PAGAN 9JA:





ID.IOT! ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

kalb means HEART!

It was just an example!

It has nothing to do with Qiblah or pre-islam or whatever.

ladionline: Hello Tony, I know you will buy into macof theory of evolution. Well i dont because Darwinian theory is 'politico', 'precept of biology'. Just type in 'Darwin is a racist' to google and study the feedback. Imagine if his precept had been possible! I will be moaning in one portacabin now if not yet extinted. There is eternity of difference between 'science fantasy' and 'fantastic science'. [b]Those folks on the ijebu thread are die-hard science fantasists, rumbling endlessly in selfish prudence of their knowledge without truce forever. [/b]Fantastic science is ability to explain the obvious with minimal word and resource usage for maximal, durable and verifiable applications, with nothing to do with your biases. These punks are zealot and overtrained geeks obsessed with biological doctrines and academic 'dogma'. They are pathetically busy with the burden of proof.

ladionline: Hello Tony, I know you will buy into macof theory of evolution. Well i dont because Darwinian theory is 'politico', 'precept of biology'. Just type in 'Darwin is a racist' to google and study the feedback. Imagine if his precept had been possible! I will be moaning in one portacabin now if not yet extinted. There is eternity of difference between 'science fantasy' and 'fantastic science'. Those folks on the ijebu thread are die-hard science fantasists, rumbling endlessly in selfish prudence of their knowledge without truce forever. Fantastic science is ability to explain the obvious with minimal word and resource usage for maximal, durable and verifiable applications, with nothing to do with your biases. These punks are zealot and overtrained geeks obsessed with biological doctrines and academic 'dogma'. They are pathetically busy with the burden of proof.

TerraCotta:

Fair enough. Oranyan and Oranmiyan are both Yoruba; the Benin version is Omonoyan, I believe. The feminine aspect of Oduduwa is not just in Ketu (although it's more prominent there). Your point about some confusion between Odudua and his daughter is possible, although that wouldn't explain why there are references to a female Odudua elsewhere. My understanding is that both male and female versions refer to a mythical personality and not a real person. There's a similar case with the deity Olokun, who is female in Ife but unquestionably male in Benin.

You ask who sired Ajaka and Sango and again, my suggestion to you is that you compare these traditions to other well-known examples in world mythology. To take a leaf from the rampant speculation in this thread, where did Adam and Eve come from in Judeo-Christian mythology? Who was the Scorpion King's father in ancient Egypt, or Odysseus in ancient Greece? Oduduwa was said to be present at the creation of humanity at Ife; competing myths that depict him as a real person aren't necessarily more realistic.


That's a completely fair question, but it's not one that can be answered with any certainty by history. Archaeologists can tell you that there's proof of occupation of Ife by 350 BC (although this early date has been disputed) and the clear emergence of a politically advanced society by about 800-900 AD (when we start seeing the emergence of potsherd pavements and other notable political/religious architecture). The peak of Ife's art seems to be around 1300 AD, when the most famous of the brass and terracotta heads appear to have been made. Those are the most certain dates we can point to right now if we want to discuss established facts. The rest we wil have to treat carefully as oral traditions that we can verify as truth (Ife was a center of political development and manufacturing of prestige goods like beads, brass art etc) or classify as myth (Ife was the center of the world's creation). I don't have anything against the idea that there was a warrior king named Oduduwa, but there are several reasons to doubt his historical existence so I prefer to classify it amongst the myths.


I don't take it for granted that Sango was a historic personality either (breathing fire and so on as he did) so it doesn't surprise me that his wives turned into rivers. Before the nineteenth century, there were few professional historians in our region of the world--there were bards, royal storytellers and the like. Their job wasn't to maintain an accurate written record of the past; they were retained to chronicle the glorious ancestry of noble families. While they would undoubtedly have to base this on historical events, they would naturally be poets and embellishers as well. As we've seen from Sultan Bello's example, even written records were influenced by religious and political concerns so we can't take them at face value.


Not a problem. When you have a moment (and if you haven't already), the first two chapters of Robert Smith's 'Kingdoms of the Yoruba' include summaries of Prof. Obayemi's archeological work and theories on Yoruba antiquity: http://books.google.com/books?id=ric6OhxbCS0C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=ade+obayemi+yoruba&source=bl&ots=tacfbue9Qp&sig=UJvKt5ntV4B-jGYg3JSpWHa4KjU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YDmSUsvOF5SisQSo-4HoBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=ade%20obayemi%20yoruba&f=false

Katsumoto:

Let's not conflate mythology with accepted reality in other to term it all mythology. You rightly stated that noble families had poets and bards whose jobs were to embellish and create legends of their sponsors.

1. The female Oduduwa is mythical. Similar to the Oduduwa that climbed down a chain. Most historians agree Oduduwa was male. Whilst you may not agree that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, there is sufficient evidence from both Ife and Bini sources to conclude that there was a man called Oduduwa. Bini has no reason to lie about a Chief Oliha traveling to Ife to request for Oduduwa to assume the throne of his fathers. It is another argument whether the man they met at Ife was in fact Ekaladerhan. Both Bini and Ife agree that there was a man called Oduduwa. Ife doesn't exactly date Oduduwa's reign but Bini dates it at 12th/13th century based on the time of Oranmiyan in Bini and the birth of Oba Eweka. [left][/left]

Katsumoto:
2. It may be difficult to date pre-christ Yoruba migrations/life/etc but it's not that difficult with Yoruba 1000 years ago. We can't place Adam & Eve in the same category as Sango/Ajaka. As in one above, Ajaka and Sango were sired by Oranyan. It is universally accepted that Sango's mother is Tapa and he lived with his mother's people until he was called by the Oyo mesi to rescue Ajaka from the Owu. Ife and Bini historians agree that Oranyan was the father of Eweka, Ajaka, and Sango. There is a reason why Ife and Bini argue about who is who's father. Ife states that it sired Bini because Oranyan's son became King and Bini states that it sired Ife because Ekaladerhan/Oduduwa was king at Ife.

Katsumoto:
3. Very important - Oduduwa is not the progenitor of the Yoruba and that is why Ijebu reference does not go to him. Oduduwa being present at the creation of the world is Ife mythology. It is not Yoruba mythology. The battles between Oduduwa and Obatala has both real and mythological versions. Mythology - 1) Oduduwa was female and Obatala's wife 2) Oduduwa climbed down a chain and completed the job Olodunmare asked Obatala to do (create the world), hence the feud between them. Reality - Oduduwa met Obatala at Ife and fought him. There are various versions of this battle. 1) The people revolted and made Oduduwa king (Bini version) 2) Oduduwa invaded with a party (Ife), hence the celebration of this battle at Ife. Oduduwa's children established many kingdoms, hence why his version of creation is told in most places. Ifa was present at Ife through Orunmila and it is said that Ifa foretold of Oduduwa's emergence. Obayemi's works is proof of Yoruba pre-dating Oduduwa. Yoruba history is similar to British history. The creation of the start of the British nation is credited to Saxons. They came with their language and the first English kings were Saxons. But there were Britons on the island before the Saxon invasion.

Katsumoto:
4. We should not class everything as myth simply because there is some embellishment. We must try to identify what is real and ignore the legends. To doubt Oduduwa is to doubt Oranmiyan, Eweka, Sango and all the kings who came after them. I am not really trying to convince you but only that you need to come up with something stronger than the notion that since there is some myth, then everything must be mythology. There is mythology about Sango but should we doubt his existence as well? There is mythology about Odysseus but his existence is confirmed in Greek, Turkish, and Italian history. And while there is some controversy about his father, it is generally accepted that Laertes was his father.

Katsumoto:

Let's not conflate mythology with accepted reality in other to term it all mythology. You rightly stated that noble families had poets and bards whose jobs were to embellish and create legends of their sponsors.

1. The female Oduduwa is mythical. Similar to the Oduduwa that climbed down a chain. Most historians agree Oduduwa was male. Whilst you may not agree that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, there is sufficient evidence from both Ife and Bini sources to conclude that there was a man called Oduduwa. Bini has no reason to lie about a Chief Oliha traveling to Ife to request for Oduduwa to assume the throne of his fathers. It is another argument whether the man they met at Ife was in fact Ekaladerhan. Both Bini and Ife agree that there was a man called Oduduwa. Ife doesn't exactly date Oduduwa's reign but Bini dates it at 12th/13th century based on the time of Oranmiyan in Bini and the birth of Oba Eweka. [left][/left]

Katsumoto:
2. It may be difficult to date pre-christ Yoruba migrations/life/etc but it's not that difficult with Yoruba 1000 years ago. We can't place Adam & Eve in the same category as Sango/Ajaka. As in one above, Ajaka and Sango were sired by Oranyan. It is universally accepted that Sango's mother is Tapa and he lived with his mother's people until he was called by the Oyo mesi to rescue Ajaka from the Owu. Ife and Bini historians agree that Oranyan was the father of Eweka, Ajaka, and Sango. There is a reason why Ife and Bini argue about who is who's father. Ife states that it sired Bini because Oranyan's son became King and Bini states that it sired Ife because Ekaladerhan/Oduduwa was king at Ife.

Katsumoto:
3. Very important - Oduduwa is not the progenitor of the Yoruba and that is why Ijebu reference does not go to him. Oduduwa being present at the creation of the world is Ife mythology. It is not Yoruba mythology. The battles between Oduduwa and Obatala has both real and mythological versions. Mythology - 1) Oduduwa was female and Obatala's wife 2) Oduduwa climbed down a chain and completed the job Olodunmare asked Obatala to do (create the world), hence the feud between them. Reality - Oduduwa met Obatala at Ife and fought him. There are various versions of this battle. 1) The people revolted and made Oduduwa king (Bini version) 2) Oduduwa invaded with a party (Ife), hence the celebration of this battle at Ife. Oduduwa's children established many kingdoms, hence why his version of creation is told in most places. Ifa was present at Ife through Orunmila and it is said that Ifa foretold of Oduduwa's emergence. Obayemi's works is proof of Yoruba pre-dating Oduduwa. Yoruba history is similar to British history. The creation of the start of the British nation is credited to Saxons. They came with their language and the first English kings were Saxons. But there were Britons on the island before the Saxon invasion.

Katsumoto:
4. We should not class everything as myth simply because there is some embellishment. We must try to identify what is real and ignore the legends. To doubt Oduduwa is to doubt Oranmiyan, Eweka, Sango and all the kings who came after them. I am not really trying to convince you but only that you need to come up with something stronger than the notion that since there is some myth, then everything must be mythology. There is mythology about Sango but should we doubt his existence as well? There is mythology about Odysseus but his existence is confirmed in Greek, Turkish, and Italian history. And while there is some controversy about his father, it is generally accepted that Laertes was his father.

macof:
The female Oduduwa which Alaketu talks about must be one of Oduduwa's daughters whose son is The first Alaketu.
In Yoruba Spirituality , Oduduwa has been regarded as the personification of the Earth usually portrayed as wife of Obatala, like in Greak spirituality Gaia is wife of Uranus, in canaanite spirituality, asherah is wife of El.

but there's every reason to believe the human Oduduwa was male, The issue now is where he was from. I still dont believe that Bini story
does it even matter where Oduduwa came from? fact is oba of bini, alaafin of Oyo and other major king of Yorubaland are his direct descendants

Oduduwa in creation is not Oduduwa the human. Oduduwa in creation is a personification of an unseen force, the dark energy that formed matter.
Ife mythology is not Yoruba mythology In wat way? Ife is the beginning of Yoruba, so why put a difference?




No! We shouldn't ignore wat seems like a myth but understand it and interpret the use of personification

Tony Spike: On a thread like this, several inputs emerge and I do appreciate true historians like Terracotta and Katsumoto who are sharing their knowledge in these area of Yoruba history based on their own painstaking research. I am here to learn and I am very open to knowledge because I am a student in my own field of pursuit also. However, I have discovered that there are so many angles to Yoruba history each with its own politics, culture, religious inclinations and social perception. For example, I am surprised that the Oduduwa legend was ascribed a female personality by some Yoruba groups as explained by Terracotta. As far as my primary and High School days, I was taught about the mythical Oduduwa who descended from Heaven via chain with a cock and palm seedlings (I think). I have considered my personal research into Yoruba history as my own way of understanding the past of my people. It has paid off so far and I'm glad about that. In my family line, my great grandfather was the chief custodian of the King's burial rite (somewhere among the Eastern Yoruba clans) and he was a specifically titled for that purpose. I am saying this to disprove someone who suggested I am an 'Akata'.

As a researcher, one of the things I've learnt is that knowledge itself undergoes several stages of hypothesis and theory to become what it is. The most important aspect to this is establishing the truths through the validation of such knowledge or even history. Validation of ancient history is very rigorous and sometimes, very impossible which is why archaeology is very important. Being impervious to hypothesis without any established basis is a very unwholesome attitude and any researcher should know that. I will hereby watch this thread as a spectator rather than contribute. Thanks to all.

Katsumoto:

I already provided that the female Oduduwa being referred to in Ketu must be Oduduwa's grand-daughter who sired the first Alaketu or married the first Alaketu. Everything else you stated is in line with my posts. For me, it matters where Oduduwa is from because it establishes, for me, the period of his reign. It is precisely why I don't believe the Middle Eastern origins of Oduduwa as held by some Yoruba historians and Dierk Lange. According to the arabian tales held by Muslims in Northern Nigeria and Mali, Oduduwa is said to be the son of Sargon, but Sargon II ruled about 600 BC. Did Oduduwa live for 1800 years? That story has many holes.

For me, the Bini story is most plausible. For the Bini story to be untrue, Oduduwa himself would have had to have been a fraud. That is, he would have had to have pretended to be the lost Bini prince, when in fact, he wasn't.

And Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. Your holding on to Ife being the beginning of Yoruba is biased because you are from Ife. Ife birthed many other Yoruba kingdoms through Oduduwa's offspring. Yoruba spirituality birthed in Ife. The history of the Niger-Congo language family puts the Yoruba separating from the Igbo, Edo, Ijo about 3000 years ago. This predates Oduduwa.

Katsumoto:

I already provided that the female Oduduwa being referred to in Ketu must be Oduduwa's grand-daughter who sired the first Alaketu or married the first Alaketu. Everything else you stated is in line with my posts. For me, it matters where Oduduwa is from because it establishes, for me, the period of his reign. It is precisely why I don't believe the Middle Eastern origins of Oduduwa as held by some Yoruba historians and Dierk Lange. According to the arabian tales held by Muslims in Northern Nigeria and Mali, Oduduwa is said to be the son of Sargon, but Sargon II ruled about 600 BC. Did Oduduwa live for 1800 years? That story has many holes.

For me, the Bini story is most plausible. For the Bini story to be untrue, Oduduwa himself would have had to have been a fraud. That is, he would have had to have pretended to be the lost Bini prince, when in fact, he wasn't.

And Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. Your holding on to Ife being the beginning of Yoruba is biased because you are from Ife. Ife birthed many other Yoruba kingdoms through Oduduwa's offspring. Yoruba spirituality birthed in Ife. The history of the Niger-Congo language family puts the Yoruba separating from the Igbo, Edo, Ijo about 3000 years ago. This predates Oduduwa.

shymexx:

I don't know if you included me in this "box", however, I don't deal dwell too much on science/epistles/theories/hypothesis/fantasies hence why all my rebuttals on that thread were short and precise. I only post a few historical facts, based on timeline, just to connect a few dots to see if the far East claims might be plausible. Not really a big fan of genetics, btw.

Anyway, I just want to ask you a few questions since it seems you're very knowledgeable when it comes to Yoruba etymology. Can you tell me why some places on Lagos Island have "Idu" as the prefix to their names? IDU-mota, IDU-magbo, IDU-ganran et al? I saw this on an online publication - however certain sources said, "Idu" also means "Edo." While alternative sources said, "Idu" is an Ijebu word - hence why those places with "idu" prefix are Ijebu settlements on Lagos Island.

Thanks in advance.

Katsumoto:

I already provided that the female Oduduwa being referred to in Ketu must be Oduduwa's grand-daughter who sired the first Alaketu or married the first Alaketu. Everything else you stated is in line with my posts. For me, it matters where Oduduwa is from because it establishes, for me, the period of his reign. It is precisely why I don't believe the Middle Eastern origins of Oduduwa as held by some Yoruba historians and Dierk Lange. According to the arabian tales held by Muslims in Northern Nigeria and Mali, Oduduwa is said to be the son of Sargon, but Sargon II ruled about 600 BC. Did Oduduwa live for 1800 years? That story has many holes.

For me, the Bini story is most plausible. For the Bini story to be untrue, Oduduwa himself would have had to have been a fraud. That is, he would have had to have pretended to be the lost Bini prince, when in fact, he wasn't.

And Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. Your holding on to Ife being the beginning of Yoruba is biased because you are from Ife. Ife birthed many other Yoruba kingdoms through Oduduwa's offspring. Yoruba spirituality birthed in Ife. The history of the Niger-Congo language family puts the Yoruba separating from the Igbo, Edo, Ijo about 3000 years ago. This predates Oduduwa.

macof:

Mr man I am not Ife, I am Ekiti and my people trace their origin to Ile-Ife.

Ife is the beginning of wat we know as Yoruba today.

Yoruba, Edo, Ijo, Igbo are not are were probably never one because only Yoruba people recognize the Ife origin.

Igbo's aren't sure where their first home was

And ijo claim to be the origin of Igodomigodo

So I see nothing more than neighborhood relationship between Ife, Igodomigodo(former Edo) and ijo. I have never been interested in Igbo history but I don't see any direct connecting with Ife

MetaPhysical: Katsumoto,

What was the name of the land Oduduwa met when he arrived in what today we call Ile Ife?

What language did the people speak that he met on ground?

What were their belief and faith system?

MetaPhysical:

The only person who theorized the idea of Oduduwa being Sargon's son was Lange. No Arabian record exist of Oduduwa being the son of Sargon. No Northern or Mali record exist for this. However, there Assyrian records that mention Duwduw or Audud.

Katsumoto:

Let's not conflate mythology with accepted reality in other to term it all mythology. You rightly stated that noble families had poets and bards whose jobs were to embellish and create legends of their sponsors.

1. The female Oduduwa is mythical. Similar to the Oduduwa that climbed down a chain. Most historians agree Oduduwa was male. Whilst you may not agree that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, there is sufficient evidence from both Ife and Bini sources to conclude that there was a man called Oduduwa.

Bini has no reason to lie about a Chief Oliha traveling to Ife to request for Oduduwa to assume the throne of his fathers. It is another argument whether the man they met at Ife was in fact Ekaladerhan. Both Bini and Ife agree that there was a man called Oduduwa.

Ife doesn't exactly date Oduduwa's reign but Bini dates it at 12th/13th century based on the time of Oranmiyan in Bini and the birth of Oba Eweka.

2. It may be difficult to date pre-christ Yoruba migrations/life/etc but it's not that difficult with Yoruba 1000 years ago. We can't place Adam & Eve in the same category as Sango/Ajaka. As in one above, Ajaka and Sango were sired by Oranyan. It is universally accepted that Sango's mother is Tapa and he lived with his mother's people until he was called by the Oyo mesi to rescue Ajaka from the Owu. Ife and Bini historians agree that Oranyan was the father of Eweka, Ajaka, and Sango.

There is a reason why Ife and Bini argue about who is who's father. Ife states that it sired Bini because Oranyan's son became King and Bini states that it sired Ife because Ekaladerhan/Oduduwa was king at Ife.

3. Very important - Oduduwa is not the progenitor of the Yoruba and that is why Ijebu reference does not go to him. Oduduwa being present at the creation of the world is Ife mythology. It is not Yoruba mythology. The battles between Oduduwa and Obatala has both real and mythological versions. Mythology - 1) Oduduwa was female and Obatala's wife 2) Oduduwa climbed down a chain and completed the job Olodunmare asked Obatala to do (create the world), hence the feud between them. Reality - Oduduwa met Obatala at Ife and fought him.

There are various versions of this battle. 1) The people revolted and made Oduduwa king (Bini version) 2) Oduduwa invaded with a party (Ife), hence the celebration of this battle at Ife. Oduduwa's children established many kingdoms, hence why his version of creation is told in most places. Ifa was present at Ife through Orunmila and it is said that Ifa foretold of Oduduwa's emergence. Obayemi's works is proof of Yoruba pre-dating Oduduwa.

Yoruba history is similar to British history. The creation of the start of the British nation is credited to Saxons. They came with their language and the first English kings were Saxons. But there were Britons on the island before the Saxon invasion.

4. We should not class everything as myth simply because there is some embellishment. We must try to identify what is real and ignore the legends.

To doubt Oduduwa is to doubt Oranmiyan, Eweka, Sango and all the kings who came after them. I am not really trying to convince you but only that you need to come up with something stronger than the notion that since there is some myth, then everything must be mythology.

There is mythology about Sango but should we doubt his existence as well? There is mythology about Odysseus but his existence is confirmed in Greek, Turkish, and Italian history. And while there is some controversy about his father, it is generally accepted that Laertes was his father.

There has recently been something of a revolution in our understanding of the formation of centralised states in this area. Most earlier accounts, from Crowther and Johnson onwards, started with the arrival of Oduduwa at Ife, either from heaven or from the Middle East (Johnson,1921: 5-7), and the subsequent migration of his descendants to found their own kingdoms elsewhere.

At first the archaeological evidence tended to support this type of approach. The spectacular finds at Ife (Willett, 1967) suggested a wealthy, sophisticated culture with kingship institutions already established. Radiocarbon dates put the 'classical' period of Ife, art at about A.D. 1000-1400. This neatly tallied with reconstructions of chronology based on the surviving kinglists of states like Oyo, Ketu, Benin and Ijebu. Their foundations were generally placed between the 13th and 15th centuries - perhaps about 1300 (Smith, 1969: 34), and the tradition that their founders came from Ife, was accepted at face value by many authors.

[b] Recent accounts are more sceptical about the validity of the oral traditions, and there is also a larger body of linguistic and archaeological evidence available. Interest has shifted away from the origins and careers of the sons of Oduduwa to more general questions of the evolution of social and political organisation among the Yoruba and their neighbours (Obayemi,1976). The Ife creation myths, though undoubtedly the most widely diffused, are not unique: Obayemi reports similar traditions from Igbomina (1976: 232). As Law has shown (1973b), all the versions we have of the myths of origin have been collected since the mid-19th century, and have clearly been distorted in the light of later political events. The best-known example is Johnson's History in which they are used to justify Oyo's claim to primacy among the Yoruba kingdoms, and the Alafn's claim to a measure of authority over other rulers.
Law is also sceptical about the dates proposed for the foundation of Oyo (1977: 33-4). The early part of the Oyo kinglist, he suggests, is a fabrication. The earliest rulers listed were probably mythical rather than historical, while some names of later rulers have been omitted (1977: 49). There are difficulties in relying on average lengths of reigns to reconstruct the chronology. After 1730, Oyo switched from a system of primogeniture and reigns up to 1836 were generally short (1977: 56-. Presumably these difficulties with the kinglist are not peculiar to Oyo.[/b]

Taken together, the linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests firstly that main processes of settlement and cultural differentiation had taken place before the period to which the myths of origin of the present ruling dynasties appear to refer (Obayemi, 1976: 200-1). Secondly, we need no longer assume that political centralisation is a prerequisite for a flourishing tradition of artistic production. Such a tradition exists in northeastern Yorubaland, where political centralisation never took place. Indeed, Obayemi suggests that the 'classical' period of Ife, art was the product of a less centralised political system, pre-dating the establishment of the present dynasty (1976: 211).

Obayemi's conclusion is that the Oduduwa myths in Ife reflect a process of political centralisation which took place at an unknown date, but which was not a prerequisite for the development of Ife art. A parallel process took place in some other, though not all, Yoruba areas, as well as among the Edo, Nupe and other neighbouring ethnic groups. It is unlikely that there was a single centre from which kings were sent to rule other states, though this raises the question of why these other states should have later acknowledged Ife, primacy in the way that they did. One possible suggestion is that Ife was probably the source of the glass beads from which the crowns of the Yoruba oba were made (Obayemi,1976: 204-5).

Katsumoto:

Don't introduce notions into my posts in a bid to weaken it. I didn't state that Igbo, Ijo, or Edo were from Ife. I stated that linguists believe the Yoruba sparated from the Igbo, Ijo, Edo approximately 3,000 years ago. You can hold on to your Yoruba supremacist views; that's your prerogative but in the face of known migratory patterns, it is false. Every language has an origin and it doesn't exist in isolation. All languages belong to a language tree and these language trees provide clues about migratory patterns of all groups.

Migration from Ife doesn't mean there weren't other Yoruba groups who never set foot in Ife. Perhaps you guys want to start arguing that the Ijebu are not Yoruba.Ife is the beginning of Yoruba civilization, spirituality, societal structures and kingdom building but Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. You can take that to the bank.

Katsumoto:

Don't introduce notions into my posts in a bid to weaken it. I didn't state that Igbo, Ijo, or Edo were from Ife. I stated that linguists believe the Yoruba sparated from the Igbo, Ijo, Edo approximately 3,000 years ago. You can hold on to your Yoruba supremacist views; that's your prerogative but in the face of known migratory patterns, it is false. Every language has an origin and it doesn't exist in isolation. All languages belong to a language tree and these language trees provide clues about migratory patterns of all groups.

Migration from Ife doesn't mean there weren't other Yoruba groups who never set foot in Ife. Perhaps you guys want to start arguing that the Ijebu are not Yoruba.Ife is the beginning of Yoruba civilization, spirituality, societal structures and kingdom building but Ife is not the beginning of Yoruba. You can take that to the bank.

macof:

I only posted wat I understood from ur previous post. You try to link ijo, Edo and Ife even when the people have no stories binding before the existence of Oduduwa

the ijo claim Oduduwa's son lived among them and led them at a time.

The ilaje people are mixed wit Yoruba and ijo

Language similarities doesn't proof they were ones one people.

You seem to forget that ijebuland is mixed wit different people, some that migrated from waddai, some that migrated from Ife and others that aren't accounted for.

Even the final migration into Ijebuland from waddai rested in Ife and were exposed to Ife culture

Katsumoto:

[b]'A language family is a group of languages related by descent from a common ancestor, called the proto-language of that family. [/b]The term comes from the Tree model of language origination in historical linguistics, which makes use of a metaphor comparing languages to people in a biological family tree or in a subsequent modification to species in a phylogenetic tree of evolutionary taxonomy. All the apparently biological terms are used only in the metaphoric sense. No real biology is included in any way in the metaphor. ...... Membership of languages in the same language family is established by comparative linguistics. Daughter languages are said to have a genetic or genealogical relationship; the former term is more current in modern times, but the latter is equally as traditional.'

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Language_family.html

There is a reason why most sub-saharan languages belong to the Niger-Congo language family. There is a reason why no Sub-saharan language is a part of the Indo-European language family. It is not coincidence. You need to re-appraise this Yoruba supremacist view of life starting at Ife and apes suddenly speaking Yoruba. In this day and age, it is very narrow. Similarities in sub-saharan languages is as a result of sub-saharan people all migrating Southwards from the Sudan-Nile corridor.

Yoruba, Edo, Ijo, Igbo all have the same ancestors.

Which Ijo people claim that Oduduwa's son lived among them? The most recent wave of migration has people migrating from Ife to other parts of the SW. During this final wave of migration, the people spoke the same language albeit different dialects. They spoke Yoruba; we aren't aware of any Niger-Congo language becoming extinct with Yoruba migration to the coast.

Which final migration from Waddai to Ijebu are you referring to?

Katsumoto:





Stop asking me questions. I have no intention of playing your game.

You either provide your hypothesis and supporting proof or ignore my posts.

I have asked you repeatedly - WHERE ARE THE YORUBA FROM?

So far, you have argued that the Yoruba share something with Middle Eastern Islam. What is the connection? You have talked about similarities but nothing concrete.

Lange attempted to intellectualize the thoughts of Islamic scholars who believed the Yoruba, Hausa, etc all migrated from the middle east.

Katsumoto:

[b]'A language family is a group of languages related by descent from a common ancestor, called the proto-language of that family. [/b]The term comes from the Tree model of language origination in historical linguistics, which makes use of a metaphor comparing languages to people in a biological family tree or in a subsequent modification to species in a phylogenetic tree of evolutionary taxonomy. All the apparently biological terms are used only in the metaphoric sense. No real biology is included in any way in the metaphor. ...... Membership of languages in the same language family is established by comparative linguistics. Daughter languages are said to have a genetic or genealogical relationship; the former term is more current in modern times, but the latter is equally as traditional.'

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Language_family.html

There is a reason why most sub-saharan languages belong to the Niger-Congo language family. There is a reason why no Sub-saharan language is a part of the Indo-European language family. It is not coincidence. You need to re-appraise this Yoruba supremacist view of life starting at Ife and apes suddenly speaking Yoruba. In this day and age, it is very narrow. Similarities in sub-saharan languages is as a result of sub-saharan people all migrating Southwards from the Sudan-Nile corridor.

Yoruba, Edo, Ijo, Igbo all have the same ancestors.

Which Ijo people claim that Oduduwa's son lived among them? The most recent wave of migration has people migrating from Ife to other parts of the SW. During this final wave of migration, the people spoke the same language albeit different dialects. They spoke Yoruba; we aren't aware of any Niger-Congo language becoming extinct with Yoruba migration to the coast.

Which final migration from Waddai to Ijebu are you referring to?

MetaPhysical:

Calm down my brother, please calm down.

I dont know where Yoruba is from but I know where they are not from. They are not from the land they currently occupy. Im on a quest to find their origin. So far, I have gone into many books, English books, Yoruba books, Arabic books, Hausa books, Jewish books, Egyptian books..

Yoruba books are more confusing than the rest and I will tell you why.

Yorubas, unlike foreigners writing and theorizing the history, have to also live the history. Everything so far written by respectable Yoruba scholars on the history is done so from the perspective of Western ideology, not Yoruba philosophy. In order words, there is a gap between the thoughts and the spirit..we are thinking in foreign language and expressing in foreign language but our nature, emotion, spirit and impulses are Yoruba, not English.

Do me a favour Katsumoto, go and read books on Yoruba written in French and compare with that written in English and you come up with different angle of understanding. Read the one written in Portuguese and compare with that written in English or French and you gain a different angle. Why all these inconsistencies about one history and one people?

Of all the foreign people to come into the hinterlands of Yoruba, Katunga and Ile Ife and Oyo, Arabs were the pioneers. Ibn Khaldun and Batutta as well Baba Ahmed had chronicled their contact with Quorra and Katunga long before Livingstone and the Landers or Mungo Park. The Portuegese came after the Arabs and before the English but they did not go into the interior, they stayed on the coastal waters and this is all they knew of Yoruba.

The Arabs came over the desert and did not go to the coast.

So the Arabs had no knowledge of an existing Yorubaland past Oyo territory and this is why in teir chronicles Oyo is Yoruba, and no where else. They had no knowledge of such.

The Portuguese wrote many things about the coastal people and the riverines but left much untold about Katunga and its glory because they did not know the coastal people had a kingdom farther inland and if they knew it wasnt connected with their trade which prinarily was water dependent.

The first foreigners to make contact with all peoples of Yorubaland were the colonists and was possible only after the Kiriji war. They had made some tractable gains in Lagos, Badagry, Abeokuta and so on and established resettlements and missionary.

By the time the colonists entered into Yoruba proper they discovered that the Muhammedan faith was widespread and even the kings and court were practicing the Sudan traditions.

Their mission was to turn the orientation away from Sudan and into Christianity.

Abeokuta was the seat of Yoruba Chriatianity and missionary work and Crowther was from there and living there..it would be imperative that the Egba dialect should have been adopted as the language and standard of Yoruba Bible and alphabets. Why did they use Oyo as standard?

The land was conquered but the soul of the people has not been conquered. You conquer the people when you steer their culture away from its base beliefs and in the case of Yoruba it had to be done politically because the nation itself is structured politically. The political seat of power is Oyo..and this factored into why they used the Oyo dialect as standard.

They did the same thing in Hausaland. Hausas are structured politically but less sophisticated than Yorubas..so they use the Emirs for indirect rule and taxation and introduced jangali.

Oyo dialect did not have full orthography in English language sounds and meanings and made writing and interpretation impractical. How did they resolve that?

The transliteration was done creating sound match in various European languages where a match exist..even though the meaning was different and not a match and this is how they created a alphabet list for us.

In addition to the fact that our alphabet list is latinized using sounds from different language standards, our alphabet list is missing letters also. This is a great handicap to studying Yoruba and understanding its true history.

This is why I adopt Yoruba sound for my activism here rather than relying on meaning.

..but this alphabet is all we have and so we should make the best of it.

Now, am I completely convinced Yoruba is from AfroAsia? No!

Am I convinced completely that Yoruba is NOT from its current abode in Nigeria? You bet I am!

So where is Yoruba from?

I steer away from Western biases and the Arab biases and go into Yoruba arts, worship, culture, kingship, priesthood, songs, sounds, heirlooms, artifacts, orikis, myths, gods...these are unbiased and truthful spirit of Yoruba itself and thats who I have adopted as my teacher. I want Yoruba to teach me where it is from..and it has done a great job of doing that so far. There are still some loose knots to tie and questions. If I can get an answer to those questions, trust me I will be selling the AfroAsia belief wholeheartedly.

macof:

I see no relationship with Igbo and Yoruba languages ur linguistic historians are flawed because I have personally observed the languages and words similarities doesn't put languages in the same lingual tree.

We have no binding history and don't have same ancestors. Igbos history doesn't link with Ife and they don't have a definite start, Yorubas do and that's Ile Ife.

I never claimed Ife to be the origin of humanity, I speak for myself and Ife is my origin and the origin of Yoruba


ijo claim to have welcomed Adimula from Ife and he had a family there whose descendants left to found Ilaje



The final migration to ijebuland was led by ogboroganda aka Obanta, he got to ijebuland and met people there, his people only mixed with them.

macof:

I see no relationship with Igbo and Yoruba languages ur linguistic historians are flawed because I have personally observed the languages and words similarities doesn't put languages in the same lingual tree.

We have no binding history and don't have same ancestors. Igbos history doesn't link with Ife and they don't have a definite start, Yorubas do and that's Ile Ife.

I never claimed Ife to be the origin of humanity, I speak for myself and Ife is my origin and the origin of Yoruba


ijo claim to have welcomed Adimula from Ife and he had a family there whose descendants left to found Ilaje



The final migration to ijebuland was led by ogboroganda aka Obanta, he got to ijebuland and met people there, his people only mixed with them.

Katsumoto:

Brother,

I apologize for the tone of my post. It appears I mis-understood your complete intentions.

We are in agreement that the Yoruba migrated to the current areas. The next area of my study will be the migration of people into Yorubaland. I am keen to explore Tony Spike's hypothesis about Yoruba/Kemet connections.

I am yet to come in touch with text written about the Yoruba in French but I have read Portuguese and Spanish text. Most of these relate to Yoruba philosophy and spirituality.

I agree about Yoruba not being conquered by any culture or religion. I have often argued that Yoruba spirituality and philosophy is so fluid and powerful that it assimilates other cultures and religions. Hence why a Yoruba can be Muslim and traditionalist or a Christian and traditionalist at the same time. And why a Yoruba family can have Muslims, Christians, and pagans.

Crowther was originally from Iseyin. He wasn't Egba.

macof:

I see no relationship with Igbo and Yoruba languages ur linguistic historians are flawed because I have personally observed the languages and words similarities doesn't put languages in the same lingual tree.

We have no binding history and don't have same ancestors. Igbos history doesn't link with Ife and they don't have a definite start, Yorubas do and that's Ile Ife.

I never claimed Ife to be the origin of humanity, I speak for myself and Ife is my origin and the origin of Yoruba


ijo claim to have welcomed Adimula from Ife and he had a family there whose descendants left to found Ilaje



The final migration to ijebuland was led by ogboroganda aka Obanta, he got to ijebuland and met people there, his people only mixed with them.

MetaPhysical:

Yes, please, Tony Spike's theory of a interconnect between Yoruba and Kemet is a lead worth investigating.

Regardless of what we are looking for in a people we are bound to find its copy practiced by another people elsewhere.

Yoruba has a place called Oregun. Lets get all places on the earth named similarly; we get Oregano, Oregon, Origene, and so on.. These are places named as marker for origin or source.

There is a universality in the nomenclature but we dont know if the sense of application is the same for all of them. People of Oregun are distant in geography from people in Oregon, Oregano or anywhere else named after origin and so we should not expect anything common between them. If we find similarity in the arts, the customs, the words, sacrifice and rituals between Oregun and Oregon, then those exact similarities should equally occur in Oregano and Origine. If not, it would mean something unique exist and is shared between Oregun and Oregon and the deeper we inspect these commonalities the more revelations are discovered exclusive to these two that are not duplicated anywhere else. We should not now latch onto the name marker alone and say linguists and scholars have looked at them and concluded its nothing more than a naming protocol that tie Oregun to Oregon.

ladionline:

Given the chance, you will emptied the Afroasia to Yoruba, but Ibos who are natural kin of the black race Yoruba can not be spotted with Yoruba, they do not have a Sango and does not read Qur'an.