Afam4eva:
Ideologies are wayyy deeper than manifestos. Ideologies are deep rooted in behaviors.

Here we go again. Oxymoronic talk and saying something without really saying anything. If you don't mind me asking, are you always 'intoxicated' with ultra-potent SK?

Night all

Afam4eva:
Ideologies are wayyy deeper than manifestos. Ideologies are deep rooted in behaviors.

Though there's not too much difference between both words, but ideology means little or nothing to the electorates while manifesto means a whole lot because manifesto is a written statement declaring publicly the intentions, motives, or views of its issuer.

You hardly offer anything meaningful sha..

Afam4eva:
Ideologies are wayyy deeper than manifestos. Ideologies are deep rooted in behaviors.

They're basically the same thing. Manifesto just gives you a clearer picture of what the ideology is albeit in a comprehensive manner.

For example: when you hear the republicans in America, you know straight that they're right-wingers and their ideology revolves around capitalism. You don't even need to see the their manifesto to know what the nucleus would be like. Or let's say you see their manifesto first; you should be able to tell what their ideology is.

plaindealer:


Though there's not too much difference between both words, but ideology means little or nothing to the electorates while manifesto means a whole lot because manifesto is a written statement declaring publicly the intentions, motives, or views of its issuer.

You may be right. I have no problem with a party not having an ideology but they shouldn't make us believe that they do. But i also think it's high time Nigerian parties started being ideological so that people can know where they stand on issues without them saying anything. This will also reduce the rate at which these parties contradict themselves.

ShyM-X:


They're basically the same thing. Manifesto just gives you a clearer picture of what the ideology is albeit in a comprehensive manner.

For example: when you hear the republicans in America, you know straight that they're right-wingers and their ideology revolves around capitalism. You don't even need to see the their manifesto to know what the nucleus would be like. Or let's say you see their manifesto first; you should be able to tell what their ideology is.

But, in Nigeria, they change their manifestos regularly.

This is the main reason why we don't have a political class

take dat: Bruv, You are not the only one waiting! We need to know the merits in perpetuating heinous economic crime(oil subsidy fraud) of satanic grandeur just because a party wants to conduct a sham cash- and-carry primaries?

The problem is, they never marshal any sensible arguments to defend their entrenched positions.
Most simply feign ignorance when one suggests that the different methods used to select electoral candidates in Nigeria and beyond, have both merits and demerits, primarily because they are easily given to a state of unreason.

The McGovern–Fraser Commission report, which recommended primaries for the Democratic Party convention of 1972 was not without its critics, for instance

Any number of authorities criticize the reforms as having created “too much” democracy, or a badly conceived democracy, leaving too much of the nominations decision up to an allegedly uninformed, unrepresented, and/or uninterested electorate.

Even before the introduction of the McGovern-Fraser presidential nominating reforms, academics and political practitioners alike wrestled with the questions of nominating procedures, the representativeness of primary electorates, and their implications for democracy. Strong party proponents, worried that primaries dilute party influence over nominations and thus impeded party discipline and effectiveness in governing. Others have contended that the biases inherent in the primary electorates (the overrepresentation of some groups and the under-representation of others) deprive minority groups of their democratic voice.

Beyond the scholarly debates surrounding the direct primary, political parties and their operatives have voiced pragmatic concerns regarding the types of candidates that primaries tend to favor, suggesting that they often produce ideologically extreme candidates who are not always attractive to more moderate, general election voters.

The question of representation and the extent to which primary voters reflect the demographic and attitudinal characteristics of nonvoters and rank-and-file partisans generally has been a long-standing concern to students of primary politics. Some scholars conclude that primary voters are demographically unrepresentative of the larger partisan electorate, while others find fewer differences.

Have the likes of @Ola one ever considered how much the Labour party's short list contributed to the elections of three Black (British) MPs, back in 1987? Can the type of cash-n-carry primaries we operate in Nigeria ever guarantee the increasing numbers of women we see in front row politics in more advanced climes?

These are simply not the kind of questions that are ever crosses the minds of those who see the ruling party as the epitome of internal democracy. Unlike those of us who actually recognise that the selection policy of the Labour party, much like the ACN, does pose problems of its own - Union 'stitch-up is forcing out black Labour candidates': Party suspended selection for council seats in two London boroughs over claims of discrimination - this lot make no pretenses about being objective.

ShyM-X:


They're basically the same thing. Manifesto just gives you a clearer picture of what the ideology is albeit in a comprehensive manner.

For example: when you hear the republicans in America, you know straight that they're right-wingers and their ideology revolves around capitalism. You don't even need to see the their manifesto to know what the nucleus would be like. Or let's say you see their manifesto first; you should be able to tell what their ideology is.

You're wrong with the bolded. That would only be truth if we were to limit it to the economy. Republicans also refered to as "The grand old party" which paints a picture of a party that wants a society that is unadulterated. That's what republicans stand for and is the direct opposite of democrats who tend to be liberal.

eGuerrilla:

The problem is, they never marshal any sensible arguments to defend their entrenched positions.
Most simply feign ignorance when one suggests that the different methods used to select electoral candidates in Nigeria and beyond, have both merits and demerits, primarily because they are easily given to a state of unreason.

The McGovern–Fraser Commission report, which recommended primaries for the Democratic Party convention of 1972 was not without its critics, for instance



Have the likes of @Ola one ever considered how much the Labour party's short list contributed to the elections of three Black (British) MPs, back in 1987? Can the type of cash-n-carry primaries we operate in Nigeria ever guarantee the increasing numbers of women we see in front row politics in more advanced climes?

These are simply not the kind of questions that are ever crosses the minds of those who see the ruling party as the epitome of internal democracy. Unlike those of us who actually recognise that the selection policy of the Labour party, much like the ACN, does pose problems of its own - Union 'stitch-up is forcing out black Labour candidates': Party suspended selection for council seats in two London boroughs over claims of discrimination - this lot make no pretenses about being objective.

But they actually voted. Maybe it was a sham but they voted. ACN operates a veto system direct from Bourdillon Road
From your link:

'Then suddenly, when it came to councillor candidate selection, all these new faces turned up. They were voting for the other candidate.

Afam4eva:
Majority of Nigerians including PDP members believe in the devolution of power. That way, development gets closer to the power. It's not an ACN issue.

I suppose the obvious is not so obvious to you then. If you claim the PDP believe in devolution of power, would the fact they have, in 14 years, not practised anything even minutely indicative of a devotion to such not mean you should be agitating for them to be booted out?

Should you then, as the same person who indicate the PDP has promised and failed, not be behind the notion of Nigeria trying a Party ,with a realistic chance of winning, that has actually stated it will , as cornerstone policy, move for fiscal federalism and devolution of power away from the centre?

I have already hinted that this is the precise modus operandi to be expected from the "what is their plan" crew. When said plans come out, even if brilliant and ostensibly effective, the agenda shift to pooh-poohing such with petty excuses such as "they have all said that before". We then move from "what are their plans" to "they have all made such promises before" when it should be obvious to a child that it is the those that have made such promises and failed who should be booted out so that others can at least be given a chance.

To be a formidable player in the Labour set-up, you need close links to trade unions. I know a lot about how the Labour Party operates.

Ola one:
But, in Nigeria, they change their manifestos regularly.

This is the main reason why we don't have a political class

Perhaps, that's why it's safer for most Nigerians to vote along tribal lines, since none of the political parties represent anything. Honestly, this is pseudo-democracy.

Each member of these unions contributes 3 pounds a year to the Labour Party so they are really powerful.


They contribute millions of pounds every year

ShyM-X:


Perhaps, that's why it's safer for most Nigerians to vote along tribal lines, since none of the political parties represent anything. Honestly, this is pseudo-democracy.

Exactly, my brother. In Nigeria, the lines are blurred, essentially.

Afam4eva:
You're wrong with the bolded. That would only be truth if we were to limit it to the economy. Republicans also refered to as "The grand old party" which paints a picture of a party that wants a society that is unadulterated. That's what republicans stand for and is the direct opposite of democrats who tend to be liberal.

Unadulterated American society created capitalism, an ideology birthed by the yanks. The economy is the nucleus of the society in the westernised world - other things are just at the peripheral. So evidently their ideology will always be based on the economy.

Ola one:

Exactly, my brother. In Nigeria, the lines are blurred, essentially.

Thanks sir.

I understand better now.

I guess I need to start toning down my critique and vitriol against ethnic jingoists on this forum since that's how the game is over there.

ShyM-X:


Thanks sir.

I understand better now.

I guess I need to start toning down my critique and vitriol against ethnic jingoists on this forum since that's how the game is over there.

That's our game in Nigeria.

Up North, up till now, there has never been any protests/riots against a Hausa/Fulani sitting president.

Ditto for South-south right now with GEJ.

A game of "where he comes from before manifestos" is what we play in Nigeria.

Manifestos that they will never follow once elected. So, why bother?

Ola one:
But they actually voted. Maybe it was a sham but they voted. ACN operates a veto system direct from Bourdillon Road
From your link:

Do you see how the two statements I highlighted contradict each other?

Wasn't the former secretary general right after all about the peculiar selection methods used?

You see, the Org Sub controls selections, discipline, the rule book and internal elections. And the reality is, that it is the wording of the rules and regulations for the selection of Parliamentary candidates, approved by the Org Sub that determines whether fine words are translated into reality.

Afam4eva:
You may be right. I have no problem with a party not having an ideology but they shouldn't make us believe that they do.

You really need to stop confusing yourself with the ideology thing and it's already been explained to you. the fact that you think they don't have one doesn't mean they don't.

But i also think it's high time Nigerian parties started being ideological so that people can know where they stand on issues without them saying anything. This will also reduce the rate at which these parties contradict themselves.

Again, manifesto means nothing to the electorates because it's only a belief system while manifestos spells out intentions from what the party plans to do to address every expectations of the electorates.


Please lay off the ideology thing. Even the word progressive = Ideology..

eGuerrilla:

Do you see how the two statements I highlighted contradict each other?

Wasn't the former secretary general right after all about the peculiar selection methods used?

It is politics, bro. It happens a lot in Britain.

Ever wondered why most MPs attended Oxbridge?

Especially, Oxford and Eton?

eGuerrilla, are you saying selection as championed by ACN is better if we can't have a perfect process at the primaries? Are you actually waiting for a 'perfect' process? Do they evn have that across the pond?

ShyM-X:


Perhaps, that's why it's safer for most Nigerians to vote along tribal lines, since none of the political parties represent anything. Honestly, this is pseudo-democracy.

When I look around the world today, I see very few political parties that adhere to any ideology in a strict sense.
That is, once those with unionist roots and outliers, steeped in fascism or religion, are exempted.

eGuerrilla:

Do you see how the two statements I highlighted contradict each other?

Wasn't the former secretary general right after all about the peculiar selection methods used?

The selection is truly peculiar but stated/written in their constitution. ACN hasn't done that

I was waiting to see any indication of APC's proposed agenda before commenting on this thread.

Unlike most people, I believe Nigeria's biggest problem is neither GEJ/Buhari/Tinubu, nor PDP/APC (or whatever "party" ), nor even corruption, but the warped oil-based patronage network (feeding bottle federalism) that has seen most states in Nigeria reduced to beggars, shamelessly making routine trips to Abuja to share "oyel" money.

Nigeria's entire political system is built on oil-based patronage, and the PDP has done almost nothing tangible to address this very serious structural flaw. When will this madness stop?

Sharing oil money in Abuja has killed off the incentive to innovate, to promote local industry, and to drill the limitless human resources, potentials and capabilities of 170 million Nigerians rather than the ultimately finite "black gold" under the ground.

If the APC can present a clear, compelling narrative, a gameplan and agenda for getting Nigeria out of this mess, then I WILL join the party (despite its faults).

For now though, I remain on the fence.

Ola one:
That's our game in Nigeria.

Up North, up till now, there has never been any protests/riots against a Hausa/Fulani sitting president.

Ditto for South-south right now with GEJ.

A game of "where he comes from before manifestos" is what we play in Nigeria.

Manifestos that they will never follow once elected. So, why bother?

You cannot just remain consumed with cynicism. It is not good for Nigeria given that you are likely a young person. Other nations have faced similar developmental/democratic challenges and have not folded their arms to embrace the devil openly because they realise the best approach is always allied to a dedication, as much as possible, to best practices while forward/evolutionary motion continues.

The Tinubu et al you guys obsess over and deify will not live forever. It is not preposterous, if focused ultimately on idea that endure beyond personalities, to suggest it should be people like you positioning your strides to replace them and perhaps introduce the next level of change/evolution you want to see.

HNosegbe: I was waiting to see any indication of APC's proposed agenda before commenting on this thread.

Unlike most people, I believe Nigeria's biggest problem is neither GEJ/Buhari/Tinubu, nor PDP/APC (or whatever "party", nor even corruption, but the warped oil-based patronage network (feeding bottle federalism) that has seen most states in Nigeria reduced to beggars, shamelessly making routine trips to Abuja to share "oyel" money.

Nigeria's entire political system is built on oil-based patronage, and the PDP has done almost nothing tangible to address this very serious structural flaw. When will this madness stop?

Sharing oil money in Abuja has killed off the incentive to innovate, to attract sustainable investments, and to drill the limitless human resources, potentials and capabilities of 170 million Nigerians rather than the ultimately finite "black gold" under the ground.

If the APC can present a clear, compelling narrative, a gameplan and agenda for getting Nigeria out of this mess, then I WILL join the party (despite its faults).

For now though, I remain on the fence.

I don't think they're ready to do that. Just vote for them first and they'll think about it. You have to vote them in because they're in the opposition. Isn't that enough reason?

Gbawe:

You cannot just remain consumed with cynicism. It is not good for Nigeria given that you are likely a young person. Other nations have faced similar developmental/democratic challenges and have not folded their arms to embrace the devil openly because they realise the best approach is always allied to a dedication, as much as possible, to best practices while forward/evolutionary motion continues.

The Tinubu et al you guys obsess over and deify will not live forever. It is not preposterous, if focused ultimately on idea that endure beyond personalities, to suggest it should be people like you positioning your strides to replace them and perhaps introduce the next level of change/evolution you want to see.

Free me abeg Gbawe.

When we talk of ideology, what exactly are people driving at in Nigeria? There is capitalism in Russia and China as we speak. There's no visible ideological divide in the world again.

What's essential is the position of APC on the following:

1. Political Restructuring of Nigeria to a true federal system vs unitary federalism in practice.
2. Derivation principles aka resource control or if you like fiscal federalism
3. Indigineship/citizenship vs Federal character aka quota system.
4. State Police.
5. Policy on minimization of corruption.
6. Secularism vs adoption of Sharia by some states.

Those are the big issues that PDP has not been able to resolve for the past fourteen years and are the ones responsible for the kwashiokor democracy we have now. Root Cause Failure Analysis (RCFA) of any of our present worries is traceable to these issues. Despite overwhelming majority, PDP has been amending the military imposed constitution for ever with nothing fundamentally different.On corruption, PDP has been blowing hot and cold simultaneously resulting in motion without movement.

The rest are mere performance related ones which can manifest in terms of visible infrastructure etc. That depends on competence or track record of individuals. Political parties can simplify the task by having some cardinal programs for ease of campaign but essentially, it's a competence related phenomenon. Basic truth: a Fasola in PDP ll still perform but might have a different outlook of what Nigeria should be or look like and T.A Orji in ACN/APC ll still be a failure anyway. The issue of democratic socialism or capitalism is not relevant in today's Nigeria.

Ola one: eGuerrilla, are you saying selection as championed by ACN is better if we can't have a perfect process at the primaries? Are you actually waiting for a 'perfect' process? Do they evn have that across the pond?

I merely sought to explain its place in contemporary politics, that's all.

Afam4eva:
I don't think they're ready to do that. Just vote for them first and they'll think about it. You have to vote them in because they're in the opposition. Isn't that enough reason?

Read my statement again.

My joining APC is predicated on a well thought-out narrative to solve what, in my opinion, is Nigeria's biggest problem.

If they can provide that narrative, then I will join the party and seek to play my little role in bringing it to reality.

If.

HNosegbe:

Read my statement again.

My joining APC is predicated on a well thought-out narrative to solve what, in my opinion, is Nigeria's biggest problem.

If they can provide that narrative, then I will join the party and seek to play my little role in bringing it to reality.

If.

1. Political Restructuring of Nigeria to a true federal system vs unitary federalism in practice.
2. Derivation principles aka resource control or if you like fiscal federalism
3. Indigineship/citizenship vs Federal character aka quota system.
4. State Police.
5. Policy on minimization of corruption.
6. Secularism vs adoption of Sharia by some states.

If you are really waiting for answers to these questions/issues, then you have to wait for eons; eternity, perhaps.

Ola one:
The selection is truly peculiar but stated/written in their constitution. ACN hasn't done that

Show me where the Labour party mentions a short list in its constitution - http://www.labourcounts.com/constitution.htm