₦airaland Forum

dmandy:
Lox,

It's you who have failed to disprove any of those.

I have schooled you in logic and reason and nothing has gotten to past your skull?

You make a claim, you prove it. If you can't prove it, you withdraw it

dmandy:
Just go ahead and prove to me that the woman had other children. It's that simple.

Matthew 12:46-47 (KJV)
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Your favorite hobby is failure;
1. You failed to prove that Mary is in heaven from Revelation 12 or anywhere else
2. You failed to prove that Mary had no other children from Ezekiel 44
3. You failed to prove that Mary was sinless

dmandy:
Rushing from one post to another does not provide evidence against perpetual virginity of Mary. You asked that I roll with you to which I agreed, You ask me questions and I provide answers and I ask you mine. let's focus on one issue and talk it down. It shouldn't be about winning or loosing arguments but saying truth and maintaining it.

What we need is evidence that a woman married for at least 12 years and with children so identified by others as hers was a virgin all along. This in law would amount to circumstantial evidence against this claim. Scriptures tell us that up to the point of Jesus conception and birth she was a virgin.
-We refuse to read between the lines,
-we refuse to assist Holy Spirit with inspiration,
-we refuse to read our ideas onto the text
- we refuse to make dastardly claims and demand other disprove them
- we refuse to take as evidence of our claims their inability to disprove them

We DEMAND that those reciting these mantras and dogmas substantiate them.

Recall nobody has monopoly of ludicrousness; I can also claim that Peter's wife was a perpetual virgin and that Peter himself had two joysticks, and one was thrice as long as the other one.
What stops me? Reverence for the Word of God, and of course a dose of some good old common sense

Cc italo,ichiato,brocab,KingEbukaNaija,Ayoku777,Syncan the high priest

I wish to illustrate the absurdity of these Catholics Satanists' demand for evidence that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

We all know that to date, there is no evidence of life anywhere else in our galaxy outside our beloved planet Earth. But there has been some earnest search for life in space with special focus on Mars given both its proximity to earth and its similarity to our planet. But even in Mars, there has been no evidence of life.

Supposing a Catholic Satanist claims there is a colony of humans living some 500KM beneath the surface of Mars.
We'd remind him that there has been no evidence of such to date to which they insist that it is only because we haven't looked hard enough and our search has focused on the surface.

When we attempt to convince him that humans can't possibly survive in the subzero temperatures,low gravity,and negligible Oxygen atmosphere of Mars, they are adamant that we MUST dig 500KM into Mars to disprove them, and if we can't disprove them, then they are entitled to their claim!

Question
Should my inability to disprove ridiculous claims be taken as the strongest or even only evidence of these claims?


Reminds me of Donald Rumsfield as the then Defense Secretary. When pressured for evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, he infamously quipped that "absence of evidence is no evidence of absence'
But we are not interested in what is not evidence of absence,but in evidence of presence of WMD which is what you claimed


Likewise, we need...no, we demand evidence for the positive claim of Perpetual Virginity.
Absence of this evidence does not mean Mary was not a perpetual virgin, but rather there is no basis for making this claim in the first place

Cc KingEbukaNaija,Ayoku777,ichiato,italo,ubenedictus,dmandy and Syncan the high priest

analice107:
God bless you brethren. This dialogue has broken me the whole day. I never saw in this passage what the Holy Spirit showed me today. I have always thought that God does things in my life for me. Today I know that it's all for others, not even for Himself. But For those who are lost, to raise questions in them, then in seeking answers, they could draw close.
I pray to be a useful vessel. For when you make unselfish a willing vessel, you won't regret it, bros you can not show forth God's Glory and not glow yourself.

Throughout this day, I asked for grace to be that vessel, fit for his use. The grace to know when am walking faster than Him.

If he speaks, I will share.

May He grant us the grace for obedience.
God is not wicked.

Thank you Anas09, that was truly inspired, I'd call it a 'sermon and a half'

KingEbukaNaija:
@ dmandy . I dont think any elucidation is needed after this wonderfully explained rebuttal and I wonder why dmandy is still obdurate . dmandy , are you scared of losing your Catholic faith ? Cos its more like it . Your evidence in support of the perpetual virginity of Mary gets weaker at every subsequent response you give .

King,
May I add that Christianity is full of extraordinary claims such as the Virgin Birth, walking on water, feeding thousands with two loaves, raising the dead, forgiveness of sins, promise of resurrection, transfiguration

The difference between these claims and Perpetual Virginity is that all I have mentioned have ample evidence inside the scriptures. The authors clearly not only believed them but they noted them intending to share them with others.

Continuous/perpetual virginity not to mention sinlessness of another barring Jesus Christ verily demands and deserves as much evidence as all these. Unfortunately, there is none whatsoever. This is the reason Catholicism Satanism borrows HEAVILY from the apocrypha for their core doctrines. It is also the reason their authority is derived from scriptures and 'Tradition' or teachings of men.

Once again, I remind all these Catholics Satanists;
1. Virginity is no miracle; virgin conception is the miracle. Mary living a virgin after that is no different from the countless who were born and died virgins
2. Perpetual virginity AFTER Jesus' birth adds no value to the gospel account,
3. Perpetual virginity is defied by the circumstance of Mary; she is married, the author reminds us Joseph kept off her UNTIL Jesus was born, Joseph lived with her at least for 12 years( coming from the age of Jesus when He got lost-Luke 2:42-43)
4. There is zero proof or claims from the scriptures for this
5. Sex among the married is honorable. So Mary having sex after Jesus with her husband is perfectly godly

#5 is important especially given Catholicism Satanism romance(pun) with celibacy. Is sex a distraction from worship?
Topic for another day


PS
I have read elsewhere than Mary is called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. Catholicism Satanism knows no bounds when it comes to blasphemy. The depths of Satan are deep indeed!


Cc dmandy,italo,ichiato,ubenedictus,brocab,Syncan the high priest

analice107:
Okay, but does it have any spiritual undertone?

Personally, I don't think so, but depending on the size, they can be a real nuisance to some, for me, it's just a tiny speck I only see when I choose to focus on it

analice107:
@vooks, what's a floater again?

Hi Anas09,
Let me explain by a diagram
[img]http://nei.nih.gov/sites/default/files/nehep-images/eyediagram.gif[/img]
The eye is basically a 'ball' full of transparent fluid called vitreous gel. For some reasons some linings of the retina wall come off and they float in the gel. These if large enough cast a shadow on the retina and can be noticed as dots which move around as your eye turns. These shadows are called 'floaters' as they appear to float in space in front of your eyes. Think of wearing glasses with a speck or a har strand on them. Everything you look at, you see the speck/hair 'in front' of it. Mine is a tiny strand like 1/20th of a toothbrush strand in size. Totally negligible, and only visible in bright light

HIbreed:
the floater is not dispersed and scattered abroad like the others. Even after learning about floater i found it hard to erase the thought that it is 'another' ordinary floater. it was articulated and arranged properly,it is a work of art!!!
I want to know the floaters you see,how are they like. Mine is like floating tiny crystals with web like appearance dispersed carelessly,it changes shape on each blink or should i say random glance,that means you can't ascertain its definite shape.

Until I read about this I had forgotten about it. It looks like a mosquito larvae only a fraction of its actual size.

I can't argue with your conviction that it's something else bro. The light test tells me all I need, but I understand they are of different shapes and sizes and they elicit different reactions across individuals.

dmandy:
Thanks so much for the invitation and for keeping it civil, bro. I will sure roll with you.


Jesus is not Joseph seed, great. Now is it not the same passage that told you that Jesus had biological brothers that also said Jesus is a son of a carpenter? Do you choose to believe one and leave the other?

Scriptures are mighty clear that concerning Jesus, Joseph was THOUGHT to be his father. That the Inspired hand goes to this extent to clarify it for Jesus and not for any of his brothers is strong evidence the rest were Joseph and Mary's children. Blood children that is

Luke 3:23 (KJV)
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Secondly, Jesus had biological siblings in EVERY sense of the word for if your mother had a child by another than your father, would that not be your sibling?

So there is no inconsistency in KingEbukaNaija as you are trying to insinuate.

Well, teaching about heaven and hell were passed from Jesus, yes. What about teachings on marriage? I used to think Jesus taught about marriage. Don't you think so? Am I ruling out the possibility (you called it factual certainty, with possibility attached) that he could be married? Are you ruling out the possibility that he could not be married? Bro, there are at least two sides to every possibilities. By the way St. paul said he was not married.

Paul was single at some point, whether he was married before or not is unclear. His single hood may have been borne out of bereavement or just he was never married.

No Sir, its not obvious that the gates were literal. Go back to that passage, that was a vision, the temple didn't exist anywhere... actually that vision like most was symbolic and never literal. Btw, I doubt if we have discussed anything about any woman's private part here, or have we?

The fact that Ezekiel saw the temple in a dream is not what makes the gate literal or symbolic; what determines this is the context of the vision. Ezekiel saw elaborate design, he was given the temple's blueprints complete with restoration of the Levitical priesthood.

If the East gate represents a woman, the Northern and Southern gates would EQUALLY represent a human. This is proven by the New Jerusalem John sees in Revelation where each gate represents each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Besides, all gates serve the same purpose in Ezekiel's vision namely conveying worshippers into and out of the temple. The East is shut AFTER the Lord goes through it. Remember this is FUTURISTIC as the temple was yet to be constructed. It tells you all the gates remained open UNTIL the Lord went through the East one which was shut. But this is a minor point.

Back to the three gates. Whatever you make of one you MUST make of the rest

I am yet to see the passage that refutes perpetual virginity, if you bring up any, I will agree with you.

Don't attempt to shift the burden of proof on us. It is Catholicism Satanism that makes Perpetual Virginity claims. Any Protestant is INDIFFERENT to Mary's virginity AFTER Jesus. We simply follow common sense thus;
1. We are told Joseph never touched her until Jesus was born. To this you may claim that UNTIL does not necessarily qualify the continuity of an activity which in this case is Joseph's abstinence. But if Joseph never knew Mary and the author knew this, was there a better time to indicate this than here? And if indeed Joseph never touched Mary, what's the point of this qualifier?

2. Jesus had other siblings and this was commonly known to those who knew him. These are called his brothers and sisters

3. Joseph married and stayed with Mary at least until Jesus was 12. Why would he go without knowing her yet he married her?

4. Such crucial doctrine as perpetual virginity is totally absent from the scriptures

5. Perpetual Virginity myth is wholly redundant to the gospel for what purpose would continuous virginity post Jesus' birth serve?

All these strongly point us away from the perpetual virginity myth.
As they say, Extraordinary Claims demand Extraordinary Evidence. It is Catholicism Satanism claims that MUST give us evidence. If their best evidence is Ezekiel 44:1-2 , this is circular reasoning as we have seen, not to mention illogical.

Perpetual Virginity is one of those idiosyncrasies of cults. They will oft times cling to doctrines for the sake of it when it's clear such are not central to their core teachings. The most likely reason is because it is 'too late' to discard such without other unintended consequences such as casting aspersions on their infallibility claims.

Cc KingEbukaNaija,Syncan,ichiato,italo,ubenedictus

HIbreed:
i cannot see it in darkness, on a bright day,when i closed my eyes,i can still see that particular one hence all other tiny floaters disapper. It appears as if its a sign,something like a wand. you know a floater cannot be drawn because its indistinct and inacurate but this particular one is very glaring and easy to be drawn.

The size of a floater determines the size of its shadow so I'd guess one of these is bigger than the rest. That it takes light to see it means it is just another floater. Note, bright light somewhat gets through your eyelids hence the red you see with your eyes shut. This explains why the floater is still visible with your eyes shut but under bright light.

There is no medical procedure for removing it but with God, nothing is impossible.

HIbreed:
i,ve researched about it before,i found it was normal too but what bafflesme was that i can see ordinary tiny floaters like blurry eyes do capture,but this particular floater is distinct,different,and with a shape that spells mystery. Thats why am Inquisitive to know more.

Can you see it in pitch darkness or like when you totally cover your eye?

HIbreed:
can you explain the mystery of seeign a particular crystal floating object like the shape of a snake with my right eye.I cannot feel it nor touch it, sometimes it tweaked its appearance a tad bit,i can change its direction and shape by moving my eye sharply pointing to that direction.it started since my childhood,i can't explainthe meaning of this.I,ve seen and heard demons on two occasions before.

I have such a floater on my right eye. I researched on it and found it to be a natural phenomena
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=7945

But if you can see stuff even in absence of light, then that'd be different

Ubenedictus:
A house built on sand. they continue sinking on it.

We'd rather be divided in truth than united in Satanism

Ubenedictus:
When u've gat ur charity back mention me, till then keep off my mention.

When you evolve a brain, come debate, else vamooz out of my sight

Ubenedictus:
U may provide proof to the contrary, if not taje ur own advice and zip it.

Negro, as usual, it is you to back your claims.

Jesus was a Catholic

mrZENographer:
Ask God for understanding. If you have problem go to the Church/ an anointed man of God that have the power in the name of Jesus to heal you. Thats what i meant by go to CHOSEN.

Do you have the power in the name of Jesus yourself?

Jameselias:
First of all, no body is a witch or a wizard as no one is born as a witch or wizard,
unless he or she learns the secret craft and practice it he/she can not be refered to as one.

Utterly irrelevant and moronic, nobody is born speaking Igbo, they learn

More over pay attention to the word 'CRAFT ' witchcraft or wizardery, is no doctrine denomination or religion, rather every religion practices some aspect of it, in varying degress, (e;g. Prayer and singing or chanting of koran )
But i know w're talking about true practitioners of the craft, which i'm one of,
now the word is in two fold first u have the WITCH & then u have the CRAFT,
WITCH MEANS WISE,
OFCOURSE U NO WHAT A CRAFT, IS,
therefore it's definition is thus -; CRAFT OF THE WISE.


So now let me hear ur rubbish vooks.

Now dear Neanderthal, are you a witch?

Syncan:
I keep asking you to think, but obviously you're not gonna do that. Protestantism started in the 16th Century, around 1507 actually. By then, Christianity has been on earth for about one thousand five hundred years. Spread by Catholics throughout the earth, [size=1pt]at a time, Catholics who honored Mary,worked hard and compiled a bible to help the Catholic Church teach one faith, one Lord and one baptism. From the time the Catholic church canonized (authenticated as scripture) these set of books (out of the many being used in various places) to the time of the Protestant revolt, was about one thousand two hundred years. Through out these years, the Catholic Church nurtured by her mother, the ever blessed virgin Mary, preached the gospel to all nations Mk.16:15, baptized peoples Matt.28:19,laid their lives down for Christ Phill.1:21, and God showing his presence, wrought numerous miracles through them Acts.5:12. For one thousand five hundred years the Catholic Church withstood the gates of hell, till it was "end time" when the Protestantism dragon appeared, to cast a third of the "stars" down Rev.12:4.. Now Cast down stars are telling the rest up the skies that earth is better. Think brocab, think. God bless you as you do[/size].

Why do Catholics Satanists imagine any faith on earth before reformation was Catholicism? No different from Muslims who flap gums about Jesus, Moses being Muslims

PastorAIO:
If Mary had other children besides Jesus then why should she leave her able children to move into the home of John?

I can think of a dozen reasons why Mary would move into the home of John'
1. Moving into the home of John is a figment of your imagination
2. John could have been the more able if indeed she did move
3.


In the interest of time and space I stop there. Point is this very act proves zilch in favor of Mary's perpetual virginity or want of biological children, for think; even if all those kids readily identified as hers severally were 'cousins' or step-kids, would they not have been better placed to look after her than a totally non-blood relation?

PastorAIO:
I say you have. I could be wrong in which case rather than have me go on a wild goose chase in which I might never find the post why don't you just state it categorically her for the record:

Jesus acknowledged Mary as his mother and called her so. Those passages where Jesus calls her woman have no bearing on the filial relationship he had with her.

Can you say the bolded?

You will need to quote me or zip it

As to those words, they may/may not have any bearing to nothing

Appleyard:
I have heard you. If justifying a lie based on the notion of ''all days'', is an acceptable norm to thee, then you can go ahead. After all, we all are free moral agents. But one thing is clear, and that is the scriptures: a lie is a lie, no matter sugar coated. Just as you alluded about us humans celebrating our birth days, but you didn't remember that ONOS JP dont celebrate his birthday premised on a lie by adopting a completely false date, rather than the original known to him.

But like we said, the choice is yours to live either the truth or the lie. Whichever way, God and His word remain unchanged.

There are reasons against December 25th birth of Jesus Christ, one shouldn't settle on any date without proof.

But look at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are commanded to take the Lord's table in remembrance of His death yet we have no idea when He died. It means you don't need an exact date of His birth either to commemorate His birth. The date of Jesus' birth or death is immaterial to commemorating His birth or death respectively

KingEbukaNaija:
I dont know why our catholic brethren are holding unto one or two verses and suppressing all other evidences that refute their weak claim . There are overwhelming evidences that utterly destroys that mendacious claim .

They give their own meaning now . How can gate mean some's birth canal ? Italo show face oo and help your brothers

The proof for Mary's sinlessness and perpetual virginity is a book called Protoevangelium of James.These Catholics Satanists are not about to disclose this to you because they know their goose is cooked, so they are left with the Holy Scriptures which not only never support them but work AGAINST them

Wow so couldn't answer any of the questions sincerely but you want to with certainty rule out sinlessness. Nice try

You are confused

Jameselias:
first define what ur mind tells u a witch or wizard is,
lets see if it's not nollywood cock and bull story ,

I will work with whatever definition you have in mind

PastorAIO:
BINGO!!

Now can you apply your reasoning here to the claims that Jesus never called Mary 'Mom'?


I believe that we're starting to make progress. Well done!!

Who said Jesus never called Mary 'mother'?
Are you mistaking me for somebody else?

oracle2012:
To answer all your guestions about catholic faith using bible read my posts on nairaland and visit www.Bibletruthsaboutcatholics. to see bible evidence

Troll, are you diverting traffic to your shoddy blog?
Shame on you Negro

Jameselias:
HAIL !! Alfaseltzer !!!
HAIL !!! SATAN !!!!

Where are witches and wizards?

ValentineMary:
mtchewww

Grow a brain

MuttleyLaff:
With Deuteronomy 23:12-13 in mind, there is a mention of a toilet of some sort in the bible
however nowhere in the bible do we read that anyone specifically or somebody in particular ever went to the toilet(s)
Haba! Going to the toilet, sitting on the throne, is not something deemed uncommon for Jesus to do

Thank you my broda!

PastorAIO:
Okay o, some bodily functions but not all. Only those bodily functions that we read about in the bible.

After Jesus digested the food what happened? Did the food just rapture from his belle? Because nowhere in the bible do we read that Jesus ever went to the toilet.

Argument from silence, huh?
We are not told of Barthlomew's parents, does that mean that Barthlomew was/is eternal?

Personally in is my doctrine that food automatically raptured from his stomach.

Why do you eliminate what NATURALLY happens to food in human body?

ValentineMary:
It seems u have not been ff my comments since. If u have you would have noticed that I defined it 3 times.

That was why I ignored you.

I aksd you to define evolution before giving 'proof' for evolution and you haven't. Why should I give you airtime?