Strong ko, weak ni.  Weak is probably more appropriate, otherwise you wouldn't be whining so much about the structure of marriage.  I don't think I have met too many men who jump into marriage with a mindset that their wife will become their loveslave.  Next thing you know you begin calling me a woman hater just because I refuse to share your shallow ideas  .      

If you could actually put together some rather intelligent points instead of disbursing fallacious strawmans all over your post, then maybe you could be worth having an argument with.  Everything else so far has been speculations turned into name calling.   Your emotions are causing you to crumble.

Feministic:

It seems I have misunderstood you then, and I apologize. I agree, mutual respect is very important in ANY relationship.

, and what subject would that be?

why its hard for some women to find a man, or why we are equal, or why peole divorce, u know the usual and i don't have the enery for that. i'll reserve it for another day.

Strong ko, weak ni. Weak is probably more appropriate, otherwise you wouldn't be whining so much about the structure of marriage.

"Whining?". Because, I have noticed a reoccurring trend that has preyed on women for quite some time? Right. Kind of like how black people were "whining" about slavery and segregation. The oppressor always finds it easy to ignore the obvious.

I don't think I have met too many men who jump into marriage with a mindset that their will become their loveslave.

It's not as obvious as you think it might be, are you telling me that you have never met a man that has had "requirements" for a wife? Or has demanding non reciprocated respect from his wife? This thread was not titled " why do most educated women have no respect?" the key word was submit. And I only respond to what I think pertains to the issue, instead of going off into some sexist jargon.

Next thing you know you begin calling me a woman hater just because I refuse to share your shallow ideas

No, I'm calling you a woman hater because when I respectfully described an opposing opinion, you opted NOT to stick to the issue but to make an offensive generalization, which reveals your thoughts on any other woman who does so.

Feministic:


"Whining?". Because, I have noticed a reoccurring trend that has preyed on women for quite some time? Right. Kind of like how black people were "whining" about slavery and segregation. The oppressor always finds it easy to ignore the obvious.

Here you go dissecting my post like a dead insect. Yes you began your whining a long time ago but it didn't catch my attention until now. You even whined in the post you dispatched to me. Talking about being this big bad strong whatever as if someone questioned your strength.
Why do I have to be an opressor just because I'm male. Why not get over your hunger for hatred? Feed it to those who want it.

It's not as obvious as you think it might be, are you telling me that you have never met a man that has had "requirements" for a wife? Or has demanding non reciprocated respect from his wife? This thread was not titled " why do most educated women have no respect?" the key word was submit. And I only respond to what I think pertains to the issue, instead of going off into some sexist jargon.

Men have requirements for wives, wives have requirement for their men. It's double-layered but you are too biased against men to include that in your comment. I haven't come across men who demand non-reciprocated respect from their wives. Those type of men should not be sought by women who value their worthy anyways. Why would you bother pursuing a man that cannot respect you? It's not like all men refuse to respect their women. You don 't have to be a feminist to earn respect from your husband.
What about submit? Perhaps you are putting to much focus on the word that you forget that it doesn't necessarily mean you get stripped of your worth as a woman.

No, I'm calling you a woman hater because when I decided to respectfully described an opposing opinion, you opted NOT to stick to the issue but to make an offensive generalization, which reveals your thoughts on any other woman who does so.

Respectfully? Give me a break. There was nothing respectful about throwing men under the bus like that. You have generalized a whole lot, pouted too much, complained about men being offensive oppressors . . .
I responded to you like that for those reasons. I don't attack women or hate them, but I have a problem with women who think all men are woman-haters.

If you could actually put together some rather intelligent points instead of disbursing fallacious strawmans all over your post, then maybe you could be worth having an argument with. Everything else so far has been speculations turned into name calling. Your emotions are causing you to crumble

Wow, strange words from someone who reccomended a sex change to some one he doesn't know.

I have made my points, your choice to ignore them is not my fault or my problem.

"Emotions" eh? another generalization. You're not emotional for insulting me but I'm emotional for having an opinion?

I don't understand if you really do have an opinion and you think that it's superior to mine in some way then prove it. I'm always open to new ideas.

you 2 are still arguing.

Feministic:

Wow, strange words from someone who reccomended a sex change to some one he doesn't know.

I have made my points, your choice to ignore them is not my fault or my problem.

"Emotions" eh? another generalization. You're not emotional for insulting me but I'm emotional for having an opinion?

I don't understand if you really do have an opinion and you think that it's superior to mine in some way then prove it. I'm always open to new ideas.

LOOL!! You have to admit that was a good one wasn't it?    
I can't say I'm too sorry that I perceived you that way.  I did it after reading through your obsession with equality.  That's why I recommended you become a man if you really feel like men are in the superior position.  It could put you in a position to be the superior one, so by that I believe it was a good suggestion.  You're emotional for beginning the insults.  It's too feminine in nature (name calling especially) .   Women folk (sorry to generalize) have this knack for throwing haymakers when they feel like someone is challenging their thoughts.  Men do it too but just not as much as women.  I won't bother to prove to you that my opinion is superior to yours because that is completely pointless.  Opinions are merely opinions.  Everyone is entitled to their own yucky opinions.  

naija_diva:

you 2 are still arguing.

Hi! It's not like that o . We are just exchanging ideas. I like your profile picture.

HCH3COO:

Hi! It's not like that o . We are just exchanging ideas. I like your profile picture.

Right. you're always "exchaning ideas" with people.

HCH3COO:

Hi! It's not like that o . We are just exchanging ideas. I like your profile picture.

thanks, i need to change it though.

naija_diva:

Right. you're always "exchaning ideas" with people.

thanks, i need to change it though.

Hey, abeg o. There's nothing wrong with an old-fashioned system of communication within a group of people.
Besides, you were here exchanging your ideas too .

you are welcome.

@Feminist,
It's been real but I have to go now.

HCH3COO:

Hey, abeg o. There's nothing wrong with an old-fashioned system of communication within a group of people.
Besides, you were here exchanging your ideas too .

you are welcome.

okay

HCH3COO:

@Feminist,
It's been real but I have to go now.

make sure u stay out trouble.

Here you go dissecting my post like a dead insect. Yes you began your whining a long time ago but it didn't catch my attention until now. You even whined in the post you dispatched to me. Talking about being this big bad strong whatever as if someone questioned your strength.
Why do I have to be an opressor just because I'm male. Why not get over your hunger for hatred? Feed it to those who want it.

You're not an oppressor because you're male, and when did I ever mention hating anyone?

Men have requirements for wives, wives have requirement for their men. It's double-layered but you are too biased against men to include that in your comment. I haven't come across men who demand non-reciprocated respect from their wives. Those type of men should not be sought by women who value their worthy anyways. Why would you bother pursuing a man that cannot respect you? It's not like all men refuse to respect their women. You don 't have to be a feminist to earn respect from your husband.
What about submit? Perhaps you are putting to much focus on the word that you forget that it doesn't necessarily mean you get stripped of your worth as a woman.

You're right on both men and women having different requirements for each other, but maybe I should have made myself more clear (my fault) , I was referring to the obvious standards that most men and women are limited to. Not every woman has to be a housewife and not every man has to be a bread winner. Not that I'm saying that you mentioned that but I am saying that the standard still exists and hasn't been very flexible. I'm not sure what your definition of "respect" is so I'm not going to touch those comments. You may want to try looking up the definition of a feminist because we are not all man haters, and FYI I didn't become one to earn respect, I became one because I had respect. And as for the word "submission" if was the focus of the thread! So naturally, I focused on it. And I never said that it stripped women of their worth, I was referring to the more than obvious lack of flexiblity women have in their roles due to the need to be "submissive".

Respectfully? Give me a break. There was nothing respectful about throwing men under the bus like that. You have generalized a whole lot, pouted too much, complained about men being offensive oppressors . . .
I responded to you like that for those reasons. I don't attack women or hate them, but I have a problem with women who think all men are woman-haters.

Again, I never mentioned anything about hating men. I was responding only to what I read and why are you pretending like my comments justify your responses? I would have understood if you have said something that actually challenged my idea , but that whole "feminists want to be men" bullshit is tired, old and over played. And I'm sure you don't attack or hate women, just the ones that challenge your ideas, right?

Feministic:



You're not an oppressor because you're male, and when did I ever mention hating anyone?

You're right on both men and women having different requirements for each other, but maybe I should have made myself more clear (my fault) , I was referring to the obvious standards that most men and women are limited to. Not every woman has to be a housewife and not every man has to be a bread winner. Not that I'm saying that you mentioned that but I am saying that the standard still exists and hasn't been very flexible. I'm not sure what your definition of "respect" is so I'm not going to touch those comments. You may want to try looking up the definition of a feminist because we are not all man haters, and FYI I didn't become one to earn respect, I became one because I had respect. And as for the word "submission" if was the focus of the thread! So naturally, I focused on it. And I never said that it stripped women of their worth, I was referring to the more than obvious lack of flexiblity women have in their roles due to the need to be "submissive".

Oti o, a feminist said I'm right?  Who woulda thunk it! The standards have been flexible in recent years.  Women are allowed as much freedom as men where I am.  Sure there is a type of glass-ceiling that prevents many women from attaining certain goals (like reaching the top at a prominent male-dominated workplace) as fast as some men, it still doesn't mean they are not allowed to do so.  The women with the will to do it usually go for it no matter what obstacles are in the way.  We see more and more women coming out to flaunt their independence, strength, glamour, you name it, everyday.  Are you going to say that they're living in some sort of different system or that they're exceptions to the rule    Don't use submission in marriage as an excuse not to be flexible.

Again, I never mentioned anything about hating men. I was responding only to what I read and why are you pretending like my comments justify your responses? I would have understood if you have said something that actually challenged my idea , but that whole "feminists want to be men" bullshit is tired, old and over played. And I'm sure you don't attack or hate women, just the ones that challenge your ideas, right?

Your comments do not justify some of my responses but they propelled me to say the things I did.  you see men as the enemy.  The man-bashing is too much.  Put a lead on it.  I did challenge your ideas.  Isn't that my reason for responding the way I did?  I would have kept quiet, pretending it was okay but I didn't.

I love women who challenge my ideas.  I find it sexy.  Forces me to think    .  Hopefully you can challenge my ideas with good logic, not by generalizing.

Oti o, a feminist said I'm right? Who woulda thunk it! The standards have been flexible in recent years. Women are allowed as much freedom as men where I am. Sure there is a type of glass-ceiling that prevents many women from attaining certain goals (like reaching the top at a prominent male-dominated workplace) as fast as some men, it still doesn't mean they are not allowed to do so. The women with the will to do it usually go for it no matter what obstacles are in the way. We see more and more women coming out to flaunt their independence, strength, glamour, you name it, everyday. Are you going to say that they're living in some sort of different system or that they're exceptions to the rule Huh Don't use submission in marriage as an excuse not to be flexible.

LOL, Yes, even us feminists can agree with other people . Let me make it clear once more that rb]real feminists don't hate men[/b], but we do recognize that submission is another blockade on the path to true gender equality;and I am not denying the progress that women and men have made, I never said ALL women and men were living a rigid lifestyle, but I think denying that most do is unrealistic. I have seen many women that work hard at their jobs and are still expected to fulfill their "role" as the submissive wife when they come home. Male submission is never brought up or suggested, we need to recognize that the only way that the marriage system can be saved is through compromise on both parties.

Your comments do not justify some of my responses but they propelled me to say the things I did. you see men as the enemy. The man-bashing is too much. Put a lead on it. I did challenge your ideas. Isn't that my reason for responding the way I did? I would have kept quiet, pretending it was okay but I didn't.

If my comments come off as man bashing to you then I apologize, but to deny that while m[b]en are not a superior gender ,yet they still are a dominant one [/b]is, once again, unrealistic. In the legal system, health system, work place and society in general women are constantly being bashed or mocked for it. When a woman questions authority or the "norm" people will call it "whining" or "bitching" in order to belittle our opinions, also try to note the recent beauty standards and physical and emotional strains they have been posing on women in general; then compare it to the standards that many people set for men.

Feministic:

LOL, Yes, even us feminists can agree with other people . Let me make it clear once more that rb]real feminists don't hate men[/b], but we do recognize that submission is another blockade on the path to true gender equality;and I am not denying the progress that women and men have made, I never said ALL women and men were living a rigid lifestyle, but I think denying that most do is unrealistic. I have seen many women that work hard at their jobs and are still expected to fulfill their "role" as the submissive wife when they come home. Male submission is never brought up or suggested, we need to recognize that the only way that the marriage system can be saved is through compromise on both parties.

It really comes as a shock to me that you agreed with a guy. Real feminists don't hate men, they just go on rants about men controlling their lives, men being misogynists, men being oppressive, and so forth. Being a female topdog at a top company as a CEO does not automatically assign you a right to lead your home. If you are in that type of family and your husband allows you to be the authority over him, kudos to you. Being a good wife isn't all dependent on the type of job you have. I don't see how a wife should feel too bloated to give her husband his dues because she's making more money than he is. Marriage is usually based on compromise between a husband and his wife. Men would rather do somethings while women would much rather do other things. A man is not biologically programmed to nurture his kids, women are geared more towards those types of marital duties. Men take care of their kids too but the women do it better, in my opinion.

If my comments come off as man bashing to you then I apologize, but to deny that while m[b]en are not a superior gender ,yet they still are a dominant one [/b]is, once again, unrealistic.

It's okay. Apology accepted. We have no choice but to get along with each other. I don't buy into the concept of total superiority but there are aspects where the man is - - i don't like to use the word superior - - where the man should be the one to call, just like there are other aspects where the woman is the best for the job.

In the legal system, health system, work place and society in general women are constantly being bashed or mocked for it. When a woman questions authority or the "norm" people will call it "whining" or "bitching" in order to belittle our opinions, also try to note the recent beauty standards and physical and emotional strains they have been posing on women in general; then compare it to the standards that many people set for men.

Men call it whining when it becomes too routine, despite the fact that women do have as much (maybe even more) protection from the law as men do. Men call it whining when women keep focusing on the words 'superiority and submissive' when thinking of marriage. It takes more for a woman to get where she is, I admit; but, with hardwork almost anything is possible. Double standards exist everywhere. Some favor men just like some favor women.

It really comes as a shock to me that you agreed with a guy. Real feminists don't hate men, they just go on rants about men controlling their lives, men being misogynists, men being oppressive, and so forth. Being a female topdog at a top company as a CEO does not automatically assign you a right to lead your home. If you are in that type of family and your husband allows you to be the authority over him, kudos to you. Being a good wife isn't all dependent on the type of job you have. I don't see how a wife should feel too bloated to give her husband his dues because she's making more money than he is. Marriage is usually based on compromise between a husband and his wife. Men would rather do somethings while women would much rather do other things. A man is not biologically programmed to nurture his kids, women are geared more towards those types of marital duties. Men take care of their kids too but the women do it better, in my opinion.

It may come as a shock to you because most men have preconceived notions about feminists that are based on stereotypes and isolated incidents. Society as a whole is controlled by a male power structure (government/media/etc), pretending its not true won't make it any different. Being a professional woman should earn you respect, because as you mentioned, it is harder for women to become successful in this world, and if she decides that she wants to work all day and still come home to cook and clean and all that, then cheers for her. But what of women that say "No" to that? They always receive backlash for not wanting to conform to society's standards and are usually given "Ballbuster" status. A man in control of a household is "normal" while a women in control of one is "crazy". And as for giving a husband his "dues", I'm not really sure what you are talking about. I also would like to make it clear that I am in no way considering Motherhood to be submissive and I will admit that the intimacies of motherhood will ensure a woman's closer relationship with her children, but being a woman does not require you to be a mother and being a man does not mean that you want to have authority. There are men in this world that see their wives as equals, or like to stay at home with their children while their wife works, they're not "bad" or "weird" , they are just different and aware that families can be different. And no denying that there are women who love to stay home with their children and are domesticated, this is fine to, but it shouldn't be our only option. Women and Men are dynamic, so why can't the roles be to?

It's okay. Apology accepted. We have no choice but to get along with each other. I don't buy into the concept of total superiority but there are aspects where the man is - - i don't like to use the word superior - - where the man should be the one to call, just like there are other aspects where the woman is the best for the job.
Quote

I think that qualities change with people. Men and Women are different and should be allowed to explore all options. Some women are more organized and better with bill paying, making money, etc and are not domesticated. while they're men that are very domestic and love to be with their children more than being in some office. This is what feminism is about : it recognizes that gender roles don't just hurt women, they confine men as well.

Men call it whining when it becomes too routine, despite the fact that women do have as much (maybe even more) protection from the law as men do. Men call it whining when women keep focusing on the words 'superiority and submissive' when thinking of marriage. It takes more for a woman to get where she is, I admit; but, with hardwork almost anything is possible. Double standards exist everywhere. Some favor men just like some favor women.

Maybe it becomes "routine" because it's still happening. And women "whine" when men focus on words like "authority" and age old standards that don't apply to the changing times. Hmmm are you referring to law abroad or law in nigeria? Because I think that most laws in nigeria are not designed to protect women as individuals. I will agree with that last bit though, the truth is that with these rigid roles in place, women and men have to play strange games to get what they want in life.

'submit' you know

It may come as a shock to you because most men have preconceived notions about feminists that are based on stereotypes and isolated incidents.

Where did you get your “most men” statistic from?  From my observations, most men conceive their notions about feminists based on their overdeveloped sensitivity to being equal, so much that they turn men into enemies that oppose their progress.

Society as a whole is controlled by a male power structure (government/media/etc), pretending its not true won't make it any different. Being a professional woman should earn you respect, because as you mentioned, it is harder for women to become successful in this world, and if she decides that she wants to work all day and still come home to cook and clean and all that, then cheers for her.

If I mentioned that it is hard for women to be successful in society, I think I also hinted that it is just as hard for men to be successful in society as well.  We don’t just steal our keeps, we earn our keep.  The quantity, or type, of success depends on who you ask.    I mentioned the law granting us equal freedom and protection.

But what of women that say "No" to that? They always receive backlash for not wanting to conform to society's standards and are usually given "Ballbuster" status. A man in control of a household is "normal" while a women in control of one is "crazy".

I would say it’s crazy for a woman to be in control of the marriage because when I think of control, I visualize an alarm going off in my head thinking this woman thinks she can be the boss over me.  As a Christian I believe the man is the head of the household so that’s my reason for being as biased in that regards.  If you are an oriental woman, or say a Caucasian woman who believes in this big concept of independence and equality, good for you; find a man who will let you dominate him.   You don’t really need a man to acquire your independence, because he is most likely going to be a backbreaker.  We men have egos that prevent us from just taking the backseat.  Masculinity is not in support of that concept.

And as for giving a husband his "dues", I'm not really sure what you are talking about. I also would like to make it clear that I am in no way considering Motherhood to be submissive and I will admit that the intimacies of motherhood will ensure a woman's closer relationship with her children, but being a woman does not require you to be a mother and being a man does not mean that you want to have authority. There are men in this world that see their wives as equals, or like to stay at home with their children while their wife works, they're not "bad" or "weird" , they are just different and aware that families can be different.

Being a woman does not require you to be a mother.  Being a mother is a choice.  If you wish to be a mother you should know that it comes with responsibilities which require you to cater for your children.  Women are more likely to have custody over their children because society has this consensus that women are better caregivers to children than men.  Unless there’s strong evidence suggesting against giving custody to the woman, the woman would usually get the kids.

And no denying that there are women who love to stay home with their children and are domesticated, this is fine to, but it shouldn't be our only option. Women and Men are dynamic, so why can't the roles be to?

Never was it said that it was your only option.  Societal flexibility has allowed women, for many years now, to work while still bearing the load of motherhood.  I don’t see a reason why a mother who cares about her children should be fussing about going home after work to look after her kids.  Men and women are brought up differently, have different genetic makeups, is that not one of the most important reasons we have different, roles to fulfill?  Few deflections here and there by people who choose not to follow the established path does not mean we should mess up the order of things. This thirld-world mentality of copying the west is basically pushing our African women out of their comfort zone.

This is what feminism is about : it recognizes that gender roles don't just hurt women, they confine men as well.

If you know that gender roles don’t just hurt women, they hurt men too; why not pay attention to both sides?  If you think society is at fault then blame society as a whole.  Society is composed of both men and women.  You believe that society has put men in control of some things you would like, just as society has put women in control of some things certain men would like to do.  We can either put up with it, shut up, or change it.  If you opt to change it, do it wisely.

Nobody is superior in a relationship its only a shallow thinker that reckons a man
should dominate . I'd personally prefer to marry a lady who is smarter so
long the relationship is filled with happiness, well am nt sayin i'd want a woman dat wont
listen to me but i stil think both husband and wife should enjoy the power of dominance in a relationship.

dudu19:

Nobody is superior in a relationship its only a shallow thinker that reckons a man
should dominate . I'd personally prefer to marry a lady who is smarter so
long the relationship is filled with happiness, well am nt sayin i'd want a woman that wont
listen to me but i stil think both husband and wife should enjoy the power of dominance in a relationship.

don't know how much that made me smile

Nobody is superior in a relationship its only a shallow thinker that reckons a man
should dominate . I'd personally prefer to marry a lady who is smarter so
long the relationship is filled with happiness, well am nt sayin i'd want a woman that wont
listen to me but i stil think both husband and wife should enjoy the power of dominance in a relationship.

Right on!

Where did you get your “most men” statistic from? From my observations, most men conceive their notions about feminists based on their overdeveloped sensitivity to being equal, so much that they turn men into enemies that oppose their progress.

If you are unwilling to treat someone as an equal, then how can they be your friend? much less want your genuine progress?

If I mentioned that it is hard for women to be successful in society, I think I also hinted that it is just as hard for men to be successful in society as well. We don’t just steal our keeps, we earn our keep. The quantity, or type, of success depends on who you ask. I mentioned the law granting us equal freedom and protection.

If it were "just as hard" for men as it is for women don't you think there would be less sexual harassment claims? Less claims of unequal pay? While women are now a huge part of the workforce abroad, there is still alot of sexism that they suffer that most men have to deal with. The law where? In America or Nigeria? For America there is still unequal pay, tons of perfectly legal sexism in the nations military, and the constant threat to a woman's right to choose. As for Nigeria? Well, sadly, I think the sexism there is more than obvious.

I would say it’s crazy for a woman to be in control of the marriage because when I think of control, I visualize an alarm going off in my head thinking this woman thinks she can be the boss over me. As a Christian I believe the man is the head of the household so that’s my reason for being as biased in that regards. If you are an oriental woman, or say a Caucasian woman who believes in this big concept of independence and equality, good for you; find a man who will let you dominate him. You don’t really need a man to acquire your independence, because he is most likely going to be a backbreaker. We men have egos that prevent us from just taking the backseat. Masculinity is not in support of that concept.

Ah, a Christian? That explains much. You shouldn't have to be white or any other race in order to want to be treated as an equal. And just because some men have huge inexplicable ego's doesn't mean they all do, this is where gender roles take their toll on men.

Being a woman does not require you to be a mother. Being a mother is a choice. If you wish to be a mother you should know that it comes with responsibilities which require you to cater for your children. Women are more likely to have custody over their children because society has this consensus that women are better caregivers to children than men. Unless there’s strong evidence suggesting against giving custody to the woman, the woman would usually get the kids.

In America that is, but in Nigeria it is more typical for the children to remain with the father, even if there is evidence that he is not a suitable caregiver.

Never was it said that it was your only option. Societal flexibility has allowed women, for many years now, to work while still bearing the load of motherhood. I don’t see a reason why a mother who cares about her children should be fussing about going home after work to look after her kids. Men and women are brought up differently, have different genetic makeups, is that not one of the most important reasons we have different, roles to fulfill? Few deflections here and there by people who choose not to follow the established path does not mean we should mess up the order of things. This thirld-world mentality of copying the west is basically pushing our African women out of their comfort zone.

I'm sure that there are men that can understand that a woman can care for her children ans still be tired when they come home from work, we are people! We shouldn't be expected to do it all just because a man doesn't want to step out of his designated "role. The "established path" and the "order of things"? I'm going to assume this is more Christian talk. Another trend I have been noticing in africans is a tendency to pick and chose which parts a of other cultures to follow; thoughts on gender equality: no, Christianity: yes; fashion trends?: yes, ideas that challenge the "norm": no. I don't think that it's african women that are being pushed out of their comfort zone, I think that it's african men. A woman can still hold on to her culture and still have the sense to root out ideas that worked back then and ideas that apply to now.

If you know that gender roles don’t just hurt women, they hurt men too; why not pay attention to both sides? If you think society is at fault then blame society as a whole. Society is composed of both men and women. You believe that society has put men in control of some things you would like, just as society has put women in control of some things certain men would like to do. We can either put up with it, shut up, or change it. If you opt to change it, do it wisely.

I do pay attention to both sides, thats why I mentioned it. There are some women that question a man that is domesticated and wants to stay at home, etc but that is usually because of a criteria set up by men. Women need to explore their options without fear of the inevitable backlash, we are better than we were 100 years a go because someone was willing to stand up. If people of african descent had accepted segregation and colonization as the "natural order of things" as whites wanted them to, where would we all be today?

Feministic:


If you are unwilling to treat someone as an equal, then how can they be your friend? much less want your genuine progress?

All men are created equal I know that.  You can be a friend to anybody because you are a human being too. My boss is my boss at work, I have to take orders from  him there but we can still be friends.  This doesn't mean that I am any less of a human being than he is.  It just means I recognize his hierarchy in the working environment.
Says who that real men feel that women are inferior to them?

If it were "just as hard" for men as it is for women don't you think there would be less sexual harassment claims? Less claims of unequal pay?the sexism there is more than obvious.

Thus the reason for double standards.  Do you really think men would come out to say that they have been sexually harassed?  He doesn't want to be seen as a weak gay.  The law doesn't dictate that women should be paid fewer than men.  The nature of your job determines how much you get paid.   If you work at a place where a guy lifts 50 boxes a day compared to your 30 similar boxes, he deserves to be paid more, jobs take these things into account.  Needless to say that if you work at a hair salon a lady is usually more desirable by women to do their hair while the man may get a few customers here and there, so tell me does not the lady deserve to make more than the man who doesn't get as much customers as she does?  I know about the stereotypes that prevent women from making as much as men in certain types of industries.  I don't support these stereotypes, but they are much better than they were many years ago, so improvements are being made. 

Ah, a Christian? That explains much. You shouldn't have to be white or any other race in order to want to be treated as an equal. And just because some men have huge inexplicable ego's doesn't mean they all do, this is where gender roles take their toll on men.

Explains much?  I hope it doesn't explain to you that you have the authority to label me a misogynist, elitist, hyprocrite like you did with those on that other thread?   It would be completely untrue.  I am not a christian who's asking that women be seen as inferior beings that should be dominated.  Christianity doesn't teach me that.

In America that is, but in Nigeria it is more typical for the children to remain with the father, even if there is evidence that he is not a suitable caregiver.

Maybe?  But where is the proof?  I didn't see it when I lived there.  There wasn't that many divorces flying around.  Just kidding! I believe it is like that because if you dig deep into Nigerian society, the man is the working parent while the mom is a stay-at-home  housewife. 

I'm sure that there are men that can understand that a woman can care for her children ans still be tired when they come home from work, we are people! We shouldn't be expected to do it all just because a man doesn't want to step out of his designated "role.

Men don't just go out of their way to not "step out of their designated role" .  If my wife comes home from work feeling tired, while I'm sitting there watching football with the kids needing to eat, I don't mind feeding them.  It doesn't make me any less of a man. But at some point when it's becoming too heavy you have to draw the line and say, look woman enough of this.

I don't think that it's african women that are being pushed out of their comfort zone, I think that it's african men. A woman can still hold on to her culture and still have the sense to root out ideas that worked back then and ideas that apply to now.

Just as a man can hold on to his culture and have the sense to use what he believes will work for him.  African women too are being pushed out of their comfort zone.  Good example is if you look under the romance section, there are still quite a few women who will not marry a man without a job, because they feel like it is the duty of a man to be the breadwinner of his house, and I agree with them.

I do pay attention to both sides, thats why I mentioned it. There are some women that question a man that is domesticated and wants to stay at home, etc but that is usually because of a criteria set up by men. Women need to explore their options without fear of the inevitable backlash, we are better than we were 100 years a go because someone was willing to stand up. If people of african descent had accepted segregation and colonization as the "natural order of things" as whites wanted them to, where would we all be today?

I know you mentioned it but you were still blind to it.   What you did was something called "honorable mention".  You spoke of them then went ahead to spear them.  Slavery was not the natural order of things, it was a forced occurence with awful repercussions.  This is not as bas as you would like to make it seem.

I don't think too many civilized men focus heavily on going into a marriage to enslave their wives. Marriage is about a union to strengthen a bond with you, your wife, your kids to live satisfying lives. Good men are willing to support their wives in times of difficulty.

All men are created equal I know that. You can be a friend to anybody because you are a human being too. My boss is my boss at work, I have to take orders from him there but we can still be friends. This doesn't mean that I am any less of a human being than he is. It just means I recognize his hierarchy in the working environment.
Says who that real men feel that women are inferior to them?

If all people are created equally than why can't all people be encouraged to live the life they want without worrying about society's backlash? Did you just comparing a working relationship with and romantic one? I am wondering if you are claiming that their is a heiarchy in relationships, if so, I just don't see why that is neccesarry, when you can admit that someone is not better than you, then why not have equality? Your boss earned the right to be your boss, what does a man do to earn the right to be the head of the householf?

Thus the reason for double standards. Do you really think men would come out to say that they have been sexually harassed? He doesn't want to be seen as a weak gay. The law doesn't dictate that women should be paid fewer than men. The nature of your job determines how much you get paid. If you work at a place where a guy lifts 50 boxes a day compared to your 30 similar boxes, he deserves to be paid more, jobs take these things into account. Needless to say that if you work at a hair salon a lady is usually more desirable by women to do their hair while the man may get a few customers here and there, so tell me does not the lady deserve to make more than the man who doesn't get as much customers as she does? I know about the stereotypes that prevent women from making as much as men in certain types of industries. I don't support these stereotypes, but they are much better than they were many years ago, so improvements are being made.

No, there are women that get paid less for doing the same job in the same building, and from what I see men are being given just as much respect and money from people in the beauty industry as women do. Improvements are being made, but only because people in the past fought for it, it wasn't some random spark of social evolution, the process was slow and for some, painful.

Explains much? I hope it doesn't explain to you that you have the authority to label me a misogynist, elitist, hyprocrite like you did with those on that other thread? It would be completely untrue. I am not a christian who's asking that women be seen as inferior beings that should be dominated. Christianity doesn't teach me that.[/[/b]quote]
No comment

There wasn't that many divorces flying around. Just kidding! I believe it is like that because if you dig deep into Nigerian society, the man is the working parent while the mom is a stay-at-home housewife.

Wonder why [b]that is,

Men don't just go out of their way to not "step out of their designated role" . If my wife comes home from work feeling tired, while I'm sitting there watching football with the kids needing to eat, I don't mind feeding them. It doesn't make me any less of a man. But at some point when it's becoming too heavy you have to draw the line and say, look woman enough of this.

I'm sure men find it harder to because a) it's a role and any role is hard to pull away from and b) it's much more easier to fufill, even its a man loses his job and is no long fufilling his role or breadwinner, he is still expected to keep his authority. Whats wrong with a man regularly making his own food? Or the family meals? Especially if the woman is the one working more and paying bills. I do think that if there are kids involved SOMEONE has to be home more than they work and someone has to work more than they are at home, but I think that it should vary from relationship to relationship.

Just as a man can hold on to his culture and have the sense to use what he believes will work for him. African women too are being pushed out of their comfort zone. Good example is if you look under the romance section, there are still quite a few women who will not marry a man without a job, because they feel like it is the duty of a man to be the breadwinner of his house, and I agree with them.

that is their choice and their desire, but what of the women that want a man that can raise a family?

well, my wife submits to me to an extent- She is super educated, bsc, mba, acca, aca, msc.

me, just bsc but i earn more than her a little bit but shes richer-- wetin she dey use money do nothing

, but i realised shes unfaithful, that really got me mad. she still denies it.

, but i read one of the messages in her phone she forgot to delete.

, just dont know what to do, WHAT CAN A MAN DO TO AN UNFAITHFUL WIFE

I PREFER D ONE WEY NO SUBMIT TO D ONE WEY DEY UNFAITFUL

.

Well I have been married for over six years and I think I can add my two pence from a the perspective of a married wife.

I am not super-educated in terms of university education. I am currently doing my BSc and at the moment I don't plan to go further than this, I am already 27 years old with children.
But I can definately say that I am emancipated. Which by the way lets me raise a question: Why is it believed that uneducated women are unlikely not to submit to their husbands? While reading this thread, I gained the impression that women are implying that higher education is THE empowerment for a woman to reason and act on her own. I think all women, regardless of their degrees, are justified to do so as well as I believe that the majority of even illiterate females don't follow their lords and masters blindfoldedly.

Some men claimed that it is compulsoury that one (ideally the wife) must generally submit to the other in a marriage, otherwise it will not work out. While I admit that a final decision in favour of the opinion of only one party must eventually be taken when there is an issue where no compromise can be reached, I don't think the decision must always be in favour of the man. It all depends on the situation and how something is priotorized for the individual. There are decisions my husband takes that I actually don't support but when I sense that he is very opinionated on this specific issue, I feel it is not worth a long debate and I leave it up to him. However, when something has huge priority for me, I try to stand my ground until I convinced him (or vice-versa).
Such heavy debates do happen, but not very often. If it happened over every thing, we would have to ask ourselves if we were really matching each other.

Concerning respect, respect has nothing to do with submission in my opionion. Respect is a normal thing, it should be as a matter of course that wife respects husband and husband respects wife. Unless you believe a woman is already acting disrespectful to her husband in airing an opposite opinion, an argument can always be porsued in a respectful manner.

gunhapp:

well, my wife submits to me to an extent- She is super educated, bsc, mba, acca, aca, msc.

me, just bsc but i earn more than her a little bit but shes richer-- wetin she dey use money do nothing

, but i realised shes unfaithful, that really got me mad. she still denies it.

, but i read one of the messages in her phone she forgot to delete.

, just don't know what to do, WHAT CAN A MAN DO TO AN UNFAITHFUL WIFE

I PREFER D ONE WEY NO SUBMIT TO D ONE WEY DEY UNFAITFUL

Tute! Doh! Pele! Sorry!

Feministic:

If all people are created equally than why can't all people be encouraged to live the life they want without worrying about society's backlash? Did you just comparing a working relationship with and romantic one? I am wondering if you are claiming that their is a heiarchy in relationships, if so, I just don't see why that is neccesarry, when you can admit that someone is not better than you, then why not have equality? Your boss earned the right to be your boss, what does a man do to earn the right to be the head of the householf?

Meaning you have a problem with society as a whole which is composed of women and men, not men alone. Yes, I compared a working relationship with a romantic one to prove to you that I can befriend someone who ranks superior to me in the working environment even though I understand that we are equals before God. A man has earned his right to be the breadwinner of the household as dictated, in our country, by our religious beliefs. The man has been ordained as the one responsible for managing the finances which is why he spends his days working. He is also obligated to provide the authority and emotional strength when the family needs somebody to look up to.

No, there are women that get paid less for doing the same job in the same building, and from what I see men are being given just as much respect and money from people in the beauty industry as women do. Improvements are being made, but only because people in the past fought for it, it wasn't some random spark of social evolution, the process was slow and for some, painful.
Wonder why that is,

Why are the women not filing lawsuits in court against it, or why do they not go elsewhere to look for jobs which pay them what they feel they deserve? The law clearly states equality for all, so that's a problem with the company structure, not with the men working there.
The part in bold is just your biased perspective at work again.

I'm sure men find it harder to because a) it's a role and any role is hard to pull away from and b) it's much more easier to fufill, even its a man loses his job and is no long fufilling his role or breadwinner, he is still expected to keep his authority. Whats wrong with a man regularly making his own food? Or the family meals? Especially if the woman is the one working more and paying bills. I do think that if there are kids involved SOMEONE has to be home more than they work and someone has to work more than they are at home, but I think that it should vary from relationship to relationship.

If a man wants to make his food he can go ahead and do that, no one is telling him not to. There are men who cannot make their own food because they were not even interested in cooking, so if the wife can cook why shouldn't she? you know that most men are naturally not brought up in the kitchen, but are outside instead doing works requiring more physical strength. Would you rather starve the family because you feel it's inferior to cook for your husband, even after all the work he has done?
If you are working more as the wife, find a way to reach a compromise with your husband. He should be the one working those heavy hours instead.

that is their choice and their desire, but what of the women that want a man that can raise a family?

If they can find him they can go for it, but we both know the chances are slim. If you do find him, tell him I said he's a lazy man who needs to get his a$s to work.

A man has earned his right to be the breadwinner of the household as dictated, in our country, by our religious beliefs. The man has been ordained as the one responsible for managing the finances which is why he spends his days working. He is also obligated to provide the authority and emotional strength when the family needs somebody to look up to.

This would be fine if it were limited to their own personal household, but people, Nigerians in particular, have not yet learned how to separate their own religious beliefs and interpretations from the public, there have been women who have been denied jobs or higher positions in their workplace because the one in charge assumed that as women, they either weren't capable, deserving or entitled to the job, I will admit that sometimes between a man and a woman, the man has proven himself to be the better one for that particular job, but I think denying that women are looked upon by society as the "weaker sex" is unrealistic, not just because of religious views but because of history.
I would understand that this could work in a family that actually wanted this, but in Nigeria, I find that women are not taken as seriously in the job market, this may be due to the fact that the idea is still pretty new ( American women were also treated with some resentment when they first entered the job market), and this contributes to the amount of women that have decent jobs, or were even encouraged to look for a job other than a nurse or a teacher. This is changing though, but I see so many Nigerian women with master degrees and no jobs, because they feel it is "not their place" to work or afraid that people, like the poster, will not see them as "suitable" wives, they are limiting their own progress more so out of fear than actual preference.



Quote

Why are the women not filing lawsuits in court against it, or why do they not go elsewhere to look for jobs which pay them what they feel they deserve? The law clearly states equality for all, so that's a problem with the company structure, not with the men working there.
The part in bold is just your biased perspective at work again.

Actually, there have been quite a few lawsuits over the matter, I'm not sure where you live but in America, lawsuits can be VERY pricey, especially when against a corporation or a business, and alot of these women can't afford it, for obvious reasons.

If a man wants to make his food he can go ahead and do that, no one is telling him not to. There are men who cannot make their own food because they were not even interested in cooking, so if the wife can cook why shouldn't she? you know that most men are naturally not brought up in the kitchen, but are outside instead doing works requiring more physical strength. Would you rather starve the family because you feel it's inferior to cook for your husband, even after all the work he has done?
If you are working more as the wife, find a way to reach a compromise with your husband. He should be the one working those heavy hours instead.

There are men that could not make their own food due to lack of interest, or being told that as a man they would not have to cause they wife was supposed to do it, and some women cannot cook due to their previous lifestyle or just never having interest in it. Honestly i think that everyone should learn how to cook , it always comes in handy, and its the only way you can have real control over what you and (possibly) your family eat in this McDiet of a world. I can acknowledge that most Nigerian men just aren't taught how to cook, through no fault of their own and most Nigerian girls are, but the way we were raised is only a part of who we are, some men could make the effort to learn and yes, it may be hard but I see it as progress, I think both men and women need to know that helping around the house does not make you inferior, you're just being helpful.

If I had a husband that worked or worked more hours than me, then of course I would feel responsible for keeping up the house and feeding the children,it would be my part as the "at home partner" and i would expect that if it was reversed he would understand that it's his duty to help with that instead , (I think that some women think that doing so makes you inferior, because the two ideas have been linked for so long) you should mold yourself to the life you have, no matter what your gender is.

I don't think that men should always be the ones working outside of the house more than women, like I said before, times are changing, but we are all entitled to our opinions; After all, I have met african women that got a degree with NO plans of ever working, simply because its what they wanted, they love to cook, keep a tidy house and want to have a bird's eye view of their children growing up, it had nothing to do with what society wanted or expected from them, they just didn't like the idea of being away from home and realized that the only way to maintain such a lifestyle was to find a partner that could support it. But some women love their children and families just as much, but find their passion lies in the workforce and may find themselves discontented if not working, since they will obviously putting a lot of time into their work, then who else would be expected to help with the housework/feeding but her spouse? That's just the way I see it.




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f they can find him they can go for it, but we both know the chances are slim. If you do find him, tell him I said he's a lazy man who needs to get his a$s to work.

Ok, honestly? some men (and women) are lazy, usually the type that run from job to job, never do housework, also asking his/her spouses parent's for money, that kind of thing. But since I find that being a housewife is just as hard, if not harder, than being a part of the workforce, I would not consider a man that wishes to be a househusband "lazy".