₦airaland Forum

@Lorez,

Thanks for your compliments. Compliments coming from someone of your caliber gives me a lot of joy. In my youth days i was very optimistic and passionate about Nigeria. I had the opportunity to check out in my early 20s but i refused to because i had great plans and hope for Nigeria. I was even sent to US and UK to choose where i would like to live, but in all occasions i came back home. So you can feel the frustrations of dashed hope that i feel on how things have gone so hopelessly bad. I am barely managing to survive with my family through very difficult situations and i can tell you it is not due to lack of skills, motivation or hard work.

Back to Ribadu, I believed he miscalculated. If he had resigned just before the elections, where OBJ used him to eliminate political opponents from the elections, he would have written his name forever in Nigeria's history books. But he became an accomplice in OBJ's third term bid, exposing himself to a lot of political risk. I think he was bribed with triple promotion and a promised of becoming IG by OBJ.

Also if he had resigned immediately the new administration came in, immediately Yaradua started behaving funny towards him, he would still had retained some degree of pride and respect, But to hang on and allow himself to be humiliated like that shows his shallowness at politicking.

Today Okonjo Iweala has far more respect than Ribadu, because she did not allow OBJ to humiliate her. Ribadu would have gotten a UN job by now if he was not so humiliated. I would Vote for okonjo Iweala any day.


As per your project i would be honoured to collaborate. And i would look forward to your thread. But i must warn you Nigerians especially the Elite, are very conservative. They are slow to embrace innovative construction methods out side the traditional mass concrete and blocks.

@Larez,

I really appreciate your posts, especially in the properties section. I look forwards to reading your posts concerning Architecture, i had learnt a lot from them. Although I have reservations concerning your views of Nigerian Architects and Architecture. Well that is a digression.

Now to the topic at hand, I know you are a staunch supporter of Ribadu. I too was a fan of Ribadu in his early days but changed when his anti corruption war turn to anti-Political war. Do not misunderstand antagonists of Ribadu, we have as much interest in seeing Nigeria succeed as you protagonists.

I Have lived in Nigeria all my life, I experience all the frustrations caused by corrupt govt officials, so i believe i understand the depth of Nigerian problems more that those in diaspora, who rely on second hand information or press hype.

I still say Ribadu did not go after untouchables, because in Nigeria there are no untouchables and there had never been. It depends on who an administration want to brand untouchable, one untouchable in one government is a touchable in another government and vice-versa, it depends on the Government in power. The person that even touched most untouchable in Nigeria was Abacha, he touched the Head of the Kaduna Mafia, the Langtan Mafia, the Caliphate Mafia, Abacha even touched the Otta Mafia, and almost the Minna Mafia before he was eliminated. Another person that touched some untouchables was Buhari/Idiagbon.

OBJ and Ribadu did not touch any untouchable, all these politicians that are now being branded untouchable were no where. I still ask for any major prosecution by OBJ/Ribadu, in the most celebrated case of Tafa and Alams. Both of them did not spend one day in Prison, they were in detention for Six months and they were handed six months jail term, whereby the days in detention was counted as the six months jail term. Even at that alams spent most of his time in "foreign hospitals". Meanwhile many people were put into detention/Jail for more than six months by Ribadu without being charged to court. Ribadu was only a Lap dog of OBJ. Sometimes OBJ threatens political opponents by saying " I will instruct Ribadu to arrest you". Also it is OBJ that will instruct Ribadu to remove names from Ribadu's list. eg The present president.

If is only a Ribadu, that will Arrest a Tafa, and no other Police officer with him. So it was only Tafa that entered the Police vault and stole all the monies over the years, without the knowledge of the accountants and the finance department,not to mention other AIG's. Same with Alams, the Accountant General of the state, the commissioner of finance, the Deputy governor and the house of Assembly were oblivious Alams thefts.
Look Ribadu/OBJ were only interested in removing once person, once that had been achieved, the person is let off the hook lightly.

Having said that i think the present government his going overboard in their attempt to humiliate and punish Ribadu for OBJ's sins.

@Justcool,

I am highly impressed, with you accurate description of the soul, how and when it enters a fetus. Please can you give us some references where we can read further, so as to understand the anatomy of a soul. Is it in the Bible or the Koran?, or it is in some science journal?. You will be helping in resolving on of the most fundamental questions puzzling mankind and animal kind too.

Although, i had not fully made up my mind on "designing babies", but the more i think about it the more i get uncomfortable with it.

As an Evolutionist, i believe every trait ( including deceases) has some evolutionary usefulness. I believe species should evolve according to its evolutionary needs. An example i will use is Sickle Cell Anemia. Sickle Cell Decease looks like a curse to the person affected and his/her family, but on the evolutionary scale it is very important to the long time survival of the black race. If a strain of malaria parasite should emerge that deadly and defies all drugs and treatment, then black children would be highly vulnerable, the only once with natural immunity against malaria parasites are the children born with the ss trait. Although there is a tendency for a lot of them to die early, but the surviving once usually live on to their mid 20s, giving them enough time to produce one or two offsprings whereby at least one would be free of the ss trait,before he/she dies out. Remember there is a trade off between immunity to maleria and the number of S traits in the genes, Those with two s traits (SS - sickers) have very high immunity, those with 1 s (AS) have partial immunity and people with no S traits (AA), have very low immunity against malaria.

So if you design babies eliminating the S trait completely, then our Evolutionary Insurance would disappear and if the unexpected happens(malaria-wise), we would be fully exposed.

I just used the SS trait as an example, there are many similar traits in the same category. If we had survived this well and this long with "naturally designed"and adapted babies, then i think artificially designing babies is not necessary

Finally, evolution in the long run knows how to take care of problems of deceases and changes in environment and diet, the reason we are exposed to new deceases we have not been naturally able to cope with, is because we humans have changed our diet radically over the past century and evolution needs time( thousands of years) to cope.

Hello Chris, The topic is very interesting.

As for me, I support such research, but with very tight control to prevent misuse.
I am a Pro Abortionists so to me the ethical question is not exactly the discarded a fertilized egg, but know how science can be abused, experiments might go further to experimenting with advanced fetuses and actual babies.

Also i might have problems with the procedure of designing babies. If the required trait can be obtained from a few fetuses in very early stage of development, i would not have problems with it, but with my little understanding of genetic, i know that getting specific genetic trait is a very low probability hit and miss procedure, how many fetuses would be required to obtained a desired result, and how developed would the fetuses have to be before it is to be discarded. Because it would be wrong to discard hundreds or even thousands of fetuses at very late stages in their development just to obtain one well designed baby.

So for me to completely support the experiment, i need to have answers to those questions.

I think Nigerians love sensationalism. Since we love noise makers, our role models turn out to be noise makers, the more noise you make the more popular you become.

Ribadu was the chief noise maker, he was fighting and winning the war on corruption on the pages of newspaper, on talk shows and on CNN (remember the anti corruption CZAR).

Can any Ribadu apologist, one case Ribadu successfully prosecuted and what was the outcome of the case apart form removing the person from office.
I am surprised southerners are the loudest supporters of Ribadu, because Ribadu was systematically disempowering the south. It is also surprising that people do not know that corruption is a major tool to acquiring power and influence in Nigeria. That is why the most corrupt people are the power brokers, they determine who gets what in Nigeria, they control the FG, the army, the police, and other organs of state. And these class of people are mainly from the North and from the west, with a sprinkling of people from the east and very few from the south south. With the money politics of Nigeria how does one aspire to any posts without corrupt money? do you think any sane legitimate business would gamble his hard earned money on any aspect of Nigerian politics? Were you spend up to N50 billion just to become a senator. That was why the Corrupt Northerners always dictated who becomes governor in the south south. Who was Ibori before 1999?.

So it was very unfair for Ribadu to go after mainly southern governors, while living their Northern counterpart to go free with their wealth. i would have been happier if he employed some level of federal character in fighting looters, then one section of the country would not be put at an unfair advantage.

Imagine if Ibori had not the financial muscle (from corruption of course), how would he have installed his cousin as governor and most political office holders in Delta. I am sure a Northerner would have been responsible for installing the governor as was with the case of Ibori.

Secondly, ribadu prosecuted his corruption war base of which side of third term you belong, i cant remember and pro third term political that Ribadu looked at.

The argument being put forward by Ribadu's fan that" who among the people ribadu arrested are innocent" is unfortunate. Ribadu arrested hundreds of innocent Nigerian citizens, chief among them was Mike Adenuga,Buba Marwa, Mohammed Babangida( no charges were brought against him and was immediately released his father dropped his political ambitions), Otumba fasewe( who was locked up for 6 months without charges), so many members of so many state house of assemblies ( who were blackmailed to do as Ribadu wished and were later released without any charges), the list is endless.

Finally, what is Ribadu's antecedents to make him eligible for president? What is is record before he was appointed as EFCC chairman?, What were his role under previous governments, like Abacha. Was he immuned from the cesspool that is Nigerian Police?. Does he have the experience to govern even a local government in a democratic setting? Please Ribadu fans answer these questions.

I think your theory requires further evaluation, because i have never been able to understand why the people that shows the most visible religious exhibition are usually the worst exhibiting the most negative inward religious behavior. They make the most noise, preach love incessantly, and have a very pious look in public with bible or koran under their armpit, but when the get to their homes or offices, they metamorphosise into something entirely different, they treat people under them ( less privileged than them), like shiet, they engage in all sorts of acts contrary to what they profess in public. They steal, cheat, hate, curse, fornicate, lie, etc,

I thing psychologists should study the mind of the average Nigerian and see whether pastor AIO' hypothesis is valid

OBJ left in 79 and foisted clueless Shagari on Nigeria as against Awolowo, by the time the first term was over Nigeria was in a mess and the Military took over as a result of the chaos caused by OBJ party (NPN).
OBJ was drafted (from prison) to clear the mess he got us into.

Enter 2007, and history is repeating itself, OBJ Foisted clueless, sickly Yaradua on Nigerian, and now Nigeria is in a mess once more. 2011 elections is by the corner. After the mess that will be created after the 2011 elections, we might need to recall OBJ once more from Otta to come and help us clear the mess once again. Probably allow him life presidency.

OBJ left in 79 and foisted clueless Shagari on Nigeria as against Awolowo, by the time the first term was over Nigeria was in a mess and the Military took over as a result of the chaos caused by OBJ party (NPN).
OBJ was drafted (from prison) to clear the mess he got us into.

Enter 2007, and history is repeating itself, OBJ Foisted clueless, sickly Yaradua on Nigerian, and now Nigeria is in a mess once more. 2011 elections is by the corner

First and foremost lets let our facts and statistics right.

Ghana has a generation capacity of 2000mega watta and hopes to generate 5,000mw by 2015, right?

But i can tell you that for Nigeria to have light 24/7, 20,000 mw would not be enough.

Even if we remove the odd 2,000 - 3,000 MW being generated by PHCN, Nigeria still generate more than 2,000MW. When you add the generating capacity of all the 500 - 1000KW generators being operated by companies in Lagos alone, it will add up to more than 2000MW, not to add the one used in Homes from "I better pass my neighbour " to 100KW diesel generators.

So Ghana cannot even begin to scratch the demand for electricity in Nigeria. If you feed the whole 2000MW being generated in Ghana to Nigeria, it will not make a scratch.

Now the main problem with Nigeria is Laziness of the Elites, especially the political elites, too much easy money. They are contended with wearing stainless white agbada to office and closing without any stain on their agbada. They are not ready to task their brains on planing and working out solutions to problems, especially our power problem, they are more interested in awarding of contracts and sharing of monthly allocations. Check the National Assembly, the only bills that get passed in the Appropriation bill, supplementary appropriation bill or some sharing of money bill.

To solve the power problems of Nigeria need serious planing. Planing of diversifying our generation base by having am appropriate energy mix. Overhauling of our transmission and sub stations. Our present system cannot even handle any thing more than 3,500MW, or we will be having explosions here and there. That is why I laugh when Yaradua says he wants to generate 6000 MW, how does he hope to transmit it?, electricity is not GSM.

tonye-t

Sorry, i did not see you are a guy, i do not know why i felt you are a girl. I am trying to do to many things at the same time. Disregard, the last part of my last post

First and foremost lets let our facts and statistics right.

Ghana has a generation capacity of 2000mega watta and hopes to generate 5,000mw by 2015, right?

But i can tell you that for Nigeria to have light 24/7, 20,000 mw would not be enough.

Even if we remove the odd 2,000 - 3,000 MW being generated by PHCN, Nigeria still generate more than 2,000MW. When you add the generating capacity of all the 500 - 1000KW generators being operated by companies in Lagos alone, it will add up to more than 2000MW, not to add the one used in Homes from "I better pass my neighbour " to 100KW diesel generators.

So Ghana cannot even begin to scratch the demand for electricity in Nigeria. If you feed the whole 2000MW being generated in Ghana to Nigeria, it will not make a scratch.

Now the main problem with Nigeria is Laziness of the Elites, especially the political elites, too much easy money. They are contended with wearing stainless white agbada to office and closing without any stain on their agbada. They are not ready to task their brains on planing and working out solutions to problems, especially our power problem, they are more interested in awarding of contracts and sharing of monthly allocations. Check the National Assembly, the only bills that get passed in the Appropriation bill, supplementary appropriation bill or some sharing of money bill.

To solve the power problems of Nigeria need serious planing. Planing of diversifying our generation base by having am appropriate energy mix. Overhauling of our transmission and sub stations. Our present system cannot even handle any thing more than 3,500MW, or we will be having explosions here and there. That is why I laugh when Yaradua says he wants to generate 6000 MW, how does he hope to transmit it?, electricity is not GSM.

tonye-t ,
My browser only initially displayed the first three lines of your last post, so i did not see your full comments.

tonye-t:

GOD:- is not what you know or think He is by reading the bible on surface view, to know God, try and understand how he related with man, his intention for man since creation and how man fell and the realtionship contd.Biblical accounts show us that after the fall, man's heart became abrutly wicked and how else do you want a pure divinity to deal and relate with a[b] filthy humanity like our ancestors?,[/b] wisdom and patience my friends,wisdom and patience!. Purity is God's nature and for each time he tried relating with man, there was always a provokation of his internal nature to destroy that which was dirty. Now see it this way: have u guys ever tried removing your football from a very filthy gutter and on bringing the ball, you got a splash of the gutter fluid on your mouth, WHAT DID YOU DO?, did you swallow it becos you wanted to show you were a humble and tough guy?pls tell me the truth?. Now if your answers were in my affirmative, then this is a very similar scenarion with God and man.(if not for christ and his redemption)

SATAN:- to know the origin of a thing, then check its starting, from biblical account, the devil's first official appearance began with DECEPTION, meaning his nature is deception and deceptive. the devil shows forht everyday and seconds, the problem with the carnal man is that we are too busy to recognise his tricks before the trouble surfaces. Man's problem is ignorance and nothing more!believe me. again in the beginning of the second phase of the bible(new testament) the devil came again, just the same way he subtly crept to eve but this time to Jesus, and Chrsit really proved to Him that he understands his tricks. and what evil can there be more than deception i ask, deception brought mankind to this mess ans its still giving man so much overdose of its aftermath.what else do you want me to say if not on HOW EVIL dEVIL can be

wake up

I take exception to the bold statement, if you say ancestors were filthy, mine were not. My ancestors lived in perfect harmony with their environment, other people and other plants and animals in their environment. I am very proud of my ancestors.

You said Satan began with DECEPTION. Please explain how Satan Deceived Adam and Eve. Satan told them the Truth, that the fruit was not poison that will kill them, but will give then knowledge God did not want them to have. After eating the fruit, did'nt they acquire knowledge. If eating the fruit was so important to God, why did he not explain the consequences of eating it properly to Adam and Eve.

You should be grateful to Satan, or you will still be walking around naked like a baboon.

Again the Devil did not Deceive Jesus, he only tried to BRIBE him, to following and worshiping him. After all it is common knowledge that the world had been handed over to him.  Devil did not use threats to try and get Jesus to his side. He tried to offer him bribe and he refuse. And there is no consequence for refusing Satan's bribes, he just leaves you alone. It is Jehovah that uses threats of fire and brimstone to get converts.

Is that the EVIL you people are accusing Satan of? - DECEPTION.  Even in a lowly human court, such allegations would not hold water.

tonye-t:
[color=#000099]@wirinet,

my friend, i never insulted anyone but only expressed the level of your knowledge about God in that word i used "immatured", immature means someone is not matured in a certain topic or topics as the case may be, but rather you're the one turning it into a gallore of insults hmmmmm i reserve my comments

comer to think of it anyway, the way you just read and misinterpreted my post is supposedly the same way you do to the bible, and no wonder you come here making funny comments out of your beautiful but logical brain

peace bro, i love you  

Thanks Tonye, that is the beauty of the world, we all have different colour, different languages, different beliefs, etc. It would be a boring world indeed if we all have the same looks, the same language and believe the same God.

Real LOVE is loving someone in spite of his looks, language, tribe or religion. One of my best friend is an alfa, his father was the 5th in muslim hierarchy in Lagos, and he knows my stand on Religion, but we have remained friends for over 35yrs and our love for each other had not diminished.

So Peace,  i love you too._{Hope my wife does not read this,}  

tonye-t ,
My browser only initially displayed the first three lines of your last post, so i did not see your full comments.

tonye-t:
[color=#000099]
GOD:- is not what you know or think He is by reading the bible on surface view, to know God, try and understand how he related with man, his intention for man since creation and how man fell and the realtionship contd.Biblical accounts show us that after the fall, man's heart became abrutly wicked and how else do you want a pure divinity to deal and relate with a[b] filthy humanity like our ancestors?,[/b] wisdom and patience my friends,wisdom and patience!. Purity is God's nature and for each time he tried relating with man, there was always a provokation of his internal nature to destroy that which was dirty. Now see it this way: have u guys ever tried removing your football from a very filthy gutter and on bringing the ball, you got a splash of the gutter fluid on your mouth, WHAT DID YOU DO?, did you swallow it becos you wanted to show you were a humble and tough guy?pls tell me the truth?. Now if your answers were in my affirmative, then this is a very similar scenarion with God and man.(if not for christ and his redemption)

SATAN:- to know the origin of a thing, then check its starting, from biblical account, the devil's first official appearance began with DECEPTION, meaning his nature is deception and deceptive. the devil shows forht everyday and seconds, the problem with the carnal man is that we are too busy to recognise his tricks before the trouble surfaces. Man's problem is ignorance and nothing more!believe me. again in the beginning of the second phase of the bible(new testament) the devil came again, just the same way he subtly crept to eve but this time to Jesus, and Chrsit really proved to Him that he understands his tricks. and what evil can there be more than deception i ask, deception brought mankind to this mess ans its still giving man so much overdose of its aftermath.what else do you want me to say if not on HOW EVIL dEVIL can be

wake up

I take exception to the bold statement, if your ancestors ( including grand parents, great grand parents and great great grand partents) were filthy, mine were not. My ancestors lived in perfect harmony with their environment, other people and other plants and animals in their environment. I am very proud of my ancestors.

You said Satan began with DECEPTION. Please explain how Satan Deceived Adam and Eve. Satan told them the Truth, that the fruit was not poison that will kill them, but will give then knowledge God did not want them to have. After eating the fruit, did'nt they acquire knowledge. If eating the fruit was so important to God, why did he not explain the consequences of eating it properly to Adam and Eve.

You should be grateful to Satan, or you will still be walking around naked like a baboon.

Again the Devil did not Deceive Jesus, he only tried to BRIBE him, to following and worshiping him. After all it is common knowledge that the world had been handed over to him.  Devil did not use threats to try and get Jesus to his side. He tried to offer him bribe and he refuse. And there is no consequence for refusing Satan's bribes, he just leaves you alone. It is Jehovah that uses threats of fire and brimstone to get converts.

Is that the EVIL you people are accusing Satan of? - DECEPTION.  Even in a lowly human court, such allegations would not hold water.

tonye-t:
@ wirinet, Jagunlabi and Ogaga4luv

reading thru' ya'll posts, you make me laff out at how much immatured peeps like you could be sometimes, God is a spirit and hence all his creations including you and i,

now it takes good spiritual insight to hear and know a spirit and how they fxn, trying to judge a spirit from a carnal(physical ) point of view will only make man so engrossed in confusion and much fiasco

no one has seen God and likewise the devil. . .

Tonye, it is very uncouth for you for throw insults around, it shows you are immature, insecure and unable to contribute to the discussions. You are getting really emotional.

If no one had ever seen God or the Devil, why do so many people claim to see God or devil, hear messages from God or Devil, and sometimes seems to know the mind of God or Devil, when they do not even know the minds of their family members who they wake up with every morning. Some take it further by commanding God or Devil to carry out their wishes.

If May kelly does not show us where Satan ordered anybody to be killed, I will be ask Ogaga (as chief agent of Satan) to institute Libel charges against her. I would suggest Ogaga asks for a compensation of $1,000,000,000 or special permission from Jehovah for Satan to deal with her( as was with the case of Job).

May kelly:
Qtopic:

Satan is Evil and command his followers to kill. ANy one who kill one another for the sake of his god is devilish and a killer.

We do not FIGHT for Almighty Jehovah God, neither Prophets nor messenger. Hence those who try doing that will be Physically be blind on their way. Quote me.

Please Madam, kindly furnish us with the book, chapter and verse where Satan made such a command.
Thank you for your anticipated education.

After all the rage at the bokom Haram uprising and subsequent assassination of its supposed leader has died down, we can starting thinking with our head instead of our hearts.

As much as i hate the Nigeria Police for past extra judicial murders, i think this one cannot be their call. There is no way the police would murder a high profile politician, handed over to them by a high ranking military office, after parading the suspect in front of the whole world press, without orders from above.

I am sure the assassination was ordered either from Abuja or from state house, that is the federal government is desperately trying to defend it. If not heads would have rolled at the police hierarchy or at best queries would have been issued.

If you understand Nigerian Politics, it is more about interest rather than justice, Because Yusuf was no more nuisance than Adedibu. I just feel the weapon he employs (fundamentalist Islam) is harder to control than weapon employed by the likes of Adedibu ( Motorpark touts and NURTW). But their aims is the same thing - control their environment through violence and intimidation and be ready to deploy your thugs for elections. Also i think he might have fallen out with the powers that be, hence their clash with the police, or else how would one explain the way the sect had operated undisturbed all these years.

mchenry:
@ogaga how would you feel if a creation of yours tries to undermine your authority?

I know you directed the question at ogaga, Please let me give you my own views.

If my creation ( because i begot, feed, and in fact is responsible for all his need) like my son should undermine my authority by eating a fruit i forbid him to eat, I will curse him, beat the living daylight out of him and drive in into the streets to sleep under Oshodi bridge. It does not matter he is less than 5 yrs old because Adam and Eve were younger that 5 yrs on earth when God drove them away from home.

davidylan:
I dont believe this for one second. I was born into a christian home too and i know how extremely easy it is to simply walk away from the bible. Infact its WAY MORE DIFFICULT to dedicate time to read the bible and pray than it is to do the exact opposite.

So i will never understand this false idea that the reason atheists are so much against christianity is because it taught them "falsehoods". I think the truth is most are afraid and want to forcefully push others away from the truth.

David i say you are sometimes not very truthful with your arguments ( i did not say you lie), but how many children can tell their parents that they want to change denominations, not to talk of changing religions. Worst still what will befall the child of a born again if the child  tells the parent he/she does not believe in God anymore. I can imagine what will happen to the child. Even a fully grown man has a difficult time letting his parents know he does not believe in the Bible.

You also have the fear thing upside down, it is you Christians that live by fear, atheists in spite of  all the threats of both Gods and Devils wrath still do not fear, if they do they would have allayed that fear by succumbing to the treats long ago. I sleep so peacefully at night, and i have not had a Nightmare since my youth days, so please tell me what i need to fear.

seyenko:
Sorry Noetic i couldnt respond because i was not online. In response to your questions: How did evolution start? Science says evolution started with the Big Bang, the bible says the Earth was without form and God said let there be light and there was light. Also, i didnt claim i know the mind of God but the bible says he's ways are not our ways, the bible says a thousand years is like a day to God and a day to God is like a thousand years to Man. Basically, we dont have same standard measurement for time. Also since there is a dynamic and ever changing equilibrium between the biosphere and the atmosphere, the earth and all therein will continue to evolve - we are now going thru global warming - plants and animals that are warmth and carbon loving will thrive while others will die but a threshold will be reached in years ahead that will reverse the trend. In others words we will experience ice age and warm ade intermittently. The explains evolution - animals and plants will continue to mutate and adapt themselves to the state of the atmosphere and the atmospher likewise

Science did not say evolution started with the big bang. The misconception of evolution is the reason i go to great length to explain the term evolution.

As i have said earlier, evolution itself does not explain the formation or the start of the process we are examining, it only goes on to explain the changes that have taken place since the start of the process.

For example in explaining the universe, the big bang theory deals with the start of the universe, while evolution deals with how matter, gasses, planet, stars, galaxies, etc, evolved from that start.

In the evolution of life, Abiogenesis and biochemistry explains the formation of Organic molecules from simple inorganic matter, and goes on to explain the formation of DNA and the first single celled organism. Then Evolution goes on to explain how the first single celled organism went on to form the hundreds of thousands of species that have existed since then.

OLAADEGBU:
Let me remind you of your bluffing, ridicule and use of ad Hominem instead of addressing the issue at hand in the thread below for you to see that you have been conservative with the truth.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-285032.32.html#bot

I have looked at the said post and i will include it below;

Typical of religious fundamentalists, they prefer to attack personalities instead of idea, soon they will turn their verbal attacks into physical attacks. Even if Darwin and Co were said those things, did it remove anything from his observations and theory. If he held those views, those are his personal views. Most European of the 16th and 17th century held the view that Blacks were inferior because of the state they met us. Also most blacks saw the whites were superior, in fact this inferiority complex still afflict a lot of blacks. In fact we blacks depend on the white for every thing, our religion, our language, our clothes, etc. we are wholly depended on white technology to survive. So  do not use 16th century attitudes to fault current scientific thoughts and theories, i do not see the connection.

Olaadegun, it is fruitless discussing with you, you have zero understanding of the concepts you are attempting to argue, you have been copying and pasting for as long as i have known you. I had tried in some occasions to educate you on basic science but you are usually not interested in learning. You just continue to spew out the some religious dogma we had heard since our toddler days. Also i had advised you  to be content with your religious dogma and leave science.
It is highly irrational for a non scientist ( a theologian) to argue with a scientist on science. It is like a pilot arguing with a musician on the workings of a plane.

You should get it into your psyche that the Bible and it doctrine does not make sense to over 60% of the world population. I find it hard to believe that one book is an authority unto itself, meaning the Bible is the only proof of the authenticity of the Bible, or the Bible is the proof of God and God is the the proof of the Bible.

If you feel ridiculed by my comments, then i am sorry, it was not intended to do that.  

OLAADEGBU:
Let me educate you on the meaning of science and scientists.  There is what is called operational science and historical or origin science, and your bias will depend on your worldview, evolutionism or creationism.

The science that addresses such issues is known as historical or origins science, and it differs from the operational science that gives us computers, inexpensive food, space exploration, electricity, and the like.  Origins science deals with the past, which is not accessible to direct experimentation, whereas operational science deals with how the world works in the here and now, which, of course, is open to repeatable experiments.  Because of difficulties in reconstructing the past, those who study fossils (paleontologists) have diverse views on dinosaurs.  As has been said, “Paleontology (the study of fossils) is much like politics: passions run high, and it’s easy to draw very different conclusions from the same set of facts.”  That is why peer reviews even though is a good idea but suffers from envy, biases and neglet from those who don't share the same worldview.

Yes some emotion and ego may be involved in historical science, but that is also present in operational science, the good thing is that science has a way of correcting itself in the long run. As more data comes in, unsustainable hypothesis would become less popular. An excellent example is the debate between Einstein and Bohr on the quantum theory. Even though Einstein was a superstar and was emotionally attached to his theories, Bohr won the debate.

OLAADEGBU:
A paleontologist who believes the record in the Bible, which claims to be the Word of God, will come to different conclusions than an atheist who rejects the Bible.  Willful denial of God’s Word (2 Peter 3:3–7) lies at the root of many disputes over historical science.

There is no collection between paleontology and the Bible, the Bible is of no value to a person studying paleontology. The Bible just makes simplistic assertion to explain the thought of Mesopotamian beliefs.

OLAADEGBU:
Who are those doing the classification?  If you want the proper classification you will have to start from the book of Genesis and see first how God classified the birds into their different "kinds" before Adam was given the task of sub classifying or sub categorising them.  I am not surprised that you ignored all the science journals that I quoted just for you express your fantasy that you want to believe

God did not classify living things, and Adam did no sub classification or sub categorization. In fact the flora and fauna in ancient Mesopotamia which was the setting for the Adam and Eve story was highly limited. There were huge isolated plants and animals in the Antarctic, the American continents and Madagascar,  that the ancient Mesopotamians knew nothing about.

Classifications and categorization was done by scientist for easier identification of living things and to understand the relationships between them.

OLAADEGBU:
Kindly enlighten us on the kind of birds that have no feathers.  I agree that not all birds can now fly, most ornithologists say these birds are secondary flightless, that is, they have lost the ability to fly due to variance within "kind" or mutational losses since creation, the jury is still out on this.  However, extinct flying reptiles are not classified as dinosaurs.  The Bible still affirms that birds and dinosaurs originated separately.

I must admit my mistake here, all birds have feathers, i thought a penguin called "featherless Penguin has to feathers, but google had corrected my notion, it has feathers, it is just that they are very tiny.

OLAADEGBU:
In the first chapter of Genesis, verse 21, we read that on Day 5 of creation, God created "every winged fowl after its kind."  This includes birds that flew above the earth (Genesis 1:20).  Man and land animals were created on Day 6 of the Creation Week (Genesis 1:24-31).  Were there land birds that didn't fly originally, such as penguins and ostrich?  That may be possible but it is also possible that these flightless birds lost the ability to fly due to[b] mutationa[/b]l losses since creation.  So the best possibility is that bird were created on Day 5 as flyers, and some have lost this ability, I will have to go out on a limb here.

We are getting somewhere. You agree that through mutational changes (evolution), A flight bird ( one that is light and small enough to fly) can change to a flightless bird (one that is too big and heavy to fly).  That is progress.

OLAADEGBU:
The Bible declares 10 times in Genesis chapter 1 that all things created by God was given power to reproduce its own kind.  It also says 9 times in the same chapter that "God said", that is, He created by the Power of His Word, supernaturally.  Not one thing could break this law and produce any other kind till today as we are speaking.  If you insist on knowing how God did it, then read the verse in Hebrew 11:3 that says:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

As scientists we are interested to know exactly which words God used to create these things, and see how it can be applied. Or better still break up created things into its component words.

olabowale:
@Wirinet: « #12 on: August 02, 2009, 08:22 PM »   Its obvious that Jamiru was inquiring about evolution of man from some remote specie(s), which is less intelligent, less important than human. This is the hypothesis that Darwin and his cronies have been peddling, not a mere usage of new building materials and elements and styles. Is there an evidence of Darwin hypothesis? No.

Your idea to indicate that 'various architectural styles and elements' can be used to argue any form of evolution ignores the fact that the designers and builders of these "various architectural styles and elements" are the unchanging humans. The styles and elements are developed and enacted based on the simple statement of logic/practicality of Form follows function. You can't build a 200 storey high building by no use of building machineries like cranes, and yet for cost effectiveness, etc it will not make any economic sense to build it in stones, or bricks, etc! Technology is not evolution, it is simply development, not evolvement.

This was Jamiru's original question;

please athiest, has evolution ended its evolving or are we still in the process?

It is not obvious that Jamiru was inquiring about evolution of man from some remote specie(s), which is less intelligent, less important than human, in fact that is your own question. And if you want to ask that question open a new thread and we would help you out with that specific question.

I tried to explain what evolution means and how evolution can never end.  I was using architecture to explain an example of what evolution means, it is wrong to assume evolution only applies to species or specifically to man.

I am sorry to say that your example makes no sense; Architecture is a human trait, and what do you mean by unchanging humans, are you talking of unchanging physical characteristics, or unchanging needs and technology? please elaborate.

I also want you to know that there are two schools of Architecture; there is the school that believes form follows function, while another believes function follows form. And I am more inclined to the latter.

your final statement is what i will call for lack of a better word "jagbajantis", First no body had been able to build a 200 storey building, the highest building is about 120 stories and it is in Taiwan.  Secondly the pyramids of Gaza which is quite tall (i cant remember its exact height), and numerous ancient buildings were built without cranes and machinery.

When we study Architecture, you will study the evolution various styles and elements. An example is the evolution of Benben to become pyramids.

Rescue-me:
I don't want to go into my symptoms per se. I don't want to go off track with the
help I am seeking here.

All I can say is that everywhere I turn in life na wahala and this is due to spiritual reasons.

If you are a christian, you can read about Job in the bible. Job went through this satanic
bondage but God eventually delivered him and everything he lost he gained back.

I wish i could answer all the details of your question. Unfortunately, I can't.
This thread is not to educate or enlighten anyone about what satanic
bondage entails, but to seek help.

You don't have to know my symptoms. A man of God is the one that'll be interested in this.

If you know of any man or woman of God who does deliverance, who casts out demons etc and is in the United States (preferably Maryland), please bring it to my attention.

God bless you.

I see you are in a lot of agony and i really wanted to help, that was why i was seeking education on satanic bondage and how it is affecting you.

The only help i can offer you is advice and information.
The advice i can give you is to tell you the truth and the truth is no other person can help you besides yourself. If you run from pastor to pastor, from one deliverance to another, you will expose yourself to further harm of your psyche and possibly your mental health, not mentioning financial and material exploitation.

Trust me i have seen so many people psychologically wrecked from running around looking for solutions to their "spiritual problems"
Come to grips with your problems ( to some degree we all have them), list them one by one and reflect on them and how to practically solve them one by one. You will definitely require the help of others - maybe friends and family members. You definitely need to talk to others.

OLAADEGBU:
Here you go again with your bluffings, ad Hominens and ridicule to ease your ego.  Even if I copy and paste why didn't you address the issues at hand before attacking me?

I am not bluffing or attempting to ridicule you, but state my observations, whereby you search creationists sites and just copy and paste without having a general understanding of what is being discussed. And I think it will be unfair to accuse me of not addressing issues, i always try and explain in simple terms your questions, but most of the time you do not even try and reason my arguments, you just keep repeating what you copied from other websites like a mantra.

OLAADEGBU:
This again says so much about the so called evolutionary theory where the goalpost can be moved to suit their argument.  The fact that they cannot make up their minds as to whether the dinosaur is extinct or not is an example here.

Science is not like religion where you have to tow generally accepted dogma. Scientist make propositions based on available data, and those propositions are either modified or discarded completely with collection of new data. Also scientist are free to disagree with established theories and hypothesis and proffer their own, they only need to convince other scientists and present data that supports their new hypothesis. SO there is hardly any field of science that 100% accepted by all scientist, there are always a few renegades. That is what makes science dynamic.

OLAADEGBU:
Many evolutionists do not really think dinosaurs evolved into birds, for instance, in 1997, at the entrance to a bird exhibition at a zoo in Cincinnati, Ohio, it displays a sign stating the following words:

"Dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago--- or did they?  No, birds are essentially modern short-tailed feathered dinosaurs."

You are not exactly correct, scientists do not think that dinosaurs evolve directly into bird, they say that dinosaurs are close evolutionary relatives to modern birds, just like the chimpanzee is a close evolutionary relative of man, but chimps cannot evolved to become man, they branched off some 5 - 6 millions years ago.

Further more the quote above are gimmicks of the press to create interest. You know the way the press works, they try to sensationalize issues to create public attention.

OLAADEGBU:
Birds are warm-blooded and reptiles are cold blooded, but evolutionists who believe dinosaurs evolved into birds would like to see dinosaurs as warm-blooded to support the theory of Birdosaurs, whatever that means.  I will give a few quotes of evolutionists who disagree with your theory below:

Dr. Larry Martins, of the univ. of Kansas, "Recent research has shown the microscopic structure of dinosaur bones was characteristic of cold-blooded animals, so we are back to cold-blooded dinosaurs". - Stieg, Did birds evolve from dinosaurs? The Philadelphia Inquirer, March 1997.

Another concerns research on the embryonic origins of the "fingers" of birds and dinosaurs, shows that birds could not have evolved from dinosaurs.   - A. Burke and A. Feduccia, Developmental patterns and the identification of homologies in the avian hand, Science[/i]278:1229, 1997.

A study of the so called feathered dinosaur from China revealed that the dinosaur had a distinctively reptilian lung and diaphragm, which is distincly different from the avian lung. - J. Ruben et al., Lung structure and ventilation in theropod dinosaurs and early birds, [i]Science[b]278:[/b]1267-1270, 1997.

Another report said that the frayed edges that some thought to be "feathers" on the Chinese fossil are similar to the collagen fibres found immediately beneath the skin of sea snakes. - A. Gibbons, Plucking the feathered dinosaur, Science[b]278:[/b]1229,1997.

I quoted all these to say that there is no credible evidence to proof that dinosaurs evolved into birds, Dinosaurs have always been dinosaurs and birds have always been birds.  The belief that reptiles or dinosaurs evolved into birds requires reptilian scales on the way to becoming feathers, that is, transitional scales, not fully formed feathers.

I have said it before, that dinosaurs were first thought to be Large Lizards, but after many finds of numerous bones and fossils, they discarded that idea and realized that Dinosaurs are a different class of animals on their own, and the families of that class was much larger that the families of birds we have today. Further more the classification of dinosaurs was very loose, so it was not classed on whether they are cold blooded or warm blooded, or whether they are feathered or not.

You are trying to hard to straight jacket classifications, for example not all birds have feathers, not all birds can fly and birds are not the only class of animals that can fly.

OLAADEGBU:
Therefore, the similarities placed in creatures shows the hand of the One true Creator God who made everything.  The book of Genesis is clear that God didn't make birds from pre-existing dinosaurs.  Dinosaurs which was a land animal was created on Day 6 and came after winged creatures made on Day 5, according to the Bible.  Both biblically and scientifically, chicken eaters globally can rest easy because they are not eating mutant dinosaurs.

http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53

You people try to push you beliefs using absurd interpretations and linguistic gymnastics. No where in genesis did it say God created a class of animals called Birds, what it said was that " and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven". Do penguins and ostrich belong to the the "fowl class". Also how can they get to the firmament of heaven which was created on the second day. I thought firmament was space in which stars and planets were placed.


What i find irrational is the attempt by you to use a few lines of assertions like "and let there be" to give a technical explanation for the workings of everything, from biology to agriculture to physics. And you go further to try and compare it to volume of research in various disciplines.

I wish you could go on to explain the technical aspect of how Hebrew words could created a chicken or how dust could be converted to a man.

I am appalled when Nigerians condemns human right abuses when it affects them directly or appeals to their emotions but condone it when it is somebody else. How can someone defend the cold blooded murder of another person by the Nigerian police. Have any one given it a thought that the so called boko haram leader, Yusuf could be innocent. Could it be possible that the authorities arrested him based on faulty intelligence. After all Saddam Hussein was disposed and Iraq destroyed bases on faulty intelligence by the most "intelligent" agency in the world. Had anyone determined the level of culpability of the man.
How do they convince us that the murder was not politically motivated.

I believe every man should have his day in court.

noetic2:
From the above, it is safe to assume two things.
a. you witnessed the very first process of evolution. do u mind describing it? and also defining the chemical compositions.
b. you have recently seen an organism evolve. what organism has evolved during ur life time, with repeatable and verifiable evidences?

how was this DNA stand formed?

It is not possible for anyone to physically witness the first process of evolution, because it happened billions of years ago, before even the first single celled organism was formed, and most important of all, the conditions necessary to trigger the process is not longer available.

Yes organisms evolve during my life time, but most of them are not noticeable because of the very short life span of humans compared to the time span needed to see visible changes, which is sometimes tens of thousands of years.
Although it is possible to see evolution taking place in simple small short lived plants and insects and also simple unicellular  plants and animals.

The first DNA strand was formed by first the formation of simple amino acids from simple inorganic compounds in the atmosphere of the young earth, the amino acid underwent polymerization to form nucleic acids, one of the nucleic acid is DioxyboNucleic Acid (DNA), which is capable of self replication. Other nucleic acid polymerized to form proteins.

I just simplified the process to give you a general idea, the actual chemical process is very complex.

noetic2:
u did not answer my questions. . . .

why cant evolution end?
and when and how did evolution start?

Evolution cannot end because physical conditions such as climate, altitude and water on earth is not static and is not the same the world over. So evolution must continue to make sure that organism adapt to their peculiar environment.

Biological Evolution started the day a DNA stand was formed and started replicating itself.

Mr Olaadegun,

I wish you stick to your E-fellowship thread, where you are more useful instead of dabbling into areas you have no clue about, you think you can get bye just copying and pasting.

Your below statement is very wrong;

The fact is that dinosaurs are reptiles.  The major differences between birds and reptiles include the fact that living  reptiles are mostly cold - blooded creatures, while birds and mammals are warm-blooded.

Who is providing the[b] fact[/b] you are talking about.  Dinosaurs were initially assumed to be Large Reptiles (Lizards) because of the shapes of their bones as found in the 18th century. But today most paleontologists has stated that dinosaurs are a different class of animals more related to birds than even reptiles.

In plain english, it means dinosaurs are not birds and definitely not reptiles, but more closely related to birds. Is that too difficult to understand?

Sometimes read statements you copy and paste, you clearly stated that reptiles are mostly cold - blooded creatures, so where is the argument. It shows that not all reptiles are cold blooded.

Also not all dinosaurs are exothermic, some were endothermic. In fact being cold blooded or warm blooded was not the feature that separated dinosaurs from other classes.

@ Poster,

Please can you further elaborate what the symptoms of being under satanic bondage is? as I had never experienced such a phenomenon before.

how did you come under satanic bondage? what are the causative factors? and how have you been able to cope with those symptoms for all of 7 years.

Also tell us of your religious inclinations both African and Christian denomination.

If we know your symptoms, then perhaps we could help with possible solutions.

When you look at the entire Bible, you will not find one EVIL deed performed by Satan. He was accused of deceiving man to eat the fruit of knowledge, but the devil did not lie, he only told eve the truth. Besides God did not punish the Devil for that act, he only punished the serpent which allowed Satan to take over his body. The only other place Satan did something Bad was in the case of Job, where he punished Job, but it was with the full permission of God. Also Satan was said to have tempted Jesus, but refused the enticements of having the whole world ( as the whole world belongs to Satan).

The Major crime attributed to Satan is rebelling against God in heaven. But Satan must have had serious grievances against God, or else he would not have had so many followers from Gods angels. Maybe God was too autocratic and Satan and the angels wanted democracy, or maybe their condition of service was not good enough.

I think most of the time it is the agents of Satan that misbehaves and the whole blame is heaped on Satan, just like the followers of Christ misbehaves a lot, but the blame does not go to Jesus.

Sorry folks, i wrote my above response last night just before i was dealt with by my ISP, so i kept the post and posted it first thing this morning. i did not realize a lot of acid water had gone under the bridge.

Davidylan,

I must admit, that i did not see or read manmustwac's post, i thought you were educating us on something for a change.

Your arguments are very baseless and irrational, scientists say Dinosaurs are more closely related to birds than reptiles based on a study of collagen (protein)from soft tissue from a T.Rex ( which is the only tissue they have been able to find of a dinosaur), and matching it with the same protein in birds (chicken) and reptiles (frog), and it was found out that the protein of T.Rex matches that of chicken more than that of frogs or lizards. Thereby confirming that dinosaurs are more related to birds than lizard contrary to what was originally thought that lizards are descendants of dinosaurs. The word dinosaur itself means large lizard in Greek.

David, as a biologist, do you not understand simple classification of plants and animals? I feel embarrassed educating a PHD biologist on simple classification of living things.

Living things are divided into Kingdoms - Plants and Animals
Kingdoms are divided into Phyla
Phyla are divided into classes
Classes are divided into orders
orders are divided into families
families are divided into genera
And Genera is divided into species.

Today there are 5 classes of animals namely; mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, amphibians,and arthropods. Dinosaurs were said to have evolve from a common order of ancient Reptiles and formed a distinct class of animals, which is further divided into two classes - Saurischia and Ornithischia.

now if we are relating classes of animals, we will say birds are more related to mammals than reptiles, or that fish is more related to amphibians than mammals, or man is more related to cow than shark. Even within a class, we say man is more related to gorilla than say cat.
So relationships between animals is relative depending on how far apart they are on the evolutionary ladder.

Finally saying that T.Rex ( an example of a dinosaur) is more closely related to a Chicken (an example of a bird) does not in anyway signify that all dinosaurs evolved to become chickens.

David, i honestly do not understand your position. What exactly are your views? are you saying that the reports and studies concerning dinosaurs are cooked up or you are saying the inferences the draw from actual research is wrong?. You might even be saying that nothing like dinosaurs ever existed and that the bones and fossils are made up to deceive everyone. Or that living thing ever evolves and that every living thing had remained exactly as it was made and would remain so forever and ever. As a biologist how do you thing such a rigid animal would survive.

Finally, about evolutionary downsizing of animals, It is something i find fascinating. Because animals are getting smaller ( from bones, fossils and actual carcass of ancient animals found). You will find out that more ancient animals are considerably larger than their contemporary mates. An example is snakes, the oldest snakes which are anaconda and python are far bigger than their modern mates of vipers and cobras. I think it might have to do with efficiency, bigger snakes are crude and very inefficient - they kill by constriction, while modern snakes are sleek and very sophisticated - they kill by injection of poison. Evolution is about efficiency.

Even the mammoth which became extinct about 10,000 yrs ago is considerably larger than it modern equivalent - the elephant. Same for sharks and megalodon.

David, again you are misleading us, I just used google to check what you said about T.Rex evolving into birds. The paper you sited never made such claims, what it said was that the  finding is the first molecular evidence that birds, not lizards or other reptiles, are the closest living relatives of dinosaurs

A new study of ancient proteins retrieved from a Tyranosaurus rex fossil confirms the long-hypothesized evolutionary connection between dinosaurs and modern birds, experts say.

The finding is the first molecular evidence that birds, not lizards or other reptiles, are the closest living relatives of dinosaurs, the researchers note.

A close relationship between the two groups was already widely suspected, based on similarities in skeletal features.

The new research follows a breakthrough study last year in which scientists reported the recovery and partial molecular sequencing of T. rex and mastodon proteins.

Both dinosaur studies examined samples of collagen, the main protein component of bone.

In addition to cementing the dino-bird connection, the new study provides the first molecular evidence that mastodons and elephants are also closely related.

"This shows that if we can sequence even tiny pieces of fossil protein, we can establish evolutionary relationships," said co-author John Asara of Harvard Medical School, who also led the previous T. rex study.

Chris Organ of Harvard University is the lead author of the new report, which appears in tomorrow's issue of the journal Science.

From T. Rex to Chicken

The T. rex proteins were extracted from soft tissues preserved inside 68-million-year-old fossil remains first described in 2005.

The mastodon remains were much younger, dating to between 160,000 and 600,000 years ago.

Using a variety of techniques, the researchers compared the T. rex and mastodon protein sequences with those of 21 living animals, including ostriches, chickens, and alligators.

davidylan:
this man sef . . . try using your brain before posting these kind of thoughtless links.

1. The T. rex collagen protein showed a 58% similarity to chicken collagen . . . thus manmustwac and his crew believe (by faith of course since they've never seen this with their 2 eyes) that the T. rex "evolved" into a nice fat agric chicken!

2. But the T. rex collagen is 51% similar to that of frogs . . . so did some T. rex evolve into frogs while the rest matched on to be chickens?

3. Human collagen and that of cows is 97% similar . . . thus manmustwac must have evolved from a cow! FACT!  See that was easy!

I do not claim to be a biologist, but i know that the similarities between the DNA and collagen between all mammals is more than 95%, so it is very deceitful for you to use cow to buttress your point .


Please furnish me with a link that says it was T.Rex that evolved to birds. Because from what i know T.Rex did not survive the  mass extinction