@everyone

I'm sorry if I derailed the thread. I haven't read the whole of it. I only wanted to address Frosbel's comment. When I have a bit more time, I'll go through the whole thread and comment where I find need to.

@frosbel .Is judah nt in present day isreal? Is judah not isreal's son. " And she conceive again and bare a son: and she said,now i praise d lord: therèore she named him judah." Gen 29:35.
DOnt TEL me u also dnt know jacob begat judah. And jacob is Isreal "...thy name shal be called no more Jacob but isreal" Gen 32:28.
Abt muslim,palestine issue and the christians. I'm afraid 2 tell you it can never end. "for it is written that Abraham had two sons, the 1 by a bondwoman ws born afta d flesh:bt of d freewoman ws by promise... One frm Mt sinai wich gendereth to bondage which is Agar. For dis Agar is in Mt sinai in Arabia n answerth to Jerusalem which nw is and is in bondage with her children(islam). BT as then he dat ws born afta the flesh percecutd him dat ws born afta d spirit,even so it is now...castout the bondwoman and her son:for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."(Gal 4:22-30) "for the flesh lusteth against the spirit and d spirit against d flesh and they are contrary 2 1 anoda. So the continuous fightin and d unrest wil always be there. Dont also 4get we should nt be unequally yoked wit unbelievers. By their fruit u shall know them" d works of the flesh are adultery...idolatry witchcraft,hatred,wrath,envy,murder...but fruit of d spirit is love,joy,peace,longsuffering,gentleness..."(GAL 5:17-22). Again please read beyond the letters. The only salvation is true Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d946a-4GUs&feature=b-vrec

Ihedinobi:

Frosbel, I imagine that you're following a lot of threads, but if you could check in on Oladeegbu's thread on this same issue, you'll find a comment awaiting response from you. However, because there are other people involved here, I'll say here that your explanation concerning Political Israel does not take right account of Romans 11:25-29.

The immediate context of Romans 11:26 is verse 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in," then "all Israel will be saved." Or, to be exact, "And so all Israel will be saved." In other words, the coming in of the fullness or total number of the Gentiles results in "all Israel" being saved. Paul's idea seems to be that when all Gentiles (totally, throughout history) have come in, that is, have been grafted into the Vine, they, uniting with all Jews who have become believers, will form the total number of the saved. That is all ISRAEL which constitutes Jews and Gentiles will be saved. - Source

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day

“For in Christ Jesus [Yahushua] neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Galatians 6:15,16.

An Israelite in God’s sense of the term is one who accepts His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ and who follows God fully. A true Israelite may have been born of Jewish parents, or he may have had Gentile parents. It is not his natural or first birth that makes him an Israelite. It is the new or second birth. Israelites are twice-born men and women, who have accepted the grace of God, and who recognize Christ Jesus as their Redeemer from sin and death. To simplify it, Apostle Paul is saying that being a literal Jew is not a passport into the family of God. God’s family consists of the children of promise. The true Israel of God are true Christians - Source

I totally agree that the Israel of God is the Church, but the Church comprising believing Gentiles and believing Jews.

Correct.

God is not dealing with the present day Jews any different than he is with the Gentiles.

And we receive from Paul's letter to the Romans, that the Jews are currently hardened so that the full number of Gentiles will come in.

The Jews at that time were hardened hence the gospel going to the gentiles , but ever since we have seen a massive revival among the Jews and there are tens of thousands of these wondeerful people who are saved today and many more will be saved .

However there is no automatic saving of an entire nation who reject Christ , it is just not in the bible.

Please read some beautiful testimonies and articles by our saved Jewish brethren - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

When that has happened, they will get another opportunity to embrace their Messiah.

Wrong, they have no special opportunity to embrace the Messiah than say the Gentiles, you or me. This is not mentioned in scripture. Always look at Paul's statements from a new covenant perspective.

Question for you : What about the Jews today who are being saved in their thousands, does this not count

They will always be "special" to God.

Sorry Sir, the only people special to God are those who obey his covenant through Christ Jesus, any other is an unbeliever.

Exodus 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,"

Mark the underlined word IF YOU OBEY ME , not if you disobey me !

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." - 1 Peter 2:9

Peter was referring here to the saved church not the unbelieving Jews !

God has a right to pick favorites if He wants, but favorites or not,

God's favorites throughout history have been those who obey his covenant.

"Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word." - Isaiah 66:2

He picked the Jews to be the nation through which the Messiah will come.

Correct .

His casting off of them is for a while, not forever.

How can he

Throughout the ages, Hundreds of thousands of Jews have been saved and many many more will be saved. God never forgot them and neither will he forget us.

He will still return specifically for them to bring them home to Himself again.

Jesus Christ is returning , not for the ethnic nation of Israel but for his church , the body of Christ , the true Israel of GOD made up firstly of Jews and then Gentiles.

Believe me when I say that we are in the presence of a huge mystery that stretches back all the way through Abraham to Noah to Seth to Abel to the Garden. It is BIG and we are strongly warned not to make light of it.

Warned !!!

This is no mystery , it is only a mystery to the unsaved.

God is in Christ reconciling the world to himself , Christ came from the seed of Isaac through Abraham which is the promise by faith to both Jew and Gentile. Without faith , no ethnic Jew or Gentile can please God or be counted as one of his.

God's intention was always to save the whole world through the Israel of God which is in Christ Jesus.

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other." - Isaiah 45:22

Suffice to say, that the political entity called Israel is not done for; on the basis of their ancestry alone, if it takes destroying all the nations of the earth to save them, God will not be averse to doing so.

The political entity called Israel today has nothing to do with the God of the Bible.

The real Israel, the chosen ones who are Jew or Gentile, are alive and well today and being built up into a spiritual house for indwelling by God.

"you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 2:5

Sweetnecta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d946a-4GUs&feature=b-vrec

This is one thing we can at least agree on , violence against the Palestinians is wrong !

First, I agree that the immediate context of v26 was v25. I wonder that you didn't notice that my emphasis was that the true Israel would not be complete without the number of political Israel that shall be saved too.

Next, you say that Jews have been meeting with their Savior for centuries now, and I completely agree, but would you say that they are not just a trickle? Consider your inference that Paul spoke of his own contemporary days when he said Israel was being hardened. Does that inference allow for those Jews who were being saved then too? I don't think it does. Saved Jews are in the minority and judging by their heritage, that is curious. The Jewish nation, as a whole entity, is essentially still apostate. That means the condition of hardening that Paul spoke of still holds today. And if that holds, every other thing he said that hinges upon it holds today as well.

Also, you neglected the statement that Israel (remember that Paul was separating between Gentiles, the Romans specifically in this letter, and Jews while he spoke) is loved on account of their forefathers.

Again, while indeed belonging to the Family of God entitles us to His mysteries, we grow into them. When we make certain assumptions about them, it is clear that we have not been brought into them as yet. What is more, the letter to the Romans where Paul named it a mystery was written to believers, Christians, children of the Lord. Why would he call it so if it were not one for them too?

About their prophecied salvation and God's specific return for them, I did not speak of how He will, I only said that He will. I'm not sure yet how He will. But I know that He will and it will be clear because political Israel will finally and ostentatiously embrace the Lord Jesus as their Christ as well. And this will happen after the Gentiles have been fully gathered in. The place of the rapture and the Judgment of the world in this is not yet known to me. I will speak it when I have learned it.

I hope you can pardon the lack of Scriptural quotes here. I want to keep my writing unambiguous. I have not yet opened the full mystery about this here. Like I told you, it goes all the way back to the Garden. When you understand it, it will humble you and make you pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. You will get some idea why the Lord yet delays in coming. You will be enlarged so that you can channel more of God's Love for His Whole Family. And your day-to-day living will begin to raise a beacon that will draw the coming of the Lord closer.

Ihedinobi: First, I agree that the immediate context of v26 was v25. I wonder that you didn't notice that my emphasis was that the true Israel would not be complete without the number of political Israel that shall be saved too.

Nowhere is 'political' Israel used in the bible, it is either Israel as an ethnic nation as described in the old testament or the Israel of GOD as described in the New testament.

The early church was started by , and led by Jews. Gentiles were a later addition as prophesied in scripture.

God is saving both Jew and Gentile today , with him there is no respect of persons .

To suggest that Jewish murderers, adulterers, liars, thieves and sinners , have some kind of special automatic salvation in contrast to that of Gentile murderers , liars, thieves and sinners is False and cannot be backed up by scripture.

Next, you say that Jews have been meeting with their Savior for centuries now, and I completely agree, but would you say that they are not just a trickle? Consider your inference that Paul spoke of his own contemporary days when he said Israel was being hardened. Does that inference allow for those Jews who were being saved then too? I don't think it does. Saved Jews are in the minority and judging by their heritage, that is curious. The Jewish nation, as a whole entity, is essentially still apostate. That means the condition of hardening that Paul spoke of still holds today. And if that holds, every other thing he said that hinges upon it holds today as well.

Wow !!

About the bolded, you are insistent on attributing their salvation to ethnicity.

Generally , the saved are in the minority. The bible also says only a remnant will be saved.

"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:14

"For many are invited, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:14

In Gentile and Jewish groups , those that accept Jesus Christ have always been in the minority.

Also, you neglected the statement that Israel (remember that Paul was separating between Gentiles, the Romans specifically in this letter, and Jews while he spoke) is loved on account of their forefathers.

And how does this negate his point that not all ISRAEL IS ISRAEL ?

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." - Romans 9:6

Again, while indeed belonging to the Family of God entitles us to His mysteries, we grow into them. When we make certain assumptions about them, it is clear that we have not been brought into them as yet. What is more, the letter to the Romans where Paul named it a mystery was written to believers, Christians, children of the Lord. Why would he call it so if it were not one for them too?

You cannot make assumptions about the things of God, they are either fact or fiction.

About their prophecied salvation and God's specific return for them, I did not speak of how He will, I only said that He will. I'm not sure yet how He will. But I know that He will and it will be clear because political Israel will finally and ostentatiously embrace the Lord Jesus as their Christ as well. And this will happen after the Gentiles have been fully gathered in. The place of the rapture and the Judgment of the world in this is not yet known to me. I will speak it when I have learned it.

Political Israel is your own interpretation of scripture, no such thing exists.

It is either the Israel of GOD with Jew and Gentile or Apostate Israel made up of unbelieving Jews. God does not see 2 Israels he sees ONE.

The rapture also is a false doctrine and never mentioned in the Bible. Jesus's second coming is not a secret hidden affair, it will be a final event in which the whole world will be aware of it's finality.

I hope you can pardon the lack of Scriptural quotes here.

And this is precisely the point, I cannot accept any notion that is not based on scripture.

My God! What is this? A discussion or a war? Is this how you communicate with fellow believers? Am I not allowed to express a different understanding than you? Frosbel, your whole comment stinks of conflict. That is terrible. If I continue to sense animosity from you, you will carry on by yourself.

frosbel:

Nowhere is 'political' Israel used in the bible, it is either Israel as an ethnic nation as described in the old testament or the Israel of GOD as described in the New testament.

Is there a need to fight over semantics? "Political Israel" is my term for your "ethnic Israel", which by the way is also not written in the Bible and, per your logic, should be called your own interpretation.

The early church was started by , and led by Jews. Gentiles were a later addition as prophesied in scripture.

God is saving both Jew and Gentile today , with him there is no respect of persons .

To suggest that Jewish murderers, adulterers, liars, thieves and sinners , have some kind of special automatic salvation in contrast to that of Gentile murderers , liars, thieves and sinners is False and cannot be backed up by scripture.

I wonder that you read my comments to suggest any sort of automatic salvation for ethnic Israel. I believe that I said the Gospel will return to them and they will have another opportunity to embrace their Messiah.

Wow !!

About the bolded, you are insistent on attributing their salvation to ethnicity.

Generally , the saved are in the minority. The bible also says only a remnant will be saved.

"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Matthew 7:14

"For many are invited, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:14

In Gentile and Jewish groups , those that accept Jesus Christ have always been in the minority.

Could you reconcile this concept of the few that are finally saved with Revelation 7:9?

And how does this negate his point that not all ISRAEL IS ISRAEL ?

"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." - Romans 9:6

This is worrisome. If you ask me this, it means that you gave no merit to the passage at all? The context says that because of their biological heritage, they are loved of God. Because this discussion is already begin to threaten blood, I will not go on to strengthen the position of the passage with other passages. I will only do so when I see evidence of congeniality.

You cannot make assumptions about the things of God, they are either fact or fiction.

Hmmmm... There's evidence to the contrary in this conversation and elsewhere. Scriptures are interpreted and when a man will not humble himself before God and acknowledge his poverty, he will make assumptions about the meanings of Scriptures and back them up with quotes. It's one reason I no longer make a point of saying "it is written", I only do so as of necessity. Those who believe anything I say must be those who have confirmed what I have said against the Bible.

Political Israel is your own interpretation of scripture, no such thing exists.

It is either the Israel of GOD with Jew and Gentile or Apostate Israel made up of unbelieving Jews. God does not see 2 Israels he sees ONE.

Like I said, by the same reasoning, there is no such thing as "ethnic Israel". That is purely your interpretation.

The rapture also is a false doctrine and never mentioned in the Bible. Jesus's second coming is not a secret hidden affair, it will be a final event in which the whole world will be aware of it's finality.

Considering the current state of things, I won't bother with this.

And this is precisely the point, I cannot accept any notion that is not based on scripture.

Well, I do not accept any notion that is not based on Scripture either. Are you implying that my refusing to line every statement I make with quotes makes my submissions unscriptural? I think that thinking is why people fall so easily into error when they are told the Bible says such and such. The Bible says, then we understand by what is said such and such. It is such and such that we tell others. When we hear their own such and such, it should improve our own such and such and build us more powerfully in Christ. Unless all the such and such is not understanding gained under the Hand of the Spirit of the Lord.

In fact, one sign of those wicked shepherds that try to draw the sheep after themselves is that desire to convince those who hear them that their interpretation is the true one and the only acceptable one. Their only way of proving that is claiming biblical authority. The true shepherds give you a chance to reject their interpretation and learn things for yourself.

Ihedinobi: My God! What is this? A discussion or a war? Is this how you communicate with fellow believers? Am I not allowed to express a different understanding than you? Frosbel, your whole comment stinks of conflict. That is terrible. If I continue to sense animosity from you, you will carry on by yourself.

If you see this as a war, then it is rather unfortunate as I believe our discussion has been civil.

Your view is valid in your opinion and I respect that.

Is there a need to fight over semantics? "Political Israel" is my term for your "ethnic Israel", which by the way is also not written in the Bible and, per your logic, should be called your own interpretation.

Okay

I wonder that you read my comments to suggest any sort of automatic salvation for ethnic Israel. I believe that I said the Gospel will return to them and they will have another opportunity to embrace their Messiah.

The gospel has always be there for them to take hold of , and they are doing so in their thousands today.

Could you reconcile this concept of the few that are finally saved with Revelation 7:9?

This is the scripture below, and it talks of the saved from every nation not just Israel. But I really do not understand your point here.

" After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.” - R[b]evelation 7 - 9[/b]

This is worrisome. If you ask me this, it means that you gave no merit to the passage at all? The context says that because of their biological heritage, they are loved of God. Because this discussion is already begin to threaten blood, I will not go on to strengthen the position of the passage with other passages. I will only do so when I see evidence of congeniality.

They are beloved for the sake of the Fathers, God has not cast them away forever, which again is why there are thousands of Jews on your side and my side today contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Paul preached the gospel to the Jews and so did Peter and the rest of the apostles, in fact on one day when Peter preached 3000 were saved. Today we are told by John Hagee and his cohorts that there is no need to evangelise the Jews because they are chosen of God anyway and will be automatically saved.

Hmmmm... There's evidence to the contrary in this conversation and elsewhere. Scriptures are interpreted and when a man will not humble himself before God and acknowledge his poverty, he will make assumptions about the meanings of Scriptures and back them up with quotes. It's one reason I no longer make a point of saying "it is written", I only do so as of necessity. Those who believe anything I say must be those who have confirmed what I have said against the Bible.

Please quote scripture and we can discuss, you seem to write without using biblical verses to buttress your point.

I am always ready to admit my error and correct myself if you can use scripture to show me the error of my ways not human reasoning.

Like I said, by the same reasoning, there is no such thing as "ethnic Israel". That is purely your interpretation.

if you say so

Well, I do not accept any notion that is not based on Scripture either. Are you implying that my refusing to line every statement I make with quotes makes my submissions unscriptural? [b]

I think that thinking is why people fall so easily into error when they are told the Bible says such and such.

[/b]The Bible says, then we understand by what is said such and such. It is such and such that we tell others. When we hear their own such and such, it should improve our own such and such and build us more powerfully in Christ. Unless all the such and such is not understanding gained under the Hand of the Spirit of the Lord.

People fall into error when scripture is hidden and not used to validate the doctrine of the bible. The error in the church today is primarily because people do not read their bibles and thus get deceived and misled by false teachers and preachers. Besides it is the Holy Spirit that gives wisdom and insight into the deep things of God. Hence the important of Sola scriptura.

In fact, one sign of those wicked shepherds that try to draw the sheep after themselves is that desire to convince those who hear them that their interpretation is the true one and the only acceptable one. Their only way of proving that is claiming biblical authority. The true shepherds give you a chance to reject their interpretation and learn things for yourself.

1. I am not drawing a following to myself, God forbid it be so. No such desire resides in me .

2. I do not have a church or even a fellowship, other than that of my family. I also do not intend to start a church.

3. My interpretations are not infallible, I never said they were. However I use scripture after scripture to buttress my points which is why the Berean Christians were called noble because they always referred to scripture.

4. I do not claim biblical authority but I use the bible to make my points. My points are open for rebuke, correction or rejection.


Thanks for contributing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSwJ3It6Zkk&feature=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtoidZJishI&feature=relmfu

frosbel:
If you see this as a war, then it is rather unfortunate as I believe our discussion has been civil.

Your view is valid in your opinion and I respect that.

Hmmmm.... ok na. It might be that you have become so used to being confrontational that you don't know when you're being so anymore. Anyway, no matter. This will be my last comment on the matter anyway.

The gospel has always be there for them to take hold of , and they are doing so in their thousands today.

Why does the Bible say that they are hardened to it then?

This is the scripture below, and it talks of the saved from every nation not just Israel. But I really do not understand your point here.

" After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.” - R[b]evelation 7 - 9[/b]

I agree that you didn't understand me. You interpreted all the Scriptures that you quoted about the few that are saved to mean that all those who are saved and get into heaven are in the minority and quite few in number. And I gave you the passage to ask how it agrees with that interpretation given the fact that what we find in heaven are numberless multitudes.

They are beloved for the sake of the Fathers, God has not cast them away forever, which again is why there are thousands of Jews on your side and my side today contending for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Paul preached the gospel to the Jews and so did Peter and the rest of the apostles, in fact on one day when Peter preached 3000 were saved. Today we are told by John Hagee and his cohorts that there is no need to evangelise the Jews because they are chosen of God anyway and will be automatically saved.

I honestly do not know what John Hagee preaches. But I test everything I receive against Scriptures that I have. If I'd heard it, I would have tested it the same way I'm testing your position now. I know that there is no such thing as automatic salvation for the Israeli nation. I know this because God's salvation depends on a man's choice. But I know that there is nothing in such a teaching that justifies throwing out the fact that the Israeli nation is special because of their ancestry. That cannot be done on the strength of the Scriptures.

When I speak of that portion of Paul's letter to the Romans, I speak from an understanding of the whole letter as the context. You do know that his discourse on Israel's destiny began at chapter nine, don't you?

Please quote scripture and we can discuss, you seem to write without using biblical verses to buttress your point.

I am always ready to admit my error and correct myself if you can use scripture to show me the error of my ways not human reasoning.

Please cease from quoting the Scriptures so profusely. It makes understanding your position more difficult. I'd rather hear what you think and what you think the Bible means and be referred to them for confirmation than have them so much in my face that I get the impression that you are infallible in your interpretation.

People fall into error when scripture is hidden and not used to validate the doctrine of the bible. The error in the church today is primarily because people do not read their bibles and thus get deceived and misled by false teachers and preachers. Besides it is the Holy Spirit that gives wisdom and insight into the deep things of God. Hence the important of Sola scriptura.

The bolded disagrees with the underlined in red. How? Because if I come and present an argument and riddle it with Scriptures, unless my audience has experience in the Lord and lacks itching ears, it will associate the presence of Scriptures as evidence of validity of the argument (your words, actually). That results in its adopting the untested arguments as infallible. If it is grounded in the Lord, it won't be able to discuss with me without running the risk of a war of interpretations, which will automatically degenerate into a war of quotes. Before we know it, one or both of us will start with questioning and end with rejecting the version of the Bible the other uses.

The precedent of the Bereans teaches the hearers to search the Scriptures to see if the things they're taught are so. The precedent of the vessels of the Scriptures teaches the teachers to avoid overwhelming their hearers and suffocating them with Scriptures. They may reference and even quote or allude to them, but they must always give allowance for disagreement.

Edited.

frosbel: 1. I am not drawing a following to myself, God forbid it be so. No such desire resides in me .

How are we to know that except by your actions?

2. I do not have a church or even a fellowship, other than that of my family. I also do not intend to start a church.

I don't know any of this to be true. I can only accept it on face value. And I actually do.

3. My interpretations are not infallible, I never said they were. However I use scripture after scripture to buttress my points which is why the Berean Christians were called noble because they always referred to scripture.

Why do you buttress your points? You realize that what you said is amounts to this: you use the Scriptures to confer infallibility on your interpretations. Because once you appeal to the authority of the Scriptures for your interpretations, it is assumed that you are submitting them as infallible. To fault them will amount to faulting the Scriptures in your eyes.

4. I do not claim biblical authority but I use the bible to make my points. My points are open for rebuke, correction or rejection.

You do realize that there's no difference between the purple and the green parts of your statement, right? Using the Bible to make your points is the same as claiming Biblical authority. And that renders your points impossible to rebuke or correct. The only options available are acceptance and rejection.

You see the problem we have? I assumed that your arguments could be questioned, but our discussion has proved otherwise so far. Instead of them being under examination, my own questions came under examination as to whether they should be asked. That is what happens when you question an authority. And you are saying that you are not claiming to be one. Your actions belie that claim. Allow me to urge you to quit this fight with tradition and simply study the Scriptures and prove them for yourself. Your current disposition makes it impossible to discuss with you.

Ihedinobi:

How are we to know that except by your actions?

I am not answerable to you.

3. My interpretations are not infallible, I never said they were. However I use scripture after scripture to buttress my points which is why the Berean Christians were called noble because they always referred to scripture.

Why do you buttress your points? You realize that what you said is amounts to this: you use the Scriptures to confer infallibility on your interpretations. Because once you appeal to the authority of the Scriptures for your interpretations, it is assumed that you are submitting them as infallible. To fault them will amount to faulting the Scriptures in your eyes.

As someone earlier commented in another article, you tend to make a number of comments and statements on various topics without using scripture, I have to say for a new Christian to read your articles without any quoted scripture is dangerous.

Also, you seem to have a problem with people quoting bible verses, just like the Catholics tell us not to read the bible because we cannot understand it.

4. I do not claim biblical authority but I use the bible to make my points. My points are open for rebuke, correction or rejection.


You do realize that there's no difference between the purple and the green parts of your statement, right? Using the Bible to make your points is the same as claiming Biblical authority. And that renders your points impossible to rebuke or correct. The only options available are acceptance and rejection.

So what should I use to make my point , the Quran

Wow.

You see the problem we have? I assumed that your arguments could be questioned, but our discussion has proved otherwise so far. Instead of them being under examination, my own questions came under examination as to whether they should be asked. That is what happens when you question an authority. And you are saying that you are not claiming to be one. Your actions belie that claim. Allow me to urge you to quit this fight with tradition and simply study the Scriptures and prove them for yourself. Your current disposition makes it impossible to discuss with you.

On the contrary , you are the one holding unto tradition without scripture backing.

I have discarded many heretical views I once held as a member of the institutionalised church system.

Now I reply with my bible , if you hate this then there is something terribly wrong.

.

.

Ihedinobi:

Hmmmm.... ok na. It might be that you have become so used to being confrontational that you don't know when you're being so anymore. Anyway, no matter. This will be my last comment on the matter anyway.

Mate , honestly I do not know what you are on about here.

Why does the Bible say that they are hardened to it then?

Till when.

Were 3000 Jews not saved on the day of Pentecost ? Was Stephen not a Jew ?

The hardening of the Jews resulted in their rejection and subsequent crucifixion of the Messiah which was the fulfilment of the salvation that God wanted to extend to the ends of the earth.

In any case , the first church consisted almost entirely of Jews.

I agree that you didn't understand me. You interpreted all the Scriptures that you quoted about the few that are saved to mean that all those who are saved and get into heaven are in the minority and quite few in number. And I gave you the passage to ask how it agrees with that interpretation given the fact that what we find in heaven are numberless multitudes.

Hmm.

So 200 million saved is not few compared to 6 billion right

You need to slow down !

I honestly do not know what John Hagee preaches. But I test everything I receive against Scriptures that I have. If I'd heard it, I would have tested it the same way I'm testing your position now. I know that there is no such thing as automatic salvation for the Israeli nation. I know this because God's salvation depends on a man's choice. But I know that there is nothing in such a teaching that justifies throwing out the fact that the Israeli nation is special because of their ancestry. That cannot be done on the strength of the Scriptures.

What scriptures ? You have quoted only 1 or 2 scripture , bring them here for scrutiny

When I speak of that portion of Paul's letter to the Romans, I speak from an understanding of the whole letter as the context. You do know that his discourse on Israel's destiny began at chapter nine, don't you?

And ?

Does that change the fact that Paul was referring to the privilege of the Jews and why God had not forsaken them altogether because a remnant will be saved. Well Sir, that remnant is the total number of Jews saved from the early church to when Christ comes.

Please cease from quoting the Scriptures so profusely. It makes understanding your position more difficult. I'd rather hear what you think and what you think the Bible means and be referred to them for confirmation than have them so much in my face that I get the impression that you are infallible in your interpretation.

What !!! I should cease from quoting scripture ? Scary stuff.

The bolded disagrees with the underlined in red. How? Because if I come and present an argument and riddle it with Scriptures, unless my audience has experience in the Lord and lacks itching ears, it will associate the presence of Scriptures as evidence of validity of the argument (your words, actually). That results in its adopting the untested arguments as infallible. If it is grounded in the Lord, it won't be able to discuss with me without running the risk of a war of interpretations, which will automatically degenerate into a war of quotes. Before we know it, one or both of us will start with questioning and end with rejecting the version of the Bible the other uses.

Lol.

It is not your Job to help Christians decipher scripture , the Holy Spirit is the teacher. A true Child of God can sift through the chaff and select the wheat.

Not quoting scripture is dangerous, even the Bereans searched the scriptures daily. You tend to use human reasoning.

The precedent of the Bereans teaches the hearers to search the Scriptures to see if the things they're taught are so. The precedent of the vessels of the Scriptures teaches the teachers to avoid overwhelming their hearers and suffocating them with Scriptures. They may reference and even quote or allude to them, but they must always give allowance for disagreement.

Disagreement based on what ? Based on your own understanding without the use of scripture.

No further debate with you unless you use the bible - thanks.

@Frosbel

I'd prepared a response to your first answer which you apparently edited out and replaced with your current comments but I lost it and, because it's too tedious to get about reproducing it, I don't plan to do so.

It's easy to claim to be a Berean. In fact, there's a degree of pride involved in doing so especially when you have poor understanding, or none at all, of what the Berean principle is.

I do not quote Scriptures overmuch because I prefer to leave my comments and arguments open to judgment by the reader. Believe me, if you want a war of quotes, you'll run out of steam while I'm warming up. And that's not idle talk, bro. I read and have read the Bible. It is because my Father in great mercy taught me the meekness of Christ that I write the way I do. I'm not an easy person to defeat in argument even when I'm wrong, particularly argument concerning the Bible. The Lord dealt with that by the Cross of Christ.

The Berean principle teaches that those who are taught should compare what they are taught with the Scriptures. It does not say anything whatever to those who teach.

The principle that applies to the teachers is that which governed the writers of Scripture. You take a look for yourself at how Scripture is written and see for yourself what I mean.

As for our current discussion, my brother, I tire o. It is impossible to correct anything that claims biblical authority or even dare to question it. Here are my submissions. You may do with them whatever pleases you.

Romans 9-11 spoke to Gentile believers, in general, and Roman believers of that time, in particular. Paul said in his writings there that the Jewish nation was still relevant. God had not withdrawn from them that, call it "special", for want of a more suitable word, love He loved them with. They were still His firstfruits from among the nations.

They were hardened because of disobedience to the Gospel then and now still so that Gentile nations are receiving the same Gospel. Throughout the centuries, however, God has maintained a remnant among them for Himself. As long as there is seed, there is hope of a bountiful harvest. This is analogous of the remnant and the expected salvation of the Jewish nation. Jesus said that the end will be precipitated by the completion of the rounds of the Gospel (Matthew 24:14) and Paul said that the hardening of the Jews will persist until the full number of the Gentile children of God (the sheep of other fold that Jesus said He had in John 10:16) have been brought into the Lord's House. When this has been done, "the Deliverer will come from Zion (and) turn Jacob from ungodliness" (Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33,34; Romans 11:26). That is the Lord of the Church will go back for his first fold to gather them, those among them that will repent into the Church. Yes, when Paul said all Israel, he meant the Church. All Israel will be complete when the time of hardening is completed and the Jewish nation gets another chance to embrace their Lord. Many of them will. Resultant upon that will be the end because the Gospel will finish its rounds at the Israeli nation. It will come full circle upon return to Its cradle.

I colored the words, Zion and Jacob, to indicate that they're different entities. Zion is the heavenly Jerusalem, the Church, the mother of us all. Jacob is the nation of the biological descendants of the patriarch by that name. Jesus will reach out again from His Church, His seat of government, to His kinsmen by the flesh to call them one more time. This is after the Gentiles have been gathered in. I believe that this reaching out will be in the same manner that the Gospel has been reaching out: the witnessing of believers. The sign that this has happened is that believing Jews will no longer be a meagre minority. They will be an appreciable number just like believers of other nations are.

As for the matter of how few believers really are, I wouldn't answer for your sake. I answer for the sake of those others who will read what I write. There are few, yes, but not few sheep in the Lord's flock. No. The Lord has an extraordinarily big family. They are indeed a very sizeable number. And I am saying, even against the number of unbelievers, they are very many. I will not say that they are in the majority, because I don't know that. I am sure though that even if they are in the minority they are not few by any means.

I am quite reluctant to explain why Jesus spoke of few finding the strait gate and narrow way. But for the same reason that I have been explaining, I will continue. There is more to salvation than just being numbered among the children of God. There is a great purpose for which we are saved.

......continuing in next post......

.........continuing from last post......

Among those who are true sheep in Jesus's fold, there are only a few that come into the fullness of that purpose. All of us will, but the overwhelming majority will do so in a measure. Only a relative few will come into all the fullness of salvation. This is the reason behind every indication that there are few who are saved.

One final thing. You have made yourself out to be something because you question the truth of doctrines held by "Christian" organizations. You stink of the pride that is characteristic of a man who recognizes no master. You claim submission to the Lordship of the Holy Spirit but give no indication of an ability to recognize Him in another. You think that everyone who asks for a reasonable defence of your positions on the Scriptures is held in the stranglehold of some organization. What foolishness.

I was born and brought up in the Methodist Church, but since I was born into the Lord's House years ago, I have given no loyalty to any "church", "fellowship" or "man of God" (except in this case for a few years after which I broke off when I couldn't shut my eyes to all the contradiction anymore). I still go to church. I will still read literature by other believers. But I have come to know my Guide and Lord. I have come to know His distinguishing qualities and have learned to recognize Him in others. For that reason, I can benefit from fellowship with every believer, no matter the condition. I can embrace a believer regardless of his Catholic, Baptist, Christ Embassy, Anglican background. In embracing Christ in him, I can separate him from that which is not Christ. If the Lord had not taken me through terror to learn this, I would be every bit as conceited as you are and far moreso possibly, because of my temperament and intellect. It was Mercy that saved me. I pray the Lord saves you too.

My words have been harsh, I know. I have "called you names" and "passed judgment upon you". I won't argue that neither is true. I'll just say that they aren't. And tell you that I'm worried for you. I have been since I encountered your thread about the Trinity. I pray that you are caught before you plunge off that cliff.

I know nothing now that I learned from another. I do not speak other men's words. I have learned in and through others because everyone who has Christ in Him is my teacher and to such a one, I am one as well. I know the things of which I speak. Do you know that of which you speak?

[quote author=Ihedinobi]@Frosbel

I'd prepared a response to your first answer which you apparently edited out and replaced with your current comments but I lost it and, because it's too tedious to get about reproducing it, I don't plan to do so.

Hmmm, was not intentional if this is indeed the case.

Please refer me to the section.

It's easy to claim to be a Berean. In fact, there's a degree of pride involved in doing so especially when you have poor understanding, or none at all, of what the Berean principle is.

Appears you have some wrong motives by your statement above.

Berean simply refers to checking the scriptures to validate the bogus claims of false teachers , or checking the scriptures to validate the claims of true teachers. I am really at a loss as to why you think this is pride . This is common sense.

I do not quote Scriptures overmuch because I prefer to leave my comments and arguments open to judgment by the reader. Believe me, if you want a war of quotes, you'll run out of steam while I'm warming up.

Sorry , but I do not engage in talks of arrogance. Your quoting of scriptures may be to show off your knowledge , in my case it is to simply and innocently buttress my comments so as not to create the impression that I am deviating from truth.

I am shocked though my your comment.

And that's not idle talk, bro. I read and have read the Bible. It is because my Father in great mercy taught me the meekness of Christ that I write the way I do. I'm not an easy person to defeat in argument even when I'm wrong, particularly argument concerning the Bible. The Lord dealt with that by the Cross of Christ.

The mere statement above negates any talk you have made about humility. I am not one to judge but your rant comes across as pride.

The Berean principle teaches that those who are taught should compare what they are taught with the Scriptures. It does not say anything whatever to those who teach.

The principle that applies to the teachers is that which governed the writers of Scripture. You take a look for yourself at how Scripture is written and see for yourself what I mean.

In other words ?

As for our current discussion, my brother, I tire o. It is impossible to correct anything that claims biblical authority or even dare to question it. Here are my submissions. You may do with them whatever pleases you.

Your prerogative.

Romans 9-11 spoke to Gentile believers, in general, and Roman believers of that time, in particular. Paul said in his writings there that the Jewish nation was still relevant. God had not withdrawn from them that, call it "special", for want of a more suitable word, love He loved them with. They were still His firstfruits from among the nations.

Indeed they were still his first fruits among nations in so much as they were still grafted into the vine through belief in Christ , otherwise they were cut off.

John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful

Let us not base our understanding on emotionalism, it has to be related to scripture in all earnest.

They were hardened because of disobedience to the Gospel then and now still so that Gentile nations are receiving the same Gospel.

Their hardness led to the rejection of Christ , his subsequent crucifixion and resurrection.

In other words by their rejecting him, the plan of salvation for the entire world was fulfilled by Christ Jesus who tasted death for every man. After the resurrection, the gospel was to be preached to both Jew and Gentile. In the process thousands of Jews and Gentiles were saved from 2000 years ago till today.

The Jewish remnant is that remnant that has believed in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just as an example , the 3000 Jews that were saved on the day of pentecost were saved by the preaching of Peter. This preaching was based on REPENTANCE and to believe in the gospel.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off —for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." - Acts 2:36-39

1. Peter was preaching here to the Jews
2. He asked them to Repent and be baptized
3. They were to be baptized in the name of Jesus
4. For the forgiveness of sins
5. Promise was for their children ( Jews )
6. For all those that are afar off ( Gentile )
7. 3000 Jews were saved.


This is not the end of the matter, the Berean Jews were saved along with many other Jewish sects in the early church and till this day.

They were saved according to the method of salvation that Christ had prescribed without respect of persons, for Gentile or Jew.

To suggest another remnant somewhere that will be saved by some other method is BOGUS .

Throughout the centuries, however, God has maintained a remnant among them for Himself.

Okay , we have thousands of Jews being saved today. In your opinion whose seed are these ?

As long as there is seed, there is hope of a bountiful harvest.

Indeed

This is analogous of the remnant and the expected salvation of the Jewish nation.

You err again here. No Jewish nation will be saved !! Jews will be saved out of the Jewish nation. God does not save according to ethnicity , that is racism and the root of Christian Zionism.

Ihedinobi: .........continuing from last post......

Among those who are true sheep in Jesus's fold, there are only a few that come into the fullness of that purpose. All of us will, but the overwhelming majority will do so in a measure. Only a relative few will come into all the fullness of salvation. This is the reason behind every indication that there are few who are saved.

Based on what scripture ?

One final thing. You have made yourself out to be something because you question the truth of doctrines held by "Christian" organizations.

Doctrines held by Christian organisations are made by men based on their understanding of scripture. Therefore , since man is fallible , he is prone to error. You cannot tell me that all the doctrines are 100% accurate.

You stink of the pride that is characteristic of a man who recognizes no master.

My master is Christ. Otherwise we are all brothers.

You claim submission to the Lordship of the Holy Spirit but give no indication of an ability to recognize Him in another.

If I refute your bogus claims, it does not mean that you lack the Holy Spirit. People grow in measures and revelation is also in measures. Sometimes, it takes a longer period to remove the deception from our hearts because of the stubbornness of our hearts.

You think that everyone who asks for a reasonable defence of your positions on the Scriptures is held in the stranglehold of some organization. What foolishness.

Well, if you cannot defend you claims with scripture they are automatically invalid, and that applies to the Christian organisations as well.

I was born and brought up in the Methodist Church, but since I was born into the Lord's House years ago, I have given no loyalty to any "church", "fellowship" or "man of God" (except in this case for a few years after which I broke off when I couldn't shut my eyes to all the contradiction anymore). I still go to church.

Good for you

I will still read literature by other believers.

and so do I.

But I have come to know my Guide and Lord. I have come to know His distinguishing qualities and have learned to recognize Him in others.

As we all should.

For that reason, I can benefit from fellowship with every believer, no matter the condition. I can embrace a believer regardless of his Catholic, Baptist, Christ Embassy, Anglican background. In embracing Christ in him, I can separate him from that which is not Christ. If the Lord had not taken me through terror to learn this, I would be every bit as conceited as you are and far moreso possibly, because of my temperament and intellect. It was Mercy that saved me. I pray the Lord saves you too.

The Lord says we should not fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. We can only fellowship together if we have been born again into the Kingdom of God by his Spirit.

Today I have brethren in all denominations, we get along quite well and we also are in the process of discarding false doctrine.

You are indeed a presumptuous fellow when you make claims about me when you do not even know me , lol.

My words have been harsh, I know. I have "called you names" and "passed judgment upon you". I won't argue that neither is true. I'll just say that they aren't. And tell you that I'm worried for you.

Call me names, be harsh , it matters not one iota to me.

Besides do not worry about me.


The qualifications for heaven are :

1. Born again
2. Holiness

Period !!

I have been since I encountered your thread about the Trinity. I pray that you are caught before you plunge off that cliff.

Unlike you, I am willing to reexamine scripture to see if those things we preach are true.,

God is ONE not 3. To suggest that God is ONE but yet 3 persons does not make sense. How can God be 1 and then you say he is also 3.

God is Spirit and those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth.

Tell me, since God is a Spirit , is he different to the Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit not God's omnipotent presence ?

Or are you suggesting that God has 2 Spirits.

Can you not see how this doctrine of trinity has made a mockery of our faith. Besides it is another catholic doctrine.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." - 2 Corinthians 3:17

I know nothing now that I learned from another. I do not speak other men's words. I have learned in and through others because everyone who has Christ in Him is my teacher and to such a one, I am one as well. I know the things of which I speak. Do you know that of which you speak?

Any doctrine, statement or commentary MUST be based on the inerrant word of God.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

"but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good" - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.