₦airaland Forum

The attack of Lagos can never be justified, as a lot of Lagosians are in support of the agitations of the militants. Attacking a Yoruba State can turn the Yorubas against the Militants and the Niger Deltans, which would not augur well for their agitations. If they try to attack a core Hausa state like kano, i am sure every Niger Delta and even igbo person would be attacked by the indegenes. i think they should restrict their operations to their environments after all that is where all the oil is Located.

Our views on the ongoing militancy in the Niger Delta is usually beclouded by tribal interests and sentiments, the views can be summarized as follows;

The hausa see the agitations of the Niger Delta as an affront on their rights to control the wealth and power in the Nigerian federation, so see the militants and their supporters as criminals, and wishes silently and sometimes loudly that the militants and all their sympathizers to be wiped out, so that they get unfettered access to all the land and oil. After all more hausa owns oil blocks (which they had never visited) than any other tribe.

The Yorubas are more subtle and more divided in their views, some also sees the oil and the land as OUR oil and so should be distributed evenly. some are indifferent and some support the call for fiscal federalism.

The Igbo are in support of militancy to enforce resource control and self determination (even if it is partial) as they had also taken up arms against the federal govt in the past.

The Niger Deltans are in support of resource control and to some extent the militants as they understand the poverty level and underdevelopment of oil rich communities.  

Meanwhile the Hausa and Yoruba elites rulings this country are afraid and against true federalism. They are afraid of convening a conference where the various tribes making up Nigeria would all spleen out their grievances, these elites feel that they would lose out in such an arrangement. So they would try to keep the status quo, no matter the odds.

I have been thinking lately,

Can someone please give me a statistic of how many children of other countries public officers marry foreigners. How many other president's, prime minister's, ministers, governor,s even mayor's children marry foreigners or Nigerians for that matter. Are we not suffering from colomentality or inferiority complex?

Some Igbos or Yorubas would forbid their children marrying outside their tribe - especially Hausa, but would proudly give their daughter/son to an oyimbo man/woman even if the oyimbo is Arab or Labanese.

Ada, my wife's name sake, you have got it all wrong.
There is everything wrong with a minister of information whose re-branding motto is "Nigeria - Great Nation, Good People", whose daughter is marrying a "non Nigerian, in a very expensive ceremony( remember, AIT is not cheap), while the whole nation has not had light for 24hr now (i have been running on inverter), universities are on strike, no kerosene and gas to cook, every other sector is threatening to go on strike, even here constituency - public radio services are on strike.

So if you do not see anything morally wrong with that, then please tell me what can be wrong.

shawn123:
@congoshine
I read through the thread from page 1 and am not even sure i was reply to any of your suggestions, like i read through the pages i would suggest you read my response again.
I [b]support the idea of building a prison in Naija.
I do not think at this point the British owe us anything. All am asking is if they are considering building a prison in Nigeria then it simply means there are sooooo many Nigerian prisoner in England (False assylum seekers, fraudstars aka yahoo yahoo boys, rapists, killers, armed robbers). Critically looking at this : it just means the British arent the problem, we Nigerians are the problems!
If you were British am sure you would not want the so called criminals in your country! I dont blame them at all, its their country and they have the right to protect it, if we had soo many lebanese in our prisons today am damn sure you all would agree to building prisons in lebanon and sending them right back to their country. Like they say one bad egg spoils the rest![/b]

Shawn, your name sounds Scottish, Any way why are you unduly sensationalizing the issue. Nigerians are rarely involved in raping, homicide and armed robbery especially outside Nigeria. All they are after is pounds, dollars or foreign currencies. So they engage mainly in financial crimes and forgery of papers to allow them stay and work in the countries they illegally immigrate to.

If you carry out a statistics of convicted Nigerian criminals, you will find over 95% of them are financial related or immigration crimes and rarely violent crimes.

So do not give a dog an evil name in order to send it to hell.

If we assume that souls live forever, then the number of souls that have existed since the last incineration (save for Noah's family) would be an extremely large number indeed. In the region of hundreds of billions. So you think 20 percent of that would make it to heaven?, i do not think so.

First the Christ followers were concentrated in only a few population centers ( Western Europe) for most of its history. It was only in the 16th century that it began to spread to the Americas and Africa. In fact it was only the second part of the 19th century that it became established in some coastal parts of Africa. Christianity is yet to establish in large parts of Asia and the middle east.

So if you add up all the Christians from the time of Christ, i doubt you will have up to 3% of all souls who had been Christians.  Then when you consider the real sect that God might choose, the figure would go down to 0.5%. When you now factor in the actual sincere ones in that sect, you would not get more than 0.05% of all souls that ever existed from Christ's period.

Scanless, you too much. If you go for presido of Niga, i go support you fully.

Sauron and co,

If you want to test the desperation of Nigerians so that you can understand the effects of poverty caused in part and encouraged by your British host, perform this experiment;

Go to any pipeline in any state in Nigeria, the one used for pumping petrol to other parts of Nigeria. Look for one that is near a road so that people can get easy access to it. Then bust a huge hole and let petrol gush out. You can then go and announce the location of the busted pipe. Within minutes you will see people like flies all carrying buckets, pans and anything they can get their hands on. You will see people fighting to scoop fuel just to feed their family for a few days or at least a day. If you like carry a megaphone and announce that the fuel would definitely soon explode and burn everybody, and you would see that no one will listen. The inevitable out come is that they will all perish unless the law enforcement agencies stop them with guns or the flow of petrol is stopped.

PS: DO NOT TRY THIS IN ANY NORTHERN STATE OR YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR GENOCIDE IN THE HAGUE.

@ Sauron,
I have always been of the opinion that our low pace of social and  cultural evolution is the bane of Black African societies, both post colonial and precolonial, you can not absolve the British from the predicament we find our selves in today. In almost all countries the British ruled, they did not leave any form of physical, intellectual or social structure that will enable the mosiac of nationalities they forced together to survive.

The singular policy of creating a country comprising many Nationalities without regard for tribe resulted in some tribes residing in many different countries, and then handing over power to the minority tribe in one country while the same tribe is majority in another country planted the seed of perpetual discord and distrust. That policy was in place in Nigeria, Rwanda, Congo, Uganda, and many African countries.

You goofed when you said;

Mineral resources have always been in Nigeria. . . . .
Sugar, Cocoa and several farm products have always been there but they were properly managed under the noses of em colonial masters.

All these are not mineral resources, then these are cash crop that the British encouraged us to grow ( to the detriment of food crops) to drive British industries. Before colonialization we had no need for sugar and cocoa.

Save me your heresy. . . . . .
Without the OIL, Nigeria woulda been poor and poverty brings out over-aggression and anger.
Inequalities in the distribution of power and wealth would have been loads steeper and war would be imminent.

Please explain how inequalities in the distribution of power and wealth would have been steeper without oil. Because when we did not have oil, people eat and live peacefully in their villages, there was little inequalities in the distribution of power and wealth, and we had fairly stable societies.
Without oil how would we have had billionaires, while the majority of the people live in penury.

Although I do not support Nigerians into crime abroad, but i make bold to say that it is not as bad as the international press and their acolytes make it seem.

Nigerians are mostly involved with petty crimes. These are mainly financial crimes dues to value system imbibed by our elders, politicians and society where the "concept of making it suddenly" is the order of the day. Also these crimes can be traced to the poverty level the immigrants are coming from, their immigration status which makes them unemployable and the fact that they are mostly educated (some with even BSC and MSC), so they are able to add ingenuity to their crimes. These crimes as i said are mainly petty crimes like working with forged papers, credit card fraud and other banking fraud, 419 aka yahoo yahoo fraud, dole fraud and so on. If  white British citizens that perform these petty fraud, I am sure it would not even make back page news, the person would get at most 6 months and be let off. But if a Nigerian pick a pocket in Trafalgar Square it would make CNN's breaking news immediately.

Also the other crime Nigerians are involved with  is drug courier. As i said I am not in support of crime by Nigerians and those caught should be punished according to appropriate laws, but sensationalizing crimes by Nigerians looks like a profitable business.
Look the world drug trade is a huge mulinational business involving many countries and Nationals. Nigeria and Nigerians are just a courier point in the distribution chain. The others involved are Afghanistan, Bolivia, Columbia for planting of coca plant, some other countries including Asian and European countries process the coca plant to cocaine, Nigeria is transit point to consumer Nations of Europe and the US. Also the Nigerians are mostly involved with swallowing a few Kg of cocaine. The bulk suppliers are Italians, the Colombians and others. I am sure that Nigerians cannot contribute more than 3% of world cocaine distribution, so why is the focus only on Nigerians.

What i am trying to say is that more serious crime are perpetuated by other nationalities. Nigerians hardly get involved with violent crimes. Even in financial crimes the East Europeans are masters of Hacking and online  financial fraud.

Please do not think i support crimes of any sort, what i am against is the special hated for Nigerians, including some Nigerians Nationals who have taken another nationality.

No wonder Nigeria is like a ship without an engine and without a captain floating in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
The Blame for all these lies with OBJ, Please can someone tell me why OBJ imposed a walking corpse on Nigeria? is it to punish us for rejecting his third term Bid? or is it that Yaradua would be so bad, we will beg OBJ to come back to do the third term?

ScanLess:
Thank you very much Wirinet
Britain has been wicked to us from the day their gun boat hit the shores of Lagos, till now they have not stopped being wicked. of all the things they want to do in Nigeria is to build prison, to dump people they reject in their country. they cant eat their cake and still have it  lai lai!!, that prison project will never work , it is a cursed project that will never work. a nation of hypocrites calling themselves civilized people, with right hand they accept stolen money and with left hand they pursue the victims of their imperialism and call them illegal immigrants. all  the natural resources they stole from Nigeria is what developed their  economy, now they think they can shut poor Nigerians out of the action. na lie!, let me tell  U guys NIGERIANS HAVE A MORAL RIGHT TO LIVE IN UK AND ENJOY WHAT OUR NATURAL RESOURCES CONTRIBUTED IN BUILDING, OR ELSE UK SHOULD RETURN ALL THEY STOLE FROM US 7 FOLD!, ITS IN THE BIBLE THEY BROUGHT TO US!!!

Thank you ScanLess, you are very right, under moral standard every Nigerian should be give a right to live in Britain as was the case in the 60s and 70s. They colonized us, stole our resources and are still stealing our resources and bequeathed us a very unstable country and bad illiterate rulers. So they should also take some responsibility for their past actions. At least others like Hong Kong, Australians, and even Jamaican have the right to live in Britain because, they had a similar experience to us.

~Sauron~:
If they don't drill our oil and gas, Nigeria wouldn't have survived.
Credits to em for buying from us.
Are we going to eat our oil/gas? Do we even know what to do with it?
How many of our refineries are working at full pelt?

Our decision makers.

Biafra is part of Nigeria. . . . . .They are not going anywhere.

The cause of Niger-Delta crisis is the fact that our corrupt leaders are taking care of themselves rather than taking care of the masses.

There's enough to go round and i believe there should be a type of UK benefit system in the Niger-Delta.
Since these fishermen and farmers can't ply their trades, the government should work out an allowance for them every week to compensate for their loss.
It is not the duty of the Brits to sort that. . . . . .Nigeria is old enough to work that out themselves.

Hausas, Yorubas, Igbos and hundreds of other minority groups are all NIGERIANS.

Sauron, you disappoint me a great deal. You seem to be enjoying so much British hospitality that you look at situations from the point of view and interests  of the British to the detriment of your own people. Anyway Africa is used to betrays from indigenes, that is how Britain breeds loyalty.

How can you say that If they don't drill our oil and gas, Nigeria wouldn't have survived. Are you saying Nigeria as a whole would not survive or the ethnic Nationalities in Nigeria would not survive. Because the Nationalities in Nigeria had survived for hundreds if not thousand of years without any oil or even mineral resources. We even survived and developed (albeit slowly), without any mineral resources. We did not have wars and ethnic conflicts. I am Itsekiri and we live with the Ijaws for hundreds of years without any conflict whatsoever. So for  somebody to say "Nigeria without the oil woulda been worse than Niger republic and Somalia" is the greatest fallacy i have heard. It shows you have a zero sense of history or understanding of the history of your people.

Are you speculating that the reason for wars in Niger and Somalia is because they have no oil or mineral resources? I think you should take a course in history. Most conflicts in the world from time immemorial is usually caused by inequalities in the distribution of power,  wealth and opportunities between the various  components of that country. The components may be made up of social class, different religions, tribes,geographical location, etc.  Now go through all the conflicts the world had ever had, you will find  it is due to one inequalities within the system.

Now how can you say that "It is not the duty of the Brits to sort that. . . . . .Nigeria is old enough to work that out themselves." Who colonized us, who put us in the mess we find ourselves today, who is encouraging corruption in government. If Britain should make a Law that Bars corrupt politicians and their families from from obtaining visas, do you not think that that would be a greater deterrent that even going to jail? Because most of our polititians cannot stand not going to London at least once every month. But what do we have today? if you cannot show you have up to 5 million Naira in your account, or you have 500,000 pounds to invest in Britain, you would not be give a visa. Is that also not encouraging corruption?

If it is not the duty of the Brits to sort Nigeria out, how come it is their duty to sort Zimbabwe out. Why are they so determined to remove Mugabe?.

As i said Britain can build 100 prisons, if we churn out  millions of idle youths (both educated and uneducated) as a result of failed governments at the rate we are doing, illegal Nigerian immigrants would continue to flood  Britain.

Most people in this forum talk as if they have amnesia or they have a horrible sense of history.
Britain will not do anything that favours other nations especially a black one at that. The reason they are contemplating building prisons in Nigeria is because of the legal and financial dilemma they found themselves in. The possibility of being sued for human right abuse for sending a prisoner to his death in Nigerian prisons and the high cost of maintaining a high number of Nigerian criminals in British jails.    

I think sometimes we should not heap 100% of the blame of hapless Nigerian criticizes, if the British Government had not encourage corruption (in the name of national interest) in the beginning, Britain would not be infected with millions of jobless illegal immigrants today. Remember when Idiagbon was trying to get Dikko and other to return the loot they stole and face trial in Nigeria, the British government did not cooperate.  Even today we hear Switzerland returning some looted funds but i have never heard of Britain returning any stolen money, meanwhile London is the second home (sometime the first) of many of our thieving politicians. I am sure Britain holds more stolen money than Switzerland.

In the 70s and eighties when we still had a semblance of governance people were not trouping to London, even though there was no requirement for visa and ticket was less than 400 naira.  The only people going to england then were people that could not pass GCE ( as it was said that London GCE was easier) and  poor people who had no career in Nigeria. The rich people would just go for holidays and come back home.

What had the British ever build in Nigeria to favour the country? they never built schools, they did not provide hospitals. etc. The roads and railway they built was to move the raw materials they extract (steal) to the ports. And the GRAs they develop is to house their officials and houseboys.

If the british want to stop youths walking across the Sahara desert and swimming the Mediterranean and the British Channel to get to Britain, they better help us build schools, infrastructures and insist on good government.

strangleyo:
The Machines are American and their operation will probably be outsourced.
To be honest I just think it will become like Kenya where the vote will be clean but the losers will simply drum up thugs to fight for them anyways.

I vehemently disagree with your indictment of losers of elections in Nigeria. If the Elections are Free, Fair and Transparent, it would be foolhardy to complain and fight in such an election because the person would look stupid. Even in the case where the elections is disputed, the actual materials can easily be retrieved and recounted in your presence without any shenanigans.

But the voodoo results from voodoo elections in Nigeria will make a case for even a saint to complain, and besides if you do not compete in the thuggery, intimidation and/or ballot box snatching coupled with adequate bribing the electoral officers, police and other agencies, then you are not ready to challenge the incumbent. you votes would be easily "captured", - ask Tinunbu.

Jaytee67:
It looks like nothing can satisfy we Nigerians. Why not let us give this new approach a benefit of doubt first. If we have better suggestions we can equally bring them forward either by writing them in the dailies or submitting our own proposals to them one way or the other. Personally, I don't have faith in Iwu any longer also but I still believe the introduction of electronic voting is not a bad idea.

Where were you when Ekiti election re-run was taking place. They rigged glaringly right in front of us all, even with over 10,000 police men in only a few wards. Now how is electronic voting going to address fake results from INEC. How can you insult Nigerians by saying nothing can satisfied Nigerians, well if you are satisfied majority of Nigerians had been deceived time and time again.

To me we should go back to first principles - Option A4, let everybody stand behind a candidate of their choice and be counted. This secret-secret, open-secret or secret-open system we are operating is the biggest problem we have.

Electronic Voting System can only work were the Operators of the computer are bias party men appointed by Members on the ruling political parties. In our case where the Chairman of INEC and other commissioners are loyal party members, you can expect the result to be released before the actual voting takes place.

Recognise:
@ Both ^

- LagerWhenInDoubt, Jagunlabi

What a load of hogwash . . .

Bet it was the bottle that stirred and stimulated this kind of submission ^Joke

It was a Blackman that had the sense and vision to set Serena on her path to glory in the first place

The most powerful man in the world is blackman

Hasnt Barack done enough to deserve Michelle? . . .

Please drop the oversimplified opinion and image of the blackman

Please simplify the opinion and image of the black man for us. and in the meantime answer the following questions;

1. Why is that the black race had not made any scientific and technological contribution to the world till date.
2. Why had we not had any successful black society or civilization in the past or even today.
3. Why are we black so profanely vain, we celebrate excessively any think and at the flimsiest excuse.
4. Why are blacks so overly religious? we are are a dumping ground for all other foreign religions.
5. Why is it that most blacks only love to consume what others have made with their sweat, cars, phones, clothes, electronics, drugs, etc., but not interested in the work and technology behinds these innovations.

I have many more questions but these would do for now.

PS; don't use Obama as an example he is half white and half black, so can be claimed by both sides. Also he was raised by a white woman with white values and is not imbibed with black mans value system.

Nezan:
In as much as some people fake it, there are still true believers that actually speak in tongues

Please explains what speaking in tongues means. Use the bible in your explanation and not what your pastor says or commonly held interpretations.

Is someone speaking in tongues coherent and understandable or just incomprehensible blabberings?

I am surprised that the bones of Jesus could be a subject of discussion, even among Christians who should be more knowledgeable in Christ. The Bible and the Nicenean Creed clearly stated that Jesus died, was raised physically on the third day and later ascended to heaven physically (not spiritually) as some would have us believe. So Jesus did not physically die. His physical body will return in the state it ascended to heaven to collect his followers (physically too i guess). So where will they get the bones of Jesus from, Heaven?.

gen2genius,
Where have you been - Greenland?, Mr Olaadegun and I have come a long way on Nairaland, so we already have an idea of each other's perspective. You seem to be very new here on the religious section.

If you have anything to contribute to the thread, lets have it. If not let Mr Olaadegun answer his father's name.

My good friend Mr Olaadegun, the original copy and past master. I have seen this same response in another thread. Ok lets go through your definition of "Born Again" one by one.

Born Again

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

This verse had already been treated in the opening post and you have not made any comment on my observations.

The vital doctrine of regeneration has been applicable in all ages, for man by nature is a lost sinner and must be spiritually reborn through faith in God and His promises to be saved. This truth appears in the Old Testament, for example, in David's prayer: "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me" (Psalm 51:10).

I do not see what psalm 51:10 has to do with the term born again. Are you saying David was a born again or was becoming born again after saying that prayer.

It is emphasised more clearly and explicitly in the New Testament. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:5-6). "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Peter 1:23).

The problem with pastors and preacher is that they take a sentence right out of context, then look for a corresponding out of context support from any other part of the bible and the affirm what ever assertion they have.

For me to understand what the sentences above really means one should look at the sentence before the quoted verses and those after to understand the message the write was trying to pass through.

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


Obviously the writer talking about how malice and envy, hateful, and hating of each other and how the kindness and love of God can be made to appear, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, and by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. But also admonishes those that believed in God to be careful to maintain good works.

So the theme of this verse is not about born again.
Also in 1 Peter 1: 22-24
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

The writer was talking about unfeigned love of fellow brethren, so they should love one another with a pure heart fervently. the same statement then continues that they are born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

So being born again in the context it was used here has to do with love and not any other thing.
I think in those days there was a lot of hatred and disunity in the church and the writer admonishes members to be born again - change their heart and love one another.

Note that this spiritual birth is produced only through the eternal Word of God. "According to his abundant mercy," the Lord "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Peter 1:3-4).

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The part quoted by Olaadegun is part of the introductory paragraph (greetings) of a letter to strangers(church members maybe) scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. And it says they are begotten by unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. So it did not say that they should perform anything to become born again.

To be raised from spiritual death in sin to eternal life in Christ is a true miracle, as much so as the physical resurrection of Christ Himself, or even as the very creation of the world. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:6).

The above verse has not relationship with the term born again

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new |creation|: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). HMM

Also here it did not say born again, Pentecostals just interpret being in Christ to mean being born again.

So Mr Olaadegun had not defined "Born Again" nor the process of being "Born Again"

The problem with the genealogy of Jesus is that it is deceitful to trace it using Joseph as Joseph the carpenter was said to to have contributed any gene to Jesus's [b]gene[/b]alogy. We are not even sure if Mary contributed any gene either as she was said to be just a surrogate mother.

The term "born again" is the most popular word among pentecostal Christians, they say it is the most crucial aspect of their brand of Christianity. So it is important to find a definitive definition of what born again means.

The first use of the term can be found in John 3 of the King James Version.

John 3:1-22 (King James Version)

John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

From the above verses Nicodemus also was interested in knowing what born again means. First i would like to digress by observing that Nicodemus saw Jesus not as God or Son of God, but as a Rabbi, a spiritual teacher but one from God. He was not even interested in following Jesus, he only came to acknowledge Jesus as coming from God.

Now Jesus in explaining what born again means to be born of water and of spirit. So according to Jesus born again means to be born of water first ( which i guess means baptism) and then being born of the spirit. Jesus now went to to compare someone that is born of the spirit to a wind that blows and is heard but cannot be located. Now that is confusing, will someone that is born again become like a wind that cannot be located or will the person hear wind that he/she cannot locate.
Nicodemus also asked for more clarifications but Jesus did not oblige him, instead Jesus said he should know these things as a "master of Israel" and that he should more or less just believe everything he says.

Another digression, i wonder why Jesus would said "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." This statement seems out of context and out of place, he appears to be talking to an audience here and not specifically to Nicodemus. and who is our witness?

In conclusion Nicodemus did not understand what born again meant and refused to be born again, meaning Jesus himself did not succeed in converting the first person he preached to born again.


So Jesus never said that to be born again you must give your life to me and accept me as your personal saviour, come into me and control my whole life, as is practice today.

Also I find no body becoming a born again in a ritual or proclamation any where in the bible.

So i await a more informed theological explanation from my fellow born again Nairalanders.

Noetic your oneliners are becoming annoying, you contribute nothing, absolutely nothing to any discussion on nairaland save your standard responses. If you disagree with any argument or anything, highlight them and give your own responses or counter-arguments, not this is nonsense, you are uneducated, rubbish, you have not proved or said anything, etc. If you cannot proffer any point or argument then i will have to ignore your one-liners.

omo sexy,

I will congratulate you on carrying out research on what people want to sell to you. Your post fill me with nostalgia because i was in your position about 25 yrs ago. Let me just intimate you on my own experience. I was called one day by our house prefect (a deeper life member) into his room and he told me that he has a message specifically for me from God, he said God wanted me to give my life to him and that i should become a "born again". Honestly i did not know the difference between a born again and a christian as i had been a christian all my life (Anglican). So i told him to give me two weeks to think about it. I then went on to research what born again was and Christianity itself. Soon i started seeing cracks in the whole story. I also i was invited to their church service the following Sunday, I called my best friend to accompany me. On getting near the church, we started hearing lots of ghoully noises, so we decided just to peep through the window to see what was going on. And what we say was quite astonishing and unforgettable, The pastor would tell the congregation to cry as the devil had caused a lot of havoc to Gods plans for humanity and every body - man, woman and child was crying full of tears and wailing, this went on for about 10mins. Later the pastor then said that Jesus had defeated the devil and so should start rejoicing and the same people that were crying a few mins back were all laughing hysterically. We were so astounded that we just stood there watching afraid to go in. Anyway we made a u turn and went back to our hostels. Right there i knew this born again nonsense was not for me.

As for hypnotism, you are correct to observe that most religions use hypnotic technics to ensure total obedience and allegiance to the priests, pastors, imams, gurus, etc, even sometimes advertising companies use it to get viewers to have compulsion to buy their products.
It is this same method that Osama uses to get people to commit suicide for his cause. ( remember the initiates undergo intensive indoctrinations months before the suicide attacks.By the time they are finished, they are programmed to carry out their duty to machine perfection.

It is the same method that will make a person feel compulsion to give 10% of his earning to one man and any other thing the man (pastor asks for), sometimes it can be his life.

It is the same compulsion also that will make a man steal 50 million naira and give it all away to his pastor, when he is in great need.

It is the same compulsion that makes people believe and ready to find logic in stupid things, like a person living in the belly of a whale for three days, stopping of the sun to allow people prosecute a war, building of a tower to reach God, and lots of other bull shites.

Thank you for educating others, maybe your post can truly save some people from the worst kind of slavery - Mental Hypnotic Slavery.

@ ephisi

I totally disagree with you for saying someone who does not believe in spirits or souls is a kid or does not know what he is doing on earth.

When you sleep at knight ; YOU DREAM. And dreaming is not peculiar to any race, religion or sex, we all dream. In fact all mammals and even birds are known to perform REM sleep, which is associated with dreaming. So the ability to dream does not indicate we have a soul or spirit.

All through my youth days i was trying to understand the difference between mind, soul and spirit, and up till today, i do not understand what those terms mean, maybe you can explain them.

I will give credits to all the people that influenced my life positively, father, mother, wife, my lovely kids, friends and family. Then say IT IS FINISHED - THE END.

There you go again twisting and turning logic on its head, the nomadic, that tribes men that wrote the bible said what they thought was obvious that the moon rules the sky because on some nights the moon is indeed very bright and stays in the sky all night, and you are twisting it to mean the moon is the source of that light because of your ignorance of how light is made. There cannot be two sources for the same thing.

If you do not understand what you highlighted in red, Go and grab your elementary geography test book and study eclipses and how eclipses are formed. Alternatively go back to elementary school.

you simply hate pursuing scientific facts with me, cos u know that I always reveal ur IGNORANCE and FOLLY.
when u learn to TRUTHFULLY state and analyse facts, then u might be worth the attention.

That is the greatest fallacy on Nairaland, you have never, and i mean never made any meaningful  argument, you lift one or two quotations from the Bible, most times out of context, and when people like Toneyb, Kag, etc present incisive and well researched arguments, you simple answer each argument with a one liner or at least two liners like;
Noetic Standard Answers

I have repeatedly told u that this no point.

I must confess that u have a limited knowledge of the bible. This is forgiveable because u are an atheist.

This is a mere assumption, which u have failed to substantiate.

Now this is RIDICULOUS.

It has been shown to have NO answer at all.

Meaningless Rants.

He now interlace these with one biblical quotation, then use your signature tune " I have been able to  reveal ur IGNORANCE and FOLLY."

I have never seen Noetic present one fact. He waits for others to do all the work of typing and presents arguments then makes his usual contributions as above.

The source of Noetics ignorance must be the same source that says the moon is the source of light that shines from the moon at night.

Also the source of Venus must be Venus itself and when the moon is not out and Venus is the brightest object in the night sky, then temporarily Venus will rule the Night.

in addition, the body seems to have been taken under studio lights and hence the near even illumination, the head taken under another condition, the right arm under another condition and the environment under natural conditions.
So it is the joining of three four pictures

Thank you dexmond,

Also i can see photoshop editing at work in the photo. The right arm was wrongly joint, also the shadows are awkward, especially the arm and head.
Shadows easily give away fake pictures.

These people go to remarkable lengths to make people believe their fables, i wander then how it would have been easy in the past where the only means of communication is personal and no photos and tapes.