Enigma: ^^^ On this thread, I have not got involved with the issue of the origin of the Roman Catholic Church. If I have done so, quote me and I will apologise.

2. You did not and still do not know the meaning of "the Bible"; alas even after I gave you a clue that "the Bible" was first used for The Septuagint which of course does not include the New Testament.

Enigma: ^^^ If you know where to look you will see even Wikipedia say that the Septuagint was the first to be called "the bible".

Enigma: ^^^ On this thread, I have not got involved with the issue of the origin of the Roman Catholic Church. If I have done so, quote me and I will apologise.

2. You did not and still do not know the meaning of "the Bible"; alas even after I gave you a clue that "the Bible" was first used for The Septuagint which of course does not include the New Testament.

Kay 17: 1. It became an issue when you tried making a distinction btw Roman Catholic Church and Catholic Church.

Kay 17: 2. Ok, even if I conceded with your Septuagint Bible story, what would it prove? That any book remotely called a Bible is satisfactorily a foundational guide for christianity?

Zikkyy:

No, i don't. i try to make my practice as simple as possible without introducing unnecessary complexities.



I see this as one of those unnecessary complexities. what is my business with purgatory. My brother am interested in the final destination and not some imaginary bus-stop deduced from some ancient practices.

Enigma: ^^^ And a "foundational guide" (in the sense you are using the phrase) of Christianity that was the first to be called "the Bible" is The Septuagint.

I wonder if you know what The Septuagint is and its role in the New Testament.

Kay 17:

Hmmm

So you mean to say, Christians used the Septuagint as THE foundational guide till the Catholics came along??

italo:

Maybe you should try telling this to Jesus. Just look at what he said:

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

And this power didn't end with the apostles...Jesus said "MY CHURCH"...and his Church has not ended. He also said:

italo:
Matt28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

"...TO THE VERY END OF THE AGE..."

Are the apostles still baptizing and teaching?

So who will he "be with" until the end?

Answer: their successors - the Church.

italo:
"Unnecessary complexities?!" What if your "simple practice" is against Gods teaching?

italo:
Jesus said "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you."

Some say eating his "flesh" and "blood" merely means to believe in him.

Others say it is eating "bread" and drinking "wine" which are mere SYMBOLS of his body and blood.

The Catholic Church says it is receiving the ACTUAL body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Holy Eucharist which only remains under the appearance of bread and wine after consecration by a Catholic priest during mass.

What is your "simple practce" about this?

italo:
What you call "unnecessary complexity" was revealed to us by God.

italo:
1Cor 3:15 says: "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Read the passage and tell me where one will be saved as one escaping through fire. Heaven?! There is no fire in heaven. Hell?! No one will be saved from hell. So if not Purgatory, where and how?

italo:
I don't understand you here.

Are you saying you trust the authenticity of the books of the Bible because they were in use by the early Christians...?

Or are you saying you DON'T trust the authenticity of the books of the Bible?

You seem to be confused here.

If acceptance is NOT because of the infallibility of the Church, then what is your acceptance based on?

Enigma: ^^^ Let me let you in on a little secret; keep it under your hat and don't let anyone know!

For most of its early history the Roman Catholic Church itself did not believe in papal infallibility at least. Don't forget that papal infallibility is a key if not the main plank of the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infallibility".

Zikkyy:

Thank you bros. i have difficulty getting maself involved in discussions of this nature cos ma knowledge of church history is not so good and am too lazy to make any serious research.

italo:

You seem to be forgetting that the Church is not just a any group but the household of God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, according to 1Tim 3:15.

How do we know that the Bible is the word of God? Is it Jesus that told us or the Church? If it was Jesus, can you provide the verse where Jesus mentioned the word Bible?

When Peter and Paul had a dispute, where did they turn to as final authority? Was it the Bible or the Church? If it was the Bible, provide the verse that says so.

Reyginus: Statues For Worship
The claim to its origin emanated from:
Exodus 25:18-19
Numbers 21:8-9
1kings 6:23-29
This is a mind-control initiative, as well as a disguised form of idol worship.
Oh! Please don't get angry now, this journey is still far.
Our subconscious mind can be quite assimilating. Once it gets even a glimpse of a thing for a repeated time, we begin to lose sustenance in its absence. Where is the illuminati when you need them?
The idea of images, according to us, is in the power of symbolism and hebrews 13:7. Lies.
Let's x-ray the verses up there for precision.
I) Exodus 25:18-19:' make two winged creatures of hammered gold, one for each of the lid'
The point 'we' miss here is that there was an orderer(God) 25vs1. We sideline that important determinant factor. God, the orderer was giving an order which must be obeyed.
In our case, who ordered our church(catholic) to make statues? A man. Who's man to know better the creators choice of worship? Is it biblically correct? No. So, why practise it?
One thing is certain. For our christainity to have control the bible must be without control.
II) Numbers 21:18-19:' then the lord said to moses.......'. I need not say more. The uncaused one was as usual doing his thing.
Their is a difference between God asking man to do a thing, and man thinking God will like a thing. While former gives life in abundant, the later takes from it.
III) 1 Kings 6:23:'two winged creatures were made of olive wood and placed, each one 4.4metres tall'
It seems no orderer is here. So yeah, the catholic church is justified? No. Don't go that way brother.
The temple was built in accordance with the 'taste' of God. He asked and pressed for it. Definitely, he must have given the manual.
We've been living scripts of men whose interest is not for our interest. Unless we rise and succumb, the church will be succumbed.
The advent of statues came with, emperor constantine, merging christainity with the idolators of the time in other to get a central satisfying religion. Though the goal achieved, the effect disastrous.
Broadly, we still stench of idolatory.
If the goal was to make us remember heroes past, we've achieved more. Check our treasure box: mental slavery, partial idolatory and above all, the big bang for atheism.
I will never venerate an image.

Reyginus: First, I'd like to say that your demand for a bible passage is plainly, to put it rightly, very appaling. It is not proper to ask for a passage when you've not provided any for the already asked.

Reyginus: Let's do it this way italo: for every of your question, you answer one of mine. Also for a start, study, don't just read, the entire chapter one of john

italo: . . . . . . Don't be like Enigma whose number one enemy is truth.

GiantParrot: As someone who hails from a mostly Catholic family, I have been having my own problems with digesting the dogmatic (in my opinion) statements about Mary and the Church in general. I'm even getting disillusioned with all forms of religious formalism. After years of careful observation and introspection leading to freedom from denial, I am beginning to view religion the way it is currently practiced (and even what has being in practice in the past) with great suspicion. It's beginning to look more to me as a pardonable cause for brazen hypocrisy. I do however, still believe in God. Here are my problems with the Roman Catholic Church:

1. Mary is the Mother of God? This statement sounds very misleading to me. When I hear the word: God, I think of a Divine Being that exists from everlasting to everlasting. How can He then have a mother? Did Mary give birth to Jesus' divinity as the statement suggests? If anyone decides to give an answer, I would remind you that I am no longer in the frame of mind to deceive myself anymore. Please give a reasonable explanation.

2. Why is the Pope said to be infallible and a heir to Peter? Was Peter infallible?
3. Where did the term Pontifex Maximus come from?
4. Why is the Pope referred to as Holy Father and Catholic Priests as Fathers? Please read Matthew 23:9 and Luke 17:11
5. Peter did marry. Why do Popes and Priest not get married?
6. I find the murder of Galileo to be very disturbing given that the people who tried him and tortured him were supposed to be the closest to God
7. The inquisitions. There is hardly anything more antithetical to the love and compassion demonstrated by Jesus Christ than the inquisitions.
8. The sales of indulgences so as to provide the means for the construction of St. Peters Basilica.
9. What has the Church done to check molestation of minors? Do those found guilty of molestation get to face the weight of the law?
10. What relationship does God really have with Rome?

Enigma:

What book do you think the Christians who received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost were using?

What book do you think the Christians we read of in the Acts of the Apostles were using?

From which book do you think Old Testament Scriptures were quoted for reference by the authors of the books of the New Testament?