference to science journals you can lay your hands on to tackle the question I asked...and by extension, disposing off these creation "myths"

are you trying to discredit evolution?

why do you report him?

FeelDeMusic:
Thanks Shadeyinka! I've actually heard a lot of these drums, as I said I have a talking drum myself, I agree that the bata drums aren't talking drums even though people classify them as such.... Vaxx, do you think you have some input to give?

it actually a metaphor. it is not that drum talk itself but skillful drummer can mimic the sound of the drum to actually reflect human voice. it sound like human humming.

bata also come with its special dance. and that dance is what is called ijo bata(bata dance) it is not only bata drum that talk. gangan , dundun also talk. likewise omele but omele is a supportive drum that go with sakara. these are just few i can remember for now.

MrBottle:
You do not sound as if we are having a discussion. You seems irritated by the question. I answered your question with question it becomes a problem. You don't have to comment if you are seeing it as a debate cos I am not going to accept your opinion just because you believe you are in a position of authority to deal it out.

Meanwhile, a restaurant needs people to operate it as it was built by people and should be managed by people.

i understand where you are coming from, i have to put you into check so that you will not follow the same standard people with the same ideology like you follow. my concern is to let you focus on the topic and do not derail it yourself. again do not let me see it as a debate, i never said i am seeing it as a debate. be open minded.

Good, a restaurant needs people to operate it since it was built by people and should also be manage by people. good point

so lets apply the same theory to science theory( big bang). your analogy will invalidate the principle of science . since science indicate the universe has no author and it is managing itself. you can see clearly your own answer has invalidate scientific theory unless you want to argue otherwise.

This is why i said , within yourself rest the truth you are looking for, the nature has given you a logical clue that universe cannot come from nothing and it can not be operated by itself , there must be something behind his wheel. so the something is what the world term as GOD. God is just an appellation, you has an individual may coin your own word to fit your mental position. i prefer calling the something OLODUMARE since that make me comfortable.

MrBottle:
Do you mean literally or figuratively cos a restaurant which is a house can't move?
Rephrase your question please.

i am asking you can a restaurant operate itself without people in it? please try as much as possible to read my post well before you reply, do not let me see this discussion as a debate. we should be having discussion here not argument.

MrBottle:
So that something is God.? Are they many or just one.? Men has been able to set a lot of things in motion..create things too. Does it make man God?

I ask you a question..... I am expecting an answer.. Do not reply me with question.you are commiting a falacy here. I assume you wanted to learn that is why you ask the question or do you have the answer already. So we can begin dealing with it.

The question again. Can restaurant put itself in motion without people in it?

MrBottle:
From traditional Yoruba perspective? I see... And there are other perspectives of what God is from thousands of traditions all over the world.

Aside from all this traditional and religious perspectives can God be explained through what is around us?

Yes the nature is a typical example. Let's use the science evidence. (Big bang)that the universe accidentally spring forth from an element smaller than an atom to the size bigger than galaxy and hence birth stars , , planets , moon etc in the supernova. And till now it is believe that the universe is still expanding (dark matter) so if you clearly check this follow up , you will gladly see the universe is in motion.

So let me ask you . if we should follow scientific principle ( big bang theory) that universe was accidentally created, should we also accept that universe set itself in motion accidentally?


For example , we ignorantly believe a big restaurant set up itself, should we still believe it can operate itself without people in it? At least something must put the reasturant in motion.......

frank317:
My guy pls stop making things up about ur God. Nothing like almighty God who is a judge. U cant be calling God almighty judge yet the whole world does not know this. U are talking about God the creator here and not some old man in ur backyard.
How can he be the almigthy Judge and u are the one to tell us about it? Think am na.
Lol @ we worship the same God differently. Incase u dont know ur bible... let me remind u... jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one cometh to the father but through him. Muslims, pagans etc do not believe this or has the bible changed?
The day the spirit of God touches a pastor, he will go and destroys Vaxx's shrine and u all will be hailing yahweh will vaxx will be cursing.
Dont play mind games with ur here to win an arguement. U and vaxx and muslims are not worshipping the same God. Infact, yahweh may put u in hell for saying this.

Quick one... can i confidently u are worshiping the same God with Shakau, the leader of boko haram?

the fundametalist christain will not want to associate with pagan . that is a quite an honest point. I could remember when about 200 shrine were destroy by so called eastern pastor who said Yahweh mandated him to do so. But sincerely speaking they are so many liberal Christian out there that are very accommodating....... In every saint society, there exist black sheep.....

Do you imagine God to be she or he? Why do you use who? It shows a flaw in your question. It presume you already have a clue. Your question should be what is God?

From a traditionalist perspective, ifa monotheistic. I believe in a single creative force known as Olodumare. The Universe in it’s entirety springs from that single source. Unlike the Orisa, Olodumare is not an energy but rather a consciousness. A consciousness big enough to encompass the entire of creation. Everything we know is part of Olodumare, as is everything we are yet to discover.

The books of the abrahamic religion is not the only tools to use when seeking for the truth.and likewise science is not enough tools. But both of them can be use as a parameter to validate the truth.. In other words, The ultimate truth you are seeking for is within you and Not what the books think or science think it should be .but what it is . onlly you can achieve that feet..

FeelDeMusic:
Fela is really cool! For me it's Asa, King Sunny Ade, Omawumi, Angelique Kidjo (she's half Yoruba), and..... hmmmm.... I'm not sure.

Why would people think you're out of the country? I thought you were in Naija hahaha

king sunny Ade haaaaa, it cool bro...

No, am not in the country.

FeelDeMusic:
Yeah, I believe in God as I said, but I don't really believe much in the Abrahamic one.

Well that's confusing... now there's a bata dance and a drum! LOL Wow...

Also you take a very short time to get back, that's just fine and I kind of like that since we can chat casually and I also like to get back to others quickly.

I know that this is off topic but who is your favorite Yoruba musician? Do you like Asa like me?

good then, i do not also subscribe to Abrahamic concept of God, but not totally. we share the same perspective when it comes to the nature of GOD(I.E)monotheism.

Do not be confused. it is interesting, you can check the video on Youtube...

nairaland made it seems like i am not out of the country, in fact i am at home... asa is cool, she is good with musical instrument like guitar. but due to my childhood upbringing, it is fela , though he is no more, i can still not do without the evergreen record. but i will put wande coal , olamide and Cynthia Morgan on my list

FeelDeMusic:
Hmmmm, do you mean my religious beliefs? Well, I guess I believe that there is such thing as God, but that it's not really a person... I believe that God is more an entity, a force, something which we can't really understand or comprehend but that is everywhere and in everything, including you and I. That's what I think.

I was raised Jewish, and I still kind of practice my religion a bit, but neither me nor my father, who is also Jewish, really do anything with it anymore.

I thought bata was a kind of drum? So it's a dance too? Hmm, cool! I'll have to look it up.

A kind of pantheism . cool at least you do not reject GOD. yes bata is also a drum on its own with its special dance.

FeelDeMusic:
Yes, I am using a screen reader! Wow, that's so interesting you know that! No one knows what that is so I always have to explain it to them!

Hahahahahahahaha I just told you I play the gangan... isn't that the talking drum? I'm not amazing at it but I'm practicing and being taught by a teacher in England, and one in Atlanta wants to teach me too.

there is a particular dance associated with gangan . it is called bata. it take lot of energy when you are dancing. am sure you can learn that too. tell me about your believe?

FeelDeMusic:
Hey, it's ok, don't be like that! I'm sure that you're able to sing good!

I also am trying to play the talking drum but I'm not great at it (LOL)! I'm a musician though, I have perfect pitch and rhythm, I'm assuming that this is partially caused by my blindness.

I was born blind at birth and my retinas detached themselves from my eyes, as a result I've never been able to see throughout my entire life... but I'm just fine with that! I adore being blind honestly, and I think it has given me a lot of advantages over my sighted peers (LOL)!

I have loved all sorts of music throughout my life. Currently I'm obviously into AFrican/Nigerian/Yoruba music and studying it. I love playing the gangan! It's so unusual but so cool at once!

whao. that means you are using screen reader. you have already gather the strength to move ahead . that is good of you.... am sure you can learn drumming too. have you heard about yoruba talking drum?

FeelDeMusic:
Also, I adore writing, especially creative writing, and even more spicifically fantasy writing. In a story I'm working on one of the characters, who is a person in real life as well, is the daughter of the goddess Osun. I chose this trait for her because I just thought of how Osun represents love and beauty and femininity. and harmony, and this person brings those kinds of things to me whenever I listen to her sing (she's Asa BTW)! You might have guessed because of my signature.....

Anyhow, I'm also incorporating that aspect of hers into the story since I think it's cool to put some more traditional cultural aspects in it since it tells of African characters, musicians, all real musicians, in my story they go to a music school.

interesting, osun symbolized beauty and love. she is called iya olomo yoyo. mother of plenty children ...... i love music too but my voice is not good enough?

FeelDeMusic:
Yes, I totally agree that we are truly all one people! Lovely philosophy.....

My fellow brethren? What do you mean... like people like you who practice Ifa? I'm confused.....

yes , checking on your topic, do you use screen reader?

FeelDeMusic:
I think you're right about that.... that's something else I've heard.

I'm actually not black at all (hahahaha)! I'm white and from America, but I have a huge fascination with this kind of stuff. I'm assuming you practice this religion?

nice having you here bro. we are one under the surface of the earth. yes it is my way of life. my dad a traditionalist ,my mom a Muslim) was educated in an Anglican school . this make me have adequate knowledge of the three major religion in Nigeria. ifa is growing in the usa. will you like to connect with your fellow brethren? and you are free to ask me anything

FeelDeMusic:
Also I don't think Ifa is the name for the Yoruba spiritual system.... Ifa is just the name for the system of divination which is just part of their spirituality/religion. In a more modern religious sense, we can term the entire thing Ifa, just like Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Hinduism..... but really spiritual systems like that don't have names as they are a part of life in general, as many say.

ifa is much like a computerized system that gather the thought and rational decision of the Yoruba. a storage fercility that contain every issues that deals with mankind. be it philosophy , politics and moral code. our culture is our religion. you may not be totally wrong if you call it ifa traditional religion. i prefer the coinage.

FeelDeMusic:
Interesting Vaxx. I believe that every kind of culture and race has some kind of explanation for reincarnation, this is just one of them to me and I enjoy hearing the Yoruba take on it. I enjoy studying traditional African religion, spicifically that of the Yoruba people as that was the first ethnic group that I had come into contact with when first discovering that I am fascinated with African cultures and peoples... doesn't help that the person who introduced me to all of this is a Yoruba singer! LOL Wonder if maybe she has practiced the Yoruba spiritual system before?

which ethnic group do you belong too? on my own personal study, we blacks , all over Africa share a lot in common. our believe system is just too similar. i will be ready to tell you much about Yoruba spiritual system so that you can see the similarities yourself and also appreciate it.

Freeze007:
I appreciate them for their achievements. Do, they in turn appreciate the giver of knowledge even though I know they will still be limited.

Does it truly identify all Rivers, please be 100%, I could be wrong here. Google Map is limited in its technology- I am so sure

with the aid of the GPS technology, google map cover a limited dimension of the earth. i agree not absolute but very much. google map has been useful. thanks to military and aviation sector. the tracking system adopted by mobile giant like APPLE and Samsung is a proof of the progress.