₦airaland Forum

welcome to NL

MadTV
the preppy (abercrombie) gay guys are also hilarious

babyosisi:
remember the passage said speak not preach.
catholics don't have female priests and America is yet to have a female president.

Go Hilary!!!!!

America is a progressive country (like many other western, developed countries)

Middle eastern and Islamist nations aren't
And this exactly is the problem islam is facing.

babyosisi:
mormons are a cult,let's not go into that today

lol

It doesn't even take one to be Holy Ghost filled to realise that Paul was writing to a very disorderly Church,admonishing them in conduct while in the church.[b]
Only God knows how rowdy these women were [/b]and the chaos the Church was experiencing
The last verse is the clincher.

lol
i see.

this is YOUR interpretation anyways.
Mormons interprete their bible to allow for polygamy as you know.

No Church that I know anywhere on earth forbids women from speaking.
Women preach,teach bible study,sing,lead church groups,baptize,lay hands in all churches that I know.
Give me an example of a church that forbids a woman from speaking based on this verse
where women are banned from speaking,
I did not say being ordained,speaking is the key word here.Christians realize to whom and for what purpose that command came,read the above verses again and if you cannot tell me one bible beieving church that a woman has never been allowed to speak,then you have no case.

Yes.
I can't give you an example of where women are banned from speaking because I (and you) live in the 21st century where everyone has equal rights to speak (even the youth)

But as i mentioned earlier, churches used to forbid women from speaking until quite recently with all the feminist revolution and what not (which was headed predominantly by the quaker church).

read my previous post. Some churches still hold the conservative view and hasn't gone with the flow of allowing women with these rights yet.

Oh wait!! I CAN give you an example of a church where women aren't allowed to preach on the pulprit. Goodguy's church comes to mind. ask him when he comes on here and he'll tell you.
Also, Catholics. There has never and most likely won't be a female pope or female priests, bishops.

the more recent churches however (pentecostals come to mind) are the most fervent with the rate of female pastors.

In general though modern christianity is not exactly what early christianity was like.
I placed "modern" in bold for a reason.

I don't know if there is such thing as modern islam though (at least not to the extent christianity has modernized)
islamic feminists, female preachers e.t.c are beginning to appear so we never know.

[quote author=bari_kade link=topic=25738.msg833104#msg833104 date=1169428528]@WeslayanA,

I will not pretend knowledge that I don't yet have; however, the one funny thing I find people always doing is that they quote Judaistic laws to buttress their arguments against Christianity. There is no such law as Deut.22:29 passed onto Christians in the NT, and perhaps the reason for this is found in I Tim. 1:8-11 -

"⁸But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; ⁹Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, ¹⁰For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind (homosexuals), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; ¹¹According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."

I believe that the OT helps us understand where we are coming from so that we can better appreciate the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Unless anyone can successfully prove that Christians are under the Mosaic Law when the Bible clearly says we are NOT, then it makes me wonder why people want to hold Christians accountable to what God doesn't hold them accountable to.

Indeed, there are so many young people who have rare gifts of insight - and though I, for one, may not agree with their ideas or persuasions, it really won't hurt to acknowledge the scholarship and insight of such rare minds. I think I've come a long way to changing some of my previously held concepts (and may I add, biases) after having been exposed to a wider sphere to see things first hand.

Blessings.[/quote]I agree with you but

some Christians like to select what they feel like from the Old Testament. or "Select Practice" as i'll like to call it.
Not that there is anything wrong with it.
The world and people's perceptives have changed
and many of the things don't apply to us

following every word of the bible (OT and NT) will only lead to the problems Muslims are having right now.


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

Yeah polygamy in the bible might be more prominent in the Old Testament and those rules can be "abolished" i guess. lol
but the first passage I quoted in my previous post is from the New Testament (Corinthians). I don't know how one will defend that misogynistic verse.
Many churches of nowadays, however,allow women to preach in contradiction to what that verse says. Again, this has to do with the world changing (or God's plans for change?) which is good.

The Bible is still the Bible nevertheless. If you claim the OT laws to be void, why aren't the OT ten commandments void? How come those can still be used to justify christian assertions even though Jesus already 'replaced it' with the ultimate commandment.


Again, I'm not trying to be all anti-bible here. I'm only trying to create a parallel on this issue with the quran.
There are growing numbers of Islamic feminists that are doing this same thing of highlighting the gender equality of the quran and ignoring the biased ones.

But when it comes to faith, I always go by what the Bible says than what opinions people express - and there again, I should not expect everyone to accept my views; for afterall, they're just mine.

I respect you for that.

[quote author=bari_kade link=topic=25738.msg833070#msg833070 date=1169426632]Well, I just thought she might be kidding about that number, though I don't mean it in any derogatory sense.

Even though I may not agree with some of her views on issues, I think she sounds quite intelligent for that age! There are indeed many people twice that age who can't even articulate a sensible sentence. Just wait to meet them on other fora, and then you'd wonder. Oh well, just my opinion anyway.[/quote]there are a lot of young people with sound opinion
but then with people (like Davidylan) that would not seize to paste the fact that you're young (*and therefore dumb, immature, e.t.c*), many young people are discouraged from voicing their opinion.
I ain't scared though.

recently, a 9 year old's letter in response to an article in the NYtimes was acknowledged, reviewed and printed.
now that's something i've never seen before.
Davidylan (if he owned NYtimes, God forbid. lol) would have discarded that letter at first sight.

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Davidylan, proove it that there is no gender bias in the bible (like you mentioned).
'cause i see that all the excitement from poking fun at some of the quran's misogynist verses (in previous pages of this thread) is getting at you.

Why also would there be a need to create a movement for biblical equality if it didn't exist in the first place?https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/CBE_Logo.gif

The Quakers were one of the only progressive christian sects that allowed for equality in their churches starting in the 17th century("Quakers were heavily involved in the 19th century movement for women's rights in America; the landmark 1848 Seneca Falls Declaration was in large part the work of Quaker women, and has numerous Quaker signatories, well out of proportion to the number of Quakers in American society at large"
http://www.npg.si.edu/col/seneca/senfalls1.htm)

some passages in the Old Testament are some of the most disturbing things i've read (I bet there are also equally or maybe worse stuff in the quran). like females being forced to marry their rapist

28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.
Deuteronomy 22: 28


But does this mean that Christianity is a false religion? NO!!

davidylan:
Thanks for the advice. I thought so too and stopped arguing pointlessly with someone who says there is gender bias in the bible simply because her "pastor" thinks so too despite the glaring statements from the bible.

Like you rightly said, she's 17! I had to find out when i argued with her once and i was having difficulting figuring out if she was just plain daft or too young!

You stopped arguing because you had nothing else to defend.
You cannot proove a religion as illegitimate based on the content of scriptures. And your 'around the bush' arguments proved that.
There IS gender bias in the Bible. Even my pastor agrees with me is this point (why would I base my opinion about the bible on what a pastor tells me when I have one of my own to read ? I only used him as a source of authority as he is more knowledgeable on the bible than I am). It's time for you to quit twisting my words to make yourself sound good.

You mere two quotations from the bible is not evidence enough. Can you tell me why the pronoun "HE" is used to refer to God and also why "MAN" is used throughout the Bible If men and women were indeed equal.
I'm not saying the gender bias is something terrible or anything since i wouldn't imagine that there were female authority figures during the lord's time.

but why complain about gender bias in the quran? and use it in the process to judge all muslims.

Your last statement by itself i'm not really concerned about. (and this to Babyosisi as well) It's your problem if you find discussion with a 16 year old as being below your 'standards.'
I guess it's a "Nigerian thing" maybe not? lol

I do not consider myself inferior to any human. not even if you're 60yrs old.

babyosisi:
davidylan,please try as much as possible to ignore weslayan.
After some discussion on a thread regarding why African Americans are underachievers,her statements were so bizarre that I and several others including thiefofhearts enquired to know if she was breastfed by a full blooded Naija woman.

I came to a conclusion based on several other things she said,that she was at best a junior in high school and so understood where exactly she was coming from.
This is not meant to be insultive,the girl is still reading for SAT (WAEC),it is a futile effort attempting a discussion with her.

You didn't have to exaggerate it to that extent. My statements weren't bizarre. They come from my perspective and point of view as a student (living in a segregated part of the city and attending an extremely diverse high school). Actually, I found some of your statements really weird.

I am Nigerian but that doesn't mean that i'll agree with all Nigerians comments against African Americans. I state my opinion and not what others expect my opinion to be.

I'm a senior by the way. 16 years old.

your conclusions about me weren't self derived. I mentioned it myself that i was a high school student.

my last post on this thread. I'll come back for you tomorrow.
you still haven't proved to me how Islam is a bad religion. even if we went a little off topic

If you base it on just the book (written centuries ago) you most definitely will find faults with it just like you would find faults with the bible (also written millenas ago).


so yeah. based it on the culture and level of civility of those who practice it and not on the religion itself. that's my opinion that you can't change since i have yet to see the logic in yours.

You don't even have an argument. except: quran mentions 72 virgins therefore the religion must be bad.
what if there hadn't been a feminist revolution? what if women haven't gained rights yet (these were once radical ideas to conservative christians)
what if they're place in society was still as housewives and nothing more (mind you, christianity didn't bring women rights)
will we still have qualms with the qurans' 72 virgins for each man?

funny how when I was in Nigeria, when muslims and christians argued on religion, 72 virgins or gender bias issues never usually came up (except when people who've visited or witnessed other countries discussed it). yeah you guessed the reason right!
the only things that usually locally came up was how muslims did sharia or sacrificed cows. lol and this coming from christians.

we've been westernized and know our place in society, our rights as females e.t.c so we can stand up to the bias that's still practiced in the muslim AND AFRICAN nations. but does that mean that all muslims and Africans are uncivilized and don't respect their females? NO!!

so there!

stop being obnoxious. you know what i'm talking about. quit twisting my words
for example, An american muslim can go out w/o all the garb covering her face and (especially if they are not immigrants or kids of immigrants)
A middle eastern muslim or even one in christian parts of nigeria will go out fully covered (usually in black ) that you can't see their face.
the western ones have more rights.
there most certainly is a difference between a nigerian muslim and american muslim (i'm not talking about recent immigrants)


Ok. how come the govt. didn't influence the second generation immigrants in the positive? you should know the answer, they live w/ their parents that were 1st generation immigrants and that's where the primary influence is.
and and then we all know what's going on in Europe and how minorities, immigrants aren't integrated.
That's why it'll be rare for a 3rd or 4th generation muslim to be part of the terrorism pact. their connection with the islamic world is close to null and the religion they practice will be more influenced with the liberal culture they live in.

What really were you getting at here? That it is perfectly ok for muslim nations to sponsor terrorism (that is encouraged in the quran you have never read!) since their govt is based on the religion while America MUST base their own response on "liberty", "democracy" and "freedom", alien principles to a deadly enemy?
What really was your point here? It must have been lost in a slew of high fallutin but senseless verbosity.

Americans DID base their response on liberty democracy and freedom which is alien to their enemy
and the middle easterners DID base their response on islam which is equally alien to Americans.

that's my point. different sides, diffrerent opinions.
It's a clash of civilizations (one still based on religion practiced in its bare centuries old form and the other more new and modernized, recent ideologies)

I am anti-war so i support neither party. american nor middle east.

maybe you need me to break this post down to kindergarten language for you?

so yeah. people usually think Islam is bad christianity is good just because the recent problem going on.
If USA wasn't as secualarized and christianity was still the thing just as in muslim countries.

The war will be different. US won't even be the same. christianity would have as bad rep. as islam

but fortgunately, christianity is practiced by people in their personal space and not allowed to be the determining factor in people's lifes in all things political/ national
in essence, it's being suppresed to fit in with the civilized western image.

so yeah. I still belief it's a question of civilization and culture why the whole thing is going on and not religion.

'cause you still haven't told me why America became more civilized after it replaced puritan christian ideology with "liberty freedon equality" (well actually civilization caused the replacement.)
and how come southerners used the bible to defend slavery (something that wouldn't happen today where the meaning of equality have been questioned thoroughly close to and after the US civil war)

davidylan:
Islam in western countries is primarily an immigrant religion! America just got her first muslim member of legislature more than 230 years after independence! That is probably why most muslim fundamentalists would be immigrants. What about the muslims in northern nigeria and sudan? Are they immigrants too? Do they have the same culture as muslims from Jordan and Iran?
Could you please be more specific as to what this nebulous reason may be? Beyond the oft abused civilization, culture and injustice?
If you had lost a family member during Sept 11 i'm sure you wont be rationalising away the meaning of innocen civilians!

NIGERIA AND SUDAN AREN'T LIBERAL/ SECULAR WESTERN COUNTRIES get it?!!!! lol
there is no where in the nigerian constitution that protects human rights like western countries (even if there is, one wouldn't believe it) so your argument is null.

you can't compare a nigerian muslim to a US muslim. they will definitely have different opinions about stuff that is shaped by the place/environment, family they grew up in.

If you lost a family member in Iraq (many civilians there were killed) you wouldn't call America innocent either.
watch farenheit 9/11 and see the reaction of the iraqian families.

yes both families will be innocent duh. but then why justify one side and not the other?

The muslim nations are based on the religion of "Islam" so their war obviously will be "based on islam"
America is based on the ideology of "Liberty, equality and democracy" so their war obviously will be "because of liberty, democracy freedom"

but then these wars have their own deep reason why they happened rather than the superflivous, obstentious "yay liberty" "yay islam" reasons.

davidylan:
What about the muslims in Nigeria, Sudan, Jordan, Somalia, Indonesia, Spain, Chechnya?

What universal culture makes them to martyr innocent civilians in the hopes of 72 virgins in the hereafter?

these countries aren't really "western countries" at least not in my definition
and the fundamentalist muslims in the western ones (let's count spain) are either immigrants/ 2nd generation or just the few fundamentalist muslims you can count
just as we have our fundamentalist christians even here in the liberal US.

There's a reason to it. Just as Bush has his "excuse" for invading iraq and creating the war that's causing the deaths of innocent civilians as well as soldiers.
"innocent" means different things to different people. we think ourselves innocent and the radicals as evil. but guess what? they think themselves innocent as the US as the evil.

yeah. you can never get culture.

parents still wonders at the american culture where people are allowed to go almsot bare naked on the streets. lol
that's alien to middle easterners where their culture is to cover the females up head to toe.

davidylan:
Hopefully what you mean here is that both muslims and christians go to separate places that are both called paradise! Christians certainly do not go to a paradise where there is no worship and sex, booze, homosexualism and hedonism are primary "rewards" for "steadfast worship"!

I made that comment sarcastically so don't think i'm agreeing with you.
if you read my previous posts, you'll see that this is why i differenciated heaven and paradise in the first place.

christians go to heaven (w/ exception of jehovah witness peeps).
then i guess you're jehovah witness 'cause most other christians refer to it as HEAVEN. i can't emphasize it more.

Davidylan, QUIT IT. most christians refer to it as HEAVEN full stop. when the other christians come on here, we'll ask them whether they refer to it as paradise or heaven.

yeah God is also Jehovah but most christians refer to him as God
yeah Jesus is also Messiah but most christians refer to him as Jesus

so quit it. doesn't matter what word choice i use.ok?

you know what. fine muslims and christians go to paradise. you happy now? lol

making a big deal out of nothing.

That christian nations (aka western nations) are becoming more secular has never been in doubt from day 1. That christianity is being stripped from government is thanks to those who are bent on separating church from state quite unlike what obtains in your beloved muslim nations where the state is the religion!
And stop using the same hollow arguments that muslims use, gay priests do not represent the vast majority of christians. That there are homosexuals in america does not suddenly portray all americans as homosexual! Gay marriage being legalised in massahusetts, i thought you told us that the US was now a secular state? What is the connection between the legalisation of gay marriages and christian principles?

Exactly. so you do agree that in muslim nations, the state is the religion! the religion is basically etched into their laws (sharia e.t.c)
gay priets don't represent christians but IT IS ALLOWED. that the point i'm trying to make.
gay marriage IS legalized in Mass. because obviously the people making the laws weren't thinking "omg does the bible support this? freak"

my connection is that: In muslim nations, gay marriages will not be allowed because it goes against the laws that are dependent upon the religion
in US on the other hand, it is allowed because the laws aren't dependent upon any religion.

that's my point.
and in connecting this with culture and civilization, what do you expect from a country that bases all it's laws on a book written centuries ago? rather than modify it at least to fit the modern day.

If the US laws were based on the bible (it has happened before and you know what the results were), the stuff you're saying about muslims, you would find christianity equally guilty of.


so yeah. There is nothing wrong with islam (the religion).

The "classifications" of muslims into either radical or moderate is purely a media invention and has nothing to do with defining a true muslim.

Islam is one? Thank God you said "in your oppininon"! Perhaps you might want to enlighten us on why we have sunni moslems, shia muslims e.t.c. since islam is one!

I should have said "liberal" "moderate" and "conservative" muslims and in between.
The more conservative ones are usually referred to as being "radical"
of course they are not radical in their states (the 'liberal' ones would be "radical" in muslim states)
so, it's not a media invention.
African Americans carrying Afros are considered to be radical in the US.


Islam is ONE if you go by the Quran. People however have different interpretations of Allah's words and the difference might have etched it's place in too deep.
Just like christians. we have the catholics who interpret the bible differently and the Jehovah witnesses who interpret the bible differently than lets say celestians or protestants.

but all in all, core beliefs make the religion ONE even though ideologies might be different.

which supports my point that this is not the problem of religion but rather a problem of culture, civilization e.t.c

Again you really have no point here! What is this universal culture that is making islamic fundamentalism rear its ugly head in London, USA, Nigeria, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Indonesia, Australia, Spain e.t.c.? What civilization are you talking about here?

for some reason, these fundamentalists are immigrants or 2nd generation. so they're really not Western.
most of them are from the middle-east basically.
and the rest of them most likely aren't integrated with the rest of the western world/culture.

I refuse to see the problem as the fault of a religion. If it was so, we would still be having witch trials in America today. even slavery (some southerners used the bible as an argument for slavery)

to me, it has to do with civilization and culture basically. things change and perspectives about things change. but in some countries they don't. usually the underdeveloped countries are more likely to be like that.

Doesnt seem you really understand the concept you are talking about. Paradise is used uncountable times in the bible. i wonder where you got the idea that christians primarily refer to it as heaven!

lol. Christians do primarily refer to it as heaven. quit arguing over nonsense and rubbish.
You call it heaven all the time and you know it. how many times have you or christian pastors said stuff like "sit on the right side of God in paradise"
no muslim usually use that. christians use "heaven" lol

Last i checked, you quoted nothing. Unless you are refering to your baseless generalisations.

I was refering to your allusion to ananias and sapphira and the rest of the stuff that went on (in the bible and among christians) before God decided to be more "longsuffering"

What is your definition of a secular country? Virtually all European countries and the USA were founded on the principles of christianity from where they derived most of their present day laws!

uh-uh!! and that's why it's now illegal to use prayer in schools and govt workplaces/ spaces in general.
It's also why it was being debated whether to rename the "christmas tree" at the white house to "national tree"
and that's why it's also ok for priests to be gay (gay marriage is legalized in massachusetts. i don't know about that and principles of christianity. do you?)
And that's also why many of the laws are being modified to fit the modern day.

lol. take it. Most western countries are becoming more and more secular everyday. why do you argue over what you yourself know to be true?

This is just pure nonsense. How many radical muslims do we have in Lagos or Edo state?
What makes muslims in the USA moderate and those in christian areas of Nigeria radical?
If by your warped logic, muslims are moderate simply because they live in "secular" countries, are you trying to insinuate that Nigeria is not a secular country which is why muslims here are radical? Is it not because there are laws that are enforced in the US unlike in northern Nigeria where there are not only sacred cows, but goats and chickens?

USA is more liberal and Nigeria is more conservative
If you ask a muslim in lagos if he/she believes in 72 virgins and Sharia, he/she is more likely to tell you YES than a muslim in the US,
because the liberal western culture (women rights, human rights e.t.c) would have influenced the American Muslim. Trust me I have them as friends and i bet you do too.

it's perfectly logical and you yourself know that.

you are just confused. First you call them secular countries, next you say christian nations are getting secular! Two quotes above you claimed these "moderate" muslims are NOT in christian countries but in secular countries, now you claim that christian nations are getting secular. Pray, where are these secular countries that are different from christian countries that your dear "moderate" muslims live?

I think you're the one confused.
this section of your post makes no sense whatsoever. read it yourself. lol

western countries are becoming more and more secular period. the US can actually be called a secular country in regards to the government. beliefs are practiced in personal spaces and don't conflict with how the nation is governed (unlike countries in the middle-east where religion has way way more influence)

when religion had a lot of influence in early America, we know what happened with the puritans. lol
i don't know why you didn't try to argue that.

If only you had bothered to pore through a few of the commandments in the quran!

yeah. what i haven't already seen in the Bible? God commanded people to go kill women and children.
you said it yourself that he has become more "longsuffering"
so what's your point. lol