MetaPhysical:

I dont know why you should keep going in circle over the same stuff I already settled with you perharps several pages ago. In case you missed it, here it is again:

1. I am not a linguist or etymologist, neither am I an historian.

2. I am a Yoruba and there is nothing in my culture and custom that says only historians or linguists or etymologists can act as authority on the traditions of Yoruba origin.

3. What I have submitted are my theories, they are not prescribed, take it as it applies to your interest or input.

4. What I have submitted on "letters"; "sounds"; and "words" are available for you or anyone to test for their validity. They are truthful and revealing.

5. Africa was explored by three interest groups and from three different directions. Yoruba is in the lower Niger section of the Sudan.

The two groups were in order

Arabs
Portuguese
Allied Europe

The Arabs were pioneers and followed the Nile and Andalusia into Negro Africa. They did not come across the desert as is often incorrectly told. In those days people traveled long distances using rivers and large bodies of water for navigation. So from East they used Nile but in West they used Niger. The Arabs did not cross below the Niger into Yoruba country but they visited the capital in Katunga and were familiar with Yoruba traders they met in Timbuktu, Wagadugu, Kano, Kuka Wadaye, Darfur and Kodorfa.

The Portuguese came after them and over water into the coastlands of West Africa. They traded with the coastal Yorubas and riverines people, did not go into Yoruba country.

Early European explorers used the maps and chronicles of Arab explorers to come into Africa. Naturally they followed the Arab tracks, using the Nile and Mauritania. They did not challenge the Sahara.

This is why Clapperton and Landers had heard about Yorubas before they even entered into Yoruba capital. They were early explorers and did not enter into Yoruba country but stayed in Katunga, Old Oyo on the first trip. On their second trip, they went further inland and even to Badagry.

The Colonists came much later, mid to late 1800s. England colonized Nigeria. Much of what they knew on landing was the chronicles of Arab travellers and Early recordings of European explorers. They knew far more about the North than they did with any other part of Nigeria...even though they arrived on the ocean coast, thousands of mile away from Hausaland. They were far more familiar with what to expect in North before they started to administer the North or to amalgamate them.

Colonial administrators had read about Yoruba but had no thorough familiarity until in the 1890s and turn of 1900.

There were two things that shielded Yoruba from outside inquisitions.

A. Imperial power - Yorubaland was not available for foreign invasion or acquisition and so early explorers and visitores would pay courtesy visit to the capital but stay out of the country.

B. Internecine wars - even the Colonialists did not care to penetrate inland into Yorubaland after a taste of devastating losses in war with Yorubas in Lagos in 1855 and with Ijebus shortly afterward..not minding they ended up defeating the Yorubas.

I have told you that the records exist of Yoruba migration and Bello clearly inferred that he is not the originator of the Yoruba/Kanaan story. Bello only had intermingling with Yorubas, Nupes, Kanuris, Gogobirs, Arabs, Berbers. So if it was told by anyone of the non- Yorubas with proven footholds in Arabia, then it can only be true as a authentic record. If he heard it from a Yoruba then the original source was internal and needs to be investigated for proof within, not from outside.




I want to learn. You have said many times that you intervoewed these people. Where is the record of your research and results? Bring it here so I can learn what I dont yet know.

Instead of criticing what Im producing, which as you can see is very helpful, why not share with us what you have produced. Bring your own theory.

As I said already these Western society that some of us worship are sitting, solidly, on myths and theories produced and institutionalized from people like Homer, Plato, Derwin, Shakespeare and so on.

PhysicsMHD: : “An early example of such traditions of migration is given by the Sokoto scholar Muhammad Bello, according to whom the Yoruba were 'remnants of the Banu Kan'an, which is the tribe of Nimrud' who had been expelled from Iraq.” - The Oyo Empire: c.1600-c.1836 (1977) by Robin Law. Law's source for this is E.J. Arnett's translation of Rise of the Sokoto Fulani, p.16, which can be found on Thomas Hodgkin's Nigerian Perspectives, p.78

I should point out that the “Yoruba” referred to here are specifically the Oyo, who were known as the Yoruba at that time to others.

As for the meaning of the statement itself, my interpretation is:

Banu Kan'an = Brothers Canaanite = the Canaanites, who are related to or ancestral to the Phoenicians, so he might have been referring to the later remnants of the Phoenicians
Nimrud = Nimrod, the famous early Mesopotamian king, could possibly be related to or the ancestor of the Canaanites/Phoenicians
Iraq = Mesopotamia


But what Mesopotamian characteristics did Oyo have? Is there anything Mesopotamian about Oyo culture and religion? I don’t see anything related there.


For the direct quote:

Bello – The Origins of the Yoruba3

“The country of Yoruba is extensive and has streams and forest and rocks and hills. There are many curious and beautiful things in it. The ships of Christians come there. The people of Yoruba are descended from the Bani Kan'an and the kindred of Nimrud. Now the reason for their having settled in the west according to what we are told is that Ya'rub ibn Qahtan drove them out of 'Iraq to the westwards and they traveled between Misr4 and Habash5 until they reached Yoruba. It happened that they left a portion of their people in every country they passed. It is said that the Sudanese who live up on the hills are all kindred; so also the people of Yauri are their kindred. The people of Yauri resemble those of Nufe[Nupe] in appearance. In the land of Yoruba are found the birds green in colour which are called 'babgha'' in Arabic and which we call 'Aku'.1 It is a bird which talks and is beautiful.” - Muhammad Bello, Infaq al-maisur (1812), p. 16. taken from Nigerian Perspectives, 2nd ed. (1975) by Thomas Hodgkin.

Thomas Hodgkin's notes:

3. 'Yoruba' in this context refers specifically to Oyo, not (as in current usage) to the Yoruba-speaking peoples in general.
4. Egypt
5. Ethiopia
1. Parrots.


So this is a journey from Mesopotamia, through Egypt and east Africa all the way to Oyo, Nigeria?

Not all that plausible, really. undecided


On an unrelated note, the book The Oyo Empire c.1600-c.1836: A West African Imperialism in the Era of the Atlantic Slave Trade by Robin Law is possibly one of the best books ever written on any single African state. It's extremely well researched, masterfully presented, very well-reasoned, balanced, objective, and just a damn good read, overall. It also corrects numerous errors and pieces of political propaganda found in Samuel Johnson's classic History of the Yorubas. A very interesting read on one of the most ambitious West African Empires. I highly recommend the book to anyone interested in African history. I'm not even Yoruba and I read the book and came away thoroughly impressed with the organization and ambition of the empire, and got a better understanding of how and why it ended.



[Edit: After rechecking my source, I see that the Muhammad Bello referenced above is in fact, the same as Sultan Bello. Sorry for the error.]

9jacrip:



I meant going in circles over trying to digest your theory.

1. Since you're not a linguist or etymologist, nor an historian then I do not see any reason why you should venture into your point number 4. There are many people even of Arab and Yoruba origins respectively who are into either of those fields and are specialized yet no sounds & words connection have come up from them except you?

9jacrip:



I meant going in circles over trying to digest your theory.

1. Since you're not a linguist or etymologist, nor an historian then I do not see any reason why you should venture into your point number 4. There are many people even of Arab and Yoruba origins respectively who are into either of those fields and are specialized yet no sounds & words connection have come up from them except you?

2 & 3. Nothing in Yoruba also says we should weld ourselves to any other culture. You've once mentioned Yoruba spirituality, does Ifa state anything concerning Arab since it is the embodiment of early Yoruba history?

I love how you outlined the foreign contact with Yoruba, it is beautiful . I see you did that with the principles of writing history, why didn't you just throw all that knowledge away and just write away as you please? For example you used chronology and when I cited how it is not possible for Yoruba to have migrated from Arabia/Mecca based on Chronolonogical arrangement, you said what makes the timing/dating correct because they were invented by westerners etc. You'd said not to follow what the Westerners laid down and textbook approach yet you just did what you advocated against.

Lastly, please show us any reference to the record of Yoruba migration that exists. I'm sure I'm not the only person waiting to go through it. Also please provide corroborating evidence(s) from Arabia and its environs pining Yoruba to Arabs, anything at all aside the rendering of words and sounds which you really should leave to the experts in that field. Nubians said Egyptians were their offshoot/emigrants and there are several records/similarities between both groups, the Bantu migration is supported by archeological and linguistic evidences, it is taught that Native Americans migrated to Americas from Asia and there are supposed records to back this up - why is this not the case for your theory?

Like I once deduced from PhysicsQED's post:



From that, putting our analytical skills to work, it will become clear to us that Bello was referring to Oyo people as the group who migrated from Mecca and not people of Ife while keeping in mind how Oyo came to be.

Finally, Metaphysical, I'm not trying to keep us in a carousel, I'm only trying to draw out the evidences you have from both sides, not to denigrate your intellectual prowess - No. Providing these evidences will put myself and like mindeds who are opposed to your theory to work or shut us up forever. Now, if there's a thread on Edi festival in Ife I will gladly post the work at my disposal for you and others to add to or take away from.

MetaPhysical:

Again, I challenge you to test the sounds and letters I produced for their validity and tell me which one of them is wrong and untruthful.

Also, put the result of your research and interview here for us to see and learn.

'The fact that you may have been an electrician's apprentice doesn't qualify you to be an aerospace engineer, and most people have no trouble understanding that. For some reason, history is seen as an all-comers affair that doesn't require training or verification or references as long as it 'feels good'. In this view, the stories about Yoruba history learned in primary school are enough preparation to dismiss the work of professors who have researched Yoruba history for decades.

It is fine to have your own beliefs about your personal history, but it is not acceptable to project fantasies and ill-conceived speculation on a group with a history as well-documented as Yoruba.'

TerraCotta: This is a very simple and logical point. If readers are not ignorant or trolling, they should understand and accept it. The fact that you may have been an electrician's apprentice doesn't qualify you to be an aerospace engineer, and most people have no trouble understanding that. For some reason, history is seen as an all-comers affair that doesn't require training or verification or references as long as it 'feels good'. In this view, the stories about Yoruba history learned in primary school are enough preparation to dismiss the work of professors who have researched Yoruba history for decades.

It is fine to have your own beliefs about your personal history, but it is not acceptable to project fantasies and ill-conceived speculation on a group with a history as well-documented as Yoruba.

In case other innocent readers are misinformed by the mistaken claims earlier in this thread--there are many, many records of journeys into Yoruba regions and neighboring areas after the Clapperton and Lander books of the 1820s and 1830s. There are so many, we're not sure that there's a full and accurate record of them yet. Yorubas are fortunate to have a well-documented 19th century period, as a matter of fact. Apart from books, there are pamphlets and articles published by Yoruba thinkers, other African visitors and foreigners in daily newspapers, the Church Missionary Society newsletters and elsewhere. Here's a shortlist of the ones I can think of at the moment, although there are many others I can't remember or haven't read about yet:

The most relevant for this discussion are the ones mentioned earlier by Bishop Samuel Ajayi Crowther, since he wrote about regions, cultures and languages he was familiar with as a Yoruba man, and his dictionaries and travelogues were used by the majority of people who wrote after him. Bishop Crowther was followed by Reverend TJ Bowen, David Hinderer, Dr. Martin Delaney and Robert Campbell (two Caribbean-Americans who wrote excellent firsthand books and had a very different perspective on Yoruba and Africans from the European missionaries), Giambattista Scala (an Italian diplomat in Lagos who in the 1860s who also wrote about Abeokuta), Richard Burton and several others.

Then there are the French and Brazilian records to go through, as well as letters, diaries and journals from transatlantic Yoruba families with branches in Lagos, Brazil, Cuba and Sierra Leone. The Alakijas/Assumpcao, Adeniyi-Jones and Sapara-Williams families are prominent examples of these groups and all have family records that haven't been fully explored by academics. A very good summary of the Yoruba-Brazilian merchant families can be found in this article called "The English Professors of Brazil: On The Diasporic Roots of the Yoruba Nation".

By the 1880s, we have many educated Yoruba commentators writing dozens of articles and books published in Lagos and Abeokuta on historical topics, basing their articles on current oral tradition. The articles were published in the popular weekly newspapers and many of the books were written in Yoruba as traditional histories, usually titled "iwe itan" and focused on specific towns or ethnic groups.

Thanks to these writers, we have a reasonably clear picture of the Yoruba region throughout the 19th century--from Eko to Abeokuta to Ijaiye and Ibadan, with mentions of Ilesa and Ilorin as well. As you can see, the idea that "administrators had read about Yoruba but had no thorough familiarity until the 1890s" is sheer ignorance about this well-documented history. If Arab history and mysterious AfroAsian cultures appeal to people, they should focus on them and leave Yoruba out of it. If, on the other hand, people are interested in Yoruba history, they should spend their time actually familiarizing themselves with the huge volume of verified information that's already available.

More detailed books and articles are being published by the day. There are gaps in precolonial history since, like most nations in the world, the earliest origins of Yoruba people were preserved as myths and not exact documentation of events. That situation changed with the advent of Western-style education in the 19th century, and now by the 21st century, we have the right technology, linguistic insights and so on to examine the myths and interpret their development. Let's not waste time with idle speculation when there's already a wealth of well-written and verifiable information on Yoruba available to anyone willing to read about it.

9jacrip:

Result of research is Edi festival and I doubt you know anything about it, else you wouldn't ask me to jam up this beautiful thread with this because it has nothing to do with Yoruba origin. It is another angle entirely and that would mean trolling but if a thread of Edi comes up I'll be glad to add it.

Why would I want to jump into sounds and letters when I'm not trained to do such, you've said you're not so why do you keep touting this? As Terracotta said above you and that should keep you in check - no intellect would you take your theory serious so long you're not trained in the angle you're coming from:

Too bad there are no Linguists or Etymologists on Nairaland to take you up on this.

Note: I'm not trying to pull you down nor discourage your zeal to think up such a theory but it is only right for me to react the way I did and besides the feeling seem to come from several other people too. Just provide the evidence(s) and we can quit inundating one another with lengthy posts.

MetaPhysical:

So if Edi festival has nothing to do with subject matter why did you introduce it here. What relevance is your interview here. You have ego issue.

I have proven those letters and sounds and had a friend versed and skilled in language and interpretations test for them and they are error free and valid. 10yrs work!

I dont need a degree in linguistic to share those sounds.

Like i said, brig your linguists to test them and point out the falshood or error in them. You cannot, so shut up!!

Katsumoto:

Read my post again; this time slowly.

Don't wear ignorance like an armour.

And stop that nonsense about anyone dropping dead.

We are discussing Yoruba history here; if you want to place curses, you better find your way to a fake shrine.

MetaPhysical: You dont expect it to degenrate but yet you kept stoking issues that I have repeatedl clarified.

I will bring my friend on NL after your specialists point out the errors in the sounds.

In fact, here is another one...

English - Forgive
Yoruba - Foriji

English - Sorro
Yoruba - Isoro

They are unique and non-universal usage yhat tie Yoruba's foothold to AfroAsia.

Tell your linguists to disprove it.

..still waiting on your interview report by the way.

I ignored you several times and tried to avoid a degenration but you took my silence for intimidation. You want fire? I got baskets full of hot quivers.

PAGAN 9JA:
^That is so LAME!

so Yorubas are proto-Germanic now?!

ladionline: brothers, E jo o, E take things easy o. 9jacrip, i love your open-mindedness, history does not need to be miracle before it is believed. YOU HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR COMPARATIVE EVIDENCE SINCE MONTHS BACK WHEN PHYSICED WAS PART OF THE DISCOURSANTS. I deserve to know how my ancestors were kins to whoever a rediscoverer claim they were,I don't have to go through complex mystery to know this, or history become psychic. Please meta, truth should not be too elusive. Albeit, I Know you are invincible anyway. I'm your biggest admirer, prexios.

9jacrip:


What is all this balderdash? You seem so upset and it is childish and unwelcome in an intellectual discourse. Don't get near the kitchen if you cant stand the heat!
This is what I'm stoking and my stand remains - give us evidence(s) to prove your point! We don see your language comparison now give us the Bello evidence you mentioned in your previous post, I'm waiting.
I never claimed to be a linguist nor etymologist and I do not know any I can table your stuffs to right now.
I've told you to open a thread on Edi festival, tell me what you know about it and I'll post my findings - simple!




I taya for the man.
If we begin to pick words from different places we'd find similarities and this doesn't mean anything!



Thank you!
Asking for the evidence is what the problem is and the same reason he's riled up.

I shake my damn head! Keep distorting history then if it suits you. I pity those who encourage, believe or take you serious.

MetaPhysical:

I can list 500 Yoruba words that have direct correspondence and matched meanings in Roman based languages and another 500 in Semitic/Hamitic tongues. It exposes another angle and area of interest and quest into Yoruba trdition of origin for people who might never have known or thought that those possibilities exist.

I repeat, open your own darn thread, call it Edi and bring us report of your research and interview. Whats wrong with your finger, is it crushed?

..waiting on your honorable linguists to punh holes in the letters and sounds.

Another mind blowing revelation for you and your linguists society.."avia", as in aviation comes from same root as " afefe"; "ofurufu"; " "fiofio"..as in oke fiofio. The root "f", corrupted to "v" in English.

Compare "Ile Ife" to "Nineveh"; the transition from f to v.

I need you to hurry up and start bringing out the non-truths in these words. Ode!!

LADIONLINE, if you recall on our discourse on your thread I kept repeating that I cant put everything here in NL ..i dont want to give pearls to pigs to wear, it will not be valued and will be ruined.

This 9jacrip is a pig not worth adorning with pearls.

9jacrip:


Was all of that necessary? @the bolded.

Given how uncouth, classless and unprofessional you have become, this will be my last response to you.

You said AfroAsia/Arab - I asked for evidences aside words and tongue and insults is what I get? Again, I still won't stoop low. Only frustrated folks tow that path, so I'll leave you to wallow or make yourself feel good by throwing insults. Shows how desperate you are with your theory. Now we see you've gone to English? As I said, different words can be picked from different languages to match - it necessarily doesn't mean migration.

The fact remains, as long as you're not a linguist nor etymologist, your theory remains fallacious until someone who's specialized in that field comes to 'co-sign' whatever you're struggling to sell with insults.

So back to topic! You said there are evidences to back Bello's account of Yoruba migrating from Mecca, do not disappoint, just provide these evidences so we can move on - you can throw insults all you want, it tells a lot about your kind of person.

Again, if a thread with details bordering on Edi springs up, I will gladly add so please don't goad me in anyway.

Do watch your words and be couth with your utterances, I might not be so 'shy' the next time.

Cheers.

MetaPhysical:

You dont make the call on the temperaments and interaction in here, neither do I. We all owe one another a decent and respectful comingling and when you step out of your space into my face ..and I made conscious effort to avoid you but you didnt read the sign, well welcome to the Lion's den! You have given me the liberty to disrespect you.

Watch and stay in your space next time mr!

MetaPhysical:

I can list 500 Yoruba words that have direct correspondence and matched meanings in Roman based languages and another 500 in Semitic/Hamitic tongues. It exposes another angle and area of interest and quest into Yoruba trdition of origin for people who might never have known or thought that those possibilities exist.


..waiting on your honorable linguists to punh holes in the letters and sounds.

Another mind blowing revelation for you and your linguists society.."avia", as in aviation comes from same root as " afefe"; "ofurufu"; " "fiofio"..as in oke fiofio. The root "f", corrupted to "v" in English.

Compare "Ile Ife" to "Nineveh"; the transition from f to v.

I need you to hurry up and start bringing out the non-truths in these words.

MetaPhysical: You dont expect it to degenrate but yet you kept stoking issues that I have repeatedl clarified.

I will bring my friend on NL after your specialists point out the errors in the sounds.

In fact, here is another one...

English - Forgive
Yoruba - Foriji

English - Sorrow
Yoruba - Isoro

They are unique and non-universal usage yhat tie Yoruba's foothold to AfroAsia.

Tell your linguists to disprove it.

..still waiting on your interview report by the way.

I ignored you several times and tried to avoid a degenration but you took my silence for intimidation. You want fire? I got baskets full of hot quivers.

ladionline: Metaphisical, you know I believe just like you that yorubas originated at the middle east. But, my anchorage is Yoruba tradition itself, not Sultan Bello. WYou do not seem to value 9jacrip anymore? Who is left to belief us? Evidence is all we need to proof a point, not similarity of sound, except you are okay to call your research speculative. But if you are unbreakably sure you are right, the opposite applies too. Do you want to impose your view or give no brainer tradition to confirm your claim? That's what you must do. Brother, I may not be as patient as you are, but folks like 9jacrip and others are blessings. If you can?'t convince them, how can you convince Yoruba population? Will you resolve to talk or stalk?

MetaPhysical:

The first thing to consider is whether or not Sultan is telling the truth with that claim.

Give me your thought on his truthfullness on the claim. I would like to pursue this to its logical conclusion.

MetaPhysical:

The first thing to consider is whether or not Sultan is telling the truth with that claim.

Give me your thought on his truthfullness on the claim. I would like to pursue this to its logical conclusion.

MetaPhysical:

The first thing to consider is whether or not Sultan is telling the truth with that claim.

Give me your thought on his truthfullness on the claim. I would like to pursue this to its logical conclusion.

ladionline: Thanks for this one. There is one mistake that everyone of us citing Sultan Bello kept making: the account of Yoruba origin creditted to Bello is a fusion of (1) 'what (a wonderful thing) Yoruba contains' and (2) 'how Yoruba originated at Mecca. Sultan Bello offered Clapperton (1) in his first journey, and I believe he (Clapperton) offered Sultan Bello the Hamitic theory. Maybe he read the story to the exhaulted Sultan and get him to 'approve' it by making the tradition have an African outlook. Have you ever wonder why sultan said 'we are informed'? Who was the informant? The Sultan was sending a 'secret message' that looked like 'Balak and Balam' epic in the bible. He was being 'used' in a politico story but he was careful.

macof:

The sultan is not telling the truth.

How can u even consider that Oyo came from Mecca? When everyone knows they were led by Oranmiyan from of Ile-Ife

MetaPhysical:

Is that the consensus and everyone that have problem with the Sultan's claim are in agreement with your response?

9jacrip, ladionline..are you guys concurrent with macof's response?

MetaPhysical:

Is that the consensus and everyone that have problem with the Sultan's claim are in agreement with your response?

9jacrip, ladionline..are you guys concurrent with macof's response?

MetaPhysical:

You have not answered my question. Everybody charges me for speculating but then you all avoid my questions.

Please answer the question i asked.

ladionline:
No macof can not speak for me or my father's house. He can speak for ekiti.

He is just like you: you both have infallible menthors who are outside Yoruba.
he is pursuing his agenda en route Ife. The fact that he question you on Mecca origin can only mean he knew next to nothing about basic Yoruba history as taught in 'primary school'.

He has blank oral records to flaunt and the pride/problem made him say evolution cause Yoruba forget their history. What have you done with the one you have? What?

ladionline: Since Yoruba evolve, what is the need for patronising ife tradition which claim heavenly origin? Its like 'evolu-tradition' I dont know a culture that uses foreign theory for her tradition of origin. That's some sorts of 'osaka-osoko'.