I guess igboland is right next to yorubaland, with the way some folks are going on and on here.

I guess basic geography is not that basic?

Why is the thread suddenly about igbo, some will also want to make it about benin, is this a complex or what.

tpia@:
I guess igboland is right next to yorubaland, with the way some folks are going on and on here.

I guess basic geography is not that basic?

Why is the thread suddenly about igbo, some will also want to make it about benin, is this a complex or what.

That's wat am trying to say here

This is about Yoruba history not Igbo, I don't see why Igbo is being dragged to this

macof:

That's wat am trying to say here

This is about Yoruba history not Igbo, I don't see why Igbo is being dragged to this

Who dragged Igbo into this? How was Igbo dragged into this?

By mentioning that Yoruba, Igbo, Edo, Ijo belong to the same language family is what you are referring to as Igbo being dragged into this!!!!

I understand that in your version of Yoruba history, apes migrated to Yorubaland, evolved into Yoruba men, and started speaking Yoruba language. But permit others who do not believe in such tales to explore other options.

No matter how difficult certain events are, distaste/irritation cannot change history.

740megawatts:

Have you seen any threads on Nairaland where Yoruba-Igbo conjugal historical discussions end well? Including our Eastern brothers in our discussions here is an invitation to derail the objective of this beautiful thread. I hope you understand why it is better to ignore that area for now?

Yes I do, i have first hand experience under my "prexios" handle. It takes the wise metaphisical to save the day at the time. Albeit, I subscribe to the Ifa precept that says "oun taa fi sagba, kama fi sebinu." Don't expect much from your neighbours to love them. I accept your instruction.

Tony Spike: On a thread like this, several inputs emerge and I do appreciate true historians like Terracotta and Katsumoto who are sharing their knowledge in these area of Yoruba history based on their own painstaking research. I am here to learn and I am very open to knowledge because I am a student in my own field of pursuit also. However, I have discovered that there are so many angles to Yoruba history each with its own politics, culture, religious inclinations and social perception. For example, I am surprised that the Oduduwa legend was ascribed a female personality by some Yoruba groups as explained by Terracotta. As far as my primary and High School days, I was taught about the mythical Oduduwa who descended from Heaven via chain with a cock and palm seedlings (I think). I have considered my personal research into Yoruba history as my own way of understanding the past of my people. It has paid off so far and I'm glad about that. In my family line, my great grandfather was the chief custodian of the King's burial rite (somewhere among the Eastern Yoruba clans) and he was a specifically titled for that purpose. I am saying this to disprove someone who suggested I am an 'Akata'.

As a researcher, one of the things I've learnt is that knowledge itself undergoes several stages of hypothesis and theory to become what it is. The most important aspect to this is establishing the truths through the validation of such knowledge or even history. Validation of ancient history is very rigorous and sometimes, very impossible which is why archaeology is very important. Being impervious to hypothesis without any established basis is a very unwholesome attitude and any researcher should know that. I will hereby watch this thread as a spectator rather than contribute. Thanks to all.

likewise, i've always been taught about immaculate birthday and ascending to heaven ,walking on water ,going to heaven with chariot of fire , '."God having a beloved son" Son of God with pictures everywhere depicting him as a blue eyes blonde hair man that ones ascend to heaven to his father and will soon descend from heaven to kill the wicked and rule over the world with his band of white skinned Angels with wings battling odd among them black skin Satan.. Have you ever question the authenticity of this myth or doctoring simple minded Negroids?. if you can be so rational about your native religion believe why not do the same to your master religion

^^^^^^^^^ God bless you!

Obalufon:
likewise, i've always been taught about immaculate birthday and ascending to heaven ,walking on water ,going to heaven with chariot of fire , '."God having a beloved son" Son of God with pictures everywhere depicting him as a blue eyes blonde hair man that ones ascend to heaven to his father and will soon descend from heaven to kill the wicked and rule over the world with his band of white skinned Angels with wings battling odd among them black skin Satan.. Have you ever question the authenticity of this myth or doctoring simple minded Negroids?. if you can be so rational about your native religion believe why not do the same to your master religion

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

Katsumoto:

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

I very much agree with your points here - history is about the activities of men(women). I actually co-signed him because I wish believers of 'imported' religions would question the 'history' embedded in their religion the way you and others have brain-stormed to piece Yoruba history together.

I'm enjoying every bit, more grease to your elbow

9jacrip:

I very much agree with your points here - history is about the activities of men(women). I actually co-signed him because I wish believers of 'imported' religions would question the 'history' embedded in their religion the way you and others have brain-stormed to piece Yoruba history together.

I'm enjoying every bit, more grease to your elbow

Thanks

I was surprised you decided to stay on the sidelines.

Katsumoto:

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

Oooooooooo! is good to believe white lie but black lie never!! .When you condemn the believe of other people's religion. stop being rational about the history and believe of Yoruba people. Mentioning the name of highly revered deity or figure like as oduduwa,shango desecrate ,violate the sacredness of our native religion and history.just believe or drop dead Mr man.

Yoruba Religion is Ifa Orisha. Period.

ANy Yoruba man, woman or child disclaiming this religion should be kicked out.

PAGAN 9JA:
Yoruba Religion is Ifa Orisha. Period.

ANy Yoruba man, woman or child disclaiming this religion should be kicked out.

Kicked out to where?

And who are you to tell others what they should accept or not?

If the God who made us all didn't force religion/spirituality on anyone, who are you to decide what is right for others?

Obalufon:
Oooooooooo! is good to believe white lie but black lie never!! .When you condemn the believe of other people's religion. stop being rational about the history and believe of Yoruba people. Mentioning the name of highly revered deity or figure like as oduduwa,shango desecrate ,violate the sacredness of our native religion and history.just believe or drop dead Mr man.

Read my post again; this time slowly.

Don't wear ignorance like an armour.

And stop that nonsense about anyone dropping dead.

We are discussing Yoruba history here; if you want to place curses, you better find your way to a fake shrine.

Katsumoto:

Kicked out to where?

And who are you to tell others what they should accept or not?

If the God who made us all didn't force religion/spirituality on anyone, who are you to decide what is right for others?

IF you belong to Yoruba, you must follow Yoruba.

This is not me saying, this is the Yoruba saying.

stop calling yourself Yoruba if you cant be Yoruba.

PAGAN 9JA:



IF you belong to Yoruba, you must follow Yoruba.

This is not me saying, this is the Yoruba saying.

stop calling yourself Yoruba if you cant be Yoruba.

where is it said that you must follow Yoruba if you are Yoruba?

And when did I state what group I belong to?

I repeat 'you don't have any right to tell people what they choose to be. Even fathers don't have that power and God who does, allows us to have a choice. Otherwise there would be one religion.

Katsumoto:

where is it said that you must follow Yoruba if you are Yoruba?

And when did I state what group I belong to?

I repeat 'you don't have any right to tell people what they choose to be. Even fathers don't have that power and God who does, allows us to have a choice. Otherwise there would be one religion.

IT is not said anywhere. This is not like the bible or quran.

It is understood.

I am talking about Yorubas. so if you are not Yoruba, you dont need to reply.

Again, its not me who is saying it. It is the general idea. You have no right to use the name of Odudua and disresepect Odududuas beliefs.

There is supposed to be 1 form of religion.

becuase there isnt, is the reason why our world is in bad shape today.

PAGAN 9JA:


IT is not said anywhere. This is not like the bible or quran.

It is understood.

I am talking about Yorubas. so if you are not Yoruba, you dont need to reply.

Again, its not me who is saying it. It is the general idea. You have no right to use the name of Odudua and disresepect Odududuas beliefs.

There is supposed to be 1 form of religion.

becuase there isnt, is the reason why our world is in bad shape today.

Please explain how I have disrespected Oduduwa's belief?

And then explain who has the right to use Oduduwa's name in a discussion about Yoruba history.

Katsumoto:

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

When discussing Yoruba history, Yoruba spirituality is an important aspect.

You know why u can never know Yoruba history properly without assumptions and errors is because u are not a complete Yoruba.

Yoruba history, spirituality, philosophy and Traditions are embedded in Ifa.

So to understand Yoruba history properly is to understand Ifa

Great Day.

macof:


When discussing Yoruba history, Yoruba spirituality is an important aspect.

You know why u can never know Yoruba history properly without assumptions and errors is because u are not a complete Yoruba.

Yoruba history, spirituality, philosophy and Traditions are embedded in Ifa.

So to understand Yoruba history properly is to understand Ifa

[s]...and a good Yoruba historian must be Ifa or Charles Darwin compliant.[/s]

Right on point, macof. Tell them.

Katsumoto:

Please explain how I have disrespected Oduduwa's belief?

And then explain who has the right to use Oduduwa's name in a discussion about Yoruba history.

did I tel you in particular disrespected Oduduwa's belief.

I am clearly referring to "so-called" christians and muslims Yoruba.

The one who follows Yoruba religon and culture and everything Yoruba has the right to take Oduduwa's name in a discussion.

^ you claim hausa, what now concerns you with yoruba?

Are you trying to switch tribes?

tpia@:
^ you claim hausa, what now concerns you with yoruba?

Are you trying to switch tribes?

mind your own business. do i have to keep repeating this to you?

^ mind yours, yoruba matters are not your business.

Especially with your arrogant itk attitude.

Nbo lo ti ja wa gan?

Katsumoto:

Please explain how I have disrespected Oduduwa's belief?

And then explain who has the right to use Oduduwa's name in a discussion about Yoruba history.

You don't have to explain yourself. We are all here having a discussion about Yoruba history in English, with people who claim to be of many different ethnic backgrounds, so I don't think we can judge whether anyone has the right to participate in the discussion. Katsumoto is better informed than 99% of the people contributing here so his ethnic background or religious beliefs shouldn't be a factor if he hasn't made it one. It's like telling Wole Soyinka that he can't discuss Shakespeare or Greek theatre because he's not from the right group.

It's quite clear that several of you ignorant characters are only "Yoruba" on the Internet anyway. We're just here trying to educate some of you ethnic fraudsters since you appear to be obsessed with Yoruba history and culture.

Katsumoto:

Thanks

I was surprised you decided to stay on the sidelines.

I've engaged Mr. Metaphysics a number of times, him and I stay running on a parallel and there seems to be no convergence in sight. It got tiring, so I decided to stay aloof to see how he'd sell his theory to you and what your reaction would be.

His theory, though seems sweet doesn't appear tenable to me. As long as he's not a linguist/linguist historian nor etymologist, Yoruba and Arab/M.East do not share similarities politically, culturally/socially; lastly if, how Arabs were known to have been record keepers, we cannot find any document(s), no matter how small to corroborate Metaphysics' theory of migration then I'd only take his thesis and how he renders words and accents to sound similar mere fantasies. I suspect he's a Muslim anyway and I'm beginning to question is motive.

Furthermore, Yoruba history pre-oduduwa is 'lost' and archeological findings haven't helped much. History during Oduduwa's era is also shrouded in myths of different versions and those we deem to be 'authorities' had to take these myths, sieve through and gave it plausible interpretations and this is what we will all keep doing over and over. Honestly, the only untapped field where Yoruba history appears to be is Ifa corpus/Yoruba religion. I might be wrong though but having gone round and round debating the handed down oral history, the Ifa people always seem to have some details held back and not in circulation.

For example, when I did a research on Moremi/Edi Festival (I interviewed Ife traditionalists like Obalufe, Yekere Chief etc) I was told her son's name was Ela or Oluorogbo but on becoming privy to some family stuffs, I was told Ela/Oluorogbo was never Moremi's son, but rather a different deity entirely who happened to have introduced writing in Ile-Ife etc and I given the details I got because I wasn't an 'initiate'

9jacrip:

I've engaged Mr. Metaphysics a number of times, him and I stay running on a parallel and there seems to be no convergence in sight. It got tiring, so I decided to stay aloof to see how he'd sell his theory to you and what your reaction would be.

His theory, though seems sweet doesn't appear tenable to me. As long as he's not a linguist/linguist historian nor etymologist, Yoruba and Arab/M.East do not share similarities politically, culturally/socially; lastly if, how Arabs were known to have been record keepers, we cannot find any document(s), no matter how small to corroborate Metaphysics' theory of migration then I'd only take his thesis and how he renders words and accents to sound similar mere fantasies. I suspect he's a Muslim anyway and I'm beginning to question is motive.

Furthermore, Yoruba history pre-oduduwa is 'lost' and archeological findings haven't helped much. History during Oduduwa's era is also shrouded in myths of different versions and those we deem to be 'authorities' had to take these myths, sieve through and gave it plausible interpretations and this is what we will all keep doing over and over. Honestly, the only untapped field where Yoruba history appears to be is Ifa corpus/Yoruba religion. I might be wrong though but having gone round and round debating the handed down oral history, the Ifa people always seem to have some details held back and not in circulation.

For example, when I did a research on Moremi/Edi Festival (I interviewed Ife traditionalists like Obalufe, Yekere Chief etc) I was told her son's name was Ela or Oluorogbo but on becoming privy to some family stuffs, I was told Ela/Oluorogbo was never Moremi's son, but rather a different deity entirely who happened to have introduced writing in Ile-Ife etc and I given the details I got because I wasn't an 'initiate'

This makes a lot of sense.

So you have all had this debate with Metaphysics in the past and no one warned me. You all wanted me to go through what you went through. Its my fault for not visiting the culture section often enough.

Katsumoto:

Do not confuse religion with history. History requires evidence; faith doesn't. One can be a Muslim/Xtian and still be a traditionalist. It is a personal choice. In debates about Yoruba history, or any kind of history, it is best to put religion aside. Even if you are a pagan. Religion corrupts your analyses. It is for this reason that I do not think of my religion when discussing history. A discussion about the history of Yoruba spirituality is another subject entirely.

That's the way Western society is structured, that does not mean it is the best social evolution.

Yoruba history and spirituality go hand in hand. Yoruba does not have a religion, we have spirituality! Our history and its spirituality are interwoven.

In some society democracy is separated from religion and the government is secular, yet in others the government has a religion.

Nonetheless, even the myths of Shakespeare, the fantasies of Homer and the fables of Charles Dickens are all interwoven and integrated into Western society and their history. There are Shakespear clubs and theaters with noble men and ladies who serve as the stewards of these tales by moonlight.

You cannot go through secondary school and graduate university without studying and passing exams on these European fantasies. How many people in here has ever criticized or question these so called "classics"?

In fact some of the historians in here ought to tell us what is truthful and realistic in Illiad or Othello or Huckleberry Finn.

Obalufon:
Oooooooooo! is good to believe white lie but black lie never!! .When you condemn the believe of other people's religion. stop being rational about the history and believe of Yoruba people. Mentioning the name of highly revered deity or figure like as oduduwa,shango desecrate ,violate the sacredness of our native religion and history.just believe or drop dead Mr man.

Obalufon,

C'mon! Lets be matured and respectful, please.
We are all passionate about our land and its past heroes and founders, we show the love the best way we know, you are no more loving Oduduwa and Yoruba than Katsumoto, let's be mindful of the flaming tongue and restrain the ego. Please brother.

MetaPhysical:

Obalufon,

C'mon! Lets be matured and respectful, please.
We are all passionate about our land and its past heroes and founders, we show the love the best way we know, you are no more loving Oduduwa and Yoruba than Katsumoto, let's be mindful of the flaming tongue and restrain the ego. Please brother.

People should stop deceiving themselves that they love Yoruba when they hate and slander our ancestors

9jacrip:

I've engaged Mr. Metaphysics a number of times, him and I stay running on a parallel and there seems to be no convergence in sight. It got tiring, so I decided to stay aloof to see how he'd sell his theory to you and what your reaction would be.

His theory, though seems sweet doesn't appear tenable to me. As long as he's not a linguist/linguist historian nor etymologist, Yoruba and Arab/M.East do not share similarities politically, culturally/socially; lastly if, how Arabs were known to have been record keepers, we cannot find any document(s), no matter how small to corroborate Metaphysics' theory of migration then I'd only take his thesis and how he renders words and accents to sound similar mere fantasies. I suspect he's a Muslim anyway and I'm beginning to question is motive.

I dont know why you should keep going in circle over the same stuff I already settled with you perharps several pages ago. In case you missed it, here it is again:

1. I am not a linguist or etymologist, neither am I an historian.

2. I am a Yoruba and there is nothing in my culture and custom that says only historians or linguists or etymologists can act as authority on the traditions of Yoruba origin.

3. What I have submitted are my theories, they are not prescribed, take it as it applies to your interest or input.

4. What I have submitted on "letters"; "sounds"; and "words" are available for you or anyone to test for their validity. They are truthful and revealing.

5. Africa was explored by three interest groups and from three different directions. Yoruba is in the lower Niger section of the Sudan.

The two groups were in order

Arabs
Portuguese
Allied Europe

The Arabs were pioneers and followed the Nile and Andalusia into Negro Africa. They did not come across the desert as is often incorrectly told. In those days people traveled long distances using rivers and large bodies of water for navigation. So from East they used Nile but in West they used Niger. The Arabs did not cross below the Niger into Yoruba country but they visited the capital in Katunga and were familiar with Yoruba traders they met in Timbuktu, Wagadugu, Kano, Kuka Wadaye, Darfur and Kodorfa.

The Portuguese came after them and over water into the coastlands of West Africa. They traded with the coastal Yorubas and riverines people, did not go into Yoruba country.

Early European explorers used the maps and chronicles of Arab explorers to come into Africa. Naturally they followed the Arab tracks, using the Nile and Mauritania. They did not challenge the Sahara.

This is why Clapperton and Landers had heard about Yorubas before they even entered into Yoruba capital. They were early explorers and did not enter into Yoruba country but stayed in Katunga, Old Oyo on the first trip. On their second trip, they went further inland and even to Badagry.

The Colonists came much later, mid to late 1800s. England colonized Nigeria. Much of what they knew on landing was the chronicles of Arab travellers and Early recordings of European explorers. They knew far more about the North than they did with any other part of Nigeria...even though they arrived on the ocean coast, thousands of mile away from Hausaland. They were far more familiar with what to expect in North before they started to administer the North or to amalgamate them.

Colonial administrators had read about Yoruba but had no thorough familiarity until in the 1890s and turn of 1900.

There were two things that shielded Yoruba from outside inquisitions.

A. Imperial power - Yorubaland was not available for foreign invasion or acquisition and so early explorers and visitores would pay courtesy visit to the capital but stay out of the country.

B. Internecine wars - even the Colonialists did not care to penetrate inland into Yorubaland after a taste of devastating losses in war with Yorubas in Lagos in 1855 and with Ijebus shortly afterward..not minding they ended up defeating the Yorubas.

I have told you that the records exist of Yoruba migration and Bello clearly inferred that he is not the originator of the Yoruba/Kanaan story. Bello only had intermingling with Yorubas, Nupes, Kanuris, Gogobirs, Arabs, Berbers. So if it was told by anyone of the non- Yorubas with proven footholds in Arabia, then it can only be true as a authentic record. If he heard it from a Yoruba then the original source was internal and needs to be investigated for proof within, not from outside.

Furthermore, Yoruba history pre-oduduwa is 'lost' and archeological findings haven't helped much. History during Oduduwa's era is also shrouded in myths of different versions and those we deem to be 'authorities' had to take these myths, sieve through and gave it plausible interpretations and this is what we will all keep doing over and over. Honestly, the only untapped field where Yoruba history appears to be is Ifa corpus/Yoruba religion. I might be wrong though but having gone round and round debating the handed down oral history, the Ifa people always seem to have some details held back and not in circulation.

For example, when I did a research on Moremi/Edi Festival (I interviewed Ife traditionalists like Obalufe, Yekere Chief etc) I was told her son's name was Ela or Oluorogbo but on becoming privy to some family stuffs, I was told Ela/Oluorogbo was never Moremi's son, but rather a different deity entirely who happened to have introduced writing in Ile-Ife etc and I given the details I got because I wasn't an 'initiate'

I want to learn. You have said many times that you intervoewed these people. Where is the record of your research and results? Bring it here so I can learn what I dont yet know.

Instead of criticing what Im producing, which as you can see is very helpful, why not share with us what you have produced. Bring your own theory.

As I said already these Western society that some of us worship are sitting, solidly, on myths and theories produced and institutionalized from people like Homer, Plato, Derwin, Shakespeare and so on.