Purist:

Be prepared for the Anony cop-out:

"It's his universe, his rules. Don't like it? Go make your own!"

nice one,

what he fails to realise is that any theist of any bloody religion can use that almighty cop-out to justify any bloodthirsty god.

E.g. Muslims can say this is allah's universe, so it cant be wrong if he orders a man to blow up fellow human beings who are infidels.


Ridiculous ideas being defended by these dishonest apologetics

Well, we can all see how stubborn these apologetics can get. Even in the face of so much counter argument/overwhelming rebuttal and king kong size debunking, he still cant see past his silly foundational bias.

Sad part is, he is actually one of the "good" ones. Bothering to research a little (poorly done as it seems) and using that to defend what he believes in.

The ones we should worry about are them that have no clue of anything else in life except what their holy book tells them. What else can make a man blow up himself and believe he is doing a the will of an "all loving" god?

Sick

Mr_Anony:
Lol, It usually starts like this: "please don't quote scripture" after a few lines of debate it changes to: "does the bible say that?".
(I am sorry I can't promise you that I will not quote scripture. If you want to hear about God, then be prepared to consider the bible).

Now to your question: Who is God? (in my words)

God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice.
God is the perfect ultimate being and almighty creator. It is from Him that all things are and were made. He is the origin and ultimate meaning of all existence.

The above is not an exhaustive description but we can use that as a starting point.

Just a basic question first. Why would a perfect ultimate being need rest?

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

musKeeto:

Just a basic question first. Why would a perfect ultimate being need rest?

This post made me lol for a bit
I'm supposed to be sleeping..stup.id addictive internet

musKeeto:

Just a basic question first. Why would a perfect ultimate being need rest?

Here, let me attempt to answer that for Anony.

First, I start by writing "lol".

Then I proceed. . .

How would you define "rest"? What do you really understand by "rest" as used in that verse?

You see, "rest" in heavenly parlance does not mean that one is taking a break from tiredness as we humans understand it. It simply means that since he was done creating everything, there was nothing left to create, hence, the writer had to use the word "rest" for lack of a better word.

By the way, do you have any reason to question why he chose to rest? He is God, the Almighty... He does what he pleases!! Not satisfied? Go make your own universe!!

musKeeto: But the intended meaning of "rest" is very clear in that verse. You can only take a rest when you're tired and you need to recuperate.

Mr_Anony: lol [again], you miss the point. Did you read what I wrote? Go back and read from the beginning so you can present a better argument.

------------
Anony, you owe me a glass of wine.

Mr_Anony:
Now to your question: Who is God? (in my words)

God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice.
God is the perfect ultimate being and almighty creator. It is from Him that all things are and were made. He is the origin and ultimate meaning of all existence.

The above is not an exhaustive description but we can use that as a starting point.

lol. You create your god and give it all the attributes you want, then invite people to argue against your assumptions, which are based on myths and legends.

Purist:
Here, let me attempt to answer that for Anony.
First, I start by writing "lol".
Then I proceed. . .
How would you define "rest"? What do you really understand by "rest" as used in that verse?
You see, "rest" in heavenly parlance does not mean that one is taking a break from tiredness as we humans understand it. It simply means that since he was done creating everything, there was nothing left to create, hence, the writer had to use the word "rest" for lack of a better word.
By the way, do you have any reason to question why he chose to rest? He is God, the Almighty... He does what he pleases!! Not satisfied? Go make your own universe!!
musKeeto: But the intended meaning of "rest" is very clear in that verse. You can only take a rest when you're tired and you need to recuperate.
Mr_Anony: lol [again], you miss the point. Did you read what I wrote? Go back and read from the beginning so you can present a better argument.
------------
Anony, you owe me a glass of wine.

lmao, what about when he says, "god is not omnibenevolent, he is All Loving and love allows suffering and that's why two year old kids have leukemia. God allows the suffering for a greater purpose because he is all loving".(not verbatim)

The mental gymnastics!

Mr_Anony:
Lol, It usually starts like this: "please don't quote scripture" after a few lines of debate it changes to: "does the bible say that?".
(I am sorry I can't promise you that I will not quote scripture. If you want to hear about God, then be prepared to consider the bible).

Now to your question: Who is God? (in my words)

God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice.
God is the perfect ultimate being and almighty creator. It is from Him that all things are and were made. He is the origin and ultimate meaning of all existence.

The above is not an exhaustive description but we can use that as a starting point.

I want a personal opinion that is why I don't want scripture quoted. It doesn't matter what the scripture says, it is how you define God that matters. Why, because the scripture can be somewhat ambigous and open to different interpretations.

So, to you God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice. This is the same God I used to worship. So at least we are referring to the same God. So let me ask:

1) Why did God create the World as imperfect as it is? Why didn't He just re do the whole thing perfectly?

2) What is the purpose of man? Why were we created? If I was God I would have never bothered to create man or at least destroyed man and created a better being.

3) Why does Satan exist and how can he even oppose God? Is it even possible to oppose something on the magnitude of God?

I have more woooohoooo

4) How is it possible for God to create imperfection. How can light create darkness etc? By God creating imperfection He has shown that He is imperfect Himself. Also to what end? Why bother with impoerfection when perfection is better? What is perfection? What are absolutes and why do we believe they exist? Can God ever be absolute?

5) What is the purpose of life? Your life and others who are Xtians? If it is to serve God then why bother with anything else? Why bother trying to achieve when we can just maintain our cordial relationship with God and wait for death so we can go to Heaven etc?

6) Do we really have free will? If we do then how can we truly exercise it if everything is already ordained to happen and is clearly out of our control? Are we not just chess pieces on a chessboard being used in a much grander battle between good and evil which we already know the answer to.

I hope these aren't too lengthy.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, It usually starts like this: "please don't quote scripture" after a few lines of debate it changes to: "does the bible say that?".
(I am sorry I can't promise you that I will not quote scripture. If you want to hear about God, then be prepared to consider the bible).

Now to your question: Who is God? (in my words)

God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice.
God is the perfect ultimate being and almighty creator. It is from Him that all things are and were made. He is the origin and ultimate meaning of all existence.

The above is not an exhaustive description but we can use that as a starting point.

Awesome, bro. However, not to lose our audience's attention, God is Love. You'll find that many conundrums perceived about God are solved by that understanding.

Ihedinobi:

Awesome, bro. However, not to lose our audience's attention, God is Love. You'll find that many conundrums perceived about God are solved by that understanding.

Seriously? Love....
Ok o...

So would you agree that this is a perfect description of Jehovah?

1 Corinthians 13
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Btwa, my other question is still pending...

MacDaddy01:


A voyeuristic sky tyrant is an objective description


Facts about Yaweh from the bible


-He knows what we think. He invades our minds- Viewer in the privacy of the mind.
-He wants us to worship him and no other god
-He once destroyed a whole city for being gay
-He once flooded the whole earth just because some people in the middle east sinned.
-He will torture you in hell if you dont obey him

actually his atrocities are more than that, similar to his bloodthirsty brother allah. didn't yahweh also:
-Forced friends and family to kill each other for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf?
-Burned Aaron's sons to death for offering him strange fire?
-Burned complainers to death, forced the survivors to eat quail until it literally came out their noses, sent "fiery serpents" to bite people for complaining about the lack of food and water, and killed 14,700 for complaining about his killings?
-Buried alive those that opposed Moses (along with their families)?
-Burned 250 men to death for burning incense?
-Rewarded Phinehas for throwing a spear though the bellies of an inter-tribal couple while they were having sex?
-Ordered, assisted in, or approved of dozens of complete genocides?
-Accepted human sacrifice in the cases of Jephthah's daughter and Saul's seven sons?
-Helped Samson murder thirty men for their clothes, slaughter 1000 with the jawbone of an ass, and kill 3000 civilians in a a suicide terrorist attack?
-Smote the Philistines of several cities with hemorrhoids in their secret parts?
-Killed a man for trying to keep the ark of the covenant from falling and 50,070 for looking into the ark?
-Approved when David bought his first wife with 200 Philistine foreskins?
-Killed King Saul for not killing every Amalekite as he told him to do?
-Slowly killed a baby to punish King David for committing adultery?
-Killed 70,000 because David had a census that he (or Satan) told him to do?
-Sent a lion to kill a prophet for believing another prophet's lie, another lion to kill a man for not smiting a prophet, and some more lions to kill people that didn't fear him enough?
-Killed 450 religious leaders who lost a prayer contest with Elijah and burned 102 men to death for asking Elijah to come down from his hill?
-Sent two bears to rip apart 42 boys for making fun of Elisha's bald head?
-Killed 27,000 Syrians by having a wall fall on them, sent an angel to kill 185,000 sleeping soldiers, interfered in human battles to kill a half million Israelite and a million Ethiopian soldiers?
-Killed King Ahab for not killing a captured king, and then sent King Jehu on a series of mass murders to kill all of Ahab's family and friends who had ever "pissed against a wall?"
-Killed Jehoram by making his bowels fall out?
-Killed Job's ten children in a bet with Satan?
-Killed Ezekiel's wife and told him not to mourn her?
-Killed Ananias and Sapphira for not giving Peter all their money?
-Killed King Herod by feeding him to worms?

All of these killings, and more, are found in the Bible, and the God of the Bible is proud of each one.

Here is what he says about them.
I kill ... I wound ...
I will make my arrows
drunk with blood,
and my sword shall devour flesh.
—Deuteronomy 32.39-42
These stories fill the pages of the Bible, yet they are seldom read in church and are completely ignored by most Bible believers and obviously these dishonest apologetics.


http://drunkwithblood.com/

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Area_boy: Well, we can all see how stubborn these apologetics can get. Even in the face of so much counter argument/overwhelming rebuttal and king kong size debunking, he still cant see past his silly foundational bias.

Sad part is, he is actually one of the "good" ones. Bothering to research a little (poorly done as it seems) and using that to defend what he believes in.

The ones we should worry about are them that have no clue of anything else in life except what their holy book tells them. What else can make a man blow up himself and believe he is doing a the will of an "all loving" god?

Sick

This brings something I've been mulling over to the fore of my mind, the more sophisticated ones may be more dangerous. The ones with the ability to wrap what is essentially $hit and pass it off as chocolate greatly influence the ignorant. As the ignorant have never had proper chocolate, they think the $hit they consume is quite good, despite the diarrhea and other issues it introduces. So much so they eventually think $hit is chocolate, and chocolate is $hit.
Eventually when either is confronted, there's the issue of one not willing to admit one's been eating $hit due to pride. Also some of these pridefull ones are patently aware that they are consuming $hit, but as they would look silly and loose some status if they admit it, they do everything in their power to make sure others share their misery.. Etc etc

wiegraf:

This brings something I've been mulling to the fore of my mind, the more sophisticated ones may be more dangerous. The ones with the ability to wrap what is essentially $hit and pass it off as chocolate greatly influence the ignorant. As the ignorant have never had proper chocolate, they think the $hit they consume is quite good, despite the diarrhea and other issues it introduces. So much so they eventually think $hit is chocolate, and chocolate is $hit.
Eventually when either is confronted, there's the issue of one not willing to admit one's been eating $hit due to pride. Also some of these pridefull ones are patently aware that they are consuming $hit, but as they would look silly and loose some status if they admit it, they do everything in their power to make sure others share their misery.. Etc etc

Yeah but the smart ones will never follow their God to the grave. Or rather they make poor suicide bombers etc.

Finally, the atheists are not playing along with Anony's mental gymanstics. His escape tactics have been exposed and ridiculed!

Cyrexxx, Weigraff, Muskeeto and Plaetton may the spaghetti monster bless you with his noodley appendage.


Edited to also mention Atheist-D

Ihedinobi:

Awesome, bro. However, not to lose our audience's attention, God is Love. You'll find that many conundrums perceived about God are solved by that understanding.

This is the definition of love according to the bible. . . . 1 Corinthians 13
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. . . .

Here is what the same bible says about Yahweh. . .


The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies!Nahum 1:2

MacDaddy01: Finally, the atheists are not playing along with Anony's mental gymanstics. His escape tactics have been exposed and ridiculed!

Cyrexxx, Weigraff, Muskeeto and Plaetton may the spaghetti monster bless you with his noodley appendage.


Edited to also mention Atheist-D

thank you, may the almighty Thor, the creator and defender of the universe, grant all your wishes, in Zeus name I pray. Ameeeen.

musKeeto:

Seriously? Love....
Ok o...

So would you say agree that this is a perfect description of Jehovah?


Btwa, my other question is still pending...

Yeah, as perfect as we can manage this side of Reality.

About the other question, sorry, I hadn't been following the thread, just read Anony's comment from my "latest posts by people you follow" and responded to it. I'll probably deal with it when we are done with this one, if it's all the same to you.

cyrexx:


thank you, may the almighty Thor, the creator and defender of the universe, grant all your wishes, in Zeus name I pray. Ameeeen.

May the force and lighting be with you!



#isn't religious parody fun?

jayriginal:

I already noted that the 5 senses were not infallible and I gave my answer as to how we know and know that we know. Showing the limits of the 5 senses isnt necessary because I havent argued that they are infallible.
I think we have come to the point where you proffer your own answer.

Fair enough.
The question how do we know and how do we know that we know?
I'll suggest to you that since our senses are not infallible we cannot know (in the sense of the question). However, there are certain basic information which we must take for granted. This is what we call reality. The problem however is that this basic reality or worldview can be false e.g. the urhobo boy who is sure that he is yoruba. How then do we know if our reality is true or false?
Enter logic: Logic is our way of weighing the truth value of our realities i.e. If our reality is true, then we can identify such and such as should follow from it. If they do not follow from it, then we can say that such a worldview is demonstrably false.

For an explanation of what I mean, we'll go back to the Urhobo boy who thinks he is Yoruba: If someone were to tell him that he is really Urhobo and not Yoruba, his rebuttals (if they are reasonable) would come in the form of "I have X attribute and Yorubas have X attribute therefore it should follow that I am Yoruba". The person trying to convince him must show that the attributes he is holding up are not exclusive to Yorubas and must then provide an attribute which is exclusive to Urhobos that Yorubas cannot have. If the boy has this attribute, then it is settled that he cannot be Yoruba. At this point, they would have arrived at truth by logic.

I'll submit that logic does for us what mathematics does for numbers (the basic laws of logic being the law of identity, the law non-contradiction and the law of the excluded middle)Do you agree up to this point?

musKeeto:
Just a basic question first. Why would a perfect ultimate being need rest?

I think Purist answered in the way I would albeit with a tone of mockery. However, your answer is simple. God did not rest in the sense that humans rest. Rest here signifies cessation from creation. (When we describe God, we ascribe to Him anthropomorphic/humanistic attributes so as to make it make sense to us. That is not an accurate picture of how God is. Compare with phrases like "hand of God", "God remembered" "God looked" etc)

Atheist:-D:


Yeah but the smart ones will never follow their God to the grave. Or rather they make poor suicide bombers etc.

Doesn't matter of course, as they won't be going themselves, some seem to have no problem with having others go for them. Some do so unwittingly. An ignorant might be reading/listening to him, and think that sounds cool. No need to tell the preacher, but his faith is made stronger, delusion increased. Later, he's blowing himself up. Had he never heard the original speech he would have been less deluded, less susceptible to whoever was now manipulating him. The $hit experts are more dangerous. Proper, full education of the ignorant so they know to make their own choices wisely may be the only cure.
Btw religious peeps, I'm only fooling around
Maybe...
Besides the same arguments apply to any ideology taken to extremes, that includes state run personality cults/religions like stalinism, our dear fatherism, etc. Muslims though, emphasize dying for god (not sure, but I think so, 72 virgins, etc), not just living, they might be more dangerous than average

Martian:

lol. You create your god and give it all the attributes you want, then invite people to argue against your assumptions, which are based on myths and legends.

lol, I am asked "please describe in your own words..."
I describe in my own words.
Then I am derided for describing in my own words. lol
The next thing they'll do is accuse me of being dishonest for pointing out their folly.
Truly, I fear that you lot might be beyond help.

Mr_Anony:

Fair enough.
The question how do we know and how do we know that we know?
I'll suggest to you that since our senses are not infallible we cannot know (in the sense of the question). However, there are certain basic information which we must take for granted. This is what we call reality. The problem however is that this basic reality or worldview can be false e.g. the urhobo boy who is sure that he is yoruba. How then do we know if our reality is true or false?
Enter logic: Logic is our way of weighing the truth value of our realities i.e. If our reality is true, then we can identify such and such as should follow from it. If they do not follow from it, then we can say that such a worldview is demonstrably false.

For an explanation of what I mean, we'll go back to the Urhobo boy who thinks he is Yoruba: If someone were to tell him that he is really Urhobo and not Yoruba, his rebuttals (if they are reasonable) would come in the form of "I have X attribute and Yorubas have X attribute therefore it should follow that I am Yoruba". The person trying to convince him must show that the attributes he is holding up are not exclusive to Yorubas and must then provide an attribute which is exclusive to Urhobos that Yorubas cannot have. If the boy has this attribute, then it is settled that he cannot be Yoruba. At this point, they would have arrived at truth by logic.

I'll submit that logic does for us what mathematics does for numbers (the basic laws of logic being the law of identity, the law non-contradiction and the law of the excluded middle)Do you agree up to this point?

The "urhobo boy that thinks he is yoruba" is a failed argument from the beginning. Only a confused person would believe such. One can not argue from that premise.

Mr_Anony:
lol, I am asked "please describe in your own words..."
I describe in my own words.
Then I am derided for describing in my own words. lol
The next thing they'll do is accuse me of being dishonest for pointing out their folly.
Truly, I fear that you lot might be beyond help.

will you stop that arrogant condescending nonsense, Mr i-want-to-help-you

who told you we need help from you.

who do you think you are.

Atheist:-D:


I want a personal opinion that is why I don't want scripture quoted. It doesn't matter what the scripture says, it is how you define God that matters. Why, because the scripture can be somewhat ambigous and open to different interpretations.

So, to you God is eternal and infinite; transcending space, time, matter and energy. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-sufficient, all-loving, ever-present. Immensely great in mercy and justice. This is the same God I used to worship. So at least we are referring to the same God. So let me ask:

1) Why did God create the World as imperfect as it is? Why didn't He just re do the whole thing perfectly?

2) What is the purpose of man? Why were we created? If I was God I would have never bothered to create man or at least destroyed man and created a better being.

3) Why does Satan exist and how can he even oppose God? Is it even possible to oppose something on the magnitude of God?

I have more woooohoooo

4) How is it possible for God to create imperfection. How can light create darkness etc? By God creating imperfection He has shown that He is imperfect Himself. Also to what end? Why bother with impoerfection when perfection is better? What is perfection? What are absolutes and why do we believe they exist? Can God ever be absolute?

5) What is the purpose of life? Your life and others who are Xtians? If it is to serve God then why bother with anything else? Why bother trying to achieve when we can just maintain our cordial relationship with God and wait for death so we can go to Heaven etc?

6) Do we really have free will? If we do then how can we truly exercise it if everything is already ordained to happen and is clearly out of our control? Are we not just chess pieces on a chessboard being used in a much grander battle between good and evil which we already know the answer to.

I hope these aren't too lengthy.

Wow. they are lengthy! I doubt we can go through them all today. I'll try and take them one after the other but I'd like to ask first: Are you willing to extend me the courtesy of actually pondering my responses and equally giving reasoned replies? You have asked some good questions and I will hate to see our discussion go to waste.

cyrexx:

will you stop that arrogant condescending nonsense, Mr i-want-to-help-you

who told you we need help from you.

who do you think you are.

Lol, but y'all obviously need help.

Mr_Anony:
lol, I am asked "please describe in your own words..."
I describe in my own words.
Then I am derided for describing in my own words. lol
The next thing they'll do is accuse me of being dishonest for pointing out their folly.
Truly, I fear that you lot might be beyond help.

Im not arguing with you about whatever attributes god supposedly has, I just find the back and forth funny.
Anyway, anybody can describe god in their own words because god is whatever you make it out to be. You're derided for it because "in my own words" is an implicit admission that your god is whatever you want it to be and any arguments against your views are futile. Besides, your god can be summarily dismissed by comparing him to the other entities known as gods because they all share similar attributes.
The nature and attributes of god are subject to the intelligence and philosophical view of whoever is decribing them, so that's why your God is "all loving" and others will describe god as disinterested. And some will say God is "everything" etc etc etc

Martian:

Im not arguing with you about whatever attributes god supposedly has, I just find the back and forth funny.
Anyway, anybody can describe god in their own words because god is whatever you make it out to be. You're derided for it because "in my own words" is an implicit admission that your god is whatever you want it to be and any arguments against your views are futile. Besides, your god can be summarily dismissed by comparing him to the other entities known as gods because they all share the have similar attributes.
The nature and attributes of god are subject to the intelligence and philosophical view of whoever is them, so that's why your God is "all loving" and others will describe god as disinterested. And some will say God is "everything" etc etc etc

Perhaps you should have read the comment I was responding to before you jumped in and started quoting me out of context.

Mr_Anony:
Perhaps you should have read the comment I was responding to before you jumped in and started quoting me out of context.

I didn't quote you out of context, I just made a comment about your descriptions of god .
At the end of the day, god can only be described "in your own words" and buzugee's word, pagan nja's or any other person's word.

Mr_Anony:
lol, I am asked "please describe in your own words..."
I describe in my own words.
Then I am derided for describing in my own words. lol
The next thing they'll do is accuse me of being dishonest for pointing out their folly.
Truly, I fear that you lot might be beyond help.

lololololol......... Ain't this fun, bro?

Ihedinobi:

lololololol......... Ain't this fun, bro?

ah, the intellectually bankrupt cheerleader arrives!

MacDaddy01:

ah, the intellectually bankrupt cheerleader arrives!

ah, the visually bankrupt pilot notices!