Gbola5:



That was Sweet Robin's Jus Ad Bellum, imposed on him by Littlefinger. All Littlefinger wanted was the Knights of the Vale mobilised and in his command.

what if he,Robin said no?
what would happen.
believe me if LF could maintain some form of control over the vale without Robin,he'll fly after his mother.

@braniacX
Like I said arya probably helped with the Frey problem,but obstacles still dey.
Edmure is the key to the riverlands even if the highest ranking Frey's are dead somebody must've seen the strategic value of holding edmure hostage.
(except if the blackfish isn't dead I don't think he is I doubt stannis death too,but that na another story)

I do not recall LF,highest ranking Vale man chanting the king in the north,
Like all the other Northern's lords.
I trust LF to watch out for number 1.

Gbola5:


I think Larry is done following Carol's orders. Carol's crowning will be more than Larry can take.

And i also think larry apart from his incest and ingrained compulsion to honour his blood ties is one of the most honourable knights in westeros, this is something he dislikes being broadcasted as it will deduct from his notoriety and infamy which i think (I might be wrong though) he enjoyed in his youth, now he is getting older, wiser and weighing actions with consequences more correctly and also when push comes to shove, I think he will be the valonquar of the prophecy to end carol not dinklage and he'll be doing it to save what's left of his house despite how that act will be akin to killing himself but that is for the future, for now larry must and will serve carols whims and caprices if for nothing else, the unity of a house beset by foes on every side

SIRcumalot:

what if he,Robin said no?
what would happen.
believe me if LF could maintain some of control over the vale without Robin he'll fly after his mother.

Robin didn't need to say yes. Littlefinger is Lord Protector of the Vale till Sweet Robin comes of age. He still needs Sweet Robin to gain the support of the Lords of the Vale. The 'rescuing your cousin' part is getting Sweet Robin to play along with him, and now he has his army.

BraniacX:


And i also think larry apart from his incest and ingrained compulsion to honour his blood ties is one of the most honourable knights in westeros, this is something he dislikes being broadcasted as it will deduct from his notoriety and infamy which i think (I might be wrong though) he enjoyed in his youth, now he is getting older, wiser and weighing actions with consequences more correctly and also when push comes to shove, I think he will be the valonquar of the prophecy to end carol not dinklage and he'll be doing it to save what's left of his house despite how that act will be akin to killing himself but that is for the future, for now larry must and will serve carols whims and caprices if for nothing else, the unity of a house beset by foes on every side

We should be getting Jaime back. Larry is a bore.

Gbola5:


Robin didn't need to say yes. Littlefinger is Lord Protector of the Vale till Sweet Robin comes of age. He still needs Sweet Robin to gain the support of the Lords of the Vale. The 'rescuing your cousin' part is getting Sweet Robin to play along with him, and now he has his army.

if he never needed Robin say so why ask?
he could've easily ordered the men to go fight for him without all the song and dance.

littlefingers power is simply because he is the boys ward.
watch that episode again he threatened one of the lords with the moon door through the boy.

SIRcumalot:
@braniacX
Like I said arya probably helped with the Frey problem,but obstacles still dey.
Edmure is the key to the riverlands even if the highest ranking Frey's are dead somebody must've seen the strategic value of holding edmure hostage.
(except if the blackfish isn't dead I don't think he is I doubt stannis death too,but that na another story)

I do not recall LF,highest ranking Vale man chanting the king in the north,
Like all the other Northern's lords.
I trust LF to watch out for number 1.

You don't understand westerosi politics very well then, other great noble houses of the riverlands if truth be told view the tullys with a bit more respect than other great northern houses viewed the boltons and by that i mean they consider them as equals and not that too superior, the tullys elevation to high lordship is as recent as 300 years ago and before then, house tully like other great riverland houses contended for supremacy with the rest! So yes they will rally around edmure because he's their lord but they won't sacrifice their independence to save edmure's skin like riverruns master of arms did, they'll more likely rally behind a king in the north (preferably a true stark and child of catelyn stark) than they'll rally behind a tully lord of the riverlands.

Littlefinger isn't the vales highest ranking man! Asides the puppet boy lord, bronze yohn royce is the vales most powerful noble and on his own without other lords of the vale, his is a formidable house and army but unfortunately he has to defer to his puppet overlord and his puppetmaster baelish pulling the strings and i would believe bronze yohn royce is all for the king in the north (his house is descended from the first men too) and royce's only real battle is weaning his weakling lord from his manipulator but unfortunately his adversary is a master at manipulation hence his situation

BraniacX:


I disagree with you, starks individually might not be held in the highest regards but when push comes to shove the name "stark" is worth gold across westeros and anybody with that name or affiliation gets audience from lords and commoners, has castle gates and halls open to them, gets men to rally behind their banners so scoff at this assertion all you want, the starks are stuff of legends and by comparism in westeros, only the arryns and the lannisters come close, the baratheons, tullys, tyrells, martells and greyjoys have their elevation to high lordship as a recent phenomenom and a quirk of fortune associated to targayrean conquest and rhoynar sojourn, the gadeners of the reach, the casterlys of the west, the mudd of the riverlands, the durrandions of the stormlands, maybe the harren of the iron islands, the royce of the vale were all ancient houses comparable to the starks but among these lot the starks were the longest lasting so saying that the stark name doesn't carry weight politically is simply laughable!

Man, please try to use better formatting. It's difficult to follow your train of thought when you write like this. The paragraph above for example, is all one sentence.

Anyway, I think that you are failing to differentiate between past and present. In the past, up until say the death of Eddard Stark, most of what you said there would have applied. After the death of Ed Stark, there has be a systematic decimation of the Stark Legacy leading to the point where even the Lord of Winterfell(The Stark Ancestral Seat) is now being held by a non-Stark.

Let me break it down for you.

1. Ed Stark, the highest ranking of the Starks is slaughtered in public and his head used to serve as a reminder of Lannister might.

2. Sansa Stark who was Bethrothed to the king, and arguably the next highest ranking Stark after Ed, had her engagement canceled in public. To further convince doubter's like yourself that this was yet another strike to the Stark prestige, she was then re-assigned by Tywin Lannister to marry the most loathed lannister of all - an actual midget. This was disrespect of the highest level.

3. The next highest Ranking Stark aka Robb was first disrespected by the Karstarks who decided to fvck him over and leave his cause. Then the Lannisters arranged for him, his mother, and his pregnant wife to be slaughtered like livestock in public. Robb's body was mutilated in death. They sewed the head of his dog to his shoulders and paraded the body in the street. To put it in perspective, even Abacha didnt suffer that much disrespect when he died.

4. The Stark traditional title was given to the Boltons. Even Theon fancied his chances against the Starks and actually took their castle, though he was just naturally stupid in the end.

5. The next highest ranking Stark in Bran has been forced in exile. Arya too. Rickon was kept captive in his own ancestral home and then shot down like a dog.

6. When Sansa and Jon went to gather support in the Stark name, the truth about the Stark political influence was brutally laid bare. Lyanna refuses to join the Stark's political war until Davos tells her about the White Walkers, and Lord Glover categorically tells Jon to his face that the "
Starks are Dead"

7. The King in the North is NOT a Stark.

my point is in normal climes the name "stark" was sufficient to assemble all these houses without threats, coercion or bribes, the name "stark" is the name they'll all answer to no matter how powerful they are individually so that says much for your assertion that house stark and the name stark is politically irrelevant

This are not "normal climes". Like I said earlier, there was a time when the Targaryen ruled Westeros. Nobody reckons with that name now. This does not mean that these names cannot be used to provide some legitimacy of course. Danaerys for example, will be relying on her name to legitimise her rule AFTER she has conquered, with the excuse that her ancestors were once kings anyway. That was the same gameplan that both Stannis and Renly had intended to execute.

It's important to note what was said about Jon before he was crowned King in the North. Lyanna points out that Jon is a bastard but the blood of Eddard Stark flows through him. This is actually quite different from 'He is a Stark'. The 'blood of eddard stark' was only used to provide a tenous connection to the Starks that was plausible enough to justify their personal faith in Jon, rather than thier fealty to the Starks. If the were going on blind allegiance, they would have been compelled to swear an oath to the actual Stark who was sat right there in the very same room, right next to Jon in fact.

The Starks are dead.

It's cool if you don't agree sha. We can't all see things the same way.

Nihilist:


Man, please try to use better formatting. It's difficult to follow your train of thought when you write like this. The paragraph above for example, is all one sentence.

Anyway, I think that you are failing to differentiate between past and present. In the past, up until say the death of Eddard Stark, most of what you said there would have applied. After the death of Ed Stark, there has be a systematic decimation of the Stark Legacy leading to the point where even the Lord of Winterfell(The Stark Ancestral Seat) is now being held by a non-Stark.

Let me break it down for you.

1. Ed Stark, the highest ranking of the Starks is slaughtered in public and his head used to serve as a reminder of Lannister might.

2. Sansa Stark who was Bethrothed to the king, and arguably the next highest ranking Stark after Ed, had her engagement canceled in public. To further convince doubter's like yourself that this was yet another strike to the Stark prestige, she was then re-assigned by Tywin Lannister to marry the most loathed lannister of all - an actual midget. This was disrespect of the highest level.

3. The next highest Ranking Stark aka Robb was first disrespected by the Karstarks who decided to fvck him over and leave his cause. Then the Lannisters arranged for him, his mother, and his pregnant wife to be slaughtered like livestock in public. Robb's body was mutilated in death. They sewed the head of his dog to his shoulders and paraded the body in the street. To put it in perspective, even Abacha didnt suffer that much disrespect when he died.

4. The Stark traditional title was given to the Boltons. Even Theon fancied his chances against the Starks and actually took their castle, though he was just naturally stupid in the end.

5. The next highest ranking Stark in Bran has been forced in exile. Arya too. Rickon was kept captive in his own ancestral home and then shot down like a dog.

6. When Sansa and Jon went to gather support in the Stark name, the truth about the Stark political influence was brutally laid bare. Lyanna refuses to join the Stark's political war until Davos tells her about the White Walkers, and Lord Glover categorically tells Jon to his face that the "
Starks are Dead"

7. The King in the North is NOT a Stark.



This are not "normal climes". Like I said earlier, there was a time when the Targaryen ruled Westeros. Nobody reckons with that name now. This does not mean that these names cannot be used to provide some legitimacy of course. Danaerys for example, will be relying on her name to legitimise her rule AFTER she has conquered, with the excuse that her ancestors were once kings anyway. That was the same gameplan that both Stannis and Renly had intended to execute.

It's important to note what was said about Jon before he was crowned King in the North. Lyanna points out that Jon is a bastard but the blood of Eddard Stark flows through him. This is actually quite different from 'He is a Stark'. The 'blood of eddard stark' was only used to provide a tenous connection to the Starks that was plausible enough to justify their personal faith in Jon, rather than thier fealty to the Starks. If the were going on blind allegiance, they would have been compelled to swear an oath to the actual Stark who was sat right there in the very same room, right next to Jon in fact.

The Starks are dead.

It's cool if you don't agree sha. We can't all see things the same way.

Hahahahahaha

You're determined to be difficult but check stark history, this is not the first time starks have been betrayed (the greystarks of white habour joined the boltons in rebellion against the starks) beheaded (one time too many) flayed (boltons used to wear the skin of dead starks into battle) or had winterfell burnt and occupied (it has happened at least twice before) but the starks always endure and the north endure as long as the starks! The starks are not followed for their name alone, they are an hardy and notoriously unyielding line (the north wasn't always one kingdom, the starks conquered and assimilated other kingdoms including those of the boltons, umbers e.t.c and became supreme). Some Other northern houses owe their lordships to earlier starks (e.g the mormonts, karstarks, manderlys) and that is not easily forgotten except in this rare instance of kinslaying (robb stark beheading rickard karstark) it is a popular saying in westeros that when you scratch a karstark you'll find a stark

The starks greatest failing was their absolute faith in the loyalty of their bannermen which mid you isn't misplaced because minus an ambitious bolton or two, the entire north has been very starky for generations untold, the bolton called roose was a proverbial kitten in a pigeon nest that unsettled the north in his quest not for northern dominance but bolton dominance irrespective of the cost! The boltons were heavily resented for it and even roose acknowledged the fact that only careful politicking could grant him security in the north gettit ? bolton rule despite appearances was never secure in the north from onset to end!

The blood of eddard stark was rationalised to adopt jon as a male stark whose offspring(s) would be eddard's by blood if not by law!

Sansa like i pointed out earlier wasn't recognised because she is female, regarded as weak and is seen as the only stark majorly susceptible to political manipulations of whose results need not necessarily be in the interest of the stark lineage and by extension the north, she was simply a gamble no northern lord was willing to make so they quashed the political ambitions of many a ambitious noble who wanted to use her apparent birthright as a launchpad to greater things and a bargaining chip! Even she herself wisely acknowledged this when she tacitly supported jon for elevation and turned down little fingers request. Her marriage to tyrion was coerced and to ramsay a miscalculation on her part not an insult to the starks! If there was no tyrion, tywin would have wed her to lancel and if jamie wasn't hung up on cersei and agreed to leave the kingsguard to jamie as the idea was to weld the north to the lannisters cause by westerosi law at least

Jon is a targayrean not stark bastard and we know this, howland reed knows this, bran knows this but nobody else does the northern lords worked with what they knew

Bran is still alive, we know this, meera reed knows this, benjen stark knows this, jon and sansa hope this is true but nobody else does and frankly with him being cripple, they believe he is long dead! So again the northern lords worked with what they know. if bran should show up and make his claim, jon would willingly abdicate and support him and the northern lords would follow suit and jon would be the backbone of his kingdom and his pillar because both of them are wards of ned stark and if jon's parentage should come to light, the north would prop him up and support a bid for the iron throne by him and bran would revert to being lord of the north

We're not actually supposed to agree on everything but that's the fun of this thread
And please forgive my disjointed writing

I fe

w

I feel unqualified to comment here because I only saw season 6 of GOT due to GRRM being too lazy to finish a book in five years, but I feel like the writing was poor don't get me wrong the show was good but with the material they had they should have done better.too many potholes,poor understanding of the world of ice and fire, it feels like the writers just want things to happen even if they don't add up

BraniacX:


Hahahahahaha

You're determined to be difficult but check stark history, this is not the first time starks have been betrayed (the greystarks of white habour joined the boltons in rebellion against the starks) beheaded (one time too many) flayed (boltons used to wear the skin of dead starks into battle) or had winterfell burnt and occupied (it has happened at least twice before) but the starks always endure and the north endure as long as the starks! The starks are not followed for their name alone, they are an hardy and notoriously unyielding line (the north wasn't always one kingdom, the starks conquered and assimilated other kingdoms including those of the boltons, umbers e.t.c and became supreme). Some Other northern houses owe their lordships to earlier starks (e.g the mormonts, karstarks, manderlys) and that is not easily forgotten except in this rare instance of kinslaying (robb stark beheading rickard karstark) it is a popular saying in westeros that when you scratch a karstark you'll find a stark

This is all completely irrelevant to the show. The book and the show are now completely different universes.

The starks greatest failing was their absolute faith in the loyalty of their bannermen which mid you isn't misplaced because minus an ambitious bolton or two, the entire north has been very starky for generations untold, the bolton called roose was a proverbial kitten in a pigeon nest that unsettled the north in his quest not for northern dominance but bolton dominance irrespective of the cost! The boltons were heavily resented for it and even roose acknowledged the fact that only careful politicking could grant him security in the north gettit ? bolton rule despite appearances was never secure in the north from onset to end!

Also irrelevant as nothing here discounts the the fall of the starks...if anything, it explains it.

Sansa like i pointed out earlier wasn't recognised because she is female, regarded as weak and is seen as the only stark majorly susceptible to political manipulations of whose results need not necessarily be in the interest of the stark lineage and by extension the north, she was simply a gamble no northern lord was willing to make so they quashed the political ambitions of many a ambitious noble who wanted to use her apparent birthright as a launchpad to greater things and a bargaining chip! Even she herself wisely acknowledged this when she tacitly supported jon for elevation and turned down little fingers request. Her marriage to tyrion was coerced and to ramsay a miscalculation on her part not an insult to the starks! If there was no tyrion, tywin would have wed her to lancel and if jamie wasn't hung up on cersei and agreed to leave the kingsguard to jamie as the idea was to weld the north to the lannisters cause by westerosi law at least

Irrelevant. How can Sansa be seen as weak because she's female when theres a 10 year old female lord present in that very room? Catelyn Stark and her Sister were also political juggernauts in their own right. Yara, Olenna and Danaerys have teamed up with the Taylor Swift squad from Dorne, and they all have confirmed political clout.

There is absolutely no reason for the nothern lords to believe that she is 'susceptible to blah blah'. I will agin remind you that the vale serves a clear dimwit without question, and the mormonts follow a girl who is yet to grow pubic hairs.

Sansa is a Stark. Those who have pledged to follow the Starks would have followed her if they truly were interested in following the Starks. Instead they chose to follow a Jon Snow using the excuse that he has some Stark Blood. The Starks are dead.

Jon is a targayrean not stark bastard and we know this, howland reed knows this, bran knows this but nobody else does cheesy the northern lords worked with what they knew wink

Which makes it even worse. He is presumed to be a Stark bastard and pronounced king in the north regardless of the legal precedents that bastard cannot hold titles. By the time, the truth of his parentage becomes known to the world, it would serve as confirmation bias to those who already decided t crown him king. So what happens to the stark line and holdings when the king of the north is revealed to be neither a stark in name or in lineage? Do you see Jon being stripped of the title for say Bran? I most certainly dont

Bran is still alive, we know this, meera reed knows this, benjen stark knows this, jon and sansa hope this is true but nobody else does and frankly with him being cripple, they believe he is long dead! So again the northern lords worked with what they know. cheesy if bran should show up and make his claim, jon would willingly abdicate and support him and the northern lords would follow suit and jon would be the backbone of his kingdom and his pillar because both of them are wards of ned stark and if jon's parentage should come to light, the north would prop him up and support a bid for the iron throne by him and bran would revert to being lord of the north

Also irrelevant, because even if Bran manages to crawl back into Winterfell tommorow, his birthright has passed him by. Aint nobody giving it back.

We're not actually supposed to agree on everything but that's the fun of this thread grin
And please forgive my disjointed writing

Aye and amen to this.

Nihilist:


This is all completely irrelevant to the show. The book and the show are now completely different universes.



Also irrelevant as nothing here discounts the the fall of the starks...if anything, it explains it.



Irrelevant. How can Sansa be seen as weak because she's female when theres a 10 year old female lord present in that very room? Catelyn Stark and her Sister were also political juggernauts in their own right. Yara, Olenna and Danaerys have teamed up with the Taylor Swift squad from Dorne, and they all have confirmed political clout.

There is absolutely no reason for the nothern lords to believe that she is 'susceptible to blah blah'. I will agin remind you that the vale serves a clear dimwit without question, and the mormonts follow a girl who is yet to grow pubic hairs.

Sansa is a Stark. Those who have pledged to follow the Starks would have followed her if they truly were interested in following the Starks. Instead they chose to follow a Jon Snow using the excuse that he has some Stark Blood. The Starks are dead.



Which makes it even worse. He is presumed to be a Stark bastard and pronounced king in the north regardless of the legal precedents that bastard cannot hold titles. By the time, the truth of his parentage becomes known to the world, it would serve as confirmation bias to those who already decided t crown him king. So what happens to the stark line and holdings when the king of the north is revealed to be neither a stark in name or in lineage? Do you see Jon being stripped of the title for say Bran? I most certainly dont



Also irrelevant, because even if Bran manages to crawl back into Winterfell tommorow, his birthright has passed him by. Aint nobody giving it back.




Aye and amen to this.

You make a couple of miscalculations here, one being that sansa by right should be lady as is obtainable elsewhere which is right but then again sansa has never been groomed for the role at any point in time so making a claim for herself was somewhat alien to her (not wrong mind you) and the northern lords can't support a claim if the claimant isn't willing to make it so naturally they do the obvious and follow strength and leadership besides which, sansa has long been and been seen to be a puppet whose strings is being pulled by other people, an image she has done little to invalidate so while in their heart of hearts, the northern lords know sansa should rule, they are unsure what her rule will imply and the next best available alternative is jon whose agenda is in alliance with theirs, whose leadership is tested and respected so they rationalise his being a pseudo-stark and thus earn security for their concerns and this reasons are not irrelevant, every other character you mentioned to buttress your point always keep going of about how theirs is the rightful claim but sansa insists on "house starks" claim not hers being rightful and mentioned on more than one occasion jon being as stark as you can get as far as she is concerned so yes, she influenced the decision to crown jon as the northern lords can't force her into a role she clearly is shying away from.

If bran crawls back to winterfell tomorrow and stakes a claim, jon abdicates and the north follows suit! Jon's acceptance of kingship isn't an end on its own, rather, it is the means to an end vis-a-vis avenging his family and defeating the night walkers! So jon and bran slugging it out for winterfell........ Not gonna ever happen!

BraniacX:


You make a couple of miscalculations here, one being that sansa by right should be lady as is obtainable elsewhere which is right but then again sansa has never been groomed for the role at any point in time so making a claim for herself was somewhat alien to her (not wrong mind you) and the northern lords can't support a claim if the claimant isn't willing to make it so naturally they do the obvious and follow strength and leadership besides which, sansa has long been and been seen to be a puppet whose strings is being pulled by other people, an image she has done little to invalidate so while in their heart of hearts, the northern lords know sansa should rule, they are unsure what her rule will imply and the next best available alternative is jon whose agenda is in alliance with theirs, whose leadership is tested and respected so they rationalise his being a pseudo-stark and thus earn security for their concerns and this reasons are not irrelevant, every other character you mentioned to buttress your point always keep going of about how theirs is the rightful claim but sansa insists on "house starks" claim not hers being rightful and mentioned on more than one occasion jon being as stark as you can get as far as she is concerned so yes, she influenced the decision to crown jon as the northern lords can't force her into a role she clearly is shying away from.

Again this is all completely irrelavant. As the last known surviving Stark, Winterfell should be Sansa's by inheritance right. Indeed Jon alludes to this when he offers to set her up in the master bedroom.

The fact that she was passed over without a a single thought shows how little regard the nothern lords have for Sansa, and by the extension the Starks. Again, I will refer you to lady mormont who is 10 years old and cannot be reasonably expected to be a wise ruler,but there she is. The vale boy is a known nincompoop, but there he is. Joffrey and Tommen were terrible rulers, but there they were.

Inheritance has nothing to do with what the subjects think of their new rulers. They just accept it. I particularly raised this key point around a month and half ago when I was arguing that lyanna mormont as a lord logically makes no sense.

"The Starks are dead" - Lord Glover.

That's the only logical explanation for Sansa's loss of her birthright.

We've about 13 episodes left all the players have been introduced
We won't be seeing another house playing a significant impact

Most of what am getting here na just hypothetical stuff.

edmure commanded his castle be opened to the Lannister army
some of which undoubtedly contained his bannermen and they obeyed at great personal risk
They could easily have rallied around a better leader the "blackfish" and tell Jamie to go fist his sister they didn't.

We agree,that LF powers lies in his ability to manipulate the retard.
The man who has the ears of the sweet Robin didn't chant Jon's name.
BraniacX.

Nihilist:


Again this is all completely irrelavant. As the last known surviving Stark, Winterfell should be Sansa's by inheritance right. Indeed Jon alludes to this when he offers to set her up in the master bedroom.

The fact that she was passed over without a a single thought shows how little regard the nothern lords have for Sansa, and by the extension the Starks. Again, I will refer you to lady mormont who is 10 years old and cannot be reasonably expected to be a wise ruler,but there she is. The vale boy is a known nincompoop, but there he is. Joffrey and Tommen were terrible rulers, but there they were.

Inheritance has nothing to do with what the subjects think of their new rulers. They just accept it. I particularly raised this key point around a month and half ago when I was arguing that lyanna mormont as a lord logically makes no sense.

"The Starks are dead" - Lord Glover.

That's the only logical explanation for Sansa's loss of her birthright.

Jon is as much a stark as ramsay a bolton ..... Sansa to lyanna mormont

You're a son of ned stark and a stark to me ............... Sansa to jon

Point! Sansa's desire for the strong arm of jon to take up the leadership of the north is an open secret so she and the stark name wasn't passed over without concern, her wish which she made obvious on more than one occasion was only respected

I rest my case

SIRcumalot:
We've about 13 episodes left all the players have been introduced
We won't be seeing another house playing a significant impact

Most of what am getting here na just hypothetical stuff.

edmure commanded his castle be opened to the Lannister army
some of which undoubtedly contained his bannermen and they obeyed at great personal risk
They could easily have rallied around a better leader the "blackfish" and tell Jamie to go fist his sister they didn't.

We agree,that LF powers lies in his ability to manipulate the retard.
The man who has the ears of the sweet Robin didn't chant Jon's name.
BraniacX.

Edmure's castle contained non of his bannermen, only a handful of riverruns men at arms

And yes most of it is hypothetical, but also it is based on history, precedence and character analysis

BraniacX:


Jon is as much a stark as ramsay a bolton ..... Sansa to lyanna mormont

You're a son of ned stark and a stark to me ............... Sansa to jon

Point! Sansa's desire for the strong arm of jon to take up the leadership of the north is an open secret so she and the stark name wasn't passed over without concern, her wish which she made obvious on more than one occasion was only respected

I rest my case

Again all of this is story.

Bastards cannot assume titles. That is a legal precedent. Sansa's feelings(questionable) are irrelevant in this regard. The legal chain of events there according to precedent would be - Sansa is officially recognised as the only known surviving Stark, and thus lady of winterfell, and possibly queen in the north. She would then promote Jon from bastard to full blown stark. I should not have to remind you that that was exactly how Ramsay Bolton became Warden of the North. And I believe even Robb promised to legitimise Jon.

Yet standard procedure was completely ignored in Jon's case. Historical traditions and legal precedents as seen in the show were completely discarded in favour of Jon and to the Sansa's detriment.

Instead what we have is a Snow(and possible targaryen) leading the Starks. This anomaly is precisely what baelish is using to seduce Sansa..

The Starks are DEAD.

Nihilist:


Again all of this is story.

Bastards cannot assume titles. That is a legal precedent. Sansa's feelings(questionable) are irrelevant in this regard. The legal chain of events there according to precedent would be - Sansa is officially recognised as the only known surviving Stark, and thus lady of winterfell, and possibly queen in the north. She would then promote Jon from bastard to full blown stark. I should not have to remind you that that was exactly how Ramsay Bolton became Warden of the North. And I believe even Robb promised to legitimise Jon.

Yet standard procedure was completely ignored in Jon's case. Historical traditions and legal precedents as seen in the show were completely discarded in favour of Jon and to the Sansa's detriment.

Instead what we have is a Snow(and possible targaryen) leading the Starks. This anomaly is precisely what baelish is using to seduce Sansa..

The Starks are DEAD.

Robb did legitimise jon, problem is the signatories to that document are too dead to testify! Now that is another theory for you to bite! The fact that his surviving northern lords know that king robb wanted jon not sansa to succeed him and not just succeed him, succeed him legally! I think lord mallister was a signatory to that document and he's still alive................ We'll see

BraniacX:



Edmure's castle contained non of his bannermen, only a handful of riverruns men at arms

And yes most of it is hypothetical, but also it is based on history, precedence and character analysis

I just checked my book copy again I take back that "bannerman" part their was indeed,defection in the riverlands only the Tully and one other house haven't yielded.

this still doesn't change who the Frey and the riverlands will follow in the coming battle.

SIRcumalot:

I just checked my book copy again I take back that "bannerman" part their was indeed,defection in the riverlands only the Tully and one other house haven't yielded.

this still doesn't change who the Frey and the riverlands will follow in the coming battle.

In the books, the freys aren't dead yet, on the screen they are gettit? In the books there's still a tyrell, lannister and pseudo-martell alliance on screen not so, so the lannisters are too busy to care about the riverlands on screen so the freys are dead on arrival given the internal jockeying for power going on while walder frey still lived! In the booKs at least

BraniacX:

In the books, the freys aren't dead yet, on the screen they are gettit? In the books there's still a tyrell, lannister and pseudo-martell alliance on screen not so, so the lannisters are too busy to care about the riverlands on screen so the freys are dead on arrival given the internal jockeying for power going on while walder frey still lived! In the booKs at least

Jamie just came to the riverlands to stop the riverrun siege with the lannister army those aren't the actions of a house who doesn't care.
The Frey's will fight amongst themselves but when the Lannister's call they will answer.

SIRcumalot:

Jamie just came to the riverlands to stop the riverrun siege with the lannister army those aren't the actions of a house who doesn't care.
The Frey's will fight amongst themselves but when the Lannister's call they will answer.

He went there at the behest of his king at the behest of the high sparrow who wanted him out of kingslanding to have an easier shot at bringing down cercei lannister! It has nothing to do with caring, and what army do the freys posses to go to the lannisters aid assuming they ever unite and march under one banner? Militarily house mallister is stronger than they are, they can barely field 3000 troops in total, how can that be of any help to house lannister? And they are constantly being harassed and decimated by the BWB plus if they march in full strength to war they leave the twins exposed to assault and conquest by their numerous enemies its a no win situation for house frey

Finally watched Season 6 now re following...


So John Snow is not NedStark Son afterall?

I love the way Arya killed Waller Fray so sweet...

What's with the "starks are dead" comment?

Bran is alive.
Benjen is alive.
Arya is alive.
Jon is alive.
Sansa is alive.
The North is still alive.

The North remembers! The North remembers that the starks are Warden/Kings in the North for close to a thousand years.

If the starks are truly dead, why are these 5 alive? Anybody

Nihilist:


Again all of this is story.

Bastards cannot assume titles. That is a legal precedent. Sansa's feelings(questionable) are irrelevant in this regard. The legal chain of events there according to precedent would be - Sansa is officially recognised as the only known surviving Stark, and thus lady of winterfell, and possibly queen in the north. She would then promote Jon from bastard to full blown stark. I should not have to remind you that that was exactly how Ramsay Bolton became Warden of the North. And I believe even Robb promised to legitimise Jon.

Yet standard procedure was completely ignored in Jon's case. Historical traditions and legal precedents as seen in the show were completely discarded in favour of Jon and to the Sansa's detriment.

Instead what we have is a Snow(and possible targaryen) leading the Starks. This anomaly is precisely what baelish is using to seduce Sansa..

The Starks are DEAD.

You start your comments with, " All of this is story/irrelevant", and then it spirals down to "We are allowed to have different views" ? Actually Bastards can. Larence Snow who would have continued the Hornwood line. Another would be Daemon Sand, heir to Ryon Allyrion. As to why Sansa was passed over, i do not know, but it is possible she may have turned over events to favor Jon.

BraniacX:


Robb did legitimise jon, problem is the signatories to that document are too dead to testify! Now that is another theory for you to bite! The fact that his surviving northern lords know that king robb wanted jon not sansa to succeed him and not just succeed him, succeed him legally! I think lord mallister was a signatory to that document and he's still alive................ We'll see

It was Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover who were sent to deliver Robb's Will. They're both still alive in the books. In the show, they mentioned something about Maege dying.

BraniacX:


He went there at the behest of his king at the behest of the high sparrow who wanted him out of kingslanding to have an easier shot at bringing down cercei lannister! It has nothing to do with caring, and what army do the freys posses to go to the lannisters aid assuming they ever unite and march under one banner? Militarily house mallister is stronger than they are, they can barely field 3000 troops in total, how can that be of any help to house lannister? And they are constantly being harassed and decimated by the BWB plus if they march in full strength to war they leave the twins exposed to assault and conquest by their numerous enemies its a no win situation for house frey

Actually the Freys were House Tully's strongest bannermen, 4,000 strong. But they always go into battle leaving like half or more of their troops behind incase their side loses. And with House Lannister's forces diminished, and their alliances with Dorne and House Tyrells severed, the Freys are not just going to answer a call from House Lannister, they will rethink more than usual.

Nihilist:


This is all completely irrelevant to the show. The book and the show are now completely different universes.
There is absolutely no reason for the nothern lords to believe that she is 'susceptible to blah blah'. I will agin remind you that the vale serves a clear dimwit without question, and the mormonts follow a girl who is yet to grow pubic hairs.

Not entirely. They still have the same past and history till the start of the series, whether it's shown or not. Also the Vale and Bear Island didn't have a succession crisis.

Gbola5:


Actually the Freys were House Tully's strongest bannermen, 4,000 strong. But they always go into battle leaving like half or more of their troops behind incase their side loses. And with House Lannister's forces diminished, and their alliances with Dorne and House Tyrells severed, the Freys are not just going to answer a call from House Lannister, they will rethink more than usual.

I know the freys are the strongest but that is by default!!! They attained that status by withholding troops from their liege lord of house tully throughout walders lifetime!! Before then the ever loyal ever serving mallisters were the strongest bannermen of house tully

Gbola5:


It was Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover who were sent to deliver Robb's Will. They're both still alive in the books. In the show, they mentioned something about Maege dying.

Rober glover is alive, galbart is unaccounted for though what if any correspondence over jon both might have had is unknown!!! They (galbart and maege) were the couriers, the signatories however were many of kings robb northern and riverland lords excluding roose bolton who wasn't present of course