musKeeto:

......
Perhaps they were picnics?

wiegraf:

......
Perhaps they were picnics?

musKeeto:

Imagine?. . . .WOW!. . .The lies people tell themselves. . .

mazaje:

Imagine?. . . .WOW!. . .The lies people tell themselves. . .

This one pass me o.. I wan see as this one go end...


Some weeks back , here

Mr_Anony:
Good you raised that objection but let me point out to you that we are talking of a being that created out of absolutely nothing. Whatever concept of morality or logic the creation has, it is because the creator willed it so. Therefore it will be wrong for the creation to expect it's creator to be subject to the same rules it's creator used to define it's existence.

To which I replied

musKeeto: The beginnings of a psychopath...

Then, this jewel

Ihedinobi:
Love is not obligatory.

It's only logical at this point to conclude that massacres ordered by the Lord become necessarily good and purposeful.

wiegraf:

Hmmm? Yes, it would have been so if he did care (with you culpable) but he doesn't seem to mind and is even asking for answers himself. Cool, no harm done here but with others this could have come off as intrusive and needless. It's a deeply private issue, unless there was something obvious on the other thread (which I've not read tbf) how did you know he was willing to properly discuss this in public? Or are you just using him to advance your agenda, whatever that may be?

See what thinking like an paranoid christian who always suspect atheists does to you?


We all talk about our private beliefs here on the religion section. Stop making eba out of a grain of garri

WOW!!! now i am more confused than ever

musKeeto: @InesQ: As I promised...

This analogy fails, in my opinion, as it fails to highlight the omniscience of God. I assume you're referencing the Christian God. As a human, you would quarantine because that's the limit of your power. What if you could reset? Start all over from the beginning (an oxymoron considering that God is the Beginning and end)? Would you still quarantine, considering the harm and evil that could arise from that decision?

Yes I reference the Christian God. And the response I'm giving below is fundamentally Christian in its worldview. It is acceptable to me.

In my understanding, God made the angelic beings and gave them freewill. For a benevolent God, this freewill also means he will not go round to override their freewill. Rather it meant He'll be fair and will set down some rules. Whoever uses their freewill to cross the line will answer to the rules. Whoever does as the set rules demand, will be safe.

Then God made man as regent on earth and also gave him freewill. Also set rules, to keep everyone playing fair. After all, in the absence of rules we cannot speak of fairness.

Up next, Lucifer, an angel of light - and of his own freewill - led a rebellion against God in heaven. (Revelations indicated that he convinced 1/3 of the angelic host to come from light to his dark side). Like every military strategist, he knew he had to also conquer his enemy's annex, Earth. He also wanted to command Earth because He knew it was important to God; why else would he place a regent there?

Could God have destroyed Lucifer and the renegade angels to stop the contamination as a form of reset? Yes of course he could have. But he allowed them because they only acted out of freewill, deciding to go against God. God didn't make them robots.

Lucifer tried to win man over to his side to increase his stakes; because he knew God loved man. So, corrupting man with rebellion will indirectly break God's heart. Thus he attacked man at Eden, taking advantage of man's freewill to go against a RULE that God placed on earth. Man disobeyed God and thus became an outlaw as well, just like Lucifer. Lucifer would then scorn heart-broken God and say "Isn't that the Man project you were so proud of? Now we're all your enemies and you can do nothing about it".

Could God still reset at this point, just destroy everything and start over? Yes of course. But that would mean Lucifer has won. RATHER, God in his fairness decided that he will prove to Lucifer that man CAN, of HIS OWN FREE-WILL, get things right. It would take God's guidance and protection BUT God would not force him.

But God knew how hard it is to always do right, so he decided to set a long term plan in motion: He'd come in to the picture as MAN, and give Lucifer the opportunity to do his worst. THEN prove to Lucifer and all of mankind that it is not impossible to live right. This is why Jesus is called the second Adam. His life an example to us as men.

So God promised that Jesus will come and defeat and crush Lucifer. Also apparently as an enemy of God, nature (which remained loyal to God) will become harsh against man.

There were times in the OT where God was grieved that he even created man because in their freewill they did more evil than good. He thinned out creation at Noah's time while giving them freewill to board the ark or not. After the flood, he promised to never again wipe out people but yet their hearts returned to evil with Lucifer's influence. So he had to take a more drastic step and reveal himself to another human, Abraham. Abraham, of his own freewill, become God's friend. God saw the promise in him and decided to send Jesus through his bloodline.

God needed Abraham to know if he was a TYPE of himself, speaking from a human perspective. So he asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead so he went ahead by faith. That's crazy, I know. But when you and wife are decades beyond reproduction and God gives a son, it's not hard to believe He can raise the son again. But God didn't even let him get that far. He had just done exactly what God would do with Jesus in the future; out of freewill.

There was no longer any need for a reset. God had found the one through whom Jesus can be manifested. All he just needed to do was to protect them, quarantine them, and give them laws to keep them in check until Jesus.

Too Long, Didn't Read:
A reset will indicate that the enemy won over God by frustrating him and thwarting his plans. God wanted man to win for himself, howbeit with some guidance from God. Afterall, Lucifer conquered man in his domain using freewill. In fairness, man should seize his victory in turn using freewill.

^^^ what a load of hogwash.

Alfamann: ^^^ what a load of hogwash.

Okay

InesQor:

Yes I reference the Christian God. And the response I'm giving below is fundamentally Christian in it's worldview. It is acceptable to me.

In my understanding, God made the angelic beings and gave them freewill. For a benevolent God, this freewill also means he will not go round to override their freewill. Rather it meant He'll be fair and will set down some rules. Whoever uses their freewill to cross the line will answer to the rules. Whoever does as the set rules demand, will be safe.

Then God made man as regent on earth and also gave him freewill. Also set rules, to keep everyone playing fair. After all, in the absence of rules we cannot speak of fairness.

Up next, Lucifer, an angel of light - and of his own freewill - led a rebellion against God in heaven. (Revelations indicated that he convinced 1/3 of the angelic host to come from light to his dark side). Like every military strategist, he knew he had to also conquer his enemy's annex, Earth. He also wanted to command Earth because He knew it was important to God; why else would he place a regent there?

Could God have destroyed Lucifer and the renegade angels to stop the contamination as a form of reset? Yes of course he could have. But he allowed them because they only acted out of freewill, deciding to go against God. God didn't make them robots.

Lucifer tried to win man over to his side to increase his stakes; because he knew God loved man. So, corrupting man with rebellion will indirectly break God's heart. Thus he attacked man at Eden, taking advantage of man's freewill to go against a RULE that God placed on earth. Man disobeyed God and thus became an outlaw as well, just like Lucifer. Lucifer would then scorn heart-broken God and say "Isn't that the Man project you were so proud of? Now we're all your enemies and you can do nothing about it".

Could God still reset at this point, just destroy everything and start over? Yes of course. But that would mean Lucifer has won. RATHER, God in his fairness decided that he will prove to Lucifer that man CAN, of HIS OWN FREE-WILL, get things right. It would take God's guidance and protection BUT God would not force him.

But God knew how hard it is to always do right, so he decided to set a long term plan in motion: He'd come in to the picture as MAN, and give Lucifer the opportunity to do his worst. THEN prove to Lucifer and all of mankind that it is not impossible to live right. This is why Jesus is called the second Adam. His life an example to us as men.

So God promised that Jesus will come and defeat and crush Lucifer. Also apparently as an enemy of God, nature (which remained loyal to God) will become harsh against man.

There were times in the OT where God was grieved that he even created man because in their freewill they did more evil than good. He thinned out creation at Noah's time while giving them freewill to board the ark or not. After the flood, he promised to never again wipe out people but yet their hearts returned to evil with Lucifer's influence. So he had to take a more drastic step and reveal himself to another human, Abraham. Abraham, of his own freewill, become God's friend. God saw the promise in him and decided to send Jesus through his bloodline.

God needed Abraham to know if he was a TYPE of himself, speaking from a human perspective. So he asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead so he went ahead by faith. That's crazy, I know. But when you and wife are decades beyond reproduction and God gives a son, it's not hard to believe He can raise the son again. But God didn't even let him get that far. He had just done exactly what God would do with Jesus in the future; out of freewill.

There was no longer any need for a reset. God had found the one through whom Jesus can be manifested. All he just needed to do was to protect them, quarantine them, and give them laws to keep them in check until Jesus.

Too Long, Didn't Read:
A reset will indicate that the enemy won over God by frustrating him and thwarting his plans. God wanted man to win for himself, howbeit with some guidance from God. Afterall, Lucifer conquered man in his domain using freewill. In fairness, man should seize his victory in turn using freewill.

@bolded makes me feel like this

The scary part is that if God created man and intended that man shuld live a happy life of enjoyment and worship him but his grand plan didn't workout, how then are we sure that heaven will b such a perfect place even as God intended?

We seem to have made God an imperfect being even as we call him a perfect God.

1. He created the angels wit d intension that they shuld obey him and worship him and do all heveanly chores yet the devil disobeyed and not only him but thousand of angels followed suit, then his plans scattered (xcept if it were all his intension)
2. He created man in his own image to live a perfect life of worshiping him, man disobeyed him and Gods plan scattered, there is now death, disaster, sorrow etc (xcept if this was his intension)
3.He got angry wit d world during d time of noah and sodom and gomorah and destryd the earth and the city only for evil to continue evn worse than it was bfore distruction. Y destry d earth, kill men and women, babies and animals only for u not to acheive any thing (xcept if it was all his intension)
4. He sent his only begotten son to die for us. The young man was disgraced, rejected, abused and killed for humans to be saved. Yet the ration of pple going to heaven compared to that goin to heaven is 5:95. What did jesus death acheive ? (Xcept if it was his intension.)


Hw then can we trust that heaven will not fail again like his past plans had all failed? Pls I need answers too

--------------------------------------------

and for for the second bolded: why the hell should God care if Lucifer wins or not? especially considering the fact that God knows the devastation lucifer would cause to his beloveth creation(man). he didnt seek lucifers permission to create the world in the first place, why would he allow lucifer to make jest of it. beside the statement sounds like God is doing competition with his own creation(lucifer). pls honestly read this story again and see if it really makes sense

@Frank 3.16

I do not believe any of the plans failed because they have all shown us the effects of freewill and consequence.

How do we know that this is not the best of possible universes based on the things that led us up to this point? We don't know. Just like we don't know this is the worst case scenario. If we assume this is the best, then the question you'll be asking is why the other possible scenarios are so bad. And vice versa. But we are here, in any case, and this is what we have, plus the benefit of history to see how things go when bad choices are made.

I believe God's project didn't fail because the experience of freewill is what we're here for. Freewill to do as you please, AND face the consequence. That's why God said he made us in his image: He too does things as he pleases, and he faces the consequences. He did as he pleased by giving us freewill, and he's facing the consequences. We'll face ours too.

I do not believe that 5% of people will make heaven. I'll like to know your rationale for this belief.

@Frank 3.16

As per Lucifer winning, think of this:

If a virus ravages my computer, would I want to format it and lose all I've done on it or would I rather clean it out and save my files? Regardless of the fact that the virus is a mere few kilobytes, a software created by someone like me?

@Frank 3.16

My question is, will you let the virus "win"? Even though it's just a software?

InesQor: @Frank 3.16

I do not believe any of the plans failed because they have all shown us the effects of freewill and consequence.

How do we know that this is not the best of possible universes based on the things that led us up to this point? We don't know. Just like we don't know this is the worst case scenario. If we assume this is the best, then the question you'll be asking is why the other possible scenarios are so bad. And vice versa. But we are here, in any case, and this is what we have, plus the benefit of history to see how things go when bad choices are made.

I believe God's project didn't fail because the experience of freewill is what we're here for. Freewill to do as you please, AND face the consequence. That's why God said he made us in his image: He too does things as he pleases, and he faces the consequences. He did as he pleased by giving us freewill, and he's facing the consequences. We'll face ours too.



I do not believe that 5% of people will make heaven. I'll like to know your rationale for this belief.

his plan didnt fail? well u can choose to see it the way u like. its just like the case of a half empty/full cup. but as far as i am concerned if Gods plan was the the angels will worship him, that man shuld live for ever in this world in nothing but joy and praises to God and (as a result of free will) it didnt work out... the plan failed. if his intention was that we shuld live a life without sickness, natural desaster, suffering and wickedness and it is not so now, the intension didnt work out hence it failed. if he destroyed the earth with flood because of mans excess sinful nature and yet there is still much sin in the world, the whole essence of destrying the world failed. the bible even acounted God regretting creating man.

NB: saying God does things as he pleases and faces consequese just like man is funny cos it makes him sound as disorderly as man. what hope do we have then?

InesQor: @Frank 3.16

As per Lucifer winning, think of this:

If a virus ravages my computer, would I want to format it and lose all I've done on it or would I rather clean it out and save my files? Regardless of the fact that the virus is a mere few kilobytes, a software created by someone like me?

this ur analogy is not fair because man unlike files in computer has feelings and feel pain. besides the man who created the computer is not the same man who created virus. if it was the same person wouldnt u say that the man is dubious/ he wants to give and collect.

now in ur analogy, the assumption is that i created the computer(the world), the files (people), the virus(lucifer). if the virus affects my computer, i will use a powerful antivirus and kill of the virus and pick the affected files that i love so much and heal it instead of condeming the innocent files that i love to torture. they were only victimes of circumstance. if i have not created the virus there wouldnt have been room for them to succumb to the yeild of the virus. i gave the files the conditions to be corrupt and i shuld have known that they are nothing but files and will definately succumb. i will take the blame and get things right. and when i destroy the virus, i willl make sure he does not affect my files again.

InesQor: @Frank 3.16

My question is, will you let the virus "win"? Even though it's just a software?

no i will not let the virus win. i will destroy it and seperate it from the virus eternnally

@Frank3.16

It's not impossible for a hacker to create a virus (intending to either study it or use it maliciously) and it ends up destroying some of his own files.

frank3.16:

no i will not let the virus win. i will destroy it and seperate it from the virus eternnally

You speak like it's that easy to separate a virus from files that it infects. That's not how it works with software or even with physical viruses in nature.

InesQor:

You speak like it's that easy to separate a virus from files that it infects. That's not how it works with software or even with physical viruses in nature.

You forgot that frank is omnipotent.

Alfamann:

You forgot that frank is omnipotent.

thank u, and i created both the virus and the files, i am to blame for the file getting affected. but good enuf, i can do anything and i love my files so much that i wouldnt want it to continue to suffer because of what the virus i created is doing to it.

now @inesQor will it make sense if i say i have given the file freewill to reject the virus? do u think the file can resist the virus? remember i created the virus and i know its strenght.

Alfamann:
You forgot that frank is omnipotent.

Agreed. But Frank is also a person of high integrity. As much as he can do anything, he WON'T do things against what he previously guaranteed. Absolute power without any control or integrity will only lead to doom.

frank3.16:

now @inesQor will it make sense if i say i have given the file freewill to reject the virus? do u think the file can resist the virus? remember i created the virus and i know its strenght.

Not sure I see your point. Jesus successfully resisted the devil so it is not impossible, difficult as it may be.

InesQor: @Muskeeto:

Imagine I had a large poultry farm and I'm developing a special breed of layers in a section. So promising that the yield from those few premium layers far surpasses that of the rest of the lot in thousands.

Now, an enemy of progress introduces a deadly virus strain into my poultry farm and the contamination is rapid, they are dying off in all directions. What is my best bet?

Quarantine. That's my best bet. Quarantine of the promising breed. My priority is to increase profit, so my preoccupation would be to stop the spread. Even at the painful loss of thousands, I will keep few.

In similar regard it is my understanding and belief that from the days of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, God quarantined Israel from all sorts of pollution to ensure that Jesus, the special breed, can be born out of it. He did WHATEVER it took to ensure that by saving THAT chance of Jesus being born, he can save everyone else from ruin. He made the promise since the beginning, and the enemy knew this special breed: Jesus, will bring his doom so he did ALL he could to spiritually contaminate Israel, to politically extinguish them, etc. God had to quarantine them by all means, even if it meant destroying some of them or crushing their enemies.

And finally Jesus was born. There was no longer any need for the quarantine.

It is my belief that this is the reason why the OT God seems different from the NT God in the Bible. His work of quarantine was done. Now, over to Jesus to influence the world and bring back the profits.

Most atheists like me can't grasp/understand an argument that forces on God a necessity. God ought to be the only true free willed being.

Kay 17:

Most atheists like me can't grasp/understand an argument that forces on God a necessity. God ought to be the only true free willed being.

But a "true free willed being" with no moral compass whatsoever, and who honours no agreements (even the ones that he made in his freewill, e.g. giving freewill to angels and man) is a tyrant.

InesQor:

But a "true free willed being" with no moral compass whatsoever, and who honours no agreements (even the ones that he made in his freewill, e.g. giving freewill to angels and man) is a tyrant.

no vex, agreement he made with who? i didnt ask to be born or to be created. bsides why will he be a tyrant because he helps us in our shortcomings as humans with his devine power. wouldnt it be better we have a loving and merciful tyrant instead of the situation humans are facing now. look around u, PEOPLE ARE SUFFEREING. YET MANY MORE WILL CONTINUE IN HELL. is this what following laid down protoclas mean to God?

InesQor:

But a "true free willed being" with no moral compass whatsoever, and who honours no agreements (even the ones that he made in his freewill, e.g. giving freewill to angels and man) is a tyrant.

So god is not a "true free willed being"?

@ Uyi. Maybe your concept of love is different from God's concept of love. If you say love is well defined for you who defined love as you know it.? You say God has not answered you well maybe you are not ready to listen to him.

Its ok to ask questions it always gives deeper insights.

frank3.16:

no vex, agreement he made with who?

But wai? I no vex naa. Agreement via allowing some elements of creation, like angels and mankind, to have freewill.

frank3.16:
i didnt ask to be born or to be created.

But God didn't ask you to be born either. That is a decision of your parents and their own parents. Your ancestors.

frank3.16:
bsides why will he be a tyrant because he helps us in our shortcomings as humans with his devine power. wouldnt it be better we have a loving and merciful tyrant instead of the situation humans are facing now.

Can you see the irony? THIS IS THE EXACT THING PEOPLE ARE BLAMING GOD FOR DOING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. i.e. the times He had to make hard decisions to protect those in His agreement / covenant, even at the expense of striking down others.

Let me break it down. You think a merciful tyrant is better, a vigilante who strikes down bad guys? And do you think anybody will survive? For sure, neither you nor me will survive because we all do wrong. Even when we don't plan to. Is that what you really think will work?

[b]Scenario: On Monday you woke up late. Maybe if you had slept earlier, you would have woken up earlier, but you were watching a movie on Sunday night. So you woke up late on Monday. NOW if you had woken up on time, by the time you drive to the junction, your car would have slowed down traffic and prevented one guy from overspeeding, but you didn't, and as such the guy kills a child trying to cross the road to school. The guy was overspeeding because his wife is in labour. The child crossed the road by himself because the Mother was ill and the Father had travelled. The Father travelled because he had to be at work. The Mother was ill because the food she bought at a buka the other day was not prepared with clean water. There was no clean water because the government doesn't supply water and Landlord refused to install potable water via a borehole in the compound. The Landlord didn't install the borehole because he wanted the rent to be low cost. The government didn't supply water because a corrupt politician embezzled the funds. The politician embezzled the funds because he had to settle his political godfather out of it. ETC ETC ETC

God can see ALL OF THIS, which are all actions of freewill. They all had GOOD reasons to do what they did BUT they had the choices to do something else. So Who is really to blame? Who should God strike down, as a tyrant?[/b]

frank3.16:
look around u, PEOPLE ARE SUFFEREING. YET MANY MORE WILL CONTINUE IN HELL. is this what following laid down protoclas mean to God?

Even you and I are making people that we do not know or will never know, suffer by the few simple decisions we make daily.

As long as there is freewill, we will all make choices which will affect other people directly or indirectly. People will suffer. Sometimes even you and I will suffer as well for other people's decisions. This is very normal when there is freewill. If God takes freewill away from us, then it's as well as if there is no life on the planet. Like trees and streams, we'll just be growing and flowing. But, no, we are here on earth for the EXPERIENCE of making decisions.

Alfamann:
So god is not a "true free willed being"?

What god do you refer to?

InesQor:
But wai? I no vex naa. Agreement via allowing some elements of creation, like angels and mankind, to have freewill.


But God didn't ask you to be born either. That is a decision of your parents and their own parents. Your ancestors.


Can you see the irony? THIS IS THE EXACT THING PEOPLE ARE BLAMING GOD FOR DOING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. i.e. the times He had to make hard decisions to protect those in His agreement / covenant, even at the expense of striking down others.

Let me break it down. You think a merciful tyrant is better, a vigilante who strikes down bad guys? And do you think anybody will survive? For sure, neither you nor me will survive because we all do wrong. Even when we don't plan to. Is that what you really think will work?

[b]Scenario: On Monday you woke up late. Maybe if you had slept earlier, you would have woken up earlier, but you were watching a movie on Sunday night. So you woke up late on Monday. NOW if you had woken up on time, by the time you drive to the junction, your car would have slowed down traffic and prevented one guy from overspeeding, but you didn't, and as such the guy kills a child trying to cross the road to school. The guy was overspeeding because his wife is in labour. The child crossed the road by himself because the Mother was ill and the Father had travelled. The Father travelled because he had to be at work. The Mother was ill because the food she bought at a buka the other day was not prepared with clean water. There was no clean water because the government doesn't supply water and Landlord refused to install potable water via a borehole in the compound. The Landlord didn't install the borehole because he wanted the rent to be low cost. The government didn't supply water because a corrupt politician embezzled the funds. The politician embezzled the funds because he had to settle his political godfather out of it. ETC ETC ETC

God can see ALL OF THIS, which are all actions of freewill. They all had GOOD reasons to do what they did BUT they had the choices to do something else. So Who is really to blame? Who should God strike down, as a tyrant?[/b]


Even you and I are making people that we do not know or will never know, suffer by the few simple decisions we make daily.

As long as there is freewill, we will all make choices which will affect other people directly or indirectly. People will suffer. Sometimes even you and I will suffer as well for other people's decisions. This is very normal when there is freewill. If God takes freewill away from us, then it's as well as if there is no life on the planet. Like trees and streams, we'll just be growing and flowing. But, no, we are here on earth for the EXPERIENCE of making decisions.

now, this makes sense... but must he compound it with the concept of hell?

frank3.16:

now, this makes sense... but must he compound it with the concept of hell?

As I explained earlier, every act of freewill must have a consequence. Heaven and Hell are final rewards of consequence.

Whether heaven and hell exist as physical locations, or whether they will simply be conditions of existence within the same world (the way abject poverty and affluent wealth are extreme conditions within the same world), I think it makes sense that they should exist as final compounded rewards of all the consequences of freewill.

InesQor:

As I explained earlier, every act of freewill must have a consequence. Heaven and Hell are final rewards of consequence.

Whether heaven and hell exist as physical locations, or whether they will simply be conditions of existence within the same world (the way abject poverty and affluent wealth are extreme conditions within the same world), I think it makes sense that they should exist as final compounded rewards of all the consequences of freewill.

well, if we are here to xperience free will, the concept of hell makes no sense then, in fact it confuses the whole point u are making. isnt it obvious that pple are already facing the nagative consequences of free will here on earth? how and why did God choose to settle it all with the concept of hell?