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Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 5:27pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: --- In relation to the Bible what do you think is meant by "a canonical collection of sacred texts"?as regard scripture d merriam webster dictionary defines canon as "an authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture". Accordingly, __canonical collection of sacred text refers to an authoritative list/collection of sacred text. __the canon of the bible refers to the authoritative list of sacred text that make up d bible. I have answer your task. Do well to answer the question. Peace. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 5:37pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
First of all, I tried very hard and for a long time to avoid making the Roman Catholic discussions acrimonious. I pleaded for a long time with your Roman Catholic friends; I even endured their abuses for a long time without return, Instead they got worse and worse. I then warned them, they did not heed the warning. So now, they are seeing my own hand, And actually you are or must/should be aware of the above. Anyway, a small sample follows: First I tried to play nice and even begged ..... From https://www.nairaland.com/1016132/catholic-position-dont-point/3#11815576 Enigma: @ Chukwudi44 From https://www.nairaland.com/1006902/friends-want-me-catholic-thoughts/8#11864468 Enigma: ^^^ You are right I said we should close the argument. Sorry, something came up, well disappeared really, is what caused me to make one more post. lol From https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church/3#12099185 Enigma: In all the recent discussions, I have tried to be polite to individual catholics and very deliberately to maintain a tone of respect for the Roman Catholic Church. Even when chukwudi has thrown some mild personals my way, I have tried to overlook them; even you, specifically, italo have always enjoyed politeness from me in the past. Personally, I would prefer things to remain cordial ---- and mercifully this your post is very very mild so let us keep it cordial. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 5:46pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Then my own tone hardened and I also gave a warning (as below); they continued, sometimes viciously! So now, them fellas are now seeing my own hand - and only small for that matter! From https://www.nairaland.com/1125170/pentecostal-christians-existed-before-roman/4#13397291 Enigma: This is all ridiculous and even a waste of time but I have deliberately chosen to do it this way so that the background to my own actions is clear. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 5:51pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
truthislight:hehehe, you meant with the traditions of the apostles abi? Not minding this instruction:seriously you need to go back and read that passage again. And pray for a little understanding! But he the pope seems to give care to his "traditions" only = infellibility of popes.the word of God doesn't seem have "boundaries" either its from scripture or tradition. It is sharper than a two edged sword. Hehehe |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 5:52pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: be honest with what? That you replied insult with insult, is that commendable? So now, I too am just going to treat you as part of the Roman Catholic dishonest and insult throwing crew. In any event, I even gave you a chance on another occasion; and on that occasion ou showed yourself to be one of them; except I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. You remember when I asked you twice about the fellow who said the Bible was written by Catholics supported by the other who said it was written by Catholics for Catholics? So yes, you guys are dictating how you want to be treated. If you guys choose to maintain the dishonest and pompous approach, I too know how to deal with that. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:00pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: First of all, I tried very hard and for a long time to avoid making the Roman Catholic discussions acrimonious. I pleaded for a long time with your Roman Catholic friends; I even endured their abuses for a long time without return, Instead they got worse and worse. I then warned them, they did not heed the warning. So now, they are seeing my own hand,no need for the long explanation, i get the feeling, you don't feel respected and my catholic brothers seem to be throwing some personal attacks your way, probably emotional residue of some threads i'm not aware of. I've done my bit of cautions most times with chukwudi, italo has d posibility of not using derogatory remark, but clearly, i in no way believe that one wrong justifies another, i imagined you'll rise above the insults. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:01pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: First of all, I tried very hard and for a long time to avoid making the Roman Catholic discussions acrimonious. I pleaded for a long time with your Roman Catholic friends; I even endured their abuses for a long time without return, Instead they got worse and worse. I then warned them, they did not heed the warning. So now, they are seeing my own hand,no need for the long explanation, i get the feeling, you don't feel respected and my catholic brothers seem to be throwing some personal attacks your way, probably emotional residue of some threads i'm not aware of. I've done my bit of cautions most times with chukwudi, italo has d posibility of not using derogatory remark, but clearly, i in no way believe that one wrong justifies another, i imagined you'll rise above the insults. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:01pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: as regard scripture d merriam webster dictionary defines canon as "an authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture". Your answer is incomplete. And you have not performed the other part of the task: what did Jerome refer to as "the canon"? Now just to show you that I could answer your question easily if I choose to: the definition you have given above does not say a canon must be agreed "at a council". Certainly some texts were considered to be "an authoritative list/collection of sacred text" at least before Athanasius in 367 (he said so himself); at the Nicea Council in 325 (otherwise why would they be arguing using books that were not authoritative?); and even well before Nicea as Athanasius suggests, saying "the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine". So what was "the canon" that Athanasius on one hand and Jerome on the other recognised as already existing? |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:05pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: no need for the long explanation, i get the feeling, you don't feel respected and my catholic brothers seem to be throwing some personal attacks your way, probably emotional residue of some threads i'm not aware of. I don't care; please don't preach to me; you have totally lost that privilege today; you will have to earn it again. At the moment, I just treat you as one of the Roman Catholic crew, I'm afraid! |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:05pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: Then my own tone hardened and I also gave a warning (as below); they continued, sometimes viciously! So now, them fellas are now seeing my own hand - and only small for that matter!who am i to judge anothers' servant? If you feel having a good background is a justification, i say, have it your way. I am not your judge. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:07pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
^^^ As I said in my post immediately above yours, all of that is neither here nor there. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:11pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:interesting! In any event, I even gave you a chance on another occasion; and on that occasion ou showed yourself to be one of them; except I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. You remember when I asked you twice about the fellow who said the Bible was written by Catholics supported by the other who said it was written by Catholics for Catholics?and i vaguely remember giving you an answer cordially, if that qualifies me as a pompous, insult throwing catholic then wow! I don't have a word of defense for myself. So yes, you guys are dictating how you want to be treated. If you guys choose to maintain the dishonest and pompous approach, I too know how to deal with that.hehehehe, accusations! Have it your way. Peace. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:20pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
^^ And what did you do about this false accusation? Ubenedictus: hehehe, u are afraid of his question and you resorted to cheap insult. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:29pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:an interesting question. Jerome canon was changing, a proof that it wasn't fixed. At first his old testament canon excluded d books not found in the jewish bible, later he adds them and says no one should blame him because he has decided to follow the decisions of the church. Now just to show you that I could answer your question easily if I choose to: the definition you have given above does not say a canon must be agreed "at a council".it says it should be authoritative! Certainly some texts were considered to be "an authoritative list/collection of sacred text" at least before Athanasius in 367 (he said so himself); at the Nicea Council in 325 (otherwise why would they be arguing using books that were not authoritative?); and even well before Nicea as Athanasius suggests, saying "the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine".hahaha, i imagined you were coming here, athanasius canon was missing many books in both old and new testament just to tell you there was no set canon, before athanasius many books were already under dispute this should clearly show you that the was no authoritative list. So what was "the canon" that Athanasius on one hand and Jerome on the other recognised as already existing?i guess this was rhetorical. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:36pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: .... i guess this was rhetorical. This is the only part of your post that is really on point; and what it shoes is that you do not even understand the question or the task. I am not asking you for a canon that Jerome made. I am not asking you for a canon that Athanasius made. I am asking you for a canon that both Athanasius and Jerome said was already existing. Athanasius said: "the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine" Maybe you want to say that something he said was handed down and divine was not "authoritative" Look when you find ""the canon" that Jerome and Athanasius recognised, let's talk. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:41pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Hehehehe, Enigma:i do not need some sort of previledge to be earned. My atitude towards you have been largely consistent! I will speak on what i think, it is yours to accept or reject! Treat me the way you wish, i won't be bothered, i'll do you the curtesy of smiling at anything you say about me! And by God's grace that won't change me! I'll continue to treat you as you really are to me and that is a brother and consider each word you paste on nl be they insults or good points. Lastly, i wasn't trying to preach to you, just airing my expectations, i still have much peaching to do to myself. Peace |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:43pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: ... athanasius canon was missing many books in both old and new testament ..... Meanwhile, even at the risk of digression, the above is a falsehood! Here is Athanasius' list. 4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second 1 being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth 2 as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second 3 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the Twelve [minor prophets] being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle, one book; afterwards Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 6:48pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: ^^ And what did you do about this false accusation?we spent two pages getting distrated by name calling and cheap insult and questions on Jerome when asked "for a canonical list of sacred text before d 4th century excluding those of individual christians", now that is an interesting point of concern, mayb i do not know your state of mind enough to use word "afriad", but d insults were there and so was d delay. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Nobody: 6:49pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
I do my thingz my own way.I don't bother to see what a mumu thinks |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:51pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: Hehehehe, After some initial skirmishes, I have always treated you with respect and one thing I expect of people I treat with respect is honesty. Anyway, I will be mindful of what you have said and will be happy to reciprocate - within bounds. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 6:55pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: we spent two pages getting distrated by name calling and cheap insult and questions on Jerome when asked "for a canonical list of sacred text before d 4th century excluding those of individual christians", now that is an interesting point of concern, mayb i do not know your state of mind enough to use word "afriad", but d insults were there and so was d delay. You see now --- even when I have just said I will try and reciprocate. OK the long and short of it is that your post was a lie or at least it contained a lie. You said that instead of answering Kay17's question, I was afraid and insulted him. That is a lie because my post that you referred to was not directed to Kay17; it was directed to italo who had contributed nothing but thrown an insult. You realised very clearly that my post was directed at italo and instead of you to do the right and Christian thing you started to vaccillate. I guess because italo is one of your fellow Roman Catholics; so we can close eyes to that. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 7:30pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Hehehehe, ok i get the picture. Enigma:you certainly wish to drag me into discussing the development of scripture. I see you quoted athanasius' use the word "handed down", which ofcourse means the "canon" he is teaching was given to him. Again it is also interesting to note that that phase doesn't answer the question kay asked. A canon as handed to athanasuis in d 4th century, that doesn't in any way answer the question d list of sacred text before d 4th century. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 7:35pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:ok! I made a mistake, the only books missing are d deuterocanonical ones. Sorry, and thanks for the correction. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 7:58pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
chukwudi44: I do my thingz my own way.I don't bother to see what a mumu thinksoga hold it oh, if i were not busy at the moment, i would have open a thread for all the people you've insulted and believe me they will give you a thorough mouth washing. Better reconsider how you address people. Follow peace with all men. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 8:02pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma: Enigma:cool |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 8:04pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: Hehehehe, ok i get the picture. you certainly wish to drag me into discussing the development of scripture. No, I do not wish to drag you into anything. Remember I was discussing this matter with Kay17 before you jumped in. Ubenedictus: I see you quoted athanasius' use the word "handed down", which ofcourse means the "canon" he is teaching was given to him. Again it is also interesting to note that that phase doesn't answer the question kay asked. A canon as handed to athanasuis in d 4th century, that doesn't in any way answer the question d list of sacred text before d 4th century. You are making a mistake here and you are making a wrong and misleading presentation of that Athanasius quote. Where did he say the canon was handed down "to him in the 4th century"? Here again is what he said, read it again and when you understand it let's talk: "the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine" Maybe it will help to referesh your memory of another part of the quote: the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the Fathers So, do you want to try again? Ubenedictus: ok! I made a mistake, the only books missing are d deuterocanonical ones. For that matter, you still need to read his Old Testament list --- again --- and carefully. And if all we have was Athanasius' canon in 367 AD ---- that alone shows that it is a LIE what the Roman Catholics claim that they "compiled" the Bible yada yada! |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 8:07pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Meanwhile, I hope you notice a slightly earlier post of mine in which I said one of your own posts contained a lie i.e. about what I said and who I said it to. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 8:10pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:i didnt say the bolded! That is a lie because my post that you referred to was not directed to Kay17; it was directed to italo who had contributed nothing but thrown an insult.the truth is i assumed it was refering to italo because it came directly after italo's accusation. I didnt say you insulted kay, nor myself, dat particular post says you didnt answer the question and decided to go with the cheap insults. I may be off by a mile on the "afraid" part. But the part on d insults are there. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 8:14pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:this doesn't relate to who compiled d bible, d point so far has been kay's question, which to a large extent is unanswered. The interesting thing though is that those church fathers can't be called protestants. They are catholics. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 8:15pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
The posts are there; I'm not quoting anything again. I see your post above as wriggling instead of doing the honourable thing. I am even minded to end discussing with you here and now. Afterall I was discussing with Kay17 originally, and I guess he'd be back at some point. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Enigma(m): 8:17pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Ubenedictus: this doesn't relate to who compiled d bible, d point so far has been kay's question, which to a large extent is unanswered. The interesting thing though is that those church fathers can't be called protestants. They are catholics. Cheap and unworthy nonsense. Whoever said they were "protestants"? All I have ever said is that they were not Roman Catholics. That is the pretense and false impression that the Roman Catholics have been spreading to hoodwink people --- especially in the Western world. |
Re: My Problem With Catholism-An Introspection by Ubenedictus(m): 8:36pm On Apr 13, 2013 |
Enigma:i remember, and i'm unaware of d laws that prevent me from "jumping in" on discusions. You are making a mistake here and you are making a wrong and misleading presentation of that Athanasius quote.hehehe, d mocking "do you want to try again" was interesting. I put it to you that the canon of the new tes wasn't handed on from the apostles, it was developed by bishops over the centuries till it was set at d councils. St Athanasuis only had the books that were collected by his predecesors and transmitted as canonical. What he had was handed to him as he ascends the bishopric. For that matter, you still need to read his Old Testament list --- again --- and carefully.hehehe, athanasuis would have no problem addressing himself as catholic. Peace |
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