Scofield and the dispensationalists see the tribulation as a fulfillment of Dan 9:24-27 with a 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week. According to them, Jesus has a bride which is the church and then a separate relationship with the Jews. But the Bible says that Jesus has removed the dividing wall, that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather one new man (Colossians 3:10-11). Jesus’ prayer was not that we would be taken out of world but that we would be kept from evil (Jn 17:15)

frosbel:


In the new covenant, there is no favouritism, it is either in unbelief or belief.

Jews in their unbelief are not any more special than any other gentile in unbelief. God makes no rules for one and another for a different set.

This matter never ceases to baffle me as to why a large proportion of Christians support the physical nation called 'ISRAEL' despite their endless atrocities and unruly behaviour.

frosbel:


In the new covenant, there is no favouritism, it is either in unbelief or belief.

Jews in their unbelief are not any more special than any other gentile in unbelief. God makes no rules for one and another for a different set.

It is one set of rules, except you be born again ( Jew or Gentile - remember Nicodemus ) you shall likewise perish.

More importantly the body of Christ is made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. The body of Christ is not made up of believing Jews, unbelieving Jews and believing Gentiles.

To accept this heretical dual covenant theology is to make a mockery of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

There is but one covenant , this is that which was promised through Abraham by faith and not by ethnicity. Circumcision came as a sign after faith not before faith so that no man can boast that by his works he was saved. We are saved by faith in the promise made to Abraham which is fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Therefore a physical nation called Israel and which still rejects Christ is actually anti Christ as apostle John mentioned.

To go contrary to John's inspired statement is to add to the word of God based on the false interpretations of Men like Hal Lindsey and countless other false prophets.

SNCOQ3: @oiseworld and Goshen360, My fisrt link is regrettably unclear especially towards the end. I am not disputing your position; Salvation is by Jesus Christ ONLY and their is NO favoritism- That is not what i am disputing. Arab christians(Palestinians, Iraqis, Lebanese...) are spiritual jews therefore are God's children- are we clear on that? My point is: God has not abandoned the biological jews. They are still under God's protection and His ultimate plan is to restore them in Christ. I am going to address frosbel's damning accusation against the jews later in the evening.l
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Joagbaje:
This is a diffrent thing now. it is was not the original idea i got from your write up. you were talking about the support for isreal and not about favouritism.

Joagbaje:

That's right . God cannot abandon his chosen nation. They only experience a temporary set back. Paul warned us not to boast against the natural Israel .because they were temporarily broken off olive branch.

Romans 11:17-18
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. . . . 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Why did he use the term "THEIR OWN". Why are the names on the gates of the new city from Israel ? Etc and etc. they are chosen by Gods election.

Joagbaje: you dont get the point, read, my post again, God deals with people individually, God would judge us individually but geographically, God's headquaters on earth is isreal, and it would be for ever. there is a spritual structure and a physical structure of God's kingdom, we should understand the balance. just like in the church today, we all have equal salvation, yet there is administrative structure in the local church.

Joagbaje: you dont get the point, read, my post again, God deals with people individually, God would judge us individually but geographically, God's headquaters on earth is isreal, and it would be for ever. there is a spritual structure and a physical structure of God's kingdom, we should understand the balance. just like in the church today, we all have equal salvation, yet there is administrative structure in the local church.

oiseworld: please, lets take a careful look at the whole of Rom 11. It spoke specifically on this argument.
God help us.

oiseworld:

please, lets take a careful look at the whole of Rom 11. It spoke specifically on this argument.
God help us.

11:26 Israel shall be saved. The complete restoration of Israel will climax the purging trials of “the day of Jacob’s trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). Paul refers here to Isaiah 59:20. This will take place when Christ returns to earth to establish His millennial kingdom centered in Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:8-10; 13:1; 14:9), following the great tribulation period (Matthew 24:29-31). The surviving and resurrected Jews will all acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Messiah and Savior in that day.

OLAADEGBU:

This verse sums it up.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:26).

ijawkid:

U still don't get it too....

That covenant God had with d isrealites as a nation is gone ......no longer exists.....

God has no head quaters oooooo here on earth........

Gods kingdom is now situated in heaven...

That's where Yahwehs king designate resides.....HEAVEN......



Now I see why many strive to go to the pilgrimage........

God does not have any head quaters as we speak here on earth(not with any nation)............

Joagbaje:

youre still missing something, heaven is not our final destination, earth is our final abode. God himself would come to the earth to establish a new jerusalem which would be hos headquaters. try read the book of revelations

OLAADEGBU: Kingdom Of Priests

"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 19:6).

These were the words of God to Israel, even before they received the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. As a priest serves as an intermediary between God and men, so this "kingdom of priests" had been called by God to bring God’s word to man. As a holy nation with such a high calling, its people also should have been holy (that is, consecrated to God) in life and witness. But instead, after almost 2000 years, God had to lament: "All day long have I stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (Romans 10:21).

There will still come a day when "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), but God has, in the meantime, chosen a new people, in whom "there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 ). We are now "one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Romans 12:5).

We now have been given the same high privileges long ago given to Israel. We who belong to Christ have been "born again" into the "kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and this is nothing less than a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. The apostle Peter said: "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5).

frosbel:

Now we agree, Lord Jesus Christ himself will dwell with us in the new Jerusalem not the physical Jerusalem.

belabela:

While many do quote those verses you cited to support the prophesies concerning Israel return in 1948, the fact remains those prophesies may not be appropriate because most of the lands have not been reclaimed by Israel. And East Jerusalem will likely go to the Arabs in the near future (the reason Tel-Aviv and not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel). The Zionist movement (not Judaism now) has been doing all it can to restore the whole land of ancient Israel, some parts which is today under the control of some Arab states notably Syria..

Joagbaje:

The 1948 incidence is a clear fulfillment of prophecy for Gods people isreal.

When israel was declared a nation in 1948. It took the world by surprise . Because the name of Israel had been wiped off the map of the world according to prophecy of the bible.They had changed the name of the land to Palestine .for about 2000 years,Israel had ceased to be a nation
 
Psalms 83:4
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from [being] a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Even theologians had given up on israel , but when it happened ,historians couldnt believe their ears.

Israel had been scattered all over the earth. Not only that, they were been slaughtered in many nation. Hitler killed millions of them .The name of their land had been changed to Palestine by the ottoman empire,and they brought Arabs to occupy that land. They had no more homeland .there was no way Israel could exist again. But in 1948 , the prophecy came to pass. It was never done in history that a nation who's name had been wiped off resurrects again.

The bible had predicted that God would scatter them if they remain stubborn . They did and he did. By AD 70 . The Romans invaded and destroyed Israel. After that several nations came and did their own destruction. Until the name was removed from world map. After much suffering by many of them in several nations even though some prospered earlier. They began to return to their homeland who's name had been changed to Palestine land .

frosbel:

Have you considered that the present day Israel is a great deception sent by Satan to derail the church , the true Israel

Why do you not accept what Scripture says about who the true Israel is.?

“For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one n Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” - Galatians 3:26-29

I accept what the bible says . That's in Christ but not in God. In God they are still beloved and he loves them. The kingdom of Christ is trmpora. There will be a unity whereby Christ will deliver his kingdom to the father. Christ is the head of the church .

[quote]Theologians ? Who are they ?

Peter , Paul , John , Thomas etc , were not Theologians, why do we need them, what happened to the Holy Spirit ?

Friend, before the Jews moved into that land gradually until 1948, Palestinian Arabs lived there and had been for centuries. To suddenly kick them out because God said so does not line up with the bible.

Israel the physical received a deadly wound in 70ad when the temple was destroyed, today the wound is healed and they are warmongering all over the middle east. Are we saying that God supports this rascal behavior of the so called chosen. Are they better that the Palestinians ? Are we not all human ?

oiseworld: after much consultation,as we must agree this topic is a sensitive one i came up with this findings.

God is God, he can do and undo, he never lies and what ever he says, that he would do. As we stand today, the only way to God is thru Jesus christ, and their exist no other way.
But if we must remember, while on the cross, Jesus died in the mist of two thieves, one accused him of not being able to save himself, the other rebuked him and asked christ to remember him in paradise. Jesus replyed today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:39-43. If at such a last hour, one could be saved. Then anything is possible with God.

Somewhere in revelation we where told that in the last days there shall be great revival and withnesses and testimonies even in this present isreal. Many shall turn to the Lord and they ( the present isreal/jew) shall finally come to accepting christ as the messiah. This nd time revival would also continue allover the nations of the earth.

I was made to understand clearly that the jews are Gods people, his own chosen people.John 1:11: 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.John 1:12: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

This i believe is Gods plan for the jews and the church.

The land of isreal is a blessed land, the people are blessed people. that they now have a owners corner in heaven automatically without christ is not true. But according to the bible we can't phantom the ways and misteries of God.Thats why he is God. If he has told us that their would be lots of surprises in heaven, then we should be prepared and work out our own salvation with as much fear and trembling. Phi 2:12.

beylinko: U said it all. The reason we hv so much arguement of the word is dat many of us don't read beyond d letters. Sincerely we nid 2 ask ursevs wen ws d last tym u askd d Holyspirit 2 show u mysteries in d word.
"We are all saved by Grace tru faith... Not by works any should boast(Eph 2:8-9). " that d gentiles should be made fellowheir, and of d same body and partaker of his promise in christ by the gospel."( Eph 3:6) "knowing dat a man is not justified by d works of d law but by d faith of Jesus christ... For if righteousnes come by d law,then christ is dead in vain"(GAl 2:16-21)
Christ hath redeemed us from d curse of the law... Dat d blessings of abraham might come on d gentiles thru Jesus christ.
U know why God made a new Convenant? He was tired of their heart being far from him.Sin 2day sin 2mrw. "for if first convenant had been faultless then should no place be sought for the second... Nt accordin to the convenant dat i made with their father in the day which i took them out of egypt (ref Exo 4: dat dey may serve in d wildernes with sacrifices or hold a feast) Heb 8:9. BUT to Put his law into their mind and write them in their hearts, to be to them a God. If you read Heb 8 down to 10 you wil see the reason Jesus christ came to the world.
So forget dis issue of natural isreal or not. As path of d benefits of the new convenant we d gentiles were just GRAFTED in to enjoy it too. Part of those convenant ws d law of moses - an eye 4 n eye issue. Although some of them stil operate in dis realm God did nt and can never 4get isreal,they are his people. The new convenant is an upgrade of the old to write his law into our heart not stones, to worship him in truth n spirit nt on mountains, to acess his presence as we wish nt 1ce in a year,to give him sacrifice of praise,tanksgivin n odas nt Blod of ram n animals
Time n space will nt permit me to tell you how the isrealites operated with God all thru there Journey.I was grieved wen i saw hw God got angry with them in Exo 32. They completely 4got him.
WE should also nt deviate from this purpose

'Although some of them stil operate in dis realm God did nt and can never 4get isreal,they are his people.'

frosbel:


You were doing well until you came to this part , I quote :




God cannot forget the true Israel which is the church.

All Israel , which means the born again and redeemed of God not ethnic Israel. Besides the Jews are from Judah not Israel, the Messiah came from Judah through the seed of David.

Christians are idolizing a physical apostate nation who have NO COVENANT with GOD.

This is why Muslims reject our messsage, they cannot understand why we support the murder of countless Palestinian women and children, we donate no money or aid to the Palestinians, we look at them as a wild men, we dehumanize them and doom them to ghettos.

And you really think Jesus supports this silly approach.

After all Jesus did not mince words when he called them the synagogue of Satan [/b]and told them [b]their father was Satan. We are the ones being politically correct and supporting a nation founded not on God but on WAR.

"He shall honor the god of fortresses ( war ) instead of these. A god whom his fathers ( Abraham etc ) did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts." - Daniel 11:38




"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44

"I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you." - Revelation 3:9