JeSoul: Interesting thread going here and wish I had more time to go through it thoroughly but...
but to uncle Uyi - the path you are on is fantastic. Self-discovery is exciting and everyone must come to a place where they put their beliefs to the test and figure out if it is worth holding on to or throwing away. Nothing worse than a programmed zombie either way.


In regards to the core question "Is the Christian God good/loving? especially in light of many OT events?"
^to that, I say no - at least not according to our present understanding of what good is.

This is of course problematic because we are limited by what we know. Some questions we can ask ourselves - how accurate, true, correct - is our understanding of what good/loving is/entails? does our understanding of "good/loving" change with time? generation? culture? context? circumstance? etc etc... is 'good' rigid? is it fixed? or is it relative? fluid depending on the situation?

One aspect I can speak to with confidence - when you say why couldn't God just forgive? If someone harmed my family - my husband, or children or parents - and in the court someone stood up and asked me why can't I just forgive? I will not only shoot down the criminal, I will also shoot down the person who suggested forgiveness.


All in all, I wish you well my dear. If christianity is for you, you will make your way back. If it is not for you then you will move on to other beliefs. Still, it is well with you. Godbless.

I knew you were a closet atheist and are just pretending to be religious because of your job.

Anyway, you should have gone through the thread first and you wouldn't have said what you just said.

Well you are very different from the god you worship in that if someone harmed your family, you would shoot them, but your god would send a member of his own family to be killed and tortured by those that did the harm in the first place.

I give up understanding christians.

JeSoul: Interesting thread going here and wish I had more time to go through it thoroughly but...
but to uncle Uyi - the path you are on is fantastic. Self-discovery is exciting and everyone must come to a place where they put their beliefs to the test and figure out if it is worth holding on to or throwing away. Nothing worse than a programmed zombie either way.


In regards to the core question "Is the Christian God good/loving? especially in light of many OT events?"
^to that, I say no - at least not according to our present understanding of what good is.

This is of course problematic because we are limited by what we know. Some questions we can ask ourselves - how accurate, true, correct - is our understanding of what good/loving is/entails? does our understanding of "good/loving" change with time? generation? culture? context? circumstance? etc etc... is 'good' rigid? is it fixed? or is it relative? fluid depending on the situation?

[size=18pt]One aspect I can speak to with confidence - when you say why couldn't God just forgive? If someone harmed my family - my husband, or children or parents - and in the court someone stood up and asked me why can't I just forgive? I will not only shoot down the criminal, I will also shoot down the person who suggested forgiveness. [/size]


All in all, I wish you well my dear. If christianity is for you, you will make your way back. If it is not for you then you will move on to other beliefs. Still, it is well with you. Godbless.

smh......and with the highlighted expalanation, she thinks that she has explained why God can't just forgive mankind. lol

I am becoming scared of these absurd twisting of logic to accomodate a "loving but sacrifice-supporting" God

Alfamann:

I knew you were a closet atheist and are just pretending to be religious because of your job.

Anyway, you should have gone through the thread first and you wouldn't have said what you just said.

Well you are very different from the god you worship in that if someone harmed your family, you would shoot them, but your god would sent a member of his own family to be killed and tortured by those that did the harm in the first place.

I give up understanding christians.

Lol. Closet atheist? you may want to re-read my post.

This thread is for uncle Uyi but lemme spell it out in case anyone else wondered: I am a christian. I believe in God. I believe in the bible. I believe in the saving power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I walk everyday with the cross of Christ on my shoulder and His example in my heart. And I will believe all the above both here on earth and in the afterlife after I pass.

Closet atheist? as I once rapped in one of my tunes...

I'd rather die a thousand deaths and 1
than be ashamed of the Father, Spirit & Son

Cheers friend Alfa.

JeSoul: Interesting thread going here and wish I had more time to go through it thoroughly but...
but to uncle Uyi - the path you are on is fantastic. Self-discovery is exciting and everyone must come to a place where they put their beliefs to the test and figure out if it is worth holding on to or throwing away. Nothing worse than a programmed zombie either way.


In regards to the core question "Is the Christian God good/loving? especially in light of many OT events?"
^to that, I say no - at least not according to our present understanding of what good is.

This is of course problematic because we are limited by what we know. Some questions we can ask ourselves - how accurate, true, correct - is our understanding of what good/loving is/entails? does our understanding of "good/loving" change with time? generation? culture? context? circumstance? etc etc... is 'good' rigid? is it fixed? or is it relative? fluid depending on the situation?

One aspect I can speak to with confidence - when you say why couldn't God just forgive? If someone harmed my family - my husband, or children or parents - and in the court someone stood up and asked me why can't I just forgive? I will not only shoot down the criminal, I will also shoot down the person who suggested forgiveness.


All in all, I wish you well my dear. If christianity is for you, you will make your way back. If it is not for you then you will move on to other beliefs. Still, it is well with you. Godbless.

Haba Sister,
But that is the whole idea of Christianity! This is why I say religion is unfair, you cannot eat your cake and have it. You cannot now use this as a justification to explain an all loving God's position it just makes God very vindictive. This does not even pass the test as you have been commanded in the bible to forgive, picking and choosing again! Haba!
If God cannot forgive, then you expect jews who had six million of their brothers fathers husbands sisters killed by the mad man adolf hitler and all he has to do is say a prayer in his death bed and he is in heaven while the rest six million roast in hell? Kids inclusive?
Yes it might be difficult, but if someone harms my family, his death suffering or what ever would not bring the person back thats a fact of life, for a christian I respect sincerely expected better.


PS: WHAT THE HELL DID THE PERSON WHO SUGGESTED THIS DO TO WARRANT A BULLET AS WELL.

JeSoul: Lol. Closet atheist? you may want to re-read my post.

This thread is for uncle Uyi but lemme spell it out in case anyone else wondered: I am a christian. I believe in God. I believe in the bible. I believe in the saving power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I walk everyday with the cross of Christ on my shoulder and His example in my heart. And I will believe all the above both here on earth and in the afterlife after I pass.

Closet atheist? as I once rapped in one of my tunes...

I'd rather die a thousand deaths and 1
than be ashamed of the Father, Spirit & Son

Cheers friend Alfa.

@ the bolded. What now differentiates you from a radical Muslim?

Logicboy03:



smh......and with the highlighted expalanation, she thinks that she has explained why God can't just forgive mankind. lol

I am becoming scared of these absurd twisting of logic to accomodate a "loving but sacrifice-supporting" God

NO mind them. They are blinded by their very own analogies too..

Let me help her. The real situation is, the "accused" that harmed your close family member is also your close family member. Even at that you still wouldn't forgive? or then this time it's different?. Be honest to yourself for once JeSoul

I taya for Christians oh

at all the replies. If you will re-read my post at what I actually said - not what people think I said or went a step further and applied whatthey think I said to something I didn't say. And furthermore, that's why you all aren't christians - you obviously disagree with anything I say and it is your perogative to do so. Cheers friends.

---

and @ my boy Chris...

Chrisbenogor:
Haba Sister,
But that is the whole idea of Christianity! This is why I say religion is unfair, you cannot eat your cake and have it. You cannot now use this as a justification to explain an all loving God's position it just makes God very vindictive. This does not even pass the test as you have been commanded in the bible to forgive, picking and choosing again! Haba!
If God cannot forgive, then you expect jews who had six million of their brothers fathers husbands sisters killed by the mad man adolf hitler and all he has to do is say a prayer in his death bed and he is in heaven while the rest six million roast in hell? Kids inclusive?
Yes it might be difficult, but if someone harms my family, his death suffering or what ever would not bring the person back thats a fact of life, for a christian I respect sincerely expected better.

I simply gave an analogy as to why saying "simply forgive" is a problematic, unrealistic proposition. I did not post that as justification for the whatever the biblical stance is. Hope that's clearer?

What? Im just seeing this. Uyi. send me a msg on Facebook Asap

JeSoul: at all the replies. If you will re-read my post at what I actually said - not what people think I said or went a step further and applied whatthey think I said to something I didn't say. And furthermore, that's why you all aren't christians - you obviously disagree with anything I say and it is your perogative to do so. Cheers friends.

---

and @ my boy Chris...


I simply gave an analogy as to why saying "simply forgive" is a problematic, unrealistic proposition. I did not post that as justification for the whatever the biblical stance is. Hope that's clearer?

Well I think your analogy did not sound christ like at all. Forgiveness is the bed rock of Christianity how many parables did the lord give about it, the bible is awash of lines asking y'all to forgive.

Another part I wanted to address...

Chrisbenogor: Yes it might be difficult, but if someone harms my family, his death suffering or what ever would not bring the person back thats a fact of life, for a christian I respect sincerely expected better.

....oh! you certainly have not read the book of Psalms.
Do you think being a 'christian' divorces you from the 'practical' emotions every human being goes through? If you hurt my family you think my first reaction will be to 'pray' for you? .

PS: WHAT THE HELL DID THE PERSON WHO SUGGESTED THIS DO TO WARRANT A BULLET AS WELL.

I guess the sarcasm was lost in my example... or people are too wound up?

Chrisbenogor:
Well I think your analogy did not sound christ like at all. Forgiveness is the bed rock of Christianity how many parables did the lord give about it, the bible is awash of lines asking y'all to forgive.

Indeed it is! I have not said anywhere that it isn't. I merely gave a simple analogy that is throwing you all off - and I'm not sure why.

And please what is your understanding of 'forgiveness'? To let criminals go free?

JeSoul:

Indeed it is! I have not said anywhere that it isn't. I merely gave a simple analogy that is throwing you all off - and I'm not sure why.

And please what is your understanding of 'forgiveness'? To let criminals go free?

what would Jesus do?

toba: What? Im just seeing this. Uyi. send me a msg on Facebook Asap

There's trouble in paradise.

@logic boy
Have you managed to deconvert another christian?

Offtopic
Send me that email again because I deleted the last one by mistake while removing spam from my inbox

Area_boy:

what would Jesus do?

...I won't attempt to answer what you think I would think Jesus would "do". I will simply say if you believe Jesus would agree and set the criminal free then no wahala - or if you believe He wouldn't then no wahala too.

I was simply trying to counter with a simple analogy the simplistic idea of "simply forgive" and how impractically untenable it is. It is funny how everyone focused on only the second half of my post - while entirely skipping over the meat and foundation laid in the first half.

but alas such is the way of these kinds of 'discussions'. Which is why I addressed Uyi directly. Me I no get power for 'debates' of this kind so forgive if my submissions break in transmission. InesQor has provided plenty of threads where we've done this to death in the past.

Cheers '_boy

manmustwac: @logic boy
Have you managed to deconvert another christian?

Offtopic
Send me that email again because I deleted the last one by mistake while removing spam from my inbox

Sent you the mail.


lol @ deconversion

JeSoul:

Indeed it is! I have not said anywhere that it isn't. I merely gave a simple analogy that is throwing you all off - and I'm not sure why.

And please what is your understanding of 'forgiveness'? To let criminals go free?

Not at all, plus we are talking about Christian forgiveness here my own definition does not matter. As a human being I can forgive people when they wrong me, I may or may not forget , depending on how much if my trust is betrayed I may or may not allow the person in my life. I forgive for myself and I don't hold grudges for myself. So tell me what Christian forgiveness entails in case I missed the versed that talked about magnum 357 and blowing brains.

Chrisbenogor:
Not at all, plus we are talking about Christian forgiveness here my own definition does not matter. As a human being I can forgive people when they wrong me, I may or may not forget , depending on how much if my trust is betrayed I may or may not allow the person in my life. I forgive for myself and I don't hold grudges for myself. So tell me what Christian forgiveness entails in case I missed the versed that talked about magnum 357 and blowing brains.

Lol...now you talkin!

Of course Jesus taught christians to forgive, turn the other cheek, lay down their lives etc etc (and the context of these must also be understood properly as well). As I said to Areadude - I was simply providing a counter to what I think is an impractical notion of 'simply forgive' by saying what I would do.

Would Jesoul really take a loaded gun into a courtroom (assuming I can get one in to begin) and shoot someone who says something that 'offends' me? those who thought the analogy was anything other than symbolic .... #tightlywoundup ...typical for the NL neo-pop-atheist population...apart from you of course my darl Chris lol.

Christian forgiveness - is 70 x 7 times in one single day. Christian forgiveness is NOT the suspension of human emotion - but rather a godly response in spite of that emotion. Christian forgiveness is also practical - should a known paedophile be allowed to work in a church nursey in the name of 'forgiveness'? Christian forgiveness is not foolish. Christian forgiveness is not based on carnal or worldly concepts of what 'morality' is - it is based on godly principles as put forth by many parables of Jesus.

Oh pls christians, your god's forgiveness means to burn sinners forever in a lake of fire and that is just the perfect forgiving act christians are so proud of.

Uyi Iredia:

Gideon wavered in doubt and therefore needed a sign from God to be convinced. Moses was a runaway killer. These are the men God used. Never mind we don't know all the details of their lives. In any case, what matters is there is no answer - either from God or the Christians. Maybe you should consider yourself a vessel for God to answer me.

I still insist that you should have a serious encounter with God who can best clear you. It is not fair enough for you to allow other people to tell you reason why God took certain actions. For example, If i take an action and you want to find out why i took the action, wouldn't it be best to hear directly from me than reading what other people make out of my action as my reason for doing it(as you are doing here now and in the books you said you ve read). Investigative journalism requires that you have a direct contact with an environment or person or thing you are investigating in order to come out with a solid and complete report. They take all the pains that is also involved to make sure they carry out a thorough investigation. Now, you have an issue with God over some actions he took and here you are looking for books and people that ll explain to you why God took that action. My dear brother thats not fair and balanced enough. None of us can give you better explanation than God himself. And for you to communicate with God you must follow the due process.
1. You must be holy for you to hear from him.
2. you must have the Holy spirit in you because Jesus told us that He(the Holy Spirit) will guide us into ALL TRUTHS when he comes into us.
In this days of the Holy Spirit, God speaks to us thru the Holy Spirit and no more like in the days of Elijah. The Holy Spirit also remains the best interpreter of the scriptures. And of course you know that all scriptures are written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
For you to be holy you must come to God with a broken and contrite heart, when he has washed you with the blood of Jesus you ask him for the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes into you nobody will tell you. Same also when God cleanses your heart from all unrighteousness both the ones committed in thoughts, actions and in words. By the time you experience these in your life, you will see God answering you smoothly. We are created in God's image and as human being we like people reaching out to us through certain procedure, same with God. He has his procedures, Elijah, Moses, Peter, Paul, James etc followed it and they enjoyed God to the extent that they were not afraid to die for the course of the gospel.

alexleo:

I still insist that you should have a serious encounter with God who can best clear you. It is not fair enough for you to allow other people to tell you reason why God took certain actions. For example, If i take an action and you want to find out why i took the action, wouldn't it be best to hear directly from me than reading what other people make out of my action as my reason for doing it(as you are doing here now and in the books you said you ve read). Investigative journalism requires that you have a direct contact with an environment or person or thing you are investigating in order to come out with a solid and complete report. They take all the pains that is also involved to make sure they carry out a thorough investigation. Now, you have an issue with God over some actions he took and here you are looking for books and people that ll explain to you why God took that action. My dear brother thats not fair and balanced enough. None of us can give you better explanation than God himself. And for you to communicate with God you must follow the due process.
1. You must be holy for you to hear from him.
2. you must have the Holy spirit in you because Jesus told us that He(the Holy Spirit) will guide us into ALL TRUTHS when he comes into us.
In this days of the Holy Spirit, God speaks to us thru the Holy Spirit and no more like in the days of Elijah. The Holy Spirit also remains the best interpreter of the scriptures. And of course you know that all scriptures are written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
For you to be holy you must come to God with a broken and contrite heart, when he has washed you with the blood of Jesus you ask him for the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes into you nobody will tell you. Same also when God cleanses your heart from all unrighteousness both the ones committed in thoughts, actions and in words. By the time you experience these in your life, you will see God answering you smoothly. We are created in God's image and as human being we like people reaching out to us through certain procedure, same with God. He has his procedures, Elijah, Moses, Peter, Paul, James etc followed it and they enjoyed God to the extent that they were not afraid to die for the course of the gospel.

The last time you spoke to god what specifically did he tell you?. . .

mazaje:

The last time you spoke to god what specifically did he tell you?. . .

Please be honest with me. Do you guys deliberately use the lowercase when referring to God, out of spite?

Because even in English it makes no sense to use lowercase for a proper noun! And this is a proper noun, since you're talking about a God in particular

InesQor:

Please be honest with me. Do you guys deliberately use the lowercase when referring to God, out of spite?

Because even in English it makes no sense to use lowercase for a proper noun! And this is a proper noun, since you're talking about a God in particular

god

dog


common nouns do not need capitalisation.

mazaje:

The last time you spoke to god what specifically did he tell you?. . .

The last time i checked, your I.D here remains mazaje and not Uyi Iredia. So i ve got no reply for you. Am here for Uyi only. Thanks.

"God" is not a common noun in Mazaje's context. It's a proper noun.

I can say:
- god of thunder
- a god
- gods
- your god
- my god
- god of Jerome
and I'll be correct.

I can't say "Last time you spoke to god" and be correct. It's wrong English.

InesQor: "God" is not a common noun in Mazaje's context. It's a proper noun.

I can say:
- god of thunder
- a god
- gods
- your god
- my god
- god of Jerome
and I'll be correct.

I can't say "Last time you spoke to god" and be correct. It's wrong English.

You are just giving yourself unnecessary headache. They are referring to whatever god (may be god of thunder or god of ukwungwo)which is not our 'God'. Ignore them and face more important things. You people have time for useless posts and writings.

alexleo:

You are just giving yourself unnecessary headache. They are referring to whatever god (may be god of thunder or god of ukwungwo)which is not our 'God'. Ignore them and face more important things. You people have time for useless posts and writings.

. . .Rememeber your last challenge to all the atheist in the house that FAILED TERRIBLY?. . .https://www.nairaland.com/445085/chalenge-huxleykay-17ogaga4luv-other-atheists#6032417. . . .You forgot the fact that your god failed you and refused to show up. . .he remained as imaginary as always and never showed up to help you out. . .Now you are still here spewing more drivel, eh?. . .

mazaje:

. . .Rememeber your last challenge to all the atheist in the house that FAILED TERRIBLY?. . .https://www.nairaland.com/445085/chalenge-huxleykay-17ogaga4luv-other-atheists#6032417. . . .You forgot the fact that your god failed you and refused to show up. . .he remained as imaginary as always and never showed up to help you out. . .Now you are still here spewing more drivel, eh?. . .

REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I REPLIED YOU HERE I TOLD YOU AM NOT HERE FOR YOU BUT FOR UYI IREDIA

Uyi Iredia:

Of course, I didn't set out to show my stance was tentative.



Who's talking about babies ? You aren't seriouss.



Yes, it is. You failed to PROPERLY reply me even after I had presented a definition of forgiveness.



What else do I need ? Nothing ! I have a sense of right and wrong; I'm told God is loving, therefore anything that contradicts that should be questioned. Now ! Is wiping out whole villages of men, women and children loving ? Is sentencing a man and woman and all their descendants to death and suffering for eating a forbidden apple loving ? Is killing a sinless person in order to forgive a sinful people loving ?



Anything that contradicts the concept of love would be what God shouldn't do.



Actually, you have. You have FAILED to present REASONS as to why God is loving despite what I wrote.

Ok, my brother, let's take it from the top, shall we?

You said:

I no longer believe the Christian God is one filled with love. For I can no longer ignore the brutality of killing a supposed sinless child in order to forgive a people. As an atheist rightly asked; why not just forgive ? Neither do I agree with the wiping out of villages and cities as documented in the OT or the extremely harsh curse in the garden for a crime. A God of love doesn't indiscriminately kill or punish those who had nothing to do with the crime as done in thwe garden or as stated when God said he punishes down to the 3rd and 4th generation of sinners. Put simply, I no longer believe (as I once did) that the Christian God is loving.

The arguments in the above are:

A
1. It is loving to forgive anyone.

2. It is possible and loving to just forgive.

3. It is brutal to kill a sinless child in order to forgive anyone.

4. The Christian God killed a sinless child in order to forgive a people.

5. Therefore the Christian God is not loving.


AND


B
1. It is not loving to wipe out villages and cities.

2. It is not loving to lay harsh curses for crimes in gardens.

3. The Christian God wiped out villages and cities and laid a harsh curse for a crime in a garden.

4. Therefore the Christian God is not loving.


AND


C
1. A God of love does not indiscriminately kill or punish those who had nothing to do with the crime in the garden.

2. A God of love does not punish down to the 3rd and 4th generations of sinners.

3. The Christian God indiscriminately kills and punishes those who had nothing to do with the crime in the garden.

4. The Christian God punishes down to the 3rd and 4th generations of sinners.

5. Therefore the Christian God is not a God of love.


These are the three arguments that you made. All I have done all this time is address the premises of A and you have continued to complain that I'm not addressing your points. How am I not? If your understanding of forgiveness is wrong, then your argument A is invalid. But you don't want your understanding of the principle examined.

I misconstrued your point about the baby. I was seeing it in the light of argument B. I apologize for that. I haven't even touched on argument C.

Now, if we're going to get anywhere with this discussion, you have to allow your arguments to be examined. If you're not, we can quit this right now. If you are, then let us continue from where we stopped with forgiveness.

My question was, "does the act of forgiveness imply that the debt or offence is treated as never having happened or not?"

InesQor: "God" is not a common noun in Mazaje's context. It's a proper noun.

I can say:
- god of thunder
- a god
- gods
- your god
- my god
- god of Jerome
and I'll be correct.

I can't say "Last time you spoke to god" and be correct. It's wrong English.

god is not a name like Yahweh. Try again.

I am a god of se.x<<<< no capitalisation needed

Oh my. After my long explanation differentiating common and proper nouns? I didn't even realize it was LogicBoy I was even talking to. Never mind, man.

InesQor: Oh my. After my long explanation differentiating common and proper nouns? I didn't even realize it was LogicBoy I was even talking to. Never mind, man.

You diggin' him now finally, aren't you? He's as brain-dead as they come, bro.