₦airaland Forum

Enigma: Bravo bros! Exquisite.

Thank you bros

Joagbaje: You are very correct brother. Heb 7 has nothing to do with tithe ending . NDU there's no ingle scripture in the bible that suggest or give any slight impression of ending of tithe . Offerings and tithing are everlasting principles.

You refused to specify the tithe that is everlasting. We know Abraham's type of tithe ended with Abraham, and the tithe to the Levites went with the Levite. So what tithe is everlasting? the fraud inspired pastoral version? I agree that one will not end as long as there is poverty and problem in the land and you don't expect to find that in the scriptures because it was not practiced at the time.

Joagbaje: You are very correct brother. Heb 7 has nothing to do with tithe ending . NDU there's no ingle scripture in the bible that suggest or give any slight impression of ending of tithe . Offerings and tithing are everlasting principles.

Hebrews 7 tells you that the tithe to the Levite went with them (because Hebrews 7 tells you it was only the Levites that had commandment according to the law to exact tithes from the people). it was the only tithing practice in operation at the time and it was the only tithing practice commanded by God). Your Abrahamic type tithe was nailed to the temple's wall the day moses delivered the new tithing model. What you practice today is man made.

The scripture may not tell you that tithe has ended. There is no need for that because every giving is a tenth (or 10%) of something. My giving in church last sunday could have been a tenth (or 10%) of the money in my wallet, meaning i gave a tithe of the money in my wallet we all give tithe one way or the other and the bible will not tell you to stop giving 10% because every giving could be 10% of something. What was abolished was the tithing practice defined/instituted by God himself. I am sure it's not that difficult for you to understand

Goshen360: Simply, God is not repeating the laws given to Moses on tablets of stones into our hearts but the laws he was talking about is LAWS OF THE SPIRIT of life....IN CHRIST. That's why I teach, we are not under the laws of Moses BUT DOESN'T MEAN WE ARE LAWLESS, WE UNDER THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT.

My view:

The law written on our heart is not a list of dos and don'ts (e.g. the law of Moses), it is a nature. It is what we have become (as true Christians). What is written on our heart is not the list (of dos and don'ts) but the source of that list itself. It is more complete (it cannot be quantified) because they is always a natural reaction to every situation. When you live by a list, you will need to do some scanning to identify the specific part of the law you be contravening (or required) for any situation So, by saying the law of moses is abolished one is not saying the Christian is now lawless, he has taken up a nature from which the law was sourced.

The law (of moses) is like the traffic light at the junction (with camera and traffic police to ensure compliance and sanction offenders), it is there to ensure order and protection of lives and properties (for those that ordinarily will not stop or care about other road users). The man that is by nature disciplined and have respect/concern for life will by nature approach the junction with care/caution (with or without the traffic light/police). This was why Paul stated that the law is good (for maintaining law & order) and is meant for criminals (law breakers), but it is not for the righteous. Any man that respond to an external requirement (i.e. the law of moses) does so based on the belief that he will be sanctioned for non-compliance (or may not reap the benefit resulting from compliance).

escavros: Dear Femi,
My Lord Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfil and perfect the law, he became to us a high priest after the order of Melchisedec (who was not a levite) who was before Abraham as it is written "...having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."
Jesus (who was not a levite) came also, but perfecting the law through his blood unto a new and everlasting covenant in that He lives forevermore like Melchisedec, unlike the Levites who could not out live the law. He by his own blood therefore has broken down the middle wall of partition thereby not restricting anyone access to the service of God. (Ephesians 2: 14-16)

You have one problem; and that is the need to defend your tithing practice any way possible. What is wrong with you saying "i give 10% of my income (tithe) to my church because i want to"? Nobody will crucify you for that! i don't see how that can be wrong! But it very obvious your tithing does not come from the heart, you either see it as a problem solving scheme (meaning you will not give if there is no profit) or you are afraid the devourer will come for you (mosaic law).

escavros: Dear Femi,
My Lord Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfil and perfect the law, he became to us a high priest after the order of Melchisedec (who was not a levite) who was before Abraham as it is written "...having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."
Jesus (who was not a levite) came also, but perfecting the law through his blood unto a new and everlasting covenant in that He lives forevermore like Melchisedec, unlike the Levites who could not out live the law. He by his own blood therefore has broken down the middle wall of partition thereby not restricting anyone access to the service of God. (Ephesians 2: 14-16)

You don't have to insult Christ's priesthood to defend your so called tithing practice. If you ever taken time off your tithing activities to study what you wrote up there, you would have seen that you've either elevated melchizedek to Godly status or you reduced Christ to the level of man.

escavros: - Chapter 8 tells of the imperfect state of the Levites in that they unlike Melchisedec, Levites do die.

Melchizedec is alive!? so where is he now?

debosky: May I attempt this question brother?

The Laws are how we should live our lives in Christ, as we are taught by the Spirit. These Laws are not instructions which were given as a placeholder for Christ, but they will point at the same ultimate goal - drawing us closer to God.

If you focus on the particulars/specifics and miss the goal, you end up just following laws and not understanding what God really wants you to do.

True talk.

Bidam: Why will you understand it when you read your bible like a newspaper.

before nko? it's good to read the bible in a relaxed mood. abi you want make i pull shirt to read bible again

Bidam: I very much disagree with goshen position in the sense that the Old was a type and shadow of the New. shadows fade they do not become extinct until we attain perfection. When perfection comes then the imperfect will disappear.

How do hope to achieve cleanliness when you keep wallowing in mud unless you let go of the things hindering your ability to attain perfection, you will only be deceiving ya self.

Bidam: I stand to be corrected but i know for a fact that the Jews( who do not believe in Jesus) and some group of jewish christians still keep the 3 feasts of Israel.

Based on scriptural insight and understanding the passover feast typifies our born again experience.Has the passover feast become extinct in Israel? NO.

The pentecost typifies our baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as experienced by the Apostles during the pentecost feast which spans about 50days. It is rather sad and unfortunate that most Christians are against this experience and some have not come fully to the scriptural insight and knowledge of this.( my thread spoke volumes about this ignorance). Are the jews still celebrating this? YES.

You see why some people dey call you judaizer. na burnt offering remain

Candour: Which tithing exactly are you talking about Joagbaje?

Joagbaje was referring to the fraud/greed inspired pastoral version of tithing. The tithe that involves members dashing their pastor 10% of their income. Nothing to do with the with the biblical tithe practices

Bidam: Paul says it is in the process of decay and is ready to vanish. He never categorically says it was abolished.

I don't understand the argument on whether the old covenant is in the process of decay. Bidam why are you holding on to something that is in the process of decay? you want it to decay completely before you move on abi?

Joagbaje: The tithe was not a shadow of anything . It's and endless ministry . As long as there's a high priest here must be tithing . Before and after the law . The priestly ministry of Jesus is endless

Says who? there is no scripture that supports the teaching that says there must be tithing as long as there's is a high priest. If you are unable to provide supporting scripture people will continue to see you as a fraud.

Joagbaje: From genesis to the New Testament . It's called tithe ,which means 10% it's pan for thousands of years , it's still called 10% . When we get to heaven we should ask God why not 50% of 5.

answer this question joagbaje, do you believe God will accept 10% of income from prostitution? what about 10% of takings from armed robbery? You can see tithe is not just 10%, it is a tenth of something. You can see it's not even the tenth (or 10%) of income, otherwise 'bad income' becomes acceptable. Because people are paying something that was never commanded by God, they have problem defining it. Today people pay what they or their pastor define as 10%. Tithe in the bible was never 10%. it was a/the tenth of something and the Jews did not have problem paying their tithe cos God defined his tithe in Leviticus 27.

Joagbaje: You should note that for a giver , 10% is the least of our givings . It's too small to be a debate . Is the problem the amount or the name?

I don't have problem with the amount you give to your pastor or what you decide to call the giving/paying. That's your wahala. We have a problem when you decide to teach that it is a commandment from God and justify it using you Malachi or Mathew 23. it is also wrong of you (and every other teacher) to teach that people should give 10% of their income as tithe to the church/pastor. It is no longer freewill giving. If God's law is now written on the heart, let the heart decide the giving. we no longer live by the law written on stone.

Joagbaje: By default , the ministers in the tabernacle. But there are some indication some individual prophets recieved similar things . For example FIRSTFRUITS belong to the terbenacke but it was brought to the prophet here .

2 Kings 4:42
And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat


But it's not an issue for now. But because you asked

I believe we are discussing tithe here. The law of tithe is not the same as the law for the first-fruit.

Joagbaje: The law in the New Testament in embedded in our nature of love. It's a nature to us. We only do contrary by our rebellion

exactly what we been telling the lovers of the mosaic law. True Christians don't respond to mosaic law anymore, it's no longer useful/relevant.

Bidam: hence thousand of years even before the coming of Christ Jeremiah prophesied that God will make a covenant with his people by writing His laws in the tablets of their hearts and no longer the tablets of stones.This now makes Jesus as our high priest and the Holy Spirit now instructs our heart and directs our thoughts and actions(that is the change of law).

Finally. Bidam agrees that there was a change of law

Joagbaje: secondly the primary ways the work of ministry was sponsored in he Old Testament was through tithes and offerings .

You don start which work of the ministry was supported through tithe in the OT? was it the work of Jeremiah, Elijah or Elisha? which prophet received tithe in the OT. Have told you to stop deceiving people with your tithing belief, you no dey hear The tithe was meant for the Levites only for their living. No other men of God received tithe in the OT an indication it was restricted to the Levi community.

Joagbaje: Paul made it clear that similar things should apply in the church .

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Paul did not say similar things! otherwise burnt offerings becomes applicable as well (based on the fact that it was items for burnt offerings that came to the altar). The Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live off the gospel, the Lord did not say they should live off the things of the temple or stuffs deposited on the altar. Corinthians 9 is only telling us that those preaching the gospel have right to live off the gospel, it does not provide the details. For tithe to qualify you need to find scripture where the Lord commanded Christians to support the gospel with tithe.

Joagbaje: Tithing and offerings are Paralell principles which both existed before he law.

I agree that the giving of a tenth existed before the law, but it was not the tithe instituted by God. God defined his tithe in Leviticus 27.

Joagbaje: God reprimanded isreal for not giving him tithes and offerings.

Yes, his tithe as defined in Leviticus 27 and beneficiary in Numbers 18.

Joagbaje: God never put an end to the two.

God's tithe went with the Levites along with other forms of offering associated with them.

Joagbaje: You can't say you will give only offerings and not give tithes. If you give offerings without seeing it as obligation under the law ,you should give itches also .

offerings today is not because it was done in the OT, and it's not because it was done before the law. We give because Christ and the apostles taught that we should love. and there is no format or percentage for the giving.

Joagbaje: You can't say you will give only offerings and not give tithes. If you give offerings without seeing it as obligation under the law ,you should give itches also .

if you give/pay tithe today, who defines/determine the tithe? Man or God? 'tithers' and pastors defined the modern day tithe and you are telling us it belongs to God! How?

Joagbaje: If you give offerings without seeing it as obligation under the law ,you should give itches also .

Says who? Joagbaje? my brother you are not in a position to tell God's people what to give.

chukwudi44: All he has to do is to continue to impress the SS/SE/MB to continue to retain their support.

i don't think this will work o! Buhari adopted a similar approach and lost.

chukwudi44: Zikky I am not showing politics of hatred.I am merely poiting out facts.

2011 facts you need to update the information in your database to reflect current realities. The truth is that the president already lost a lot of goodwill.

chukwudi44: The hausa fulanis have been attacking and killing both tivs,idomas,jukuns,beroms and everyother minority xtain tribes of the north.

Now you mothafuckers want their votes!!just yesterday 33 people were killed in !orno,plateau and benue state and you still wanty me to believe they will vote for hausa-fulani muslim candidates.

Abdullahi adamu is a political laiability!! APc won the gubernatorial polls in the state because of his inefficiency and poor governance.GEJ of course won the presidential elections there and would repeat the same feat again.

I trust the ombatse militia to check any attempt by hausa-fulani militia to rig any of the elections

Your politics of hatred is not helping the president and i think its too early for the calculations, it can swing either way depending on how GEJ play his game. there so much much happening behind the scenes. If the president is not careful PDP may end up a SE/Bayelsa/Akwa Ibom party.

Enigma: Bros, please let me excuse myself; I think it is better that I just make my own position known as I have done.

Specifically on 1 John 3:9, I suggest reading it in the NIV just for an idea of how it might be interpreted without taking anything away from 1 Peter 1:23.

i agree with you as well.

btw @all, when are we having the e-prosperity convention

whatofyou: l thought d topic said: must everybody be rich. Make una manage with the patch-patch wey I dey use mend the first post. I see faster than my shadow. LOL

It all depends on your definition of the word 'rich'.

Kenny4lyfe: If you can bring forth God's blessings from within yourself then, that's it!

What do you mean by "that's it"? are you confirming pastor chris statement that all i need to get God's blessing is to bring forth the word from within?

Kenny4lyfe: Stop paying tithes to pastors, in fact don't sow seeds, they don't need it! And stop whining about with how you got it all wrong with your understanding

You can't tell me what to stop or start. you are not the pastor. Go find solution to your personal problem and leave me with pastor chris and the very much more matured joagbaje & Gombs, my brother.

Gombs: Sir, seeds are sown to activate a harvest. Now, since everything is inside us, we draw out monies to sow from within us, through faith filled words in line with what God says.

Gombs: So in short, you call forth monies from within God's spirit in you, through faith filled words, to sow ( give) in order to get a harvest (receive).

Now you are talking. So it is 'seed sowing' money we bring forth from within the word only accompany the money, so the money will yield a good harvest. This is what am talking about. If pastor chris sermon was this explanatory, there would be no need for me asking for additional clarification. Now i can link bringing forth the 'word' with the seed sowing teachings. Thanks. appreciate your help here.

and i take it all back; pastor chris is not inconsistent. he is very consistent

Gombs: It's a semi parable , I hope you get it now, if you still don't, we'd have to wait for Jesus' coming, to explain to you himself.

No need to wait for Jesus. i get it now

Gombs: Semi parable o! I didn't say Jesus' parable of the sower is same as my own analogy. I'm not saying Jesus said the seed the sower sowed was likened to monies. This is my own parable o!

No wahala my brother, i read you loud and clear Thanks

Kenny4lyfe: It's nice to know you recognised a solution when you see one!

....a solution that is addressing a problem you created for yourself.

Joagbaje: I already answered in my previous post , we are blessed already without condition, but to lay hold on these blessing ,there are principles in Gods kingdom to live by. Worship ,prayer ,giving ,etc are all principle , they don't make us acceptable with God, we are acceptable by the blood of Jesus , we are blessed on the account of his death, but we can be blessed and die in poverty. If a man doesn't exercise faith, if a man doesn't give,if a man doesn't pray , he will miss benefits in God even though it has his name printed on them from heaven.
[

It's like Dangote telling his son; "all my wealth i give to you as inheritance, they are all yours. The will already prepared and signed off. but to lay claim and have access to it, you must do/fulfill the following conditions". The condition to be fulfilled is not the reason for the father passing the wealth to the son. But can we say the inheritance is without a condition? prior to fulfilling those conditions, can the son boast that the father's property is his for the taking? what happens if he is unable to fulfill the conditions? following the reasoning in your post, i will not say we are blessed already, i would rather say we qualify for God's blessings, but to receive the blessings we need to do so & so activities. But this is not even my concern.......

Joagbaje: Like Jesus, you not only have the God-life to the full,you also received the Spirit without measure (John 3:34); thus, all you need is inside you. What are the good things you desire? Bring them forth from within you with your words! What do you want; what do you need; what do you want to see outside?

.......this is my concern; the fulfilment of the conditions. The bolded above says the fulfillment of the conditions is achieved by me bringing them forth from within with words. He did not say this is just part of the requirement. So if i can get what i want (God's blessings) by bringing forth with my words, why am i still sowing left right and center?

So oga Jo, i don't understand why a pastor will encourage both seed sowing and using the word, unless the pastor needs the money.

Joagbaje: If you go about bible study that way, you will mess things up. We must recognize the context of a writing ,
[

Now am having issues recognizing the context, all you need to do is assist. You have shown maturity and understanding in your response (expected of you), so finish the good work.

Joagbaje: We must recognize the context of a writing , I'f not , we will judge and criticize even Jesus himself because certain things will look contradictory .

Matthew 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth. . .


James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

[

i am not looking at contradiction between the teaching of pastor chris and pastor adeboye. If you have instances where Jesus appears to be contradicting himself, we can look at that.

Joagbaje: Jesus didnt provide the balance....
[

....because he did not contradict himself.

Kenny4lyfe: Did I still hear you say there's no need for sowing seeds and tithing again yes?[/b]

Ask your pastor. he is the one saying everything is inside you. sowing seed for what purpose when everything is inside you?

Kenny4lyfe: I've got just the right medicine for your confused mind!
What to you say about this:

"While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Genesis 8:22

Did I still hear you say there's no need for sowing seeds and tithing again yes?

you are even more confused. you don't even understand my concern and you are providing solutions.

striktlymi: In my opinion, we become greedy when we want more without being willing to share.

Okay. Interpreted to mean "greed comes from the accumulation of resources".

striktlymi: In my opinion, we become greedy when we want more without being willing to share.

i agree. God want us to share (from those with excess to those with deficit). all needs should be satisfied.

Gombs: Proofs pls. I know his pastor is as consistent as anything good could be

You need proof?? address the one i raised here. show that am wrong before asking for other proof.

Kenny4lyfe: You are indeed "confused!"
If you don't mind me asking, are you by any chance a descendant of confusious? 'Cus he was confused too!

Another sad soul! direct your anger at your pastor please. its not my fault your pastor has a reputation of being inconsistent (in his teachings).

Bidam: Of cos i am not disappointed,you have a penchant for play of words.No be zikkyy wey i know..

Na so you talk If you want me to respond to your question open another thread and i will respond. am being honest here, my intention was never an attempt to turn this to a tithe discussion thread. my reference to tithe/seed sowing was to show what i see as inconsistency in pastoral teachings. So i cannot discuss tithe or no tithe here.

striktlymi: If we define wealth in terms of our 'want' then we would miss the mark. I would rather prefer to define wealth in terms of our 'needs'. We can't have enough resources to satisfy our every want but we can have more than enough to satisfy our needs. If someone has enough resources to meet his needs and more then that individual can be termed to be wealthy.

I read you saying anyone with resources in excess of his needs (no specific measure/amount given though) is wealthy. So a beggar under obalende bridge with his basic needs satisfied (having more than enough cash to buy agege bread, he is clothed and obalende bridge provide shelter provides shelter) can be considered wealthy.

striktlymi: The resources we have in the world are enough to go round and make everyone rich. If they were not enough, then God would have been a very bad father. Thankfully, he is good and he has provided for us. The problem we are having is basically greed and selfishness.

You still need to define what you mean by 'rich'. if you are saying having resources in excess of our need, then to what extent? for sure we cannot have 6 billion bill gates. the earth resources cannot support it.

At what point having in excess of our needs becomes greed/selfishness.

Joagbaje: There's no talk about sowing of seed in this thread.

It is not advisable to take the various teachings in isolation. they must complement each other. When i read the OP, i take into consideration other teachings i have heard/read.

Joagbaje: you could as well say we dont need to worship God or pray to him again since everything is inside you.

To honest that's exactly my understanding of the extract below......

Joagbaje: Let me put it this way for you to have a clearer picture: when a man wants anything, which he feels he has no ability for, he prays to God and expects God to answer. However, that isn’t God’s dream for man. God didn’t create man to be limited or disadvantaged; He didn’t want man to need anything from outside him. That’s why He made the God-life available through Christ Jesus. When you received Christ, you received inherent life that requires no aid or support from outside.

Joagbaje: dont jump on one sided truth ,get the balance.

I think it is the preacher that need to provide the balance. You don't just expect me to shout waaooh! anytime you post something from pastor chris (just because it's coming from pastor chris), i need to first process the info and request clarification if confused.

It would be nice if you can help with that clarification sir. The seed sowing teaching indicates a Christian need external help. Thanks.

Bidam: Eisegesis abi? Ok how did you/una/we know?

It obvious you will never get it. So let me assist. responding to your question on whether Jesus tithed will end up derailing this thread. My comment is not about whether Jesus tithed but whether Jesus tithed and/or (sowed seeds) to solve problems. I hope you understand. I am comparing the teaching of seed sowing to solving your problems with your word.

The question of whether Jesus tithed at all should be for another thread. So kindly rephrase your question if you want me to respond. Thanks