Also, just to end the argument about time traveling and jetpacks


http://www.moviefone.com/2016/06/28/game-of-thrones-varys-arya-travel/

gj22:


What does this have to do with Jon snow? How does it show that Jon snow is a bad leader?



He wasn't questioning Jon's leadership. He didn't want his men to die anymore than they already have. You and i can agree that in war, men die from both sides. No matter if you win or lose. He doesn't know about Jon's leadership qualities because he has never seen him lead.



Out of all your points, this is the most moot. You know that not everyone was in support of the Wildlings coming across the wall. Or are you saying Jon snow's decision to bring the Wildlings over was a bad one? Are the nights watch not the same people who killed Jon snow's predecessor? Or did they kill him too because he was a bad leader?



Sorry to say but the only rubbish is coming from your side of the conversation. When you Google something and see a POV then you decide to follow it religiously. Merely the fact that he was elected 2ice as head should already tell you that he is not a bad leader.

Really great points you raised here bro. I think Nihilist is just not a Jon Snow fan....hence his position on the mata

gj22:


What does this have to do with Jon snow? How does it show that Jon snow is a bad leader?



He wasn't questioning Jon's leadership. He didn't want his men to die anymore than they already have. You and i can agree that in war, men die from both sides. No matter if you win or lose. He doesn't know about Jon's leadership qualities because he has never seen him lead.



Out of all your points, this is the most moot. You know that not everyone was in support of the Wildlings coming across the wall. Or are you saying Jon snow's decision to bring the Wildlings over was a bad one? Are the nights watch not the same people who killed Jon snow's predecessor? Or did they kill him too because he was a bad leader?



Sorry to say but the only rubbish is coming from your side of the conversation. When you Google something and see a POV then you decide to follow it religiously. Merely the fact that he was elected 2ice as head should already tell you that he is not a bad leader.

My friend shut the fvck up.

I posted my own views and did not try to convince anybody else
For the past 72 hours I keep getting quoted by roaches by yourself, who have neither the individuality to make an original assertion, nor the intelligence to comprehend a holistic argument when you see 1.

My post regarding the red wedding was answering a tangential question that the other guy asked. Are you really so dumb, that you can't realise that this section of my post wasn't talking about Jon?

I actually can't even be arsed to go over the rest of your post for fear that the stupidity contained therein might be contagious.

Nihilist does not beg you for money to buy data. If you see a post you don't agree with, just jump and pass. I get that people interpret things in different ways. I don't really care how you interpret the events on the show, but please if you chose to quote me to attack my own interpretation, don't talk like a spastic.

It's tedious having to read 20+ mentions in less than 24 hours all spouting different shades of the same shyt.

Nihilist:


My friend shut the fvck up.

I posted my own views and did not try to convince anybody else
For the past 72 hours I keep getting quoted by roaches by yourself, who have neither the individuality to make an original assertion, nor the intelligence to comprehend a holistic argument when you see 1.

My post regarding the red wedding was answering a tangential question that the other guy asked. Are you really so dumb, that you can't realise that this section of my post wasn't talking about Jon?

I actually can't even be arsed to go over the rest of your post for fear that the stupidity contained therein might be contagious.

Nihilist does not beg you for money to buy data. If you see a post you don't agree with, just jump and pass. I get that people interpret things in different ways. I don't really care how you interpret the events on the show, but please if you chose to quote me to attack my own interpretation, don't talk like a spastic.

It's tedious having to read 20+ mentions in less than 24 hours all spouting different shades of the same shyt.

Sir, I know my opinions mean nothing to you, but you really need to take a "chill pill". You've been gyrating around the same POV for the past 96 hours and I can't help but sense some traces of arrogance coupled with an overdose of self-esteem. You just stuck to the same opinion and the counter-arguments others provided were being torn to shreds with your not-too-founded semi-explanations.
Usually, I don't interfere with matters that don't directly affect me, but this argument is getting tiring and methinks you're destroying the purpose of this thread.
No offence intended.

Nihilist:


I may have to be more discriminating when deciding to who to respond to in future

I will try and answer your post, not because I believe it is of any particular value or worth replying, but just to show how events as they happened are considered irrelevant, when the defence of a beloved character is of utmost concern. Seems like even the facts are not allowed to get in the way of your narrative

For instance.


This is a bold faced lie.

Lord Glover on why he refused to answer Jon -

"Yes, my family served House Stark for centuries. We wept when we heard of your father's death. When my brother was Lord of this castle he answered Robb's call and hailed him King in the North! And where was "King" Robb when the Ironborn attacked this castle? When they threw my wife and children in prison and brutalized and killed our subjects? Taking up with a foreign wh0re... getting himself and those who followed him killed."

You can see that Glover is clearly questioning Stark Leadership here....No mention of the word 'Bastard'

Lord Manderly on why he refused to answer Jon -

""Lady Mormont speaks harshly... and truly. My son died for Robb Stark, the Young Wolf. I didn't think we'd find another king in my lifetime. I didn't commit my men to your cause because I didn't want more Manderlys dying for nothing."

Again the questions of leadership is raised, framed against a concern that Jon would have the Manderlys die for nothing'

Both Lords are very particular in pointing out that the safety of their men was of utmost priority, and neither one of them felt that Jon could guarantee their continued safety.



Another bold faced lie. Davos never sold Jon to Lyanna as a great leader. Instead he appealed to her instinct for self-preservation.

His speech below

"Jeor Mormont and Jon Snow both understood that the real war isn't between a few squabbling houses. It's between the living and the dead. And make no mistake my lady, the dead are coming."
As long as the Boltons hold Winterfell, the North is divided. And a divided North won't stand a chance against the Night King. You want to protect your people my lady, I understand. But there's no hiding from this. We have to fight. And we need to do it together"


I agree...which is why I did not focus on that in isolation. Like I said, he saved some of them from the whitewalkers and then offered them sanctuary at Castle Black doing away with a tradition that has held several centuries, and at the expense of his own life...yet these guys are still reluctant to fight for him at Winterfell. He has made enormous sacrifices to keep the wildlings alive, and yet was still unable to muster their loyalty without help- HOW COME?


This is exactly the point. The Lord Commander of the night's watch perfomed an noble act that was morally right. Yet his subordinates disagreed so strongly with his decision that they actually chose to MURDER HIM. If that is not the biggest exhibit of a lack of faith in his leadership, then I don't know what is.

I'm done with this debate. I cannot continue to repeat myself and deal with the same non-coherent arguments time and again.

No vex bo

I read every of ur arguments and d responses too but I dont really get ur points.


It is one thing to question Jon Snow as a person, it is another thing to question his qualities as a good leader.

C'mon bro......the one thing a good leader must possess is not losing sight of d big picture. In dis plot, the big picture is d white walkers. All Jon does is to only tried to play d big game. All the political brouhaha going on in kings landing will come to nothing if d white walkers come.


The best thing I saw in him in d season finale is the fact that even after everything, he forgive d houses that didnt fight with him against d bolton. A lesser man would av gone after them or even start to raise an army against d lannisters for what they did to his family.

He didnt care about all that, all he care about is saving his people. Ofcourse, some of them may not see d bigger picture yet so they may not really believe in him but that doesnt make him a bad leader.

e.g. If today, Nigerian president tells us to start contributing our hard earned money in order to ease d effect of global warming. Most of us will be like...'what is dis one saying'. But the truth is effect of global warming is coming whether we like it or not.

@Nihilist reminds me of Jackal/Sauron with his arguments. It's obvious no one shares your opinion.
Jon made a great emotional mistake despite the fact that Sansa forewarned him and it's understandable. He's been a Stark most of his life and they always make that error.
Now everyone who doubted him or questioned his ability and leadership qualities is asking for forgiveness. He's marked for greatness and a better leader than anyone in the Seven kingdoms.
Give it up already and bow to the king in the north.

gj22:


It didn't start this season.

In season 1, think about when the imp traveled from winter fell to the wall and back to kings landing and how catelyn traveled from winter fell to kings landing and to the vale. This time line discrepancies have been established since season one. You just didn't notice it then.

huh

Season 1 cut close to d book dt timeline is accurate

yu guys r 4getting
1. lady olenna went home to high garden, the time it took her to get to dorne was enof time 4 varys to arrive dorne

kaydee:
@Nihilist reminds me of Jackal/Sauron with his arguments. It's obvious no one shares your opinion.
Jon made a great emotional mistake despite the fact that Sansa forewarned him and it's understandable. He's been a Stark most of his life and they always make that error.
Now everyone who doubted him or questioned his ability and leadership qualities is asking for forgiveness. He's marked for greatness and a better leader than anyone in the Seven kingdoms.
Give it up already and bow to the king in the north.

Jom Snow. The King in the North. Am just scared for Jon Snow tho, all this King in the North with no crown and proper coronation. Na so dem call Robb King in the Norf. But na Robb Bleep up sha. But that Volantis lady too dey tempting. She be like Lara wey come attend to peoples wound for Naija. Oshiomole jam am, nack am, marry am. Oshiomole the Fing in the Sauth.

snezBaba:

Quirks?abeg whats your definition of quirk as related to your usage.
If you watch Big Bang Theory,then chop Knuckle,Originals=Sabi Boi,Grey anatomy=WHY .Empire=I dash you hugs. No homo

That's why I used the word quirks. Just my personalnliks irrespective of the general opinion. I actually don't know anyone personally who watches big bang theory or originals. I only see them online.

You see your reaction to Grey's anatomy. Lol.

That's why it a quirk. I would never say it in public

Peeps just enjoy the show. Thats what its there for. No need to trade insults over entertainment.

Nuff said

Geniro:


This guy has allowed his sentimental hate for Jon Snow cloud his reasoning. damn son.

its not news
Jon snow accounding 2 d Got world is a bad leader, Too emotional, he actually deserved his first death at least according to d buks

We love him cos he's loyal, kind n family oriented doesn't mean he's a gr8 leader

I think yu r letting your Lv 4 him cloud your judgment

Nihilist:


I'm beginning to think that it is impossible to have either a civil and/or a measured discussion about this show.
I'm not sure that if I should be continuing this discussion, if after reading multiple posts of mine discussing just one particular facet of Jon Snow's character traits, your conclusion is that I hate Jon Snow...and for NO reason.

I remember I raised this point a few pages back:



I was reading an interview with Sophie Turner, and this is what she had to say:


http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-jon-sansa-littlefinger-marry-theory-sophie-turner-1201805047/


Another interview with Sansa here:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820



Now listen to Kit Harrington himself on Jon Snow:



I don't hate Jon Snow, but I think he's a disastrous leader. Pre-BoB, he had only really been trusted as a leader by an immature child and an ignorant wildling. That's why I could not understand why the Nothern Lords were so eager to trust him. Shikena.

yu dey try sha
if there's one tin I do here I don giv evry1 my time, I dont respond to evry mention,
no need to prove yorsef or make strong yor P.o.v people will have their opinion.
its theirs n u can't change dt.

I bliv yu read d books

Nihilist:


I'm beginning to think that it is impossible to have either a civil and/or a measured discussion about this show.
I'm not sure that if I should be continuing this discussion, if after reading multiple posts of mine discussing just one particular facet of Jon Snow's character traits, your conclusion is that I hate Jon Snow...and for NO reason.

I remember I raised this point a few pages back:



I was reading an interview with Sophie Turner, and this is what she had to say:


http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-spoilers-jon-sansa-littlefinger-marry-theory-sophie-turner-1201805047/


Another interview with Sansa here:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-finale-sophie-turner-906820



Now listen to Kit Harrington himself on Jon Snow:



I don't hate Jon Snow, but I think he's a disastrous leader. Pre-BoB, he had only really been trusted as a leader by an immature child and an ignorant wildling. That's why I could not understand why the Nothern Lords were so eager to trust him. Shikena.

its d show mind yu dis crap won't happen in d book at least from all I've read so far

Emmyk:
How you guys remember all their names is still mindblowing. I have been following the show since May 2014 and I still don't know some characters by name.

its no real biggy people go online read more. folo spoilers gist bout it, read d books some more times than others

armadeo:


As in. I downloaded one season after I watched it half way I downloaded the entire series.

It's lovely in simplicity of the hustle. The breaking bad of Walter white.

Lovely series.

which city yu in?

gj22:


What does this have to do with Jon snow? How does it show that Jon snow is a bad leader?



He wasn't questioning Jon's leadership. He didn't want his men to die anymore than they already have. You and i can agree that in war, men die from both sides. No matter if you win or lose. He doesn't know about Jon's leadership qualities because he has never seen him lead.



Out of all your points, this is the most moot. You know that not everyone was in support of the Wildlings coming across the wall. Or are you saying Jon snow's decision to bring the Wildlings over was a bad one? Are the nights watch not the same people who killed Jon snow's predecessor? Or did they kill him too because he was a bad leader?



Sorry to say but the only rubbish is coming from your side of the conversation. When you Google something and see a POV then you decide to follow it religiously. Merely the fact that he was elected 2ice as head should already tell you that he is not a bad leader.

I'm guessing yu bliv Jon's a gr8 leader,
Jon to me wud better serve as a follower till he has an inclination of wat ruling is about, as a book reader yu wud ve followed his progress, he had gr8 leaders ahead n had friends guiding him, yu kno y he was killed buk tinz
Jon as a person thumbs up as a leader no no.

I'm not saying all his decisions wer bad tho
he has d potential of been a Gr8 leader

SIRcumalot:

Jon becoming the leader of the north was always the end game it is the manner in which it was handled that am not so comfortable with,some of these guys pledging allegiance probably fought against Jon.
the excuses for the coming war is pale since only the wildlings and Jon have actually seen the whitewalkers the other northern lords haven't.
as for the red wedding avenging,the Frey's are still around to the best of the northern lords knowledge,except news of Arya's actions don reach the north.
the Lannisters are also still around.
plus the knight of the vale stole his thunder against the Bolton's

I don't want to sound like am nitpicking I like Jon snow as the king in the north I just wanted it to be airtight. the illegitimacy is still another issue.

i think its actually d best time for north to have a king with the way things r shaping .d war. They had 2 name him cus its long over due for d north to come together. N they all know the Bolton master mind the whole thing d frey have little or no army dey can easily b delt with

moski5:


which city yu in?

Currently in lag.

Snow ll probably die in S7

sleemoon:
Snow ll probably die in S7

why Snow? Is he the only king alive now? Is Euron Greyjoy not a king? Cersei Lannister? Danerys Stormborn?

armadeo:



That's why I used the word quirks. Just my personalnliks irrespective of the general opinion. I actually don't know anyone personally who watches big bang theory or originals. I only see them online.

You see your reaction to Grey's anatomy. Lol.

That's why it a quirk. I would never say it in public

Like seriously,people need to watch Big bang theory,baddest stuff.Probably the science and English stuff discourage pple.I downloaded season 1 to 8 after watching only 3 episodes

moski5:


its not news
Jon snow accounding 2 d Got world is a bad leader, Too emotional, he actually deserved his first death at least according to d buks

We love him cos he's loyal, kind n family oriented doesn't mean he's a gr8 leader

I think yu r letting your Lv 4 him cloud your judgment

He wasnt a bad leader and didn't deserve the death. He tried to do the right thing like his Foster father and it got him killed. That's like saying Ned is a bad person.

moski5:


I'm guessing yu bliv Jon's a gr8 leader,
Jon to me wud better serve as a follower till he has an inclination of wat ruling is about, as a book reader yu wud ve followed his progress, he had gr8 leaders ahead n had friends guiding him, yu kno y he was killed buk tinz
Jon as a person thumbs up as a leader no no.

I'm not saying all his decisions wer bad tho
he has d potential of been a Gr8 leader

I haven't read the books but looking at the hands he has been dealt on the show, he is a good leader. He knows the right thing and tries to do it damn the consequences.

Ramsay or any other ruler would have murdered the other lords for refusing h but he didn't do that because of the bigger picture.

He brought the Wildlings to the other side of the wall because of the bigger picture.

He was elected lord commander with maester Aemon (a very wise man) voting for him

Unlike Robb, He betrayed the girl he loved because of the bigger picture

He led the battle at the wall after Thorne fell

He is a good man and a better leader. That is how he is portrayed in the show. He is a stark and starks are honorable people

I don't really love Jon, he is just another character to me. I love Arya, the red woman and cercei. When i say love, i mean it's their story i am more interested in.

snezBaba:

Like seriously,people need to watch Big bang theory,baddest stuff.Probably the science and English stuff discourage pple.I downloaded season 1 to 8 after watching only 3 episodes

It's more romance now and less sciency. I used to follow religiously but i now watch occasionally

moski5:


I'm guessing yu bliv Jon's a gr8 leader,
Jon to me wud better serve as a follower till he has an inclination of wat ruling is about, as a book reader yu wud ve followed his progress, he had gr8 leaders ahead n had friends guiding him, yu kno y he was killed buk tinz
Jon as a person thumbs up as a leader no no.

I'm not saying all his decisions wer bad tho
he has d potential of been a Gr8 leader

if u still think jon will serve as a follower, then u havent been paying enough attention. I guess that is your honest opinion, but i want you to follow the thought process of the writers, all they have done to jon' s character is to lift him up. from a broody bastard to Lord commander to targeryen surnname c' mon bro at least meet them halfway.

gj22:


He wasnt a bad leader and didn't deserve the death. He tried to do the right thing like his Foster father and it got him killed. That's like saying Ned is a bad person.

Thank you..

Where are the so called good and tactical leaders in GOT...dead!! Jon still has people who are ready to die for him, not because they're scared/afraid of him as with the case of other "good leaders" but because they love and trust him..most haven't known him for long (eg Ser Davos, Lyanna) but can still trust him. We all watched how Davos protected Jon's corpse with a few men, we saw how the wildlings took over Castle black for his sake, these people aren't sworn to protect Jon, no oaths binding them to him but they'll appear when he needs them. What's a leader without people who are truly loyal to him? He has enemies, yes! Has a strong conscience, yes! He might not really see himself as a good leader now because he's never struggled to get his positions, but calling him bad is too much of a stretch.

Those interviews are just to get fans itchy to see how Sansa turns on Jon and how silly he'll handle the situation usual. Dude is tired of fighting already, imagine him telling the Red Witch not to resurrect him if he dies..lol

Nihilist:

It really irritates me how so many people have been quoting me to chat the weakest bollocks. If you made decent points, I would even concede, but your smug arrogant post is really based on nothing but an attempt to play around semantics.

Even when I quote the characters verbatim, it's not enough.

Glover said he didn't send any more men to the starks because Robb got himself and his men killed, and that's true. The red wedding happened because Robb reneged on a deal - a decision that his more politcally savvy mum and advisers warned would have serious consequences.

Before the broke the deal, Robb was warned. During the wedding itself , Lord Frey explains his motives for the murders. After the wedding, Glover blames Robb.

I cannot for the life of me understand how any right thinking person would try to even argue that point.


Again, Jon goes to Manderly to ask for men. Manderly refuses because he feels that if he sends his men with Jon, they will die for nothing. Again, I cannot see how this does not connote questioning of jon's Judgement. A leader says come with me, you refuse, but you're not questioning his leadership? You say Manderly is merely "skeptical". Check your dictionary for the meaning of that word, and you will find that it is 'synonymous' with the word 'questioning'!

The discussion with Lyanna is probably the clearest argument there. Jon came to ask for men for his own battle against Ramsay and got shut down quick. It was only when Davos raised the spectre of the white walkers coming for then all, that she decided to join them.

How can Aliser poison the minds of a group of subordinates against a leader that they trust? How? How?

Mate the post you quoted was not addressed to you. And if you have opposing views, then by all means share them on the thread. But please don't quote me to post such utter rubbish. Please don't waste my time.

There are so many things i want to say to u, but my I'm too lazy to type and u also said not to waste your time so I'll respect that and say only this.
A ma knows nothing.

armadeo:

I don't think so. You know it appears Jamie arrived at the coronation.
Seeing cersei on the throne meant his last child was dead.
Thats the look they shared.

I doubt that

No one is talking about ARYA STARK OF WINTERFELL. I love that character.

gj22:


I haven't read the books but looking at the hands he has been dealt on the show, he is a good leader. He knows the right thing and tries to do it damn the consequences.

Ramsay or any other ruler would have murdered the other lords for refusing h but he didn't do that because of the bigger picture.

He brought the Wildlings to the other side of the wall because of the bigger picture.

He was elected lord commander with maester Aemon (a very wise man) voting for him

Unlike Robb, He betrayed the girl he loved because of the bigger picture

He led the battle at the wall after Thorne fell

He is a good man and a better leader. That is how he is portrayed in the show. He is a stark and starks are honorable people

I don't really love Jon, he is just another character to me. I love Arya, the red woman and cercei. When i say love, i mean it's their story i am more interested in.

this Damn d consequences na y 9ja sti dey here
True he handled himself better than most wit d cards he was dealt

As 4 dealing with the lords lol One he wasn't a lord interestingly I think he'd Make d same choice

D challenge I've is dt Stark nature Robs own dt he has, I like d guy Interestingly he's one of my favorite xters cos he embodies virtues I don't play with

I believe his experiences over time will shape him into d man he ought to be he's still young yu kno A good soldier not a Gr8 commander even Rob did better in battles

As him assuming Lord commander dont know how it happened in d show
Twas Sam who made it happen in d book

He did too well in d battle on d wall honestly I was shocked considering his wound n lost love

Letting in d wildlings was a gr8 decision a good one even Lord Commander Mormont in d books was smhow considering it

And yes D red woman n Arya r to be watched