₦airaland Forum

Bidam: .....and that is why i said in my previous post that a Christian pays tithe not because the law demands it but because grace empowers us to give.

Speak for ya self. I don't know of any Christian that tithe gives 10% of his/her income to the pastor because grace empowers him/her to give, and i know lots of tithers 10% givers. The justification has always been "it is written in the bible that i must tithe" or Malachi 3 so the devourer will not come near him/her or just because the person want to hammer.

Bidam: .....and that is why i said in my previous post that a Christian pays tithe not because the law demands it but because grace empowers us to give.

Then you are no longer paying God's tithe, what you 'pay' is the pastoral tithe. It's good you know that.

Bidam: In God's kingdom we don't use that kind of authority.God also has sovereign authority but He can't function without the willing participation of a human vessel.

Bidam: I know about the levites.You forgot to mention that they also pay tithes. To whom do they pay tithes to?

The Levite's tithe went to the Aaron. That's also proof that the priest cannot collect tithe from the people. THE TITHE FOR THE PRIEST COMES FROM THE LEVITES. If you were to be a Jew from any other tribe, the priest officiating in the temple can never receive your tithe, instead it goes to the Levi people.

Bidam: Agreed love encompasses all and that is why i don't view tithe as being legalistic from the scriptural perspective sha.

Your tithing paying 10% of your income to your pastor becomes legalistic when you attempt to link it to God's command for the Isrealite to tithe their agric produce.

It is not legalistic if the giving was of your own volition and not because you are responding to a biblical command. The problem is that everybody (including Bidam) defending their 'tithing' activity here always try to justify it by reference to a biblical command. I don't see how you can convince me your 'tithing' is not an attempt to comply with a law (one that was never meant for you).

Bidam: O yes they did.It is not their fault if isreal disobeyed God's law just like some folks do these days.

The above is enough proof that the Levites don't have authority.

Definition of Authority:

The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience: e.g. "he had absolute authority over his subordinates".

The Levites don't have authority to collect tithe otherwise they squeeze it out of their brother Israelite.

Bidam: i was just making an analogy from the change of Aaronic priesthood to Christ according to heb 7. sorry if it sounded carnal to you.

You are not getting it. Tithe by inheritance was not just for being in the priestly office, it was for belonging to a particular tribe. Even if you never get to serve in the temple, you are still entitled to collect tithe.

Bidam: see me see wahala. Are you not the one talking about list? is it a crime for you to show me?

You can list the mosaic law, but cannot do same for love. That's where the more is coming from. The moral aspect of the mosaic law was an extract from the complete law (love). That should tell you the mosaic law is not complete.

Bidam: semantics. If a house is your by inheritance you have every authority or responsibility to the house no?

The Levites did not have authority to collect, otherwise they would have demanded it be paid. Read Nehemiah, they would return to the farm anytime the Israelite defaults.

Bidam: the change of the priesthood necessitated the change of ownership which is a far better covenant built on better promises.heb7:24

Change in priesthood necessitated the change in ownership Where is this from? which bible you dey read? Jesus collected the properties of the Levites That's so carnal of you

Bidam: Ok list the much more.

That is the problem with you people, always looking for a list. Can you measure/count love? I would describe it as a nature. It is what you are, what you have become in Christ. It is how you respond to life situations as you experience them on a daily basis. People like you that continues to look for a list of laws to obey don't have love yet.

Bidam: All Levitical authorities and responsibilities—which would include receiving tithes—have transferred to Him, who is also the Head of the church.

I still don't understand how the act of receiving tithe became an authority or responsibility for the Levites The tithe was not just something the Levites collects, the tithe was theirs by inheritance. Did God at anytime tell you you the Levites inheritance has been taken from them and given to Christ?

Bidam: Jesus gives authority in the church to His ministers to conduct His work on earth in His stead.So tithing should be a test and act of faith, a good work that pleases God.

Bidam: He did give us the LAW which is a summary of the two commandments of Christ.

Which law is a summary of the two commandments of Christ? You dey summarized the two commandments again? Or are you saying the two commandments is a summary of the mosaic law? If that's what you saying, I will say the moral aspect of the mosaic law can be found in the two commandments plus much more. The two commandments are not summary of the mosaic command cos they contain much more.

Bidam: Was it God intentions to be meant ONLY for the Jews from day one?

Before nkor? To practice God's tithe you need a Levi priest. You have to be ready to offer burnt offerings and comply with other requirements of the mosaic law.

Bidam: Then why should you put God before the tithe if it wasn't meant for christians. Do Christians worship a different God

Putting God before the tithe is to show am referring to tithe instituted by God (meant for the Jews only). It's different from pastoral tithe (the one you have been paying).

Bidam: Just show me, stop vomiting bile.

How do you abolish something that was never instituted? I told you God's tithe is not for Christians.

Bidam: Too bad you guys have been unable to show us that scripture.

You don't need the scripture to show that you God's tithe is not a Christian obligation. abi your name na Gersham or Seraphim

Bidam: And are givings abolished in the NT?

Some givings are abolished in the NT. i.e. tithing

olire: but there is one part of the ten commandments that is being ignored.

Which part?

striktlymi: I agree with some of the things you have said but the question is: if it is not the responsibility of the MoG to take care of the financial responsibilities of members then why can't he spend his money on some of his desires e.g a PJ?
...

If the money is his he can spend it how he likes including the purchase of a PJ. The thing is, the MOG will not really be practicing what he preach. Such behavior does not show a man that has love for his brothers and sisters. I mean if your conscience does not bother you when you swim in such luxury while a large proportion of your sheep cannot feed, then that MOG does not have Christ in him. His status as an MOG is doubtful.

striktlymi: Let me ask you this: do you consider a private car for these 'MoG' a necessity? Don't you think they can as well take cabs to get to their respective churches?

It depends. There is nothing wrong with an MOG having a private car and there is nothing wrong with him taking a cab. I don't see anything wrong with basic means of transportation. But again you did not specify the type of PC.

striktlymi: Hmmm...the above looks bad but let me ask you this: would you be cool if these 'MoG' take care of their needy members and also embark on some sort of charitable venture but still buy their jets?

I don't think it is the responsibility of the MOG to take care of the financial needs of members, but if he has to spare, he should. When it comes to the issue of showing brotherly love, the MOG should be mile ahead and he is not showing that if he has to use a PJ when a large proportion of his Church members does not even know when they will be having their next meal. So I don't think I'll be cool with the MOG riding a PJ when there is still much he can do with his resources.

striktlymi: Firstly, I did not say anything about the 'MoG' meeting all the needs of their members...

I know. My post was contributing to the general discussion picking up from where you stopped. The reason I quoted you.

striktlymi: and secondly, you did not answer any of my questions.

I will attempt your questions in subsequent posts

olire: is thou shall not steal a ritual? Is honor you father and mother a ritual? Is thou shall not commit adultery a ritual? Is worsip no other god a ritual? Is is honor the sabbath day a ritual? Is make no graven image a ritual? Gy please know the difference btwn 10 commandments and the ceremonial law. You are talking abt ceremonial laws, ARE YOU CIRCUMCISED?:@

You miss the point. I don't think they are saying we are now allowed to kill. The man said those rules still hold (I.e. the commandment not to kill), but you now do it by intuition. I think the difference here is that in Christ you respond to the will of God in a different way. The content of the 10 commandment still hold, but adherence is no longer based on the requirement/command to obey. In other words, not killing is not because there is a rule that says don't kill, It's now because your heart says It's wrong to kill or you can say it hurts you even more when you take the life of another.

From that perspective one can say the 10 commandment no longer applies.

striktlymi: Hmmm...the above looks bad but let me ask you this: would you be cool if these 'MoG' take care of their needy members and also embark on some sort of charitable venture but still buy their jets?

No MOG can completely meet the need of members. They can only try. If he attempt to meet all their needs, there will be no cash left to purchase a PJ.

PJs are avoidable luxury, especially for an MOG. Personally I think it is wrong for an MOG to live an extremely luxurious life in the midst of so much poverty. It does not reflect a man that truly concern bout the welfare of his flock.

Ihedinobi: Love, Scriptures say, is the Fulfillment of the Law. If I love, the proof will be in my keeping the "requirements" of the Law

True. but keeping the requirements of the law does not equate to love. That is the other approach to keeping the law. The Jews were keeping the requirements of the law without love, what you referred to as nonsense. unfortunately that's how a good number of Moses lovers keeps the law.

Ihedinobi: The written Law is useless to anyone whose obedience starts from the heart, eh? You are too confused for me to continue bothering with.

Think about it a minute, the law has been put inside us, that means that we have the natural tendency to obey God. But you go even further to insist that we automatically know what He wants us to obey Him in without any study of the Scriptures at all. Do the Scriptures agree with you? Do they not say that we are yet being led into all truth? Do they not command us all over the Scriptures to study the Word? Do they make a difference between the Commands in the Old Testament and any in the New such that Christians may study one part to know what their Lord wants and ignote another?

Because you want to sound smart, you read wrong meanings into my posts. I believe have stated in the past that there is nothing wrong with using the scriptures as stated in 2 Timothy 3:16. i trust you to forget that because it will not serve your purpose. If you must respond to my post respond to what you read and not what suit your agenda.

My position has always been that you do not need the written law if you are spirit led. you do not perform any activity just because it is written in the mosaic law that you should. You do it because you want to. and they don't go together. it's either you are responding to the written law or you are responding to something greater than the written law; in this case, the source of the law itself.

This was the post i was responding to:

Ihedinobi: perhaps and most likely, you do not consider such complaints as meaning that God's "thou shalt not commit adultery" actually meant "thou shalt not even so much as desire a woman who is not your wife to sleep with her"?

By not desiring your neighbor's woman, you are no longer obeying the command "thou shall not commit adultery", instead you are showing love for your neighbor. The command was specific; it says thou shall not commit adultery. and you know the law is sourced from love. by showing love, you have gone beyond the requirement of the written law. this is what i meant when i say the law is useless to anyone whose obedience start from the heart.

Ihedinobi: I assume you understood it enough to make your next argument.

Don't assume. Unless you don't have an answer to my question.

Ihedinobi: Now, about showing you the commandment, are you saying that you do not know that God's complaints in the Prophets implied that unless the obedience began from the heart it was just the same as disobedience to Him? Or that you do not know of such complaints? Or, perhaps and most likely, you do not consider such complaints as meaning that God's "thou shalt not commit adultery" actually meant "thou shalt not even so much as desire a woman who is not your wife to sleep with her"?

If only you listen to yourself, you will see that for anything that begins from the heart, you will never need the written law. If I do not desire, then I will never get to the stage where the written law applies I.e. I will not get to the stage where I actually go after the woman. Anyway you look at it, the written law is useless to anyone whose obedience start from the heart. You have much to learn, only if you are sincere to yourself, but I will leave to continue to deceive yourself.

Ihedinobi: However, it is your imagination that tells you that we Christians are guided by a written list. We have a Teacher Who guides us and He uses the Written Word to do His Work because He is working to re-create our mind or patterns of thought and attitude as much as changing our spiritual disposition.

If the 'teacher' uses the written word to teach you, it means you don't have the law written in your heart. the Jews were guided by the written law as well, and that did not take them far.

Ihedinobi: Have you read the Prophets? You should. In Malachi 2, God said the very same thing, the principle on which Jesus's teaching about divorce hinged. And did you never see Isaiah, I think, and Jeremiah speaking God's complaint, if you will, that the people served him with their lips and with their actions while their hearts were far from Him?

Would you like me to give you the particular Scriptures? I should be quite surprised if you really need them for ignorance of their existence.

You stated clearly that you know of what is added to (Mosaic) law to sum to love and i gave you two samples. i read the post above as saying the mosaic law is truly not complete. Show the commandment that says lust is as bad as adultery jor

Ihedinobi: However, it is your imagination that tells you that we Christians are guided by a written list. We have a Teacher Who guides us and He uses the Written Word to do His Work because He is working to re-create our mind or patterns of thought and attitude as much as changing our spiritual disposition.

Can you please explain the difference between the text in red and that in blue then.

Ihedinobi: The problem here is that you're missing this: "for the whole Law is summed up in these two". I paraphrase, of course.

Matthew 22:40 (NIV)
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

i.e. The law is sourced from the commandment to love.

Ihedinobi: We know of nothing new that is added to God's Law to sum to Love.

So what about the part where Christ said that lust is just as bad as committing adultery? what about the part where Jesus said divorce amouts to making the woman commit adultery? kindly show where these were written in the O.T. Please

Ihedinobi: We know of nothing new that is added to God's Law to sum to Love.

that's the problem. you guys are scanning the OT looking for laws to obey. If you only obey what is written in the O.T then all i see is somebody making a personal effort to live right using the Mosaic law as a guide. You are no different from the Jews. for any new experience that cannot be found in/explained by the Law of Moses, love will not apply. You cannot claim to be spirit led.

Ihedinobi: We know of nothing new that is added to God's Law to sum to Love.

See below.

Romans 13:9 (NIV)
9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Paul did not attempt to list all the laws that makes up the commandment to love. He said "whatever". this is something you discover in your daily living. My brother, as long as you continue to be guided by a written list, you are no different from the Jews.

Ihedinobi: Love, say the Scriptures, is the fulfillment of the Law. That means that all the Law is simply Love.

All the law is simply love, yes. But love is not just the all the Mosaic law.

Ihedinobi: You go fear difference na! So the difference between the two Laws that the same God gave is that one is a written code whose demands can be counted while the other is not. So it is not that the two Laws are saying different things. Ok oh!

before nkor?

Ihedinobi: Alright so, what are these thousand others?

Na wa for you o! abeg no give me arithmetic with no solution. How do you count love? leave me alone jor

Ihedinobi: And how does not needing the ten now translate to needing the two which still comprises them along with this thousand others? I mean, even if the two = one thousand other commandments + the ten, not needing the ten would mean having something less than and other than the two commandments because all we'll now have are the thousand others?

you did not read the car rental illustration, you just allow me to waste my time typing that thing i did not use the orange for that particular illustration because the orange na heavy consumable. i don't want a situation where you say you need another 10 after consuming the initial 10 . abeg read it all over again jor

Ihedinobi: Again, how does myriad more commandments help your case for no more commandments?

It's not a matter of no more commandment o! even you agreed that the law is a reflection of God character. and you stated that "whole point of the New Covenant was to make God's Character and Nature which was this New Man's Character and Nature too ours as well. Once that was done, God's demand aka the Law would be satisfied" so no more law for you to worry about why you come dey ask me this kind question na.