This is about if we choose Heave or Hell or if God ordains it

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643) states:
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death[/color]. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power. through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only[color=#990000]. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.[/color] (Chap. III — Articles I, III, VI and VII)
The Westminster Confession also states in Chapter X:
All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

ANGLICAN STATEMENTS (Thirty Nine Articles)
"XVII. Of Predestination and Election. Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind[color=#990000], and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only- begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity. "

All Bible thumping Christians, why are you shying away from this thread? Are you afraid you might afterall have been chosen to hell? Why no response from Christians? My hope in starting this thread was to bring to nought the idea of "accept Christ or go to hell, for it will be your own fault if you didnt accept Christ."

So all fundamentalist christians - defend your religion!

i don't appreciate being called names or titles, only responding because you specifically asked on the other thread. My response is that i don't live my life based on creeds, confession and articles. i live by faith in the Word of God, the Bible that is.

but the creeds have Bible backings though. Just not listed for brevity.

Thus says the Lord:

1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

The Bible is here telling you that some people were destined to sins. Need more Bible verses?

Again, to the nairaland christian community - why are you shying away?

Read the whole thread and then ask what question or present what arguments you will.

First of all thanks ihedinobi & Image123 for participating in this thread. My main aim is sound reasoning. I have looked at the thread and the comments make sense. In particular I would like to reason with the following quote from ihedinobi based on that thread:

Finally, if we were all to lay aside our spiritual (?) prejudices and examine the Word of God, we will be surprised to find that some elements in both Arminianism and Calvinism were borrowed from Christ. We would see how a loving God predestinates without binding man to His Will whether he, man, likes it or not. We will see how God's love or hatred for people before they're even born is totally dependent on their acceptance or rejection of Him when they have been born. We will see how punishment for rejecting God is less an act of a vindictiveness and more an act of Love accepting rejection withou taking away justice.

First, this quote is in line with the westminster confession given above so there is consistency.
But I think this is errorneous: We would see how a loving God predestinates without binding man to His Will whether he, man, likes it or not.
Men are indeed saved whether they like it or not because apparently saved people are God's gift to Christ. The most relevant portion of Bible to support this is: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" they believe because they have been so ordained so indeed man was bound to his will of salvation without choices and these men are speecific not just whoever will for God said to Paul to not be afraid while preaching "for I have much people in this city" who again will be saved.

Now in terms of God predestinating without binding men to his will, we see again the reverse as being the case where God even recorded specific actions of ALL humans before a single day had passed:

Psalm
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

Job
You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be that find it.

These verses sum up everything both in terms of predestination o eternal destinies and even of actual actions of men. God set limits.

Again to cut the long story short, my point is that both the west minster confession and anglican articles are accurate reflections of what the bible says about the destinies of men and that indeed some men cannot accept christ simply because they were not elected. And secondly that the elect and the elect only will be saved and such are few in number. My final point is that the majority of mankind canot be saved, that anybody not elect will burn in everlasting torment to the praise of the glorious justice of God according to the bible.

[size=15pt]@OP So, do you have any problem with that?
What gives u right in the whole of the entire universe to question the will of the source of all creation?
How dare a pot question his/her potter's will?
Dont the potter have the right to mold his clay the way he deem fit?
And yes, we've been chosen by God, for christ himself said ''no man can come to me except the father sent him to me'' we are chosen by God even before the world was made and his holy spirit at work in us is a mark of his favour through christ Jesus.
So what problem have u got with this.
If you still wanna question God's authority, then go ahead, kneel down and call upon his name and ask him to answer your queries, let's see if God has now become your servant or is now accountable to you. [/size]

BigBashiru: First of all thanks ihedinobi & Image123 for participating in this thread. My main aim is sound reasoning. I have looked at the thread and the comments make sense. In particular I would like to reason with the following quote from ihedinobi based on that thread:



First, this quote is in line with the westminster confession given above so there is consistency.
But I think this is errorneous: We would see how a loving God predestinates without binding man to His Will whether he, man, likes it or not.
Men are indeed saved whether they like it or not because apparently saved people are God's gift to Christ. The most relevant portion of Bible to support this is: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" they believe because they have been so ordained so indeed man was bound to his will of salvation without choices and these men are speecific not just whoever will for God said to Paul to not be afraid while preaching "for I have much people in this city" who again will be saved.

Now in terms of God predestinating without binding men to his will, we see again the reverse as being the case where God even recorded specific actions of ALL humans before a single day had passed:

Psalm
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

Job
You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be that find it.

These verses sum up everything both in terms of predestination o eternal destinies and even of actual actions of men. God set limits.

Again to cut the long story short, my point is that both the west minster confession and anglican articles are accurate reflections of what the bible says about the destinies of men and that indeed some men cannot accept christ simply because they were not elected. And secondly that the elect and the elect only will be saved and such are few in number. My final point is that the majority of mankind canot be saved, that anybody not elect will burn in everlasting torment to the praise of the glorious justice of God according to the bible.

I'm afraid I don't have the luxury of time and energy to respond to this kind of post. I'm not saying that it's not worth responding to, just that it contradicts the sound reasoning you say you want.

First you say that that part of one of my posts which you quoted agrees with the Westminster article, then you proceed to disagree with its core disagreement with the same article. Again, it's quite clear that you did not study that discussion well. That quote you provided from one of my posts was the summary of my arguments on that thread, and while it is truly representative of said arguments, it wants detailing for clarification.

To evidence this, let me ask you: if I offered you a million dollars with advice to make certain kinds of investments and not others, knowing however that you will blow it on wine and women because I am very intelligent and a great judge of character, can it rightly be said that I destined you to squander the money and end up dead of AIDS and wasting cancers? Especially if all along the way I keep offering you help with investing your money correctly?

If you can rightly say so, why? If you cannot, why not?

I'm not very enthusiastic about this discussion so I implore you to give your answers good thought. That'd help me converse effectively with you.

Ihedinobi

You are not obliged to respond further if you dont want to.

To any other readers what I need is for people to support their arguments with Bible verses as I have done. I quoted specific Bible verses showing how the Bible verses I have quoted supports the West minster confession. Ihedinobi has just given analogies with investment/ AIDS. I gave the very word of God stating the truth. So if anyone thinks what I have stated is not the truth, can you then counter with specific Bible verses. Thanks.

^^^ In other words, you've got next to no understanding of the very arguments you're making or else you're just being disingenuous. Have fun by yourself then.

Why are you attacking me? Please no getting personal, kindly click the back button on your browser unto another thread as i have not the time for this; your invitation to respond to the thread is now expired and you may please respond no further. Other respondents to this post, please feel free to respond.

Attacking you? Who's attacking you?

Ihedinobi: Attacking you? Who's attacking you?

Do you ever pause to wonder why everyone accuses you of the same thing?
Please ignore me..

musKeeto:
Do you ever pause to wonder why everyone accuses you of the same thing?
Please ignore me..

Like who else?

Kinda hard to ignore you when you say things like that, you know

haha bigbash, he said you should have fun. How is that an attack na?

Image123

In other words, you've got next to no understanding of the very arguments you're making or else you're just being disingenuous. Have fun by yourself then.

Is an attack. Anyways, thanks for visiting.

Hmmm, you're sullllllllking, pele. Oya, lemme help out.
It is very plainly shown in the bible that the human being has a part to play in his/her salvation. I'll show you more than a dozen scriptures that plainly and clearly state and conclude that. In the light of these passages, there are two options for which you may believe otherwise from the skimpy number of passages you may present to support the otherwise. One option is that you have misunderstood the skimpy passages and need to update yourself. the second option is that the skimpy passages are contradictory to the plethora i'm about to present. If this is the case, i'd advice that you believe the plethora instead of believing the skimpy. Why believe skimpy saddenning passages, when you could believe a plethora of hope-giving passages? Okaaaey, enough on the s & p already.
God wants everybody to be saved, so why would He predestinate anybody to hell or to perish?
1. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
3. Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
4. Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
5. Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
6. Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
7. Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Above are 7 different passages showing us that God wants, wills, desires that everybody should be saved. Let me proceed to show you the invitation to all and sundry. The invitation to eternal life, salvation is for all and sundry, heaven is prepared for everybody.
1. Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
2. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
3. Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
4. Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
5. Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
6. Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
7. Rom 10:11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
8. 1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
9. Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

From the above,we can conclude that the promise of salvation, forgiveness of sins, sonship and friendship with God is for whosoever. Salvation is not only for some sect, the offer is for every human. It is by grace that the Bible says we are saved, and that grace has been given to ALL men. Look at it below.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

I've given you more than a dozen scripture passages showing and inviting all human beings to taste of God's offer of salvation and forgiveness. The Bible says that the Word is ESTABLISHED in the mouth of many witnesses. I've given you many witnesses and passages from old and new testament.
If the word 'ordain' or any of its synonyms is what is bothering you, bother no more. To ordain simply/basically means to 'choose/appoint'. Many are called, but few are chosen. God has called all of us, but He chooses us based on the set standards of grace and faith. That one is chosen doesn't mean he cannot be sacked. Judas Iscariot was chosen and ordained. So don't feel bullied or discouraged thinking oh what if i'm not ordained. WHO TOLD YOU that you were not?
Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into a house.

Jesus Christ in conjunction with God the Father ordained Judas Iscariot. Salvation is not limited or forced on the ordained that irrespective of what happens, they will get to Heaven, no. You too can be saved and chosen if you believe and receive Jesus as the Christ, your Christ.

BigBashiru: Why are you attacking me? Please no getting personal, kindly click the back button on your browser unto another thread as i have not the time for this; your invitation to respond to the thread is now expired and you may please respond no further. Other respondents to this post, please feel free to respond.

He wasn't attacking you at all, I think you missed his point entirely.

The question you seem to be asking is: if God has predestined, why then bother serve Him or not serve Him since if you are predestined to be doomed, you are doomed anyway and if you are predestined to be saved, you are saved anyway?

Please consider the question he asked again, it uncovers something very interesting about God's omniscience and how it relates to freewill and predestination.

Trust me on this: Your best "christian arguments" are not the ones where folks lift and throw verses at each other but the ones where folks actually seek to understand scripture.

Image123: Hmmm, you're sullllllllking, pele. Oya, lemme help out.
It is very plainly shown in the bible that the human being has a part to play in his/her salvation.

Image123, you are almost blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Be careful! Check all the passages quoted here, the very word of God then tell me if you still think human still has a part to play. For the scriptures you have quoted,

1. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To will is different than to ordain. Yes God is not willing that any should perish but to demonstrate his glorious justice as clearly stated in Romans, it pleased him to ORDAIN some men to death before they had done anything good or bad. So just because he is not willing that any should perish does not mean that he still does not ordain some to perish. For even though he was unwilling that any should perish, he foreordained them to perish by leaving them to their own evil vices such that God is not the cause of their perishment yet he ordained them so. Read 1 Peter 3:8 then read the below.



NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO HAS SENT ME DRAW HIM - does it sound like you have a part to play in this? If after you have read all the Bible passages below and still believe you have a part to play then I honestly think you may have been blinded by the devil!

Psa 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Job 14:5 You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (i wonder why some fools here mock allah because of this.)
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Let me just conclude with this just one verse as if the one I gave was not enough:

Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her[color=#990000][/color]
Who did Christ die for? the church! Does not the Bible call Christ the husband of the church or bride cant remember exactly.

Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
OF WHICH HE IS SAVIOR - it is limited. Only such as should be saved are saved!

John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son....

How do we reconcile these two verses? The answer is in LIMITED ATONEMENT. Yes Christ died for the whole world but the death is effectual to the elect (the remnant of the seed of the woman). This means that the preordained unsaved will go to hell and some Christians also who are not the remnant of the seed of the woman will likewise go to hell. So yes Christ died for all mankind but that death is only effectual for the elect (remnant of the seed of the woman). The rest are cursed to everlasting punishment and they cant do anything about it for it was ordained!

@BigBashiru:

The Bible speaks of pre-destination! But look at the larger picture and consider language differences and speech inflections!

Look at this statement - I get up every morning! This implies I will "stand" up every morning! YET that is wrong because what it really means is to "wake up"!

You are assuming (and I have fallen into the exact same trap and questioned the same as you) that God wants some to go to hell when what He is saying is that the door to both heaven and hell are open but the choice is yours just as you could wake and decide not to stand up!

Here's a parallel - using my example, you'll find that usually, people who are "fine" (good health = righteous\forgiven) will wake and stand up (go to heaven) whist the sick (sinful etc) will wake (death) but not stand up (continue to the right destination)!

The choice is not waking but what you do after but that usually is based on what you did prior to even that sleep!

Image123, you are almost blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Be careful! Check all the passages quoted here, the very word of God then tell me if you still think human still has a part to play. For the scriptures you have quoted,

BigB, i do not just think that humans have a part to play in their salvation, i know it. i know it because the Bible severally says so. Salvation is conditional. I'm okay with the scriptures you have presented. Every good speaker knows their audience and how to communicate with each audience. It is now left to you the follower of the audience to seek to reconcile and understand the mind of the speaker, out of careful study and experience. i can simply throw back another set of verses showing you that salvation is conditional, but in the end it all depends on you. What do you want, are you willing to understand, or you just want to show us that you have no interest in knowing God or reconciling.
The invitation is to all men, and it takes a deep study of scriptures with the aim of understanding to unearth the rich treasures of God's Word and promises.bible passages are not mutually exclusive to one another, but rather complementary.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To will is different than to ordain. Yes God is not willing that any should perish but to demonstrate his glorious justice as clearly stated in Romans, it pleased him to ORDAIN some men to death before they had done anything good or bad. So just because he is not willing that any should perish does not mean that he still does not ordain some to perish. For even though he was unwilling that any should perish, he foreordained them to perish by leaving them to their own evil vices such that God is not the cause of their perishment yet he ordained them so.

To ORDAIN simply means to choose or appoint. God wills and wishes that all men would qualify and be saved, but not all men are chosen or ordained. It's similar to a vacancy. In a vacancy, the position is available but on merit i.e there are conditions. Imagine a position/vacancy by a multinational, say chevron, and then applications are allowed from anybody and any country, man or woman, any religion, any tribe, any blood group etc. There is no discrimination as it were. But there is a laid down, pre-defined standard, even before the vacancy was announced. Candidate must be fluent in this, good with this computer package, not less than 18yrs, etc.. This is a predestination as it were. there is an elect already, a standard. those that do not meet that standard, elect, are not chosen/selected. It is also as a kind of graph. A vector or line with direction can be projected. We can foresee, as it were, and say that in forty years time on y-axis, this is where Quantity A will be on x-axis. Its a similar thing that God does with us. He knows us already, because He can see something we do not see. If you've seen fortune-tellers and palm readers, they can do something like seeing a week's time or even some years time. Its like seeing the graph of that person's life.Some bright minded fellow can be in your organisation, and you say stuff like "i see you becoming the head of this department in a few years". But thank God, we are not just lines, we have a will of our own. We are not helpless robots as it were. We can leave the point we are on, in this graph. Once you leave that point, the graph changes. There's a deviation. that's what we can do. Whether you have been ordained to death or life, it is because of something God saw that made Him to choose you. You can change your future. We are created with such power, created in the image of God. Judas Iscariot was also ordained, but He fell and another had to take his place. We can't talk of taking someone's place if he is still in his place. Judas left his path of 'ordaining' on the graph, and so also can anyone.
Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Mar 3:19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into a house.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Read 1 Peter 3:8 then read the below.



NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO HAS SENT ME DRAW HIM - does it sound like you have a part to play in this? If after you have read all the Bible passages below and still believe you have a part to play then I honestly think you may have been blinded by the devil!

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Endeavour to read through the passage and get the context. The same passage says,

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You can't say you truly believe God or have learned from God without accepting Jesus too, and vice versa. they are inseparable.

Psa 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

Job 14:5 You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live, and we are not given a minute longer.

These prove God's omniscience and omnipotence, not predestination as you understand it. That God has determined your time limit does not mean that He will write your exam answers. You still have to write those answers and pass.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

This is a narration. Like in our analogy, saying "Those who were chosen passed" and " those who passed were chosen". They can have the same meaning, and do have the same meaning except we want to infer that they were not given a level playing ground in the test.

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Try to understand it in the light of the analogy i gave earlier about chevron and predefined. God gave them a predestination to be conformed to the image of His Son. Not everybody obeys that at the end of the day. It's not a by force thing. That is what God wants, but that's not what always happens as we know from experience and from the Bible as shown through Judas. He drew the graph and knows all the projections. He has set the path, but man can walk out of the path.

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

Understand this in the light of the graph analogy.

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (i wonder why some fools here mock allah because of this.)

If God will have mercy on who He will have mercy, it's only logically that you look for those set of people that God will have mercy on. The Bible gives the answer. Search the scriptures, the treasures are not on the surface.

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Look at the set of people that God will have mercy on. Go and be merciful, or confess and forsake your sins first, and see if God will not have mercy on you first.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
You may notice that i answered the question posed in your passage. People resist God eveyday. It is just that it has levels, and in the end, God's ultimate will will be fulfilled on earth. All the other passages are similar. take note of this, God invites all and sundry, but not all will be chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. The choosing is based on criteria. The criteria is grace and faith. Grace is what God does, faith is what you do. God has already done His part.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is for you to believe. And true faith involves repentance, a turning away from evil to good. He that comes to God MUST believe.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
If there was no part for the individual, it would be most senseless for Jesus to send His disciples to preach the gospel.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

nuclearboy: @BigBashiru:

The Bible speaks of pre-destination! But look at the larger picture and consider language differences and speech inflections!

Look at this statement - I get up every morning! This implies I will "stand" up every morning! YET that is wrong because what it really means is to "wake up"!

You are assuming (and I have fallen into the exact same trap and questioned the same as you) that God wants some to go to hell when what He is saying is that the door to both heaven and hell are open but the choice is yours just as you could wake and decide not to stand up!

Here's a parallel - using my example, you'll find that usually, people who are "fine" (good health = righteous\forgiven) will wake and stand up (go to heaven) whist the sick (sinful etc) will wake (death) but not stand up (continue to the right destination)!

The choice is not waking but what you do after but that usually is based on what you did prior to even that sleep!

the point is that the guy is very forward and conclusive and at the same time very stubborn.

Most of the scriptures he has quoted is a reference to an expressed intent to do something to a set of people without specifying the individuals in the group.

For instance, a committee of 20 people was predetermined upon to carry out an assignment without chosing the individual that will make up the commitee God went ahead to specify the task this "20" people will do.

That it was Pre-determined that "20" people will be involved to do something how does the task specified affect the yet to be picked individuals?

That another yet to be pick "group" have been predetermined to benefit from the assignment of the 20 people how does that equate to predetermining the individuals that will benefit from the assignment of the 20?

This are statements referencing God's purposes for the future as he works toward it via the messaiah that had come and has other things to do in the future.

There are lots of errors of interpretation all over the place that should make one to be very careful.

Psalms 119:30 I HAVE CHOSEN the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

Been looking for this thread ... bookmarked!

BigBashiru:
Again to cut the long story short, my point is that both the west minster confession and anglican articles are accurate reflections of what the bible says about the destinies of men and that indeed some men cannot accept christ simply because they were not elected. And secondly that the elect and the elect only will be saved and such are few in number. My final point is that the majority of mankind canot be saved, that anybody not elect will burn in everlasting torment to the praise of the glorious justice of God according to the bible.

The Westminster confession can say anything it likes ... it's what the Bible says that matters! I believe Image123 dealt with the matter adequately in his post of 10:12pm On Nov 09, and the subsequent post by nuclearboy puts it in plain simple terms.

Salvation is available for ALL to choose (by freewill) if they so wish! God knows what your choice will be from the beginning!

I did not have chance to reply this earlier. Please see my responses below:

@BigBashiru:

The Bible speaks of pre-destination! But look at the larger picture and consider language differences and speech inflections[b][/b]!

Look at this statement - I get up every morning! This implies I will "stand" up every morning! YET that is wrong because what it really means is to "wake up"!

You are assuming (and I have fallen into the exact same trap and questioned the same as you) that God wants some to go to hell when what He is saying is that the door to both heaven and hell are open but the choice is yours just as you could wake and decide not to stand up!

Here's a parallel - using my example, you'll find that usually, people who are "fine" (good health = righteous\forgiven) will wake and stand up (go to heaven) whist the sick (sinful etc) will wake (death) but not stand up (continue to the right destination)!

The choice is not waking but what you do after but that usually is based on what you did prior to even that sleep!

Again you blaspheme the Holy Ghost by insinuating the interpreters of the Bible may have made mistakes! If there is any one verse that simply says you have no control, it is simple; God said:
"NO MAN can come to the Father UNLESS the Father draw him" - why are you arguing with Bible- please dont hide behind Hebrew and Greek translations as that would mean you are implying God cannot inspire people to make 100% accurate translation of the Bible which is blasphemy.

Now onto a more interesting point; when Paul went about preaching, God to him I HAVE MANY PEOPLE IN THIS CITY meaning God had ONLY particular people in mind:

9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. 10 For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city.” 11 So Paul stayed in Corinth for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

For people quoting me John 3:16, it is clear here that God said I have many people in this city NOT EVERYONE IN THIS CITY WERE GODS PEOPLE to be; so we see here that of course Paul must preach to ALL; however only those the Father draws accept and receive not of their own volition; those who accept accept because they have been so ordained that is why it said in Acts or so: AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED If a man will to be saved, he so wills because had ordained him to so will. Anybody arguing with this is calling God a lier; for you to come, God must draw you as stated in scriptutre. period.
12 While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment. 13 “This man,” they charged, “is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law.”

14 Just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio said to them, “If you Jews were making a complaint about some misdemeanor or serious crime, it would be reasonable for me to listen to you. 15 But since it involves questions about words and names and your own law—settle the matter yourselves. I will not be a judge of such things.” 16 So he drove them off. 17 Then the crowd there turned on Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the proconsul; and Gallio showed no concern whatever.
Priscilla, Aquila and Apollos

18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken.
Remember earlier God told him to continue preaching that he had much people there; Paul stayed there for one and half years; once all the ordained had been saved not of their own freewill, Paul left to another city to again preach that the elect may be saved. Note when Paul was now leaving this particular city, he calls them "brothers and sisters" which were the newly saved. The rest were not referred to as such.

If you are a Bible scholar, you know there is rhema, so let us confirm this with another verse:

"And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED" (no more no less).
English is not the problem here or traslations; it is inability to come to terms with what is precisely written.

oh boi i no argue again oh - Westminster confession or no west minster confession.

una don win.