To Forgive

It’s been a rough couple of months. Losing the first cat wasn’t so bad (I wrote a nice article for the newspaper about that). The second cat was a lot harder (see the previous post). But that was nothing. My brother-in-law called yesterday morning and told me my sister had died. I didn’t even know she was ill. Everyone else did. All her friends, the entire family, her church. Not me. Because she had expressly told them she didn’t want me to be told. They had their chance to visit her in the hospice where she lay dying of cancer. Not me. They begged her to let them tell me. She refused. Why?

Because I am an atheist.

It was her final gesture to me, her final retribution for my lack of belief in her god.

We had been estranged for a long time because I did not share her fundamentalist Christian beliefs, or in fact, any belief in a god at all. I am not an “evangelistic” atheist. I don’t push my beliefs aggressively on others, although if they push theirs on me I’ll readily push back. If a claim, religious or otherwise, seems patently ridiculous to me, I have little patience for it. But although I do not believe in God, I do believe in tolerance. Besides, she was my only sister. Our parents and grandparents were gone, and she was the only close family I had left. She could have believed in alien abductions and fairies in the back garden and it wouldn’t have mattered to me.

Those who knew her and loved her, knew what they had lost when she died. I can never know because she denied me that. Even at the end, when she was dying, she denied me the chance to speak with her one last time. That was the deepest cut of all. But I don’t blame those who knew she was dying and didn’t tell me. It was her wish and they felt compelled to honor it. I forgive them, and moreover, I feel deep sympathy for them because of the terrible position they were in. I am sorry they had to deal with that on top of dealing with Erica’s death.

I cannot know what possessed Erica to do this to me. She said it was because I had no faith. Because I am an atheist. She held her love for me hostage, demanding a payment I could not give, because belief is not a choice. It comes from the heart. It is a conviction that you cannot argue yourself out of even if you try. It is what makes sense to you, even if it is because you must throw up your hands and admit you don’t understand. Credo quia absurdum. I respect that.

You see, I had no problem with Erica’s faith. We cannot know what compels a person to believe in one thing and not another. We argue, debate, but we rarely change each other’s convictions. Still, if the debating is done in the proper spirit, it has its use, as a means to help us understand what it is that each believes. Because we must all learn to live together, in spite of our differences. We can do this through compassion, through understanding, through tolerance and forgiveness. This is what I believe. It is not a Christian thing; it is not a Buddhist thing; it is not an atheist thing. It is a human thing.

I always hoped that some day Erica would relent, and would welcome me into her heart and let me know her. Now that she is gone, so is that chance, that hope. That is what I have lost. She was my only sister. We should have been close. We should have forgiven each other our differences and shared the love of family. Her nephews, my sons, will have no memories of her. She denied them that. What a tragedy. She said she believed in a god of love and compassion, why then had she none for me? She said she believed in a forgiving savior, why then, could she not forgive me? It baffles me.

But I forgive her, because she must have had her reasons, reasons I cannot understand. And if I am to see any good come from her death, and the way she denied me, it is by appealing to all of you, theist and atheist alike, but especially Christians: Do not shut others out of your heart because they do not share your faith. If your god is true and real and as powerful as you believe, what defense does he need? I am an atheist, but I am not the enemy. I do not seek to deny you your faith, or the faith of any other. If you act in love, compassion and forgiveness, then I have no quarrel with you. Let this be our common ground.

There are so many things that set us against one other. Please don’t let differences in belief be among them. Do not let forgiveness be solely the prerogative of the Divine.


http://justinegraykin./2012/11/05/to-forgive/

Oh yes, my opinion; she worry. I don't particularly care for the eediots in my family that have an issue with me. They are more or else dead to me. Young atheists, make sure you figure out a way to make ca$h, or else....

Wow wiegraf, when I started reading it, I thought these things happened to you.
Then I saw the link.


As regards your topic, this is just a separate case. You should realize that not all theists would act like the ones in your story.
Many of us are actually much nicer.

fellis: Wow wiegraf, when I started reading it, I thought these things happened to you.
Then I saw the link.


As regards your topic, this is just a separate case. You should realize that not all theists would act like the ones in your story.
Many of us are actually much nicer.

Lies. Why not ask your nairaland daddy called Maclatunji.

He said that his daughter will face consequences if she married an atheist. He also said that he doesnt have and doesnt need atheist friends.


Please, a significant number of theists are discriminatory towards atheists.


You have LagosShia that clearly said that he would gladly kill Salman Rushdie.

You have Vedaxcool that thinks that all atheists are gay.


These 3 main people in your islamic section would probably do the same and shun an atheist member of their family.

fellis: Wow wiegraf, when I started reading it, I thought these things happened to you.
Then I saw the link.


As regards your topic, this is just a separate case. You should realize that not all theists would act like the ones in your story.
Many of us are actually much nicer.

Lol.. crazy people will do crazy things.. religions in most cases just makes it worse.... Nothing like a man who believes his actions are stamped by the MOST HIGH..

Logicboy03:


Lies. Why not ask your nairaland daddy called Maclatunji.

He said that his daughter will face consequences if she married an atheist. He also said that he doesnt have and doesnt need atheist friends.


Please, a significant number of theists are discriminatory towards atheists.


You have LagosShia that clearly said that he would gladly kill Salman Rushdie.

The consequences maclatunji said that his daughter will face for marrying an atheist are probably consequences such as having difficulty practising her religion and sticking to it or something similar and it is possible for him to not be in need of atheist friends.
Just like you might not be in need of a Hindu friend, not necessarily because you hate them but because of reasons such as your not having much in common with them or not having the same interests as them.

As for LagosShia, he has his own version of Shia Islam that he practises so I am not very surprised that he made a statement like that. Shiites are known for carrying out self flaggelation and immorality in the name of temporary marriage.

You have Vedaxcool that thinks that all atheists are gay.


These 3 main people in your islamic section would probably do the same and shun an atheist member of their family.

vedaxcool was clearly joking with you. Why didn't you mention tbaba and sweetnecta? Those are nice Muslims that wish no one harm.

musKeeto:
Lol.. crazy people will do crazy things.. religions in most cases just makes it worse....

I agree. An innately evil person will do evil things and religion can make them worse.
Atheism can also make them worse.

fellis:

I agree. An innately evil person will do evil things and religion can make them worse.
Atheism can also make them worse.

That is a lie. Please try to make a case for how atheism will make them worse.

fellis:

The consequences maclatunji said that his daughter will face for marrying an atheist are probably consequences such as having difficulty practising her religion and sticking to it or something similar and it is possible for him to not be in need of atheist friends.
Just like you might not be in need of a Hindu friend, not necessarily because you hate them but because of reasons such as your not having much in common with them or not having the same interests as them.

As for LagosShia, he has his own version of Shia Islam that he practises so I am not very surprised that he made a statement like that. Shiites are known for carrying out self flaggelation and immorality in the name of temporary marriage.



vedaxcool was clearly joking with you. Why didn't you mention tbaba and sweetnecta? Those are nice Muslims that wish no one harm.

[size=18pt]I want everybody to look at what some muslims will do for the religion. Lying for the religion. This is taquiyyah! Carefully read Fellis's statement[/size]


1) You werent talking to maclatunji, I was. Maclatunji was talking about the consequences between him and his daughter, he wasnt talking about marital problems between husband and wife. Maclatunji clearly said that he doesnt want any atheist friend. Is that not bigotry? How can you defend such?

2) You threw LagosShia under the bus because you could easily say that he is a heretic, a kaffir. Who are you to say that Sunni Islam is right and Shia is wrong?

3) Where does a joke end? Vedaxcool has repeated this accusation- "atheism is the religion of gays", "gaytheism" etc he has said so repeatedly over these last weeks. One must really hate atheists to do such. Imagine if I was always saying Islam is the religion of terrorism. What would you think of me?



Tbaba is one of the few sane ones among you. Sweetnecta is an illiterate that doesnt even like to see muslim men marry christian women. I wonder what he thinks about atheists marrying muslims. However, Sweetnecta's problem is ignorance because he is a very kind person when you talk to him



Tbaba and Sweetnecta are kind. Just wish Sweetnecta was a bit more intelligent

Now I see why he eventually left Catholicism, An INHERENT INABILITY TO COMPREHEND SIMPLE THINGS INDEED, FELLIS YOU NEED NOT WASTE YOUR TIME, THESE ATHEIST HAVE INGRAINED HATRED FOR RELIGION AND DISDAIN FOR MORALITY, they lack tolerance yet they want others to tolerate them, how many times have you read wiegraf statement calling everyone in the Islamic section something close to savge? don't waste your time with this sort of people who only believe tolerance applies to to them and is a carte Blanche to being something hardly different from hypocrisy, now as for the gay issue visit the this page and you would this same people that won't to have the right to isult religion and everything sacred and less tolerant when you ask simple questions that seems more like a pondering, now see him calling sweetnecta an illiterate becaoz he holds his own views, tell me do you se what i mean, tolerance to them means only their views get respected only they have the right to question others faith etc that is what tolerance, as for the gaytheism, my view have not change, atheism remains a path that seems more attractive for gays because, it makes the intellectual case for being gay. https://www.nairaland.com/1072447/could-atheism-considered-gay-religion and that is what my point is all about.

vedaxcool: Now I see why he eventually left Catholicism, An INHERENT INABILITY TO COMPREHEND SIMPLE THINGS INDEED, FELLIS YOU NEED NOT WASTE YOUR TIME, THESE ATHEIST HAVE INGRAINED HATRED FOR RELIGION AND DISDAIN FOR MORALITY, they lack tolerance yet they want others to tolerate them, how many times have you read wiegraf statement calling everyone in the Islamic section something close to savge? don't waste your time with this sort of people who only believe tolerance applies to to them and is a carte Blanche to being something hardly different from hypocrisy, now as for the gay issue visit the this page and you would this same people that won't to have the right to isult religion and everything sacred and less tolerant when you ask simple questions that seems more like a pondering, now see him calling sweetnecta an illiterate becaoz he holds his own views, tell me do you se what i mean, tolerance to them means only their views get respected only they have the right to question others faith etc that is what tolerance, as for the gaytheism, my view have not change, atheism remains a path that seems more attractive for gays because, it makes the intellectual case for being gay. https://www.nairaland.com/1072447/could-atheism-considered-gay-religion and that is what my point is all about.

Fellis, see my point?


(btw, gays could be agnostic, deist, buddhists etc these are all tolerant to them but we all know why vedaxcool goes for atheism)

Logicboy03:

That is a lie. Please try to make a case for how atheism will make them worse.

Are you serious?
I don't need to make any case, there are evil people that abstain from committing some crimes because they are scared of being punished by God.
Atheism would make those evil people worse because without fear of God they would no longer be scared to commit those crimes.
How did you not know this?

Logicboy03:

1) You werent talking to maclatunji, I was. Maclatunji was talking about the consequences between him and his daughter, he wasnt talking about marital problems between husband and wife. Maclatunji clearly said that he doesnt want any atheist friend. Is that not bigotry? How can you defend such?

It is not bigotry, calm down.
Not everyone wants atheist friends. Maclatunji probably doesn't want atheist friends because he has little in common with you guys, like I said before.

3) Where does a joke end? Vedaxcool has repeated this accusation- "atheism is the religion of gays", "gaytheism" etc he has said so repeatedly over these last weeks. One must really hate atheists to do such. Imagine if I was always saying Islam is the religion of terrorism. What would you think of me?

He is just joking, relax.

Just wish Sweetnecta was a bit more intelligent

English is not Sweetnecta's first language, you shouldn't make fun of him for that.

This thread has a nice, homely feel to it.

@fellis, of course I know not all religious are like that. I know many who in their default mode make me look incredulously douchie (when some of their indoctrination kicks in though, let's say they become less than charitable). My issue usually is with the irrational ones, the blind followers, or those that seek to impose their will on others. In 9ja, that's a very large chunk of the population...

And yeah, the 4 of the 5 'oga' muslims (vedax,sweetnecta,tbaba,mac - but I've not really engaged mac) are decent dudes, well except of course @vedax. As usual though when they decide to attach more weight to their unfounded beliefs than real life people...well, let's say I think the results are sad

@vedax! I've given up on reading your posts, so I dunno what you're on about. I hope you've been taking your meds

fellis:

Are you serious?
I don't need to make any case, there are evil people that abstain from committing some crimes because they are scared of being punished by God.
Atheism would make those evil people worse because without fear of God they would no longer be scared to commit those crimes.
How did you not know this?

Here are the problesm with your statement


1) The people are already evil. Christianity/Islam has never held back murderers and terrorists. All they need to do is find what agrees with t hem in the holy book.

2) If god is holding them back, they only need to switch the god they fear. If Allah is holding someone back from killing, what then happens if he becomes a djinn worshipper? Would Allah still hold him back?

Gaysterism in Display that word gaystan sorry gangster

nothing to see here

vedaxcool: Gaysterism in Display that word gaystan sorry gangster

nothing to see here

You forgot your
BUHAHAAAHHAHAH, though you still kept the smileys

@fellis, when did my grammar become as good as the ops? And children, me?? Heh heh, no. Etc etc

And of course there are atheists that are rather bigoted as well, but you wouldn't pin it down to atheist doctrine, that doesn't exist. The issue is religions encouraging discrimination, even if subtly. Like the kaffir, anti-semitism or sexuality issues (though these are not so subtle). Atheism doesn't encourage, or even condemn, such. Also, claiming being an atheist drastically affects moral xter is tenuous at best, many morally corrupt were theists.

But mostly, a general how have you been?

wiegraf:

You forgot your
BUHAHAAAHHAHAH, though you still kept the smileys

@fellis, when did my grammar become as good as the ops? And children, me?? Heh heh, no. Etc etc

And of course there are atheists that are rather bigoted as well, but you wouldn't pin it down to atheist doctrine, that doesn't exist. The issue is religions encouraging discrimination, even if subtly. Like the kaffir, anti-semitism or sexuality issues (though these are not so subtle). Atheism doesn't encourage, or even condemn, such. Also, claiming being an atheist drastically affects moral xter is tenuous at best, many morally corrupt were theists.

But mostly, a general how have you been?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

the above link shows atheism as bad as it can get

Many religionists here dont realise the butthurt that they give to atheists. Some religious people dont realise how painful it is to be told that you are immoral, devil worshippers, damned and a blasphemer. They also dont understand the pain of being maltreated by one's own family.


When they see atheists complaining here on the internet or Nairaland, they think we are hating god but actually, we are complaining about intolerance and the immorality in religion. We dont believe in god, we just hate the wicked things done in the name of god.


This is not to say that there are no bad atheists.

Food for thought

What most theist are saying, that the devil deceive people into false paths, thereby making these people promote a way of life that legitimise evil under the guise of being atheist. Offcourse I know of devil worshipping atheist, who do so just to undermine religion and morality. Theist simply point is atheism is false and that is that. No butt hurt please!

vedaxcool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

the above link shows atheism as bad as it can get

Just so you know, I probably won't (ever, unless you hit your head and that drastically changes the way your brain works) be replying you seriously

wiegraf:

Just so you know, I probably won't (ever, unless you hit your head and that drastically changes the way your brain works) be replying you seriously

Just ignore him.

Most people do

Logicboy03:
Here are the problems with your statement
1) The people are already evil. Christianity/Islam has never held back murderers and terrorists. All they need to do is find what agrees with them in the holy book.
2) If God is holding them back, they only need to switch the god they fear. If Allah is holding someone back from killing, what then happens if he becomes a djinn worshipper? Would Allah still hold him back?

1) Theists don't always do that. And the theists that 'find' what supports their misdeeds in the Qur'an always turn out to be misinterpreting it. Don't know about other religions.
2) This is funny. I have never heard of theists switching religions because they fear the god they worship.

wiegraf:

grammar become as good as the ops? And children, me?? Heh heh, no. Etc etc
?

I am not good with details, sorry.

Atheism doesn't encourage, or even condemn, such. Also, claiming being an atheist drastically affects moral xter is tenuous at best, many morally corrupt were theists.

My claim is not tenous, your claim that a lot of theists are morally corrupt is what is tenous seeing as how morality is subjective.

But mostly, a general how have you been?

Fine.

fellis:




1) Theists don't always do that. And the theists that 'find' what supports their misdeeds in the Qur'an always turn out to be misinterpreting it. Don't know about other religions.
2) This is funny. I have never heard of theists switching religions because they fear the god they worship.

1) So you agree with my first point

2) So, then people wont switch to atheism either and be killers.

wiegraf:

Just so you know, I probably won't (ever, unless you hit your head and that drastically changes the way your brain works) be replying you seriously

I understand, replying when your intellect is way beneath the intelligence we associate with dolphins will amount to a disgrace more sham,eful than walking the street unclothed! so beat it!

https://www.nairaland.com/971091/what-position-letting-children-play


A very good thread

Logicboy03:


1) So you agree with my first point

2) So, then people wont switch to atheism either and be killers.

I didn't agree with your first point, but whatever.
Secondly, they don't have to switch to atheism to be killers.
They can be told that their religion is a fraud and convinced to become atheists (by other evangelical atheists) and if they end up convinced, they become atheists and commit whatever crime they like since there is no fear of hell holding them back any longer.

fellis:


My claim is not tenous, your claim that a lot of theists are morally corrupt is what is tenous seeing as how morality is subjective.

Your claims are still tenuous

Hmmm, I'd like to believe there were an objective, universal moral code, but if one's brutally honest that's just wishful thinking. It maybe also isn't practical in day to day dealings to assume there isn't one, but that depends on other things, particularly education and maturity. Maybe if we had picked a code, one based on natural evil, or suffering and basic human rights? Mayhaps the UN's, which most governments have signed on to, it being universally accepted. I would normally use this but....

The logic delightful, and I like me some good logic even if its implications are distasteful. Well played, good ser, well played. I'll let this one go, for now...

fellis:

I didn't agree with your first point, but whatever.
Secondly, they don't have to switch to atheism to be killers.
They can be told that their religion is a fraud and convinced to become atheists (by other evangelical atheists) and if they end up convinced, they become atheists and commit whatever crime they like since there is no fear of hell holding them back any longer.

lol.......

1) you are assuming that hell stops people from committing crimes. A fallacious way of thinking. I can point to you the muslim parents who poured acid on their daughter (and killed her) because she was talking to a boy.

2) Why didnt the "evangelist" atheists (evenagelist atheist is an oxymoron) in your story not kill people? Why would it be the convert that would kill people?

They can be told that their religion is a fraud and convinced to become atheists (by other evangelical atheists) and if they end up convinced, they become atheists and commit whatever crime they like since there is no fear of hell holding them back any longer

3) Really? They can be told that their religion is a fraud by Dawah Wahabbist terrorist sects and if they end up being convinced, they become extreme wahabbists and commit whatever crime they like since there is no fear of hell holding back any longer because of 72 virgins for murder/matyrdom.


4) When last have you heard n atheist engaging in terrorism or bombing churches? Atheists are hardly represented in prisons compared to their percentage in America.

Well played, good ser, well played. I'll let this one go, for now..

hmmm see this ungodly ones also doing pity pity face here. but really, why tolerate a goat as a family member in the name of tolerance? is it rational?

Image123: hmmm see this ungodly ones also doing pity pity face here. but really, why tolerate a goat as a family member in the name of tolerance? is it rational?

Fellis, see what religion can do to the human mind?


An atheist is now a goat in the family.