₦airaland Forum

Alwaystrue: Love is the fruit of the spirit and is the very nature of God as God is love so whoever receives Him into His heart has fulfilled the law as God wills and does HIS GREAT PLEASURE in the life of a believer. The written/voiced (commandments) to the Isrealites are summed up in the Spirit/life (love).

I have to say i like your posts. but i like this one better with the minor correction i made. Don't be annoyed.

Bidam: na God catch you.

What are you talking about this time

Alwaystrue: Atleast people have learnt the 10 commandments were given direct by God in His own voice and @Bidam gave some more justice to it. Hence they cannot be called Mosaic laws.

Mosaic law does not mean the law originated from Moses. Other laws given by Moses were from God. It does not matter or change anything whether delivered directly by God or through a messenger, the 10 commandment went with other laws. When GOD was dishing out the 10 commandment, it was strictly for the Israelite, and we are all aware that Moses did not sprinkle blood on members of the Christian church when executing the covenant. abi you are one those peeps that said "We will do everything that the LORD has told us."

The 10 commandments (as stated in the books of Moses) was strictly an instruction to the Israelite. That is not to say killing before the 10 commandment came into existence was something God allowed, same for worshipping other Gods e.t.c. Like Bidam stated in one of his/her post the commandments are a reflection of God's character and does not change. God will always be against killing, 'cornering' your neighbor's wife/husband, worshipping other gods e.t.c.

Alwaystrue: @Zikky, oops thanks. Take that to mean 'Keep the commandments of God' (Rev.14:12; 12:17)
If you cancel that out, just provide scriptural backing.

Lol okay, no wahala.

Alwaystrue: @ichuka,
Paul said WALK in the SPIRIT! Galatians 5:16. And that means walk in love, peace, patience, self-control etc for against such there is no law (Gal. 5:22) as you have already fulfilled the law. That is how to keep the law. At the end of the day you will realise you cannot covet, lie, steal, bear false witness etc.

Good talk.

shdemidemi: I don't believe we need any part of the law of Moses as Christians, be it morals or ceremonial.

Goshen's post is interpreted to mean Christians can kill, lie, worship idols (as they are no longer required to adhere to the law of Moses). That is not my understanding of Goshen's post. You also have to understand that these peeps don't see Moses when they read the 10 commandment, they see it as a direct instruction from God (according to Bidam, it's a reflection of God's character) and is therefore applicable to all. you need to make some clarifications so they understand your position.

shdemidemi: I don't believe we need any part of the law of Moses as Christians, be it morals or ceremonial.

I agree to the extent that Christians should not be led by the letter (the commandment given to the Israelite in the OT as it was strictly for the O.T Jews). it truly does not reflect one that is led by the spirit.

Bidam: And this is where i tend to slightly disagree with your views.Reasons because you feel that the ten commandments God gave Moses are part of the old covenant and are done away with.Jesus and Paul never taught that.WHY? Because they contain the very character of God which is LOVE. They enable us to know what God is like. Since the character of God remains unchanging-“I change not, saith the Eternal”(Mal. 3:6 ).

I don't think Goshen is saying Christians now have freedom to kill, worship other gods, disrespect their parents e.t.c. my understanding of what Goshen is saying is that relevant bit of the moral law were included in NT teachings. The command as dished out in OT was directed at the Jews only.

MostHigh: STUMPED.

MostHigh: Your response is typical of you and shidedemi when your stumped

stumped what are you talking about?

Because i said "your waka just dey start"? you don't believe am telling you the truth?

MostHigh: This law of Yashua you speak Where can one obtain it to read?

you are going to Sokoto to look for something that should be inside your shokoto. Your waka Just dey start

CAMEROONPRIDE: are u Catholic?(if u don't mind me asking?)

Have been expecting this. Thanks for asking and my apologies for not providing the answer you want cos i don't discuss personal matters online. Sorry to disappoint.

Enigma: Now, let me flip the question:

Will you say that the Anglican Church today, the Baptists, the Methodists (to take specific less controversial examples) are not part of "the Church"?

Are they not part of the "Church" that "came into existence" on the day of Pentecost of Acts chapter 2?

Bros this na difficult question o! Thank God you no be lecturer.

i just wonder what it means to say a church ( a community of believers) is not part of the "Church" that "came into existence" on the day of Pentecost. Would that amount to saying they are not part of God's family? that they are on their own? There are questions i don't answer and this will be one of them. I think the Almighty is in a better position to answer this question. i don't condemn any church or people cos i don't know. i'll stick to criticizing fraudulent teachings like tithing it's much easier.

DrummaBoy: Tithing is obsolete, defunct and gone with the Moses.

Just in case you are not aware, some of our Christian brothers & sisters (including pastors) went with Moses as well.

Enigma: The decision on the selection of the books of the New Testament or even of the whole Bible (including the Old Testament) was NOT made under the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and not even under the "leadership" of the historic Church of Rome.

That claim is a falsehood, well a lie, that some people are spreading.

The Roman Catholic Church itself did not finalise its own canon of the Bible until the Council of Trent in the 16th century.

Alternatively, Roman Catholics like to point to regional synods of Hippo and Carthage which were African affairs and were not subject to the authority of the Church of Rome --- granted in the spirit of that age they essentially informed the Church of Rome of their decision for "consultation" NOT ratification.

In any event even that was predated by the canon identified by Athanasius (of Alexandria) without any involvement of the Church of Rome ---- several years before.

On top of which Athanasius said that this was a canon that had been handed down.

As I said, we can trace even much earlier canons down to Origen (and even earlier than that).

Okay. No wahala. I leave this to my brothers to respond, if they are in the mood spirit.

Enigma: Let me ask a series of questions:

A.
Was it the Church of Jerusalem that "compiled" the Bible?
Did the Church of Jerusalem "predate" the Bible?
Was the Church of Jerusalem subject to the "authority" of the Church of Rome let alone the Roman Catholic Church?


B.
Was it the Church at Alexandria that "compiled" the Bible?
Did the Church at Alexandria "predate" the Bible?
Was the Church at Alexandria subject to the "authority" of the Church of Rome let alone the Roman Catholic Church?


C.
Was it the Church at Antioch that "compiled" the Bible?
Did the Church at Antioch "predate" the Bible?
Was the Church at Antioch subject to the "authority" of the Church of Rome let alone the Roman Catholic Church?

Hope these questions not meant for zikkyy cos you will be asking the wrong person. my reading never reach that level. Maybe if you made it multiple choice questions

Enigma: zikky bros
Let me ask a series of questions:

A.
Was it the Church of Jerusalem that "compiled" the Bible?
Did the Church of Jerusalem "predate" the Bible?
Was the Church of Jerusalem subject to the "authority" of the Church of Rome let alone the Roman Catholic Church?

I have one question sha. are you saying the "Church of Rome" is not the same as the "Roman Catholic Church"?

Enigma: @zikky

I am only replying because it is you;

Thank you Bros.

Enigma: Regarding your post I make a short response.

Consider which church predates the Old Testament.

Ask where the Roman Catholic Church was on the day of Pentecost.

Ask where the Roman Catholic Church was when Peter spoke of the apostle Paul's letters.

Ask where the Roman Catholic Church was when the apostle Paul was asking various Churches to circulate his letters among themselves.

Ask whether the Roman Catholic Church was involved when Origen of Alexandria (later declared a 'heretic' by Roman Catholics) was "compiling" the books of the Bible.

was hoping you will provide some clarification. my understanding was that the Roman Catholic Church was part of the early church. If the church can trace its origin to the apostles i ordinarily would assume it was part of that church.

Its different if it started from scratch centuries later; i.e. new doctrine, new members (no affiliation with early christian community).

Don't believe origin is an issue. what i assume to be an issue here is if the decision which letters/writings to be included in the Christian handbook/bible (no mind me ) was taken under the leadership of the church at Rome or it was joint effort/decision with no particular church providing leadership. You did mention origen compiling the bible in your post. Maybe it was a one man effort then I no dey there when the bible was compiled so i no fit talk much

Enigma: I have already provided extended arguments and facts on this matter on several threads.

Bros, no vex abeg. was not following the threads. did not want to participate in the fight/insults at the time.

striktlymi: Hello KC,
You are being kinda superstitious now. Your situation did not plummet because you gave, unless you are saying that you gave out of your 'Initial capital + plough back profits'...

If this is what you did, then I don't think it is appropriate. If you must give, then give from what you have. Your initial capital and plough back profits belong to your business and not you. Your dustributable profits belongs to you and from this you can give.

If the man wants to adhere to the command to the Israelite, he must tithe capital as well. Tithing on profit amounts to fraud God did not tell the Israeli farmer to first deduct the seeds for next planting season before computing the tenth of the harvest. If the man wants to tithe his business, he should calculate a tenth of his gross earnings, otherwise he should consider giving instead of tithing. The problem with most tithers today is that they on their own (most times in collabo with their pastor) decide what their tithe should be when God already defined his tithe.

Enigma: The Roman Catholic Church did NOT and does NOT predate the Bible.

The Bible was already written and/or in "compilation" before the word "catholic" was used in relation to the Church.

It is the Christian Church (NOT the Roman Catholic Church) that can be said to predate some parts of the Bible i.e. the New Testament.

At the worst, the Christian Church began to exist c. 33AD i.e. the day of Pentecost.

Shortly afterwards, the books of the New Testament of the Bible began to be written by the various authors.

The word "catholic" was first used in relation to the Christian Church c. 110AD i.e. about 80 years after the "birth day" of the Church on Pentecost.

Even then, the word "catholic" did NOT mean or refer to the Roman Catholic Church. It was used to refer, quite simply, to the "universal" Church.

In other words "catholic" as used then and as used by many Christians even today simply means the "universal" Church.

By 110AD when the word "catholic" was first used in relation to the Christian Church, most of the books of the Bible had already been written.

I repeat that it is a falsehood, indeed a lie to say that the Roman Catholic Church predates and/or "compiled" the Bible.

If the 'church' predates the NT, it also imply the 'Roman Catholic Church' predates the NT. The use of the word 'catholic' should not signify a new beginning. Unless you are saying the Roman Catholic Church was never part of the original church and was founded centuries later. Can we then say Rome did not participate in the compilation? I think the argument should be about the influence of Rome in early Church activities. Can we say each church was independent and did not require consultation with Rome (or any other authority) on matters pertaining to church doctrine?

Maybe the churches were truly independent and did not require a central authority after the death of the founding apostles. i don't know much about early church history to take a position, but i think this is the bit that need to be considered in determining the role of Rome in the compilation of the bible.

^^@italo, are you a priest? you are beginning to sound like one.

taharqa2: Not only are local Businessmen/investor's Confidence in d Economy increasing, but those of Foreign Investors are also increasing : highest FDI in Africa in 2 years at a row, and just day b4 yterday Nigeria's Europe Bonds was OVERSUBSCRIBED more than 4 times..... Yet, sm people wud want to tell us dat d Economy is broke/has collapsed..

The question one need to ask is which sector of the economy the FDI is financing. is it government borrowing?

Reading the part of the OP (quoted below), i think you should be worried.

“but the manufacturing sector remains disappointing at five per cent business confidence level. This implies that expansion and new investment in the Nigerian manufacturing sector remain largely held down by the lingering challenges confronting business environment in the country."

Joagbaje don turn film director/producer nothing we no go hear i hope there's no application fee/hidden charges attached to this application for pilot sha

Joagbaje: .
Luke 18:12
. . . I give tithes of all that I possess.[/color]

Joagbaje: .
Luke 18:12
I fast twice a week and tithe on all my income. . . .

Please make up your mind you are not showing good character when you post different versions of the same bible verse to suit different objectives.

Joagbaje: .
God demanded animal and crop as offerings and tithes because they were used in the temple for national offerings and sacrifices as well as welfare of priests.

Is that what God told you

Joagbaje: .
How ever it's not every crop or animal that God accept as tithes and offerings. He didnt accept unclean crops and animals because they were not used in the temple. God only took what was usable. You couldn't give tithes of Carmel,dogs ,snakes or pigs etc because they were unclean . Does it mean these unclean farmers were exempted from tithing ? No . They had to give cash equivalent , it is called redemption.

Where is it stated in the bible that farmers of 'unclean crops and animals' should tithe their produce by redemption? what sort of gospel is this? so farmer of unclean crop like indian hemp can tithe by redemption no wonder pastors don't care bout the source of tithe! all they want from the so called tither is his/her tithe whether blood money or otherwise

Joagbaje: .
People had the option of giving tithes and offering by cash or kind. If you give it tithe in cash ,you add 20% extra cash.

Leviticus 27:31
31 And if a man wants to redeem any of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it.

If tithe of cash was value of a tenth of agric produce plus 20% making total tithe value of 12%, how come cash paying tithers today tithe 10%. and you don't think the tither paying 10% is shortchanging God

Joagbaje: .
If you give it tithe in cash ,you add 20% extra cash.

Leviticus 27:31
31 And if a man wants to redeem any of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it.

So cash was given as tithe in bible days. Salary earners fall under this category too

Who placed salary earners under this category? the pastor or God? what exactly is the salary earner redeeming? How come the salary earner is not paying 12%?

Joagbaje: Tithing has always be in cash or kind . People gave money as tithes in the bible days .

Joagbaje you cannot be reaching conclusions based on what you think, you need to provide support. kindly provide some names or instances where people gave cash as tithe.

Joagbaje: Check the scripture. People gave tithes and offering of unclean animals.....

Joagbaje, can you show us the part in scriptures where people gave tithes of unclean animals. be informed that Leviticus 27:27 was not talking about tithe, so show us where people gave tithe of unclean animals please.

Bidam: Explain how God's tithe is not always 10%..i may be missing your point here.

Leviticus 19:9 (NIV)
9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest.

Leviticus 27:30 (NIV)
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

The jews don't gather the harvest 100%, they leave something for the poor. The tithe is paid on what was gathered. It's like saying you set aside some part of your income for charity and apply 10% to the amount remaining.

Leviticus 27:32 (NIV)
32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.

If you have 9 animals eligible for counting/tithing, you don't tithe meaning tithe = zero. if you 19 animals, you only get to tithe one (the 10th one) meaning tithe = 5%.

Bidam: thousands of wars were fought in those days by tribes who want to gain land and spoils, so Abraham's war is no exception. Even after God gave the laws to Moses are wars not being fought in isreal are spoils not being taken [b]so i don't get your analogy of war spoils being nailed to the temple wall o..[/b]pls explain with scriptures abeg. Even before God gave Moses the law on Sinai.

Just letting you know that you cannot categorize all tithe or 10% giving as God's tithe. Abraham gave a tenth of war spoils to Melchizedek and that was the end of such tithe (the tithing of war spoils). After the law was issued, tithing of war spoils was no longer a consideration, meaning you will be on your own if tithe war spoils to the Levi priest. What am saying is that God's tithe is not any 10% as pastor made you believe. God defined his tithe in Leviticus and war spoils was not part of it. Same for anybody that decide to tithe stuff not included in Gods description of his tithe in Leviticus. So you guys contributing 10% of your income to pastor are just paying pastoral tithe.

Bidam: OK sir..i hear sir. Abraham wasn't even an Israelite to start with yet he tithed.

Abrahams tithe was not the tithe commanded by God. God did not say Abrahams type of tithe (war spoils) was sacred to him. In fact Abrahams type of tithe (war spoils) was nailed to the temple's wall when moses gave the law. You will observe that God did not command the Israelite to tithe war spoils (and they did not). So if you like tithe all ya income, as long as it is not the tithe described in Leviticus, you are only tithing pastoral tithe.

Bidam: see ya life..where you not the one that quoted tithe as 10% just now.

That must have been the time i was referring to the pastoral tithe. God's tithe is different and it is not always 10%.

Bidam: so don't even compare them cos tithes actually predates the Law.

Even if tithe (giving of tenths) predates Adam & Eve, it will not change anything. The only tithe commanded by God was the one given to (and strictly for) the Israelite through Moses.

Bidam: ofcos i will be tithing God's tithe and what sort of motive are you talking about.

There no way you will ever understand what you are paying/tithing, when you cannot even describe/define God's tithe. abi you think any 10% is God's tithe.

Bidam: The queshion you should ask yourself zikky is why does the superiority of the Melchizedekian priesthood imply the abolition of the tithe?

Which one be Melchizedekian priesthood again Anyways the only tithe i know to be abolished is God's tithe. You can continue paying the pastoral tithe to your pastor

Bidam: Being under the administration of a superior priesthood does not automatically mean that one does not need to tithe.

You can tithe if you want. But you will not be tithing God's tithe. It will be a tithe as defined by your pastor or as defined by you (just like Jacob). it will be a personal vow between you and God. Will your tithe be accepted? i don't know. Probably depends on motive.

Bidam: And what are you trying to say here Smh

I can see you no longer have anything to say. continue shaking ya head

Bidam: You still don't get the import of my meaning. I said from day one God intentions was for all Israel to be Priests and by extension the whole world who come to Christ the High Priest.This was clearly spelt out in the scriptures here “You shall be a special treasure to Me above all people... you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. Exodus 19.5-6. Revelation 1.6 also says, “And [God] hath made
us kings and priests unto God and His Father.”

We are saying the same thing. We are now priests and so can only tithe when we receive tithe. You should understand that the Levite only tithe from the tithe they received from the people. They had farmland, they had animals but they were only required to tithe from what they received from the people. Shine your eye when reading the bible reference below.

Numbers 18:25-29 (NIV)
25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. 28 In this way you also will present an offering to the Lord from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites. From these tithes you must give the Lord’s portion to Aaron the priest. 29 You must present as the Lord’s portion the best and holiest part of everything given to you.’

The Levites were not required to tithe from what they produced. If there is no tithe from the people, the priestly tribe will not tithe. They tithed only from the tithe they received. It's a two legged transaction. Now we are all priests, it therefore mean tithe cannot be received anymore. Unless you want to go collect nuts from monkeys and render a tenth to your pastor. That's as close as you can get

Bidam: You still don't get the import of my meaning. I said from day one God intentions was for all Israel to be Priests and by extension the whole world who come to Christ the High Priest.This was clearly spelt out in the scriptures here “You shall be a special treasure to Me above all people... you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”. Exodus 19.5-6. Revelation 1.6 also says, “And [God] hath made
us kings and priests unto God and His Father.”

Anyways, we being priest is still no justification for us paying God's tithe. God's tithe was meant for the Levites as their inheritance and God did not write a new will taking that portion of their inheritance away from them and giving it to your pastor, and he did not write a new will that says we Christians should give 10% of our income to the pastor. My brother what you are paying is pastoral tithe. An invention of man.

Bidam: On the contrary i am speaking for all tithers who knows the truth about the infallibility of God's word.

Sorry to say this, but knowing the truth about the 'infallibility' of God's word does not equate to motivation for giving 10% of your income to the pastor. and even the 'infallibility' of God's word does not equate to Christian tithing. Like i said earlier, i know lots of tithers 10% givers and justification is never because grace empowers them to give. Sorry you cannot speak for them, they already told me why they tithe give 10%.

Bidam: Human interpretation.

Am human. I don't pretend to be something am not.

Bidam: There is nothing like pastor's tithe.It is God's tithe, the onus is on you to give me scriptural proof.

Scriptural proof of pastoral tithe You don't find proof of pastoral tithe in the scriptures, instead you find it in Churches. It's end of month already, so visit the nearest Pentecostal church next Sunday for proof

You find God's tithe in the bible. Read from Moses.

Bidam: There is nothing like pastor's tithe.

Oh yes there is. Pastoral tithe is 10% of people's income. God's tithe is tithe of the land (produce of the land in Israel) and the tenth animal as counted by the herdsman.

Bidam: Yes the levite's tithe went to the High priest.From this analogy levites are priest of Old. We are the Priests of the New. Jesus is NOW our High Priest. We as Priests offer Our tithes and offerings to JESUS NA.Simple bible sense.

...and who do we collect our 10% from, now that we are all levites? as Levites we are also entitled to receive tithe or 10% (we now have the authority and responsibility to collect tithe. abi, no be so you talk am?) You cannot just look at one leg of the transaction and ignore the other leg.

..and this is still not telling us that God's tithe was instituted for Christians. Unless you are referring to the pastoral tithe.