TroGunn:

Jesus can be called Lord, God can reffered to as Lord if one wishes. It doesn 't make them same person. Abraham was referred to as Lord by Sarah. Today Judges are called Lords. Lord is a title of honour.

But there is only one Most High and Almighty God - Jehovah ( Yahweh), who is the maker of the heaveans and earth. Jesus Christ is his beloved servant, get his authority from God and and is surbodinate to Jehovah.

That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. - Psalm 83:18. (Only Jehovah is Most High)

I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will - John 5:30. (Jesus humbles himself before God, the Almighty. )

For the Scriptures say, "God has put all things under his authority." (Of course, when it says "all things are under his authority," that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) - 1 Corinthians 15:27

frosbel:

I rebuke that antichrist catholic spirit !

gbrookes02:


All catholic means is universal or general. Nothing else, so don't get into a tizzy over the word frosbel. The Trinity is accepted by all true Christians universally all through the Church age, that is.

aryzgreat: Frosbel the anti-catholic, on the last day we shall know who will make heaven btwn u nd the catholics u condemnd to hell. Keep hating, beefing the catholic church that even compilled the bible ur little brain is now twisting. Am a catholic for life! Jesus is Lord!

frosbel:

Well then, stop worshipping Mary, praying to GOD through dead saints, reciting the Rosary with incantations and all other abominable practises by this wicked church.

frosbel:


Brilliant !!

Some of the ardent Trinitarians , especially the catholics will be cast into the lake of FIRE for preventing multitudes from entering the kingdom through their peaching of this 3-god LIE.

frosbel: . . . For the first 300 years before the Pagan Emperor Constantine, the Trinity was not a known , talk less of accepted doctrine . . .

There are cult groups (Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians, etc.) who deny the Trinity and state that the doctrine was not mentioned until the 4th Century until after the time of the Council of Nicea (325). This council "was called by Emperor Constantine to deal with the error of Arianism [see page 45] which was threatening the unity of the Christian Church."

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity, as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

ekt_bear:


I don't think that this is how God works.

If it turns out that the Trinity is fake, and Jesus is only an angel as Jehovah's Witnesses believe, I don't think God will send you to hell for praying to Jesus or something.

If you serve God whole-heartedly, whether you are a Protestant, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, even Mormon, I believe that you will go to heaven.

The heart is what matters, not spending all your time analyzing minutae.

[quote author=Enigma]

This is a nonsensical lie that many mumus and wolves are spreading all over the Internet and dunces are lapping up.

ekt_bear: The trinity stuff is really, really weird lol.

frosbel: The Apostles certainly did not believe in the Trinity and neither did the ancient Christians, the Trinity was a heresy which became fully developed hundreds of Years after Christ and was finally sanctioned by the Pagan emperor Constantine.

This was just before the killing and torture of Monotheistic Christians who rejected this foolishness.

Now, I know you are steeped into church tradition, but may I remind you that our standard is the WORD of GOD and not man made tradition.

As the Nairaland leader for the Trinitarian 3-god god worshippers , can you kindly show us ONE place in the bible where GOD says he is 3 ?

I promise to counter each verse with 10 ONENESS verses.

Now, I do not want cherry picking, I want contextualised evidence from the OT to NT.

ekt_bear: The one I don't understand is the praying to Mary or saints.

But even that one, I think God will be understanding of.

ijawkid:
The truth is one cannot worship 3 Gods.....

TroGunn: It was prophesied clearly in the scriptures that they'll be a major deviation from the truth, of which the Trinity is: "Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons". - 1 Tim 4:1. Also Matt. 24:10, 2 Thess. 2:3, 2 Timothy 3:5.

What are some of the facts:

1) The Bible cannot contradict itself. This is fundamental as contradiction = confusion and God is not of confusion. The Trinity doctrine contradicts a good chunk of the rest of the Bible's information about God.
2) Overall the Bible portrays God as one, with no equal - not part of a Trinity.
3) Overall the Bible portrays Jesus as Son of God, God's foremost servant, a medaiator between God and Man, being given authority and elevated by God, but being surbodinate to God.
4) Overall, the Bible does not portray the Holy Spirit as a person. Yes, a few personalization here and there, but overall God's Spirit is portrayed as something God gives/uses to achieve His aims.
5) The Bible wasn't originally witten in English and thus a few portions could be translated in more than one way. Trinitarian try to further their untruth, by twisting translations. Such twists are well known and those desiring to know the truth can always discern such, if humble. A good rule is to compare different translations of the texts to discern original meaning.
6) A bit of ambiguity is created in some Bible translations that replace God's name (Yahweh/Jehovah) with LORD in caps. The preface of such Bibles usually explain their reason for the substitution. Generally, this followed a wrong Jewish tradition, but most newer Bibles tend restore the Name, knowing that such substitutions really amounts to tampering.
7) The Trinity teaching has a finite beginning and history - just google Origin of Trinity or Nicea 325 or Athanacean creed. The Jews didn't and still don't believe it. History shows the early Christians (Apotles) didn't believe it. Jesus didn't beleieve or teach it - he said the Father is greater than himself (John 14:28). The Trinity teaching and term came hundreds of years after - 325 AD.

Enigma:

This is a nonsensical lie that many mumus and wolves are spreading all over the Internet and dunces are lapping up.

This has already been disproved on Nairaland before e.g. https://www.nairaland.com/497445/trinity-doctrine-invented-council-meeting/2#7181702

Anyway, this makes for an opportunity to add another useful link on this particular issue

http://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes

[quote author=Enigma]

So now you admit that you lied with that nonsense about Constantine!

Having been caught in that lie that Christians did not believe in Trinity before Constantine you promptly jump to another deliberate lie.

Well, for the benefit of others reading, Christians know that the apostles called Jesus God and there are clear examples including Peter, Paul Thomas, John, the author of Hebrews etc.

ekt_bear:

No Christian who believes in the Holy Trinity thinks that they are 3 separate Gods.

They are 1 God, but with three different aspects/persons, if you will.

The Church of the First Three Centuries 1865 Alvan Lamson
" . . . The modern doctrine of the Trinity is not found in any document or relic belonging to the Church of the first three centuries. . . so far as any remains or any record of them are preserved, coming down from early times, are, as regards this doctrine an absolute blank. They testify, so far as they testify at all, to the supremacy of the father, the only true God; and to the inferior and derived nature of the Son. There is nowhere among these remains a coequal trinity. . . but no un-divided three, -- coequal, infinite, self-existent, and eternal. This was a conception to which the age had not arrived. It was of later origin."

During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, and that he had a beginning, that he was born. Those that believed otherwise were the exception.

The Doctrine of the Trinity Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound 1994 Anthony F. Buzzard Charles F. Hunting
"Those Trinitarians who believe that the concept of a Triune God was such an established fact that it was not considered important enough to mention at the time the New Testament was written should be challenged by the remarks of another writer, Harold Brown:"
"It is a simple fact and an undeniable historical fact that several major doctrines that now seem central to the Christian Faith – such as the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the nature of Christ – were not present in a full and self-defined generally accepted form until the fourth and fifth centuries. If they are essential today – as all of the orthodox creeds and confessions assert – it must be because they are true. If they are true, then they must always have been true; they cannot have become true in the fourth and fifth century. But if they are both true and essential, how can it be that the early church took centuries to formulate them?"

A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker
"AD 200. . Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."

Man’s Religions John B. Noss 1968
"The controversy first became heated when Apollinarius, a bishop in Syria . . . asserted that Christ could not have been perfect man united with complete God, for then there would not have been one Son of God, but two sons, one by nature and one by adoption, the first with a divine, the second with a human will. Such a thing seemed inconceivable, religiously abhorrent."

"Nestorius . . . preached a sermon against calling the virgin Mary ‘the mother of God’ declaring she did not bear a deity, she bore a man,"
Numbers 23:19 states that God is not a man. God was not born, and God certainly did not die, but when people deviate from what the Bible teaches you can come up with the bizarre complexities of trinitarian religious mysteries that contradict logic, common sense and God’s Word.

New Bible Dictionary 1982
"The word trinity is not found in the Bible . . ."
". . . it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
". . . it is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formation of it can be found in the Bible, . . ."
"Scripture does not give us a formulated doctrine of the trinity, . . ."

The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism 1995
". . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament."

If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then how did the church of the first three centuries get along so well without it? If the trinity is the cornerstone of Christianity then why is it not mentioned in the Bible?

gbrookes02: @frosbel...When I (as well as many others) use the word catholic (and I even spell it with a small "c" I mean all true Christians universally through the Church age, it has nothing to do with the false Roman Catholic State "Church". Even you recognise that the word "catholic" means universal, so why the tizzy by you over the word. It is use in many different contexts to mean many different things universally, that has nothing to do at all with the false Roman Catholic State "Church".

The Trinity was taught long before the Pagan Emperor Constantine, and The Council of Nicea, see the article "Early Trinitarian Quotes" at: http://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes

If you had read the Athanasian Creed in my post at page 4 you would of seen that Trinitarians don't believe in three gods but one God that is one Being shared by three persons. Go on page 4 and read the Athanasian Creed in my post to get the proper of The Trinity. And also read the article and listen sermon to the links that I posted the that same post to understand The Trinity doctrine as clearly taught in God's word. Also buying the books meantioned in that same article will help alot as well.

It seems to me to you are only arguing for arguing sake, and that is a sin. The reason why I said that is because you are not dealing with the scriptures put forth in support of The Trinity such as John 1:1, Matthew 28:19, and so on. You are completely ignoring them, and thus very unwilling to learn. That is why I said it said seems to me to you are only arguing for arguing sake, and that is a sin and nothing but a waste of time and resources.

frosbel:


Can we be saved without a belief in the Trinity ?

gbrookes02:

NO