₦airaland Forum

Something came up during this debate.

Do we have Jesus' LITERAL blood in heaven?
Somebody claims that it is Jesus blood and Jesus interceding in heaven for the world.
This borders on Catholicism mysticism of transubstantiation where the elements of the communion morph into Jesus' literal flesh and blood (maybe Dracula was Catholic)

Is every reference to Jesus blood in the NT literal? If yes, I have some difficult questions for you. If No, when or how do we tell the literal from symbolic/figure of speech?

For the record, vooks subscribes to no such thing as Jesus' blood preserved in some form in heaven probably outside his body

Somebody wished me death by car crash an suicide by poisoning all in the name of a debate. Ignore all BS and stick to IT IS WRITTEN

WinsomeX:
Don't mind him. He used it on Candour on the Word of Faith thread, that one cut him to size and then he tries me... he will never try it again; at least not on Nairaland.

Colossians 2:18

KJV:Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

ESV:Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

NIV:Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.

AMP:Let no one defraud you by acting as an umpire and declaring you unworthy and disqualifying you for the prize, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions [he claims] he has seen, vainly puffed up by his sensuous notions and inflated by his unspiritual thoughts and fleshly conceit,

Not having 'spirit' is a strategy used by control groups to contain dissent. I have heard this used so many times to cut opposition/debaters to size. A variant of the same is labeling them as causing 'strife' or being 'carnal'..... I never thought I would witness this shameless using of God's name in vain here

WinsomeX:
Thank you BabaGnoni for your kind defence. I actually intended asking what the spirit, talking to him, said about the "inappropriate relationship" his Pastor, Chris Oyakhilome, been having with female Pastors at the White House. But alas, is there a need?

He thought to use mesmerism on me... try again.

God pass all of una!

Them advise them against fantasizing and hallucinating of being members of the Godhead. If a negro calls himself goD, what can I do?

Bidam:
Ok, you should also do well do take your advice too, calling peeps names like goD's ain't cool either, it's an insult to your creator.

My heart bleeds. It was an analogy. You don't need multiple scriptures to construct a doctrine if one verse is as clear as daylight

Bidam:
Try again. Jesus of NAZARETH is NOT the Holy Spirit.

No problem bro, but sexist jokes and sarcasm are not cool

Bidam:
My attempts at sarcasm is also lost on you, my bad. You should give room for your mentee to stand for him/herself. Do i even know whether the said monicker is female? I might have guessed right you know.

Thank you mbaemeka,
Tongues I fully understand, but they are never called Spirit intercession; they are and are clearly depicted as OUR prayers. But here we have a verse where Holy Spirit is not once but twice said to be groaning for us. That's why I said if you are open minded or unbiased, you are least likely to conclude that Spirit intercession is praying in tongues. Just saying

mbaemeka:
The bible clearly says so. Remember the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He already knows God's will and thoughts but the Human being praying doesn't. So the Holy Spirit uses the human to pray (with the humans voice) because the human doesn't know how to pray as he OUGHT to. Not that he doesn't know how to pray at all.

Now Paul has told us that that prayer could be in articulate speech for e.g, tongues. And now in this verse he has shown that it could be inarticulate like groans (or even laughter) emphasis mine. All that matters is that whatever sounds are heard, they would always be interpreted to the will of God.

Thank you for taking your time to warn me about my theology foundations. You are one of a kind my brother.

Now, what statement don't you agree with?

Bidam:
If you do not agree, it destroys the foundation of your theology.

How many verses do I need to prove that Jesus wept? One John 11:35 sufficeth. Or how many instances of the miracle of turning water into wine do you need before you believe it?

Bidam:
. Ok quote another verse that the Holy Spirit intercedes outside believers.

You don't tell a man that he is behaving like a woman. That's insulting to women. It means he is misbehaving and women misbehave. So which women was trustman behaving like? Your wife or mother?
Think about your closest female relations before parading your Neanderthal testosterone

Bidam:
Am used to your folly. Did my post imply i do not respect your mother?

Who said these groans are ours?

mbaemeka:
The Holy Spirit does it through our own groans I.e with our own voices. The same way he uses our own hands to heal people or aid them financially. We are his outstretched arms and mouths. He speaks through us. That's why he could groan through Paul and other believers during their prayers and Paul said such groans are always in sync with the will of God.

Blood speaking is symbolic sir. That's why it speaks BETTER things than that of Abel. Is Abel blood talking? What did it tell you last night? Blood of Jesus speaking in that verse is as literal as Abel's. Again I won't compete with you in hallucinations.

In three clear verses, Jesus role as an intercession in heaven is well presented. Paul wondered who bewitched Galatians before whom Christ was evidently set forth as crucified. You have a Galatians spiritual IQ

mbaemeka:
My problem with you is that you do not study before posting any verse. And after you have done so, you keep applying underhand tactics to force others to teach you but at the end of the day, you offer no gratitude or obeisance.

You claimed Jesus blood does not speak but that he himself is doing the interceding. I showed you a clear verse saying his blood speaks and then you accuse me of muddying ignorance when it is obvious who the ignorant one is.

I from the beginning showed you how that Christ's role as an intercessor is not the same as the Holy Spirit's role. Christ is an advocate for the WHOLE WORLD (christians and unbelievers) but the Holy Spirit is an advocate for ONLY believers. You insist they are the same but you can not show just one verse to prove it- not one. Instead you misquote John 17 and tell me that was Christ's role as an intercessor yet the same inconsistent you, claimed the role you are referring to is a new one that he took on after his ascension in HEAVEN. Now kindly tell us whether Christ had even died by John 17 and if you cannot tell us that, we can conclude again that you spoke under the same infantile impulse that we have been warning you about.

Please take your time to read John 16:26-27 and take note of the phrase "in that day". You would understand what I have been saying from the bible which is:

1. Christ's role as a mediator, propitiation, advocate and intercessor is for the whole world (sinners and saints) and his presence in heaven is the proof of his role. For sinners he saves them when they come to him and for saints he keeps them saved as they abide in him.

2. The Holy Spirit's role as an intercessor, advocate etc is different because he is a gift to the believers alone. But he lives inside the believers so that is where he works from, using their own hands and mouths and bodies in general to fulfil God's will for them.

In a nutshell, Jesus is for the whole world and when we accept him he gives us the gift i.e the Holy Spirit to live in us.

Paraphrase translations are a refuge for the shallow believers who can't support their arguments

Bidam:
The Holy Spirit Doesn't Do Our Praying for Us. There is no where in scripture where this error is supported. you do not pick a verse out of context and form a doctrine with it. It is called HERESY.

The Amplified version of First Corinthians 14:14 shows us more clearly our relationship with the Holy Spirit in prayer: "For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit [by the Holy Spirit within me] prays ...." Again, when you pray in tongues, it is your spirit by the Holy Spirit within you praying. The Holy Spirit within gives you the utterance, and you speak it out of your spirit. You do the talking—He gives the utterance.

You don't respect women. That's fatal primitivity

Bidam:
You can see no one liked your insult. And i wonder who the kid is here that he was crying wolf about.

That's more like prophesying that the coin that won't fall on heads will fall tails

Have it your way.
Which of my points do you disagree with?

Bidam:
Ok, first do you agree that the folks you call primitive Christians were the first to partake at the Lord's table before the gentiles came on the scene?

that is a sexist statement...'like women', like your mother?

Bidam:
Take am easy trustwoman, you take things too seriously like women. As a mentee, you should wait for your mentor to wake up and answer all his mentions.

So Holy Spirit URGES FOR Bidam to pray? I thought I said no pidgin negro!

http://biblehub.com/topical/i/intercession.htm

Read that verse slowly without referring to your foundation class BS

Romans 8:26- 27 (ESV)
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Bidam:
Ok, lemme help you small.in-ter-sesh'-un (pagha`, "to make intercession"; originally "to strike upon," or "against"; then in a good sense, "to assail anyone with petitions," "to urge," and when on behalf of another, The meaning as used in the Romans 8:26 is that the Holy Spirit urges Christians to pray and not that He intercedes for them as you erroneously assume.

Am very sleepy that's why

Bidam:
Why are you angry? GOOSY GOOSY GANDER.

What dont you agree with and why?

Bidam:
Ok, thanks for your opinions once again. Not that i agree.

And I have little to zero patience for blabber. Can't help it am sorry. Hope you will understand

Bidam:
Did you consult your study tool? I am not mbaemeka, everyone has a unique style of driving home his points. I Like making a public display before destroying puffed up imaginations and ideas of men.

You need to man up and state your position like mbaemeka, I will toy with him till rapture but he knows his beliefs however wrong they are. I wish I could say the same for you.

Intercession is doing something on behalf of somebody. How do your prayers become Holy Spirit interceding for you?

Bidam:
It might do you good to quit using an english dico to define what intercession means in a loose and general term and use a bible study tool for the Romans 8:26 debacle. Don't mislead gullible folks here.

Now, that was a free lesson in sarcasm. Thank me and get serious.
What was the question?

Bidam:
Save the crap for your sunday school kids.

Am a Sunday school teacher and I like watching kids grow That's what am looking for in you

What was the question?

Bidam:
Ok, answer the question and stop playing to the gallery. The post wasn't meant for you, it was for shdemidemi on the groaning issue, so why dignify it to start with?

And you are deliberately muddying your ignorance when called out.
Christ blood was shed for everyone and in that sense he is a mediator between man and God. Having done that and. Moving into Heaven, there is NEW role He plays, interceding for us believers. If you want to understand what he is interceding for, look at the one intercession prayer he made in John 17.

The absurdity of claiming that Jesus is not in heaven mediating but his blood is is a testament to indoctrination. I can pick an Oyaks tape and you bet it will be there.

You want to demonstrate your arrogant ignorance by telling us exactly how his blood is in heaven is mediating in heaven for sinners or how his blood got there and where it is stored not to mention what anti-coagulants it has

mbaemeka:
^^^

Hebrews 12:24 KJV

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel

Feel free to call the scriptures terminal lunacy. You are only exposing yourself further and further. You have now also claimed that I said Christ's intercession is symbolic when all I have said all through is that Christ is interceding for the whole world and not just christians, unlike the Holy Spirit who does so for only christians.

You claimed Christ was only interceding for us and tried to relate it to the Holy Spirit's role in Romans 8:26 and I told you how both roles differ. To prove my points I asked you how Christ performs his intercessory role and what he aims to achieve through it but you could not answer me. You even mocked yourself by saying intercession was not for forgiveness but could not still tell me what it was for.

It is clear you do not know what Christ's intercessory role is and for whom he performs such roles for. So I charge you to keep mum and let those who have a clue discuss.

Here is your theology. There are enough witnesses of flip flop. In any case it is not against vooks that you stand or fall.

Christ's intercession is ALWAYS in His person and not symbolic. Look at those three verse closely. It is the resurrected and ascended Christ who does this. The same Christ who will return on earth is currently interceding.

His intercession in heaven is captured in John 17 prayer.
Blood of Jesus is impersonal and it is absolutely unscriptural to argue that it is Christ's blood and not Him interceding. There is no blood of Jesus outside Jesus which is why your theory of double ascension is terminal lunacy. And there certainly is no blood of Jesus somewhere in heaven pleading.

And EXACTLY how is this blood pleading? Care to explain this? Father sees a jar of blood before Him and His fading memory is refreshed and he remembers Jesus' death?

mbaemeka:
Jesus is not begging anyone. He never told us he would beg anyone. His sacrifice was perfect and complete. If he has to beg the father for anyone then it means his sacrifice wasn't good enough.
.

mbaemeka:
If you say his role as an intercessor is for only christians and that it had nothing to do with forgiveness then please show us what the role is. Also show us how he carries them out.

mbaemeka:
I have shown how Jesus intercedes for the world and how the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. You lot should tell us how Jesus is there in heaven begging the father to keep the saints saved or answer their prayers. Even when Jesus told us he would never do that.

mbaemeka:
He is not begging for me to be saved or to stay away from evil. Jesus is on the place of power now (the right hand) and the father is IN him. Jesus is not pleading to the father per se. Jesus blood is what is pleading that men can be saved and that saved men are still saved.

mbaemeka:
The other readers can judge what you are trying to claim all because you cannot answer the questions I asked.

How is he pleading for us? What is he pleading for? I dare you to answer it so we can see how it is exclusively for christians. Your answer will prove who is being dishonest here.

You are a dishonest man

mbaemeka:
Jesus as an intercessor, is he pleading with God on the christians behalf? How so and why seeing that they are already christians?

The Holy Spirit makes the intercessions THROUGH the believer.

You have just denied something you posted. You need to repent over lying. You are aggressive in defending your beliefs but it is a shame that a man who prides himself with immortality ,maturity and immense spiritual experience can tell a bold lie

mbaemeka:
1 John 2:1-2. I didn't say he doesn't intercede for the christians. I said he doesn't do it for the christians ALONE. It is for the whole world.

You are wresting with scriptures my brother


Romans 8:34 (ESV)
34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us

Hebrews 7:25 (ESV)
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrew 9:24 (ESV)
24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Once again, can you categorically say that as a believer you mr mbaemeka don't need ANY of Christ's intercession in heaven, and are excluded from the words highlighted in blue?

mbaemeka:
To understand why I said Christs intercession is not for only christians you need to understand what his intercessory role entails. What is he pleading for? How is he pleading?
I said it before that to us christians he is there to prove


that we are saved. To the world he is there to prove that they can be if they believe in him.
But when it comes to the Holy Spirit, his role was for only us because he performs that role while dwelling in us.

And may heaven be a witness to your inconsistency. Here you are posing a rhetorical question with a negative implication. Jesus is not interceding for Christians. But above you reverse yourself and now Jesus' intercession is not for only Christians

mbaemeka:
Jesus as an intercessor, is he pleading with God on the christians behalf? How so and why seeing that they are already christians?

The Holy Spirit makes the intercessions THROUGH the believer.

You don't need his intercession, right?

mbaemeka:
Jesus as an intercessor, is he pleading with God on the christians behalf? How so and why seeing that they are already christians?

The Holy Spirit makes the intercessions THROUGH the believer.

These verses restrict themselves to Christ sacrifice and not His intercession in Heaven

Again, Christ sacrifice is for everyone. Mediation is NOT intercession as used in the verses I just shared; it is ongoing in heaven. Is Christ still offering himself?

mbaemeka:
Gal 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5

To Intercede is to mediate.

Hebrews shows us Jesus as BOTH a sacrifice and a High Priest. It is very clear the sacrifice was offered once and for everybody but his role as an intercessor is different from his sacrifice and that's why he is still at it. Again read Hebrews 9:24,7:25 and Romans 8:34

I can't dignify your spiritual aberrations sir, am too busy.

Again, the intercession for the saints are Holy Spirit's not yours

mbaemeka:
The word mediate and intercede mean the same things hope you know. Also, your reasoning that the High priest only worked for God's people and not everyone is equally OP like most of your posts. Jesus did not die on the cross for God's people, he died for the whole world. Do you see how the OT high priests and he differ?

My question was not irrelevant but because you don't even understand what is being discussed you saw no reason to respond to them. If you say his role as an intercessor is for only christians and that it had nothing to do with forgiveness then please show us what the role is. Also show us how he carries them out.

Your last paragraph is as dumb as it gets. Jesus is in HEAVEN making intercessions. The Holy Spirit is in christians helping them while they pray and you are drawing a parallel. What parallel? Why didn't the Holy Spirit stretch his own hands to heal people? Why did he answer the apostles by using their own hands?

You have not shown any verse supporting Christ intercession for the world. Read Hebrews 9:24

mbaemeka:
I have shown how Jesus intercedes for the world and how the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. You lot should tell us how Jesus is there in heaven begging the father to keep the saints saved or answer their prayers. Even when Jesus told us he would never do that.