₦airaland Forum

I have a few question for tithers.

1. What else could have possibly been tithed apart from farm produce?
Let's take money. If indeed it was tithed, what was the point of tithing the produce? Why not just convert everything to money and take it to the temple? or say silverware. You buy twenty pieces and tithe two of them. But you bought the twenty using the 90% that remained after you tithed your money.


2. If it were proven (as it has) beyond doubt that tithing was restricted to farm produce, how would it affect you?

MarkMiwerds:
Josephus records the Temple as being 485½ feet long× 145½ feet wide.

The Bible records that the tithe of all things was taken to the Temple. No matter how much Image wants all to not mean agricultural only, the dimensions of the Temple reveal that cannot be the case. Anything more than farmer's crops being tithed .
would have demanded a much larger Temple

Wow!
Excellent observation Mark.
I never thought about it from this angle. The physical limitations of the temple debunking the 'tithe of all' theory.

MarkMiwerds:
Hey vooks,

Can you imagine what it would be like if Image's theory concerning tithes were true?

10% of all food, clothing, gold, silver, furniture, dinnerware, etc., would have to be tithed.

After all, the Scripture does say, "the tithe of all things", does it not?

Seems to me there would be no room for the Levites to live, seeing the are getting 10% of all those items. Tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of people taking all that stuff to the Levites in the forty-eight cities as the Law required..

Stuff piled in the streets because there was no room. Hezekiah sees the heaps and orders the storehouse to be built in the Temple. So thousands of items, chairs, beds, clothes, gold, silver, food, dinnerware, etc., are taken to the House of God and into the chambers as instructed.

Just how big was the Temple to hold all that stuff? RoFL

See where the theory that "tithe of all things" means everything was titheable leads? No room in the Temple at all for animal sacrifices and other Temple duties. I'm surprised the holy of holies was even useable for more than needed storage, LoL

Does he receive private gifts from church members?
I have seen many evangelicals claiming to have forfeited their monthly stipend/salary but they receive 'prophet's seed' and such (tips so to speak) that run into several times their forfeited salary.

The forfeiture is presented as a shining example of sacrifice and members are supposed to emulate but the average member can't match these unofficial income streams of the pastor.

Now, that's dishonest

stinggy:
Really?
He was sponsored through uni by an atheist.
Christians won't do that these days.


4. He draws/receives no salary from the work he does, instead the church sees to his upkeeps. The house he lived-in and the SUV he droves-in is owned by the church. He has NOTHING he can call his.

So what? Who owns the church?

Thank you sir.
This comes in handy in demonstrating their revisionism

I expect everything but brains,logic,sense,intelligence and wisdom from Mrs Dumbo Obtuse Esq.

Image123:
Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.


The demisquare version says "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich in previous dispensations, and he addeth sorrows with it to make us selfless."


The voks version says "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich before before, and he addeth no sorrow with it."

The spirikoko windowsx version says "The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich only spiritually, and he addeth no sorrow with it if He doth sovereignly chooses."

The Gnoni version says "The blessing of the LORD i dey looku looku, it maketh rich, and he addeth www.iamsofullofmyself.g no sorrow with it."

Luke 18:12. Don't be obtuse. Jesus gave the parable to people who never needed an explanation of what tithe is because they had already been instructed by Moses. So the least we can do is to apply our brains to EXACTLY what Moses taught about tithing because we, unlike the Jews were not taught tithing. So the verse does little besides referring you back to Torah.

Don't quote Abraham for he gave everything away, 10% to Melchizedek, 90% to the kings

2 Chr 31:6... Who asked for your fantasies in interpretation? how does 'the tithe of holy things' or 'a tenth of anything they had dedicated to the LORD' mean non-Agricultural?
Quit circular reasoning. If the tithe belongs to God, it automatically becomes holy thing,dedicated to God.
If I dedicate to God silver, I can't give Him 10% of it because ALL of it belongs to Him. So there is nothing like dedicating things and then giving to God a fraction of these. You give EVERYTHING you dedicate. The point is a tithe becomes holy things or dedicated things but holy things or dedicated things are not necessarily tithes


Once again, you are professional scripture contortionist sharing your hallucinations and traditions for the Word of God. There is no record in the scriptures of non-Agricultural tithing nor in history because God never required any of it. You like the Pharisee would have the world believe that you are the most obedient CHristian, that you keep the Law while in reality you mutilate the same to uphold man-made doctrines. You probaly think you are more righteous than the rest. Modern day Pharisee we have in you

Image123:
This is likely my last reply to you for now. i've satisfied and given you the needed explanations. i'm not here to convince you, encourage you or force you to tithe. If you or anyone has genuine questions about tithes and tithing, i'd answer as much as God permits and as much as i'm available. Meaningless back and forths with stereotyping bigots and extremists remains a great waste of time and resource for me. i've given you the benefit of doubt in replying you as genuine, where you seek to engage in rudderless circles is where i leave you to yourself. No bi by force.



Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

That scripture is a valid history evidence that shows jews tithed of more than just agric produce. If that one would not be enough for you, i know that ten more would not suffice. If a professing christian would not believe the Bible, i do not have any other evidence to waste my time showing him. Abraham also gave tithes of more than agric produce but what does that matter to you. Again, i would yet waste one more scripture on you for posterity.
2Ch 31:6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.
(CEV) The people from the other towns of Judah brought a tenth of their herds and flocks, as well as a tenth of anything they had dedicated to the LORD.


Jews offered tithes of holy things. holy things simply refer to dedicated, sanctified or devoted things. Holy things have a large variation as you may probably learn from Leviticus 27, they are not ONLY agricultural produce. There is NO Bible verse that says non agricultural tithes cannot be given or is unacceptable before the Lord. This ASSERTION remain a figment of the antitiher's imagination. It does not exist in reality.





i will say it again. Our posts are available for perusal. i do not know how many of them including me, that you can point to or show that they proclaim curses on antitithers. You don't know me or know my church as to make any assertive statements on what we do or do not do. Learn to drop your bigotry and extremism when interacting with others.


What you have written here is as meaningless as it gets. lemme look at it to pick some sense out of it yet again so that i can at least reply it. It's either you are diverting issues way off course or you are just not making sense. What is the relevance of these group of sentences? What do i pretend(whatever that means)?
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.



You could hardly refute what i said, or discuss intelligently. you cannot resist the wisdom of what i have written to you by God's grace. Repeating your ignorance like a religious person repeats his prayers is a total waste of time and life. NO SCRIPTURE says anyone is ineligible to tithe. When Jesus told the rich young ruler to go and sell his possessions among other things, i'm sure the devil did not deceive you enough to think extremely and foolishly that those possessions were his kids or wives. The same Jesus and the same Bible talks of what the jewish pharisee possesses and all the devil could pump into you was an extremist view devoid of common sense. That is not logic. We do need discernment, and we are not told that tithing is only from agriculture. The scriptures records and accepts tithes of both agricultural and non agricultural produce. You folks are so full of hypocrisy and reminiscent of your mentors.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

You would not tithe, and you would spend so much time telling others what and how to tithe in the most ridiculous of ways. You have your reward like your fathers.

It is not the verse that is absurd, it is your ignorant application of the same. Ignorance is what made jews terrorize Christians. THey had Torah and probably thought thehy were doing God a favor

Image123:
You referred to a bible verse as sounding absurd. That is as low as it gets, but what do you care. you think we are just having a debate and that appears to you a good defense. i don't get your message about your love or lack of it for atheists and acrobats, can you please stay on relevant discussion?

mbaemeka,
You know we are usually 'enemies' but on this subject we agree.

My biggest beef with shdemidemi is that he makes way too many assumptions and is least interested in anything more that repeating them.
While we are all unique in our style, I believe that when we dwell on a contentious issue and milk it dry like the snake incidence or Paul's 'pitiable of all men' remark, there is little chance for us to miss the truth. To your credit, you never shy from defending your beliefs most of the times. That's my personal philosophy; never cling to what you can't defend

For instance,He has repeatedly stated that tongue and tongues are different things. He further constructs several premises on this claim and holds them as facts. As long as these claims go unquestioned, you won't get nowhere with him

Can you get copies of these? Scanned that is

Were all these meant for 2013?

Bidam:
1. House of Representative to lose some members to death, prayers needed
2. Alhaji Bamanga Tukur will be the last united PDP Chairman, as there will be great in-fighting in PDP.
3. There will be major boom and breakthrough in the agriculture this year
4. CNN will lose major staff.
5. Nollywood will keep losing people unless prayers are made and repentance; Many have gone fetish and there is high rate of immorality. I see three major stars dying this year unless prayers are made.
See more after the cut...

6. Many barren women will become joyful mothers.
7. Emir of Kano Alhaji (Dr) Ado Bayero to pray against attempt on his life. He will lose some men.
8. Molester will be on the prowl. Molesting women little children and even pregnant women. watch where your kids go..
9. A sec deadlier than Boko -Haram is being trained and prepared.
10. South Africa to mourn a hero. They should pray for former South African president Dr Nelson Mandela and Arc-Bishop Desmond Tutu.
11. I see a Governor dying.
12. This year, the looting of National treasury will be on a massive scale.
13. President Goodluck Jonathan's own men from his place will fight him.
14. Igbos should forget about presidency.
15. In 2015, an opposition will lose, PDPD will fail.
16. I see the crisis in PDP widening more and more.
17. A yoruba movie actor to die surprisingly.
18. A year judgment for politicians and wicked leaders.
19. There will be scarcity of money in 2013, but food will be in abundance.
20. Chief of Defence Staff to be retired.
21. There is vacancy in Aso Rock.
22. Prayers to be made because I see the National flag flying half mask.
23. I see NUJ lose notable member through accident.
24. President Goodluck will lose someone precious to him either this year or next.
25. Auchi my hometown to pray against serious flood disaster.
26. A member of the United State of America's senate house will die.
27. President Barrack Obama's life will be attempted.
28. Alhaji Aliko Dangote will have issues.
29. Central Bank of Nigeria's governor will be made an Emir, but he needs prayers.
30. MTN needs prayers.
31. Massive retrenchment in Power Holding Company of Nigeria (PHCN), but prayers needed to avert it.
32. I see something happening in a foreign country ( natural disaster) and people could not fly in or out of that nation for days.
33. Nigerian Music entertainer Tuface Idibia will face blackmail and scandal.
34. Hon. Aminu Tambuwal ( Speaker) should not contest for presidency. If he goes for governorship, he will win.
35. Dame patience Jonathan will have health issues unless prayers are made.
36. Kidnapping will start in South Africa.
37. HID Awolowo, it is well.
38. The governor of Ondo to pray against poison.
39. President Robert Mugabe, I see death around him, he needs prayers.
40. Abuja the Federal Capital City will experience high scale attacks this year.
41. I see Traditional Rulers die.
42. Omega Fire Ministries (OFM) will witness worldwide recognition that will shock everyone.
43. Lots of Nigerians will be repatriated from African nations.
44. Oil will be found in a state
45. I see a new president.

Ok

shdemidemi:
Nah..He is a different person.

Wow!
Apologies sir. But I thought I saw Kun moniker here

shdemidemi:
hahaaha...

I am not being dishonest my friend. It is more of a personal property.

You do realize that Paul commended Jews ZEAL for God but prayed for them for the same was not according to KNOWLEDGE?
They had the Law, prophets,revelation, Messiah in the flesh but......
I'd rather an atheist any time than a professional theological acrobat who will quote anything to prop weak traditions of men

Image123:
You do realize that is not just my word but God's? It really is more than a debate, don't take it as one.

It is intellectual dishonesty not to quote your sources

http://lordwalkwithme.co.uk/tag/teaching/

Two questions;
1. What were the distinguishing marks of Pentecost and the accompanying feasts
3. How long did They last?

shdemidemi:
[size=4pt]One of the most misguided teachings in the body of Christ is the teaching and the preaching of Pentecost and post-Pentecost. Many have stopped at the presentation of Pentecost, forcefully wanting to have the experience again and again. We want to speak with new tongues (different dialect) and some want to lay hands on people to get baptized in the Holy Ghost. Some go to the extent of having miracles, signs and wonders programs because they have read it in the book of Acts with the intention of a having a “move of the spirit”; and therefore must have a replica of what happened on that day. They give a picture of when they want God to do the miracles and at what days they don’t want the miracles. Has God moved on from the Day of Pentecost or is He still there?

Many have been frustrated at their ploy of getting things done in the Church so as to replicate that day of Pentecost. There is so much error and many have taught that the purpose of Pentecost is to continue the same act, not knowing that Pentecost had its purpose. The confusion in the body of Christ, especially when we look at the many teachings and doctrines, can only be solved when the reason and purpose of Pentecost is made clearer.

Pentecost was coined from the three feasts celebrated by the children of Israel in the Old Testament.

PASSOVER

There was feast of Passover, which signified the death of the Lord Jesus. This was when the instruction came from God to His servant Moses, instructing them about the impending visit of the angel of death. The Israelites were to put blood on the two side posts and the lintel to the entrance of their houses. This is because at the visit of the angel of death, many would be killed but the house that had the blood on their doorpost and lintel would be saved. In other words, when the angel of death visited that country and sees the blood on some of the houses, that angel will PASSOVER without inflicting death on the people in that particular house but would bring doom to those houses without the blood


PENTECOST

There was another feast called the feast of PENTECOST (Shavuot in the Hebrew), in similitude to the day of Pentecost. It was called the Feast of Weeks, Feast of harvest in the Old Testament, celebrated on the day after seven weeks of celebrating Passover, which is the fiftieth day. This was the same as the Day of Pentecost celebrated after the Lord’s death. It is traditionally a joyous time of giving thanks and presenting offerings for the new grain of the summer wheat harvest in Israel. The name “Feast of Weeks” was given because God commanded the Jews, to count seven full weeks (or 49 days) beginning on the second day of Passover, and then present offerings of new grain to the Lord as a lasting ordinance. Shavuot was originally a festival for expressing thankfulness to the Lord for the blessing of the harvest. And because it occurred at the conclusion of the Passover, it acquired the name “Latter Firstfruits.” The celebration is also tied to the giving of the Ten Commandments and thus bears the name Matin Torah or “giving of the Law.” The Jews believe that it was exactly at this time that God gave the Torah to the people through Moses on Mount Sinai.

Feast of Tabernacle.

The last Feast that was celebrated was the Feast of Tabernacle, also known as the Feast of the Ingathering. The Feast of Tabernacle, which marked the closing of the harvest season for the Jews of ancient Palestine, is today celebrated by the taking of all meals in a lightly constructed booth roofed with thatch (a sukkah) to recall the shelters of the Jews when they wandered in the wilderness. It is likened to the birth of the Church where people who have received Christ into their lives as Lord and Savior are baptized into the mystical body called the Church.

From these three feasts, we can deduce that the celebration does not stop on the Day of Pentecost but the celebration went on through to the Feast of Tabernacle. Again there was nothing carried over or injected from one feast into another; they were all stand-alone feasts celebrated as instructed.[/size]

My brother,
Mark 12:24 (KJV)
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Acts 2:12-13 (KJV)
And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Jude 1:10 (KJV)
But these speak evil of those things which they know not


Some Saducees who never believed in resurrection attempted to demonstrate to Jesus the absurdity of resurrection. Read what Jesus said. The Saducees are still with us today, they know not the scriptures nor the power of God.

The Jews saw the 120 and were all amazed. Some got curious while other mocked this strange phenomena

And finally Jude tells us of those who excel in speaking of evil that which they know not.

I pray to God that you are neither a latter day Saducee, a mocking Jew nor one who insults the which he is ignorant of


Shalom my brother.

shdemidemi:
I rest my case on the issue. If you think you need to speak gibberish to get edified, Keep it up.

Nobody nowhere suggested infallibility of the men who gave us NT nor OT. Peter's epic hypocrisy tells us all.

What you are saying is you'd rather die before you show me any man because no such man exists nowhere. Jesus you will happily quote because He was God anyway not to mention a historical figure. 2000 years of Christianity have failed to produce any example. We have examples of healing, demons cast out, creative miracles, resurrection/revival of corpses but nobody who half-walks in this lofty level.


Let's stick to Pauline epistles.
1. Did Paul ever teach anything remotely resembling this 'level' which is no more than health,wealth and long life utopia?
2. If he did, could you please share the verses and if he didn't,do you think he was aware of the same only his fallibility/flesh failed him in attaining it?

mbaemeka:
Jesus himself for he is the template.

We love all the MOG in the bible even though they like us are not infallible. So my understanding of God's word should not be bordering on how Epaphroditus or Timothy responded to the same word. That's why I told you that Demas had a disagreement with Paul because he didn't want to 'Die daily' like Paul. So when push came to shove he ran away for dear life even though he may have remained a christian where he was. He just didn't have the same convictions with Paul.

Paul was not infallible himself (and I love him so this is not to disparage him). Paul had an obsession for his people- the Jews. So even in the face of all the prophecies from the Holy Spirit through other Christians and even the inner witness to himself, he still went to Jerusalem even after the Spirit had told him not to. It was by so doing that he got himself killed in Rome but then again that itinerary he made enabled us to have the book of Romans.

The point is that there was an awareness, a consciousness if you please, that Paul had that made him so successful while on earth. I like to call it a Christ Consciousness. For e.g, he said "we are EIDO (Conscious or aware) that all things work together for our good" but he said this in relation to his persecutions. When he said "if the spirit of him, that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwells in you. He that raised up Jesus will also VITALIZE your MORTAL BODY" he was conscious of the Holy Spirit's ability to keep us healthy in our Corruptible flesh.

That's all I need to know to believe that God wants me healthy and thank God there are many more scriptures saying so. Whether Timothy believed this message or not adds nothing or takes nothing away from it. GOD WANTS US IN PERFECT HEALTH. God said it, I believe it. . .and that settles it.

Are there some levels you believe Paul and his contemporaries never reached but you or somebody you know is sailing in?

You don't have to taste everything to believe. You don't have to have all the gifts to believe in them

I'd love to know example(s) of somebody who KNOWS that Jesus wants wealth,health and longevity for them. We readily associate Hagin with Faith. Let's put a name to this man of faith

Cheers

mbaemeka:
[size=4pt]Peter and John were both disciples but Peter couldn't ask Jesus some questions directly. Instead he told John to ask Jesus for him. What do you think was responsible for that?

Later Jesus told Peter the way he would leave this world, but he said nothing to John and when Peter queried Jesus told him it is not his business. What do you think was responsible for that?

Abraham had called God Jevohah but when God spoke to Moses he said Abraham didn't know him as Jehovah what was responsible for that?

Peter told Jesus that he was the son of God and Jesus praised him for that. Thomas Didymus called Jesus GOD and Jesus didn't say "Thomas you are going too far. I am only the son" what was responsible for that?[/size]

[ There are levels in God that you would never grow to if you cherrypick his words and tell him which you prefer to believe. Jesus said "if it were not so, I would have told you". Everything he said was true as he is not a liar and cannot even lie. The day that thought settles in your heart you would be re-awakened to the fatherhood of God and some of your unbelief will dissipate.

I was happy to see that you not only believe in tongues but that you also partook of such a wonderful gift. This means that from this level to the next one for you is not far. The level where you know (eido) that God wants you in perfect health, wealth, state of mind, shalom, security etc. That knowledge will not be revealed as some vision. It will dawn on you.

Cheers.

So you are saying that Gentiles were not supposed to speak in other tongues nor cast out demons?

shdemidemi:
It was written to the Jewish believers?

Those who believe what they preach.

My brother,
I was not privy to the Upper Room nor the Pentecost events and there is NO record of their prayers. You need to discard your thoughts and read the word. If theseDiasporan Jews heard the 120, then whatever the 120 were saying was audible. If I Pray audibly, the guy next to me will hear. If I pray in tongues, and a guy next to me understands the language am using, they will hear my prayers. Commonsense isn't it?

Paul says if I pray in tongues, my understanding is unfruitful EXCEPT I interpret. So I can pray in tongues without understanding what am saying but the next guy will understand because am praying in their dialect. How do you pray? If I heard you pray, would I hear you extolling God?

Let's look at a prayer recorded in Acts;
Acts 4:24- 30 (KJV)
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

If you heard this prayer, you would certainly hear God being glorified.

There is nothing for you to add save subject your traditions to the Hammer that is the Word of God.

shdemidemi:
You have said they were praying, you are yet to tell us what exactly they were praying for. Moreover, if they were to be praying why would the crowd need to understand what they were saying in their language. I taught it was suppose to be a language understood by the spirit alone.

Acts 2
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

They heard and understood what the people were saying. It did not stop there, they also grasped that it was the works of God they were speaking about.

I am not going to address this issue of praying or preaching anymore. If you disagree with me after all I have said so far, there is nothing more I can add.

My brother, now we are onto the authorship of Hebrews? This is irrelevant to this topic. You are digressing. Stick to the topic

For whom was Mark 16:17 written? Who are 'them that believe'?

shdemidemi:
I was not sent to cast out demons . The power to cast out demons is in God's hands. I have been sent to preach the gospel of the death, burial and ascension of Jesus Christ.


I know Apostle Paul isn't the Apostle to the Hebrews, not only because of what happened between him Cephas and James in Galatians 2 but because he said it himself that he was primarily sent to the gentiles.
Romans 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Personally, I think Paul wrote that book of Hebrew, some say Luke did, no one can be too sure.

My brother,
I don't know no Yoruba, just used the language for illustration. may be some day you could teach me some

About KJV, there are also many discrepancies therein; they have the word Easter in Acts, call Holy Spirit IT as if He is an object in ROmans and so forth. You and I are KJV lovers but the difference is I never hesitate reading other versions because I know the translators are fallible just as fallible as those behind other versions. SO I don't idolize one translation and elevate it above others. BTW, the KJV itself has undergone editing. AM sure you can't possibly read a 1611 version if your life depended on it
https://www.bible-researcher.com/kjv-heb.jpg

I don't know what gospel it is of casting out demons. I do know of Mark. Let's read mark

Mark 16:17 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

I also know that forty days after these words, believers were speaking in tongues and casting out demons. Were they were engaging in your 'gospel of casting demons'?

Once again quit ignoring my question. Can a 2014 believer (like you) cast out demons?

shdemidemi:
Now, Ajayi crowther did his best by translating the bible to yoruba. Recently, I noticed that some things were misinterpreted. This might not be Samuel Ajayi's fault but the reason might have been difficulty in finding words that is synonymous in meaning in the yoruba language.

If you are familiar with yoruba we can check one example, check what it says in Psalm 23. The english bible says the Lord is my shepherd, meaning I am the sheep.

The yoruba version translated it to be 'the Lord is the shepherd of my sheep', -'Oluwa ni olusho aguntan mi' which should have read 'Oluwa ni olusho emi aguntan re'.

We find this sort of discrepancies in many translations, that is why I say it is better to stick with the KJV.

Moreover, we have expository dictionaries and tools that also employ the use of KJV for complete understanding of every word.



They, the eleven. After Acts 12, a new Apostle started a ministry of grace. His name is Paul, he became the harbinger of the gospel that we must believe to be saved(1 cor 15:1).

The bible called him the Apostle to the Gentiles. He did not bring a gospel of casting out demons but a gospel of God unto salvation by God's grace. He never taught us how to cast out devils neither did he teach us how to speak in tongues.

Peter preached to the guys who had heard the gospel each in their own dialect a few moments before? Are you serious? What was he doing that the gift of tongues FAILED to accomplish in these Diasporan Jews? Recall it is Peter who led them to repentance NOT the tongues

Peter never said 'a few things in common language', in fact NOT all of what he said is recorded. Let's read;

Acts 2:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

He spoke at length. Read your Bible sir and discard vain traditions

shdemidemi:
Peter preached because he was the leader. it was an opportunity for a sermon, and he took advantage of it.

It is like saying, Nigerians were all gathered. Suddenly, the 120 spoke ibibio, hausa, ibo and other languages to testify about God's work. Does that stop the leader being Peter from putting the ice on the cake by saying a few things in a common language!

My brother,
WHAT BROUGHT THE MULTITUDE TOGETHER? according to Acts 2:6?

This is what Jesus commanded the disciples;

Acts 10:42-43 King James Version (KJV)
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

If you can get me a verse where this was done in a strange/unknown tongue(s) then you have a point. Wonders of God is not necessarily v42. It could be anything. AM not interested in tasking your brains to guess EXACTLY what wonders of God is. But I can tell you for free if WONDERS OF GOD is what Jesus commanded the disciples to share, then there was no need for Peter repeating the SAME things the SAME day to the SAME people. Unless of course speaking in tongues was a grossly inadequate tool for preaching. This is called deduction...it is an intellectual process of arriving at the truth by eliminating implausible alternatives

shdemidemi:
Go and check what the Luke meant by 'noise abroad'(also used in Luke 1:65), then we can talk. They had all gone their separate ways until Jesus revealed Himself to them. This was what revamped the service of God and the initiation of the Holy Spirit through these 120 disciples.



What does it mean to speak the works of God in the presence of an unbeliever? They did not just speak about the works of God there, they spoke it in each and everyone's local dialect.

Why is KJV the closest to the 'original'?
Explain to us intelligently why or what you mean by this statement

What about the non-English speaking believers? What is the closest to original for a Yoruba translation?

Demon possession among Christians is non of my business on this thread. You have shied away from my question which is whether a Christian in 2014 can cast out demons or whether that ability is redundant together with tongues. Nobody was sent to brawl demons yet they were given power to cast out demons as a sign.

shdemidemi:
Whatever spirit you choose to have isn't my problem. I have not said don't read other versions. How else can I put this.

I said KJV is the closest in meaning to the original. The more the translations, the farther they shift away from the original words.


And about taking you through other topics, it is not my fault, if you don't understand the fundamentals, how then will I explain the main issue.

One of such fundamentals is that a demon cannot cohabit with God in a believer. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
When you let that sink in, you will realise why I don't need to be looking for demons to brawl. Rather, I will present the truth(Christ) to an unbeliever and such person can be illuminated by the light through the power of God.

Could you please tell us what brought the multitude together?

I have told you it was the noise from speaking in diverse tongues simultaneously. Paul tells you outsiders are likely to mistake the church speaking in tongues simultaneously for mad people. It could also have been the mighty rushing wind that drew the Jews initially only for them to hear the 120 speaking in tongues. This is a very minor part of the narrative BTW.

What is clear is the 120 NEVER preached to the Diasporan Jews and proselytes in their own languages. They spoke wonderful works of God. (v11). Peter is the one who preached/addressed the Jews in ONE language they all understood.

IF they ALL preached in tongues strange to Galilee, then there was absolutely no point in Peter standing up (v11) to preach seeing thy had already heard the gospel from the 120

shdemidemi:
Those are your personal inferences. I will stick with scriptures here.

If you say they were praying in tongues, what exactly could they have been praying for:

could it be more empowerment?

or could it be more self edification, probably the empowerment of the Spirit was not enough.

Did KJV materialize out of thin air?
There were others besides it. Luther, Tyndale and so forth. Why stop at KJV. The only people who INSIST on a particular translation are word masters who know their fickle theories can't stand scrutiny. I will refer to ANY version I deem fit

Again there is no single version that has monopoly of truth. KJV has its fair share of errors and frankly, this is you in your element; digressing. SO it has now moved from Can a Christian be demon possessed to which version to use

KJV-Only-ism is cultish and sectarian just as Adventism. I say it is nonsense because it is not founded on logic but beliefs.


Go back through the last four threads and see how many issues you have raised without hammering them down. Did I not prophesy that with this galloping you will be here in 2024?

may be it hurts you endlessly that am completely impervious to illogic. I demand proof, i have the same spirit of Bereans, I stand by IT IS WRITTEN. I can't possibly apologize for loving Truth. Sir no Sir!

shdemidemi:
If you can not make your point sensibly, I might have to stop discussing scriptures with you. Apply some civility please. There is no monopoly to bad behaviour but I will not let this degenerate to that. Talk from the place of scriptural knowledge and stop all the unnecessary insults. Thanks.



May be if you learn to patiently read, you will comprehend what I am saying. I asked that we should stick with KJV here because all translations came on the back of KJV. It is the only version that link us to the manuscript.

We might not completely get a full picture of what scripture is saying when reading the watered down verses. I have not said don't read it if you want to.

First, that KJV-Only nonsense is repulsive. Who told you KJV is better than RSV? Can you proof this?
My brother read as many versions as possible, learn some Greek and get literal translations as well. This is besides chewing commentaries as many as you can. But before any of these, pray and study on your own.

And drop senseless literalism. If ALL nations under heaven was represented, were there some Australian Jews there?


Acts 2:5-6 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation of those under the heaven,
6 and the rumour of this having come, the multitude came together, and was confounded, because they were each one hearing them speaking in his proper dialect,

It is not necessary for EVERY Jew to have heard the prayers, word spreads...grapevine. A guy commits suicide by jumping off a building and in no time a crowd gathers. Did they all see the guy jumping? NO.

Remember from verse 41, 3,000 souls came to Christ. This means Peter must have been preaching to more than 3000. Obviously the Upper Room commotion drew onlookers and Peter came out to preach to them in Hebrews or Aramaic since they were all Jews

shdemidemi:
Bro, we had better stick with KJV here. It is the only translation that link us back to the original words(manuscript) that were used and in the right context.
Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

[color=#000099]6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[/color]

The bible says every nation under heaven was represented here. Are you saying they were all listening to Peter and the rest outside the room?

What man are you talking about?

1.Mark 16:16-17 talks of signs that shall follow believers. One of the signs is casting out demons. The other is speaking in tongues.
2. We observe BOTH signs in Acts.
3. You claim we are too mature for signs so we don't need tongues today

Can you also say we no longer need the power to cast out demons since we are mature?

The disciples too were sent to preach to gospel. The signs were supposed to follow them and they did follow them as they preached the gospel. That fickle argument of mutual exclusivity won't hold. It is not either cast out demons or preach the gospel, BOTH were commissioned

shdemidemi:
1) The man possessed by demons was not a christian. Just one name of s demon possessed christian will suffice.


2) I know signs or tongues are not for me. I am an embodiment of God's glory by the grace of adoption through Christ.

1 cor 14

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

We have not been sent by Christ today to cast out demons but to preach the gospel. Therein lies the power of God that fortifies anyone who believe.

Sound can travel outside a room housing men. Is this rocket science? It is not attending a meeting that makes the man/outsider think they are mad, it is the HEARING of the diverse tongues coming from the group simultaneously. The noise is what attracted the crowd on Pentecost

Acts 2:4-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.

shdemidemi:
So the multitude from all the nations went into that building that housed the 120 before the empowerment by the Holy Spirit?

You are digressing.
1. There is a CLEAR sign of casting out demons in Mark 16:16-17 alongside speaking in tongues available to BELIEVERS. Are we in agreement on this?
2. Whether the power was to be practiced on believers or non-believers is a non-issue here
3. Dwelling on 2 is wasting time

Once again, Jesus spoke of signs and among them was casting out demons. Is casting out demons relevant for the 2014 believer?

shdemidemi:
This is where you are completely missing the point. If you do not rightly divide the word, how can you understand the things that have been freely given by God through grace.

Was the possessed man a christian?

Please give me just one name of a person within the church under the disensation of grace that got possessed.

If you can't we can proceed to explaining what it means to be a christian.

You may want to start by circumcising your ..... because it is your own and it won't be evil in our eyes

That's how absurd you sound

Image123:
Matthew 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

They were PRAYING in one accord. It is the noise emanating from that upper room that attracted men.

1 Cor 14:23 (KJV)
If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

This is EXACTLY what happened on Pentecost; a group of 120 praying loudly in diverse tongues simultaneously. Outsiders be like, ' they drunk' Others got curious. See, when it comes to the Spirit, there are always these two; the ones who revile what they don't understand, and the others who get curious. You have been busy reviling the Work of Holy Spirit here instead of getting curious. You can bet it is the latter (curious) who were converted and they recieve the very same thing that attracted them

shdemidemi:
What were the 120 doing that attracted all the people?

Did they just storm out to the street to pray to God for self edification in other people's language?