Freksy:

Chibuebem, from where did you get the bolded?

the message//remix by eugene peterson.

frosbel:

2 things.

The angels were not human beings, they only 'appeared' as MEN and almost disappeared after their mission had been accomplished.

Did I call them human beings in my comment? I said they "materialized fleshly bodies"; is there anything wrong with that?

I repeat , they were not in substance MEN, let's leave that stuff to folklore.

It beats me why you repeat the bolded. You want to subtly give the impression that's what you refuted?

frosbel:

100% False.

An Angel does not have a male organ , talk less of the associated seed that goes with it.

There is no way on earth an angel can procreate with a human, contradicting both creation and biology. Total impossibility.

Can materialized angels procreate with humans on earth?

Before we go further, can Frosbel give an explanation to the scriptures Fresky backed his explanation up with.

Freksy:

Did I call them human beings in my comment? I said they "materialized fleshly bodies"; is there anything wrong with that?

But the bible does not say angels changed into humans and mated with Women, it simply says the Sons of GOD which imho is a reference to those godly men who loved God but had slidden back because of rampant wickedness and immorality.

An example of this today , is the situation where many Sons of GOD who were once saved are sleeping around with women , especially those who are not of the faith.

"Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. " - Matthew 24:12

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." - Revelation 2:20

It beats me why you repeat the bolded. You want to subtly give the impression that's what you refuted?

Not intentional, forgive me Bro.

Can materialized angels procreate with humans on earth?

No.

My life is about the power of God. The power of his spirit and the life in his word. Why do i know the feelings of emptiness in our discussions? Has the church abandoned the power that gives it life? Have we lost our taste and become ordinary to the world. No. Revival is coming. It is upon us. Let us walk in the reality of Gods word, in the power of his spirit in his mighty name.

frosbel:


But the bible does not say angels changed into humans and mated with Women, it simply says the Sons of GOD which imho is a reference to those godly men who loved God but had slidden back because of rampant wickedness and immorality.

An example of this today , is the situation where many Sons of GOD who were once saved are sleeping around with women , especially those who are not of the faith.

"Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. " - Matthew 24:12

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." - Revelation 2:20

(2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. -Genesis 6:2 (KJV)

"(2) some of the heavenly beings saw that these young women were beautiful, so they took the ones they liked". -Genesis 6:2 (GNT)

Not intentional, forgive me Bro.

Ah, there was no problem bros.

No.

"(4) In those days, and even later, there were giants on the earth who were descendants of human women and the heavenly beings. They were the great heroes and famous men of long ago. (5) When the LORD saw how wicked everyone on earth was and how evil their thoughts were all the time, (6) he was sorry that he had ever made them and put them on the earth. He was so filled with regret (7) that he said, “I will wipe out these people I have created, and also the animals and the birds, because I am sorry that I made any of them.” ( But the LORD was pleased with Noah". -Genesis 6:4-8 (GNT)

Please marry the above with the following and see if they agree or not:


"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" - Jude 6

"(4) For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment; (5) and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world;" -2 Peter 2:4-5 Catholic Bible (NABRE)

frosbel: Blood crying ? No wonder you religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead you lead multitudes into the same error wherein you are trapped.

Yes oh, blood cried. that is what the bible said and i gave you three places where the Bible said it. You deliberately cut it out of my post to make your point to the gullible. here they are again.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
God said blood was speaking(crying), you want me to reason it away as untrue. The supernatural cannot be reasoned away. the virgin birth cannot be reasoned away, neither can many of the miracles like feeding five thousand with five loaves or walking on water, or resurrection, or parting the River Jordan. If all you can make of this is give us the atheist line of rant that believers are just religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead leading multitudes into the same error wherein they are trapped. It shows the spirit driving you. You cannot hide smoke. i ask again, what are these things symbolic of?

1. The whole book of revelation just like Daniel is prophetic and symbolic , and provides a look into future events as planned by Almighty GOD.

2. By deduction from point 1, there were no souls under the altar at the time of John seeing and recording these events.

3. These souls are under the altar for how long ? A millennia ? Does it sound logical to you that millions of souls will be under an altar, almost imprisoned till the time of reckoning. You call this being in heaven, lol.

Read revelation prayerfully and carefully, have a pen and pad handy, no rush, dedicate at least a month, stop this wishy washy , religious, shallow and almost brainwashed approach to bible study.

1. That it is symbolic is not in question. i never objected that fact or even raised it. That it is symbolic does not mean that one cannot read and comprehend.
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
What is the above verse symbolic of? Do we need some spirit to interpret this simple grammar to us?

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What is this symbolic of? Is this not plain enough english that any body should understand? All these trying to hold us to ransom by private interpretation would not work. Some people tried it in the past by making all scriptures latin. Now you are here waving symbolic in our faces like we should all go and sleep since it is symbolic. Sorry, we also have the Spirit of God.

2. Again, you introduce another fallacy. There is no argument as to whether there were no souls under the altar at the time of John seeing and recording these events or there are. The point given is that after some folks died, the Bible records that their souls were under the altar in heaven, and that they were not zombie souls. They were communicating and being communicated with. They were even given robes according to the text.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
You said that once humans die, that is the end, until when they are resurrected. But i have shown from scriptures, instances that negate your assertions. Deal with that, or rather, believe that.

3. You want to know how long, whether it is a millenia, or whether it is logical? Tell me how logical it is to walk on water, or to resurrect from the dead, or to be born of a virgin, or to rub spittle in a blind man's eyes and he sees. the point again was about souls being alive after physical death, not about how long they are alive after physical death. i have shown you what the Bible has to say about this. It is left for you to believe the Bible or your logical articles.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
He does not say that God will be a God of the living. that will be the case if Abraham and other saints are not yet alive. God is NOT a God of the dead, He is a God of the living.

Image123:
Yes oh, blood cried. that is what the bible said and i gave you three places where the Bible said it. You deliberately cut it out of my post to make your point to the gullible. here they are again.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
God said blood was speaking(crying), you want me to reason it away as untrue. The supernatural cannot be reasoned away. the virgin birth cannot be reasoned away, neither can many of the miracles like feeding five thousand with five loaves or walking on water, or resurrection, or parting the River Jordan. If all you can make of this is give us the atheist line of rant that believers are just religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead leading multitudes into the same error wherein they are trapped. It shows the spirit driving you. You cannot hide smoke. i ask again, what are these things symbolic of?


1. That it is symbolic is not in question. i never objected that fact or even raised it. That it is symbolic does not mean that one cannot read and comprehend.
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
What is the above verse symbolic of? Do we need some spirit to interpret this simple grammar to us?

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What is this symbolic of? Is this not plain enough english that any body should understand? All these trying to hold us to ransom by private interpretation would not work. Some people tried it in the past by making all scriptures latin. Now you are here waving symbolic in our faces like we should all go and sleep since it is symbolic. Sorry, we also have the Spirit of God.

2. Again, you introduce another fallacy. There is no argument as to whether there were no souls under the altar at the time of John seeing and recording these events or there are. The point given is that after some folks died, the Bible records that their souls were under the altar in heaven, and that they were not zombie souls. They were communicating and being communicated with. They were even given robes according to the text.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
You said that once humans die, that is the end, until when they are resurrected. But i have shown from scriptures, instances that negate your assertions. Deal with that, or rather, believe that.

3. You want to know how long, whether it is a millenia, or whether it is logical? Tell me how logical it is to walk on water, or to resurrect from the dead, or to be born of a virgin, or to rub spittle in a blind man's eyes and he sees. the point again was about souls being alive after physical death, not about how long they are alive after physical death. i have shown you what the Bible has to say about this. It is left for you to believe the Bible or your logical articles.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
He does not say that God will be a God of the living. that will be the case if Abraham and other saints are not yet alive. God is NOT a God of the dead, He is a God of the living.

Image123 i'm so impressed with ur presentations, may God bless u and deliver the gullible from the guy Frosbel whom the devil is using zealously to deceive many.

As u asked earlier are the virgin birth of christ, his walking on water, his miracles, death and resurection symbolic? The Bible says that a carnal man (or an atheist) cannot receive\accept the thing of the spirit 'cos the are foolishness to him. No matter the volume of biblical evidence u present before him, he will not accept cos they dnt make sense to him.

You dont need waste ur time with him, he's an atheist parading himself a xtain on nairaland.

true2god: Image123 i'm so impressed with ur presentations, may God bless u and deliver the gullible from the guy Frosbel whom the devil is using zealously to deceive many.

As u asked earlier are the virgin birth of christ, his walking on water, his miracles, death and resurection symbolic? The Bible says that a carnal man (or an atheist) cannot receive\accept the thing of the spirit 'cos the are foolishness to him. No matter the volume of biblical evidence u present before him, he will not accept cos they dnt make sense to him.

You dont need waste ur time with him, he's an atheist parading himself a xtain on nairaland.

I don't think he is an atheist yet,but he will soon be.He is on a steady decline towards that path.

true2god: Image123 i'm so impressed with ur presentations, may God bless u and deliver the gullible from the guy Frosbel whom the devil is using zealously to deceive many.

As u asked earlier are the virgin birth of christ, his walking on water, his miracles, death and resurection symbolic? The Bible says that a carnal man (or an atheist) cannot receive\accept the thing of the spirit 'cos the are foolishness to him. No matter the volume of biblical evidence u present before him, he will not accept cos they dnt make sense to him.

You dont need waste ur time with him, he's an atheist parading himself a xtain on nairaland.

there is 2 ways or more ways one can understand something... so he is just trying to present his point of view... not everything he is saying here is wrong.

benalvino:

there is 2 ways or more ways one can understand something... so he is just trying to present his point of view... not everything he is saying here is wrong.

Yes i understand, but u need not force falsehood into pple's throat with blind argument. The Bible is clear enough on the state of the dead.

Jesus, whom we claim to follow his teachings, NEVER teaches that death is the end of a man but a transit route to the afterlife. If frosbel, or any other person(s) teaches\believes otherwise, i will rather believ what Jesus teaches than Frosbel. If the Bible teaches the pre-existince of Jesus (and Jesus also held this view) and Frosbel says 'no', i will rather believe Jesus than Frosbel.

It is a knwn fact Frosbel is not stable with his biblical beliefs, then y must i trust\believ wat he wrote.
www.nairaland.com/767334/why-hell-integral-gospel

[quote author=Image123]
Yes oh, blood cried. that is what the bible said and i gave you three places where the Bible said it. You deliberately cut it out of my post to make your point to the gullible. here they are again.

Stop getting emotional and accusatory, I did not deliberately cut it out of your post.

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
God said blood was speaking(crying), you want me to reason it away as untrue.

Blood crying is a symbolic language used to depict the testimony of a thing , in the case of Abel his innocence , in the case of Jesus the atonement and remission of sins.

Surely you do not think that blood cries in the literal sense of the word.

SMH .

The supernatural cannot be reasoned away. the virgin birth cannot be reasoned away, neither can many of the miracles like feeding five thousand with five loaves or walking on water, or resurrection, or parting the River Jordan. If all you can make of this is give us the atheist line of rant that believers are just religious people cannot think and reason out the truth, instead leading multitudes into the same error wherein they are trapped. It shows the spirit driving you. You cannot hide smoke. i ask again, what are these things symbolic of?

We are not Muslims or Catholics who discourage questions and curiosity. If Truth is Truth it must stand the test of scrutiny.

God is 100% Light and can neither partake of a LIE nor be part of it, so do not berate me for testing all things as commanded in the bible.

You really come across as a programmed robot who believes anything and everything without factual evidence and testing all things.

The day we stop asking questions is the day we move into utter darkness.

1. That it is symbolic is not in question. i never objected that fact or even raised it. That it is symbolic does not mean that one cannot read and comprehend.
Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
What is the above verse symbolic of? Do we need some spirit to interpret this simple grammar to us?

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
What is this symbolic of? Is this not plain enough english that any body should understand? All these trying to hold us to ransom by private interpretation would not work. Some people tried it in the past by making all scriptures latin. Now you are here waving symbolic in our faces like we should all go and sleep since it is symbolic. Sorry, we also have the Spirit of God.

John saw a future revelation, and he used very symbolic language just like Jesus used parables to describe future events.

You have to start studying and stop insinuating.

^^

Let me sure I understand what you're saying. Rev. 6:10 is about a future event that has not occurred as of today. And you believe this will occur when? If your answer is before Jesus comes, that means you believe that dead people go to Heaven before judgment, which contradicts your earlier assertions. If your answer is when Jesus comes back and dead saints are resurrected, that suggests that resurrected SINNERS would not be judged immediately upon resurrection. They would have to be here on EARTH for that verse to apply to them. Is that what you are saying: that there is no immediate judgment for sinners when Jesus appears but that they would be on earth for some time and then the killed saints in Rev. 6:10 would cry to God for vengeance?

Secondly, when the killed saints in Rev. 6:10 cried out, they were told to wait till their fellow saints are reunited with them. So, in light of that, are you also saying that when Jesus appears not ALL the saints would be resurrected at the same time? That is, some martyrs would be resurrected first, followed by sinners, while other martyrs and the rest of the saints are still in the grave. Then the first set of martyrs cry and God tells them to wait till the other martyrs and saints resurrect and join them?

On the other hand, if ALL the saints are resurrected at the same time, what would be the point in God telling the crying saints to wait till their brethren join them? That takes us back to the point that that chapter may have been speaking of life before Jesus comes.

These questions need to be cleared for your position to make sense. The alternative interpretation that these saints are already in Heaven and are seeking vengeance over their killers and other wicked people now on earth and are being told to wait for their brethren who are still alive does not suffer from these problems.

That scripture is figurative Sir,it doesn't mean any soul is crying literally.
That is what he is trying to say.


@ Frosbel, I don't think that sons of God explanation is accurate.

I don't think the issue is about literal crying. That is largely irrelevant. Even here on earth, we use crying in a figurative sense, saying people cried for help even when no tears were shed. The issue here is: are the souls there right now in Heaven or not? His argument is that nobody goes to Heaven until Jesus returns. But that does not align with that Scripture. Because of the lingering questions that I posed.

frosbel: Lots of people believe that everybody has a soul inside them. And that when you die, your soul lives on, and goes somewhere else, perhaps to heaven. But that’s not what the Bible teaches.

There is no mention of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible. You won’t find those two words together anywhere.

No-one has gone to heaven. John 3v13 says:“No one has ascended into heaven except... the Son of Man.”

Even David, a man after God’s own heart, has not gone to heaven, but is still in his grave:

“For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2v34)

So what are souls, and where do they go?


The Meaning
Let’s look a bit more closely at what it means in four places which mention souls.

“The soul who sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18v4).

So souls are able to die. They cannot be immortal then. In fact, in the letter to Timothy, Paul says that only God is immortal. It’s a very simple verse really – if you sin, you die in the end. That is the message of the Bible, that sin leads to death, and we’ll be coming back to that later.

"And they struck with the sword all who were in it, devoting them to destruction; there was none left that breathed. And he burned Hazor with fire.” (Joshua 11v11).

If you have a different version from the ESV, such as the King James version, you might see the word souls there instead of “all who were in it”. In fact the later versions have corrected this. The soul is the life of something: a mortal creature. You can see that here where it’s describing a big battle. Because soul is the mortal life of a person, it can die. So this verse again shows souls in danger of death, and dying. Soul in the Bible means a mortal creature.

In Psalm 49v15, the soul goes to the grave and dies:

"But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol” [literally translated, this means the grave].

Only God can resurrect it to life again, by recreating the body from the corruption of the grave. So this is where souls are heading.

In the whole of the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (Nephesh) occurs 754 times:

In 326 places it’s said to be subject to death
In 203 places it’s in danger of death
In 16 places it’s delivered from death
In 119 places it’s simply translated “life” – that which has life. Even the animals in Genesis 1v20 have souls.

So the first souls mentioned in the Bible aren’t even people! Animals as well as men are called living souls.
So we can see in the Old Testament that there is no hint that the soul is immortal. But let’s look at the New Testament too:

“And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.' But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?'”
(Luke 12v19-20)

This is part of the parable of the rich fool, and it shows him talking to his soul. But of course, he’s really just talking to himself! And we can understand verse 20 as simply indicating that night he will die, and he’s foolish because there’s nothing left to enjoy his bigger barns. The soul is gone; therefore soul here is another word for life.

These things don’t make sense if we think it means something immortal.

So we get a similar thing in the New Testament

The Greek word “psuche” occurs 116 times in the NT.

In 45 places it is subject to death
In 29 places it is in danger of death
In 16 places it is delivered from death
We can see the overwhelming evidence once again that the New Testement does not teach about an immortal soul.

Summary
Soul means a living creature. It can be born and it can die. There is no Bible verse which talks about an immortal soul.

The message of the Bible is that people’s lives are very important, and what you do with your life now matters, while you still have it. Because you only get one chance. Life is vulnerable: you don’t know when it will be taken away from you. That’s what we saw in Luke 12 with the man who thought he had years left to live! The message is that when that one chance has gone, you are judged and then either rewarded or punished for your life. We also saw that if you sin (as we all do), you die. Your soul goes to the grave and dies. This helps us to think about the amazing thing Jesus did when he voluntarily gave up his life, despite having not sinned. But our future hope is not for the soul to live on, it is for bodily resurrection, just as Jesus rose from the dead.

http://www.derbychristadelphians.org.uk/the_soul.htm

this is a very bias and wrong teaching... when someone dies... the soul departs from the body. this article of post by frosbel is to put confusion in people... i was trying to figure out what this thread is all about and i decide to start from scratch and realize what frosbel is trying to explain.

firstly

John 3v13 says:“No one has ascended into heaven except... the Son of Man.”

this verse i quote from you shows how you move around with contradictory doctrine trying to confuse people... and this link below from your own post shows that you say rubbish all the time.
https://www.nairaland.com/1321883/did-jesus-preexist-birth-honeychild

frosbel:
I am opening this thread so that over the next few days or even weeks , we can discuss this topic in great detail and come to a conclusion as to what the bible really says on this issue.

My position is that Jesus did not preexist , instead he was born as a MAN having fulfilled all the prophecies concering him regarding his birth.

I am little busy now, so carry on and I will join you later on.

Please let us not behave like the pro-trinitarians on this board who resort to abuse and insults , let us leave it civil.

now you are posting that no one has Gone to heaven except he that came down... as far as your post goes... you don't believe Jesus came down from heaven

“For David did not ascend into the heavens” (Acts 2v34)

^^ this is crap... you are saying this because you think our skin is our soul... nope you dont know what soul is. david did not ascend to heaven in the manner of Jesus... it means bodily... his soul when to God his body was departed from the soul... that is what happens when someone dies...

I would like to help you understand this. it may be long i think it should be in new thread so everyone can see the root of your argument and mine because not everyone will go through all the post already to understand whats going on.

I thought I had logged out of posting on nairaland 4 good until I saw this.
I realize that frosbel is just making mockery of himself. Pls if ur theory is right, wht do u make of Jesus' parable of d rich man & Lazarus?
If u say it is just a parable do u thn mean it was based on lies?
If it was true, then rephrase trash ur post

Bobbysworld28: I thought I had logged out of posting on nairaland 4 good until I saw this.
I realize that frosbel is just making mockery of himself. Pls if ur theory is right, wht do u make of Jesus' parable of d rich man & Lazarus?
If u say it is just a parable do u thn mean it was based on lies?
If it was true, then rephrase trash ur post

I just realize he doesnt know what to believe... he is so confused. before he says jesus didnot exist before his birth... not he is using a contradictory verse to that his view to back up his argument here... even when it is so obvious he doesnt know what he is saying.

Brothers and Sisters let us pray for Christs guidance in this heavenly race,believe me man on his own can never i repeat never save his soul..but christ has paid the price just pray and let him be the ruler over ur soul let him transform ur heart and renew it to his taste i tell u there are enough false prophets but if u have Christ in u,u need not worry he'll see u through he is the only one that can save man -John 3v16-18,Acts 4v12..do not accept any doctrine that contradicts the BIBLE teaching call on Jesus to direct ur steps thank u.

benalvino:

this is a very bias and wrong teaching... when someone dies... the soul departs from the body. this article of post by frosbel is to put confusion in people... i was trying to figure out what this thread is all about and i decide to start from scratch and realize what frosbel is trying to explain.

Sorry friend, you are simply repeating pagan myths that infiltrated the church through the Greek so called 'church' fathers who were well tutored in the philosophy of Plato. See this link http://thestructures./2012/07/24/platos-body-soul also repeated in the post below for your perusal.

You keep missing the simple point that MAN is a SOUL consisting of a spirit ( God breathed life ) and Body ( dust ).

The combination of these two ingredients is what makes MAN a living SOUL.

"God formed Man out of dirt from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. The Man came alive—a living soul!" - Genesis 2:7

We see this position reinforced in the curse of death placed on MAN when GOD said :


"till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3;19.

Here GOD refers to the WHOLE Man as dust, and says that MAN will return to the dust a concept called DEATH or cessation of existence.

Indeed when God takes his breath away from the living souls , we all die and return to the ground from whence we came.

"When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath they die and return to the dust." - Psalm 104:29


I could go on and on but seeing you are hard of hearing and refuse to believe the bible, instead you esteem the words of your preachers, pastors and 'gods' more than the very words of GOD.

now you are posting that no one has Gone to heaven except he that came down... as far as your post goes... you don't believe Jesus came down from heaven

Jesus was the Son of GOD sent by the Father through his Spirit to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and to redeem mankind back to the original plan and purpose of GOD , through his atonement, death , burial and resurrection.

So Jesus is correct in saying that he came from Heaven, in other words his source was Heaven.

^^ this is crap... you are saying this because you think our skin is our soul... nope you dont know what soul is. david did not ascend to heaven in the manner of Jesus... it means bodily... his soul when to God his body was departed from the soul... that is what happens when someone dies..

You are preaching heresy, the resurrection is the ONLY hope for the whole MAN 100% and not 50% of MAN, even the disciples are dead and buried waiting for the resurrection - John 14:3

I would like to help you understand this. it may be long i think it should be in new thread so everyone can see the root of your argument and mine because not everyone will go through all the post already to understand whats going on.

You need to stop following MEN and their dead traditions, it's time you start reading the bible like a Berean and quit rehashing false PAGAN ideas.

Source of the Dual nature of MAN

There can be no doubt that Plato; a firm dualist, committed himself to the idea that there existed a soul separate from the physical body within all men. Aside from the Republic, Plato asserted such a belief in many of his works, and the concept of the self remains a rigorously discussed topic throughout his Dialogues. That man does possess a soul is accepted by Plato without question.

For Plato, man consists of two completely separate and opposing entities; body and soul. Within Plato’s Alcibiades, Socrates is shown to be leading an enquiry into the true nature of the self.

http://thestructures./2012/07/24/platos-body-soul/

Guys, I hope you can see the source of your PAGAN philosophies.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ." - Colossians 2:8

Frosbel, whenever u disagree with a concept u look for a philosopher & hang it on him.
Now let us base it on Jesus' words. If there was no life after death would dt parable of the rich man and Lazarus hv come from the master?
If ur notion is correct, is Jesus then a liar?
Evn if u claim it was a parable & nt a true event, do u mean Jesus used a lie to prove a point?

Bobbysworld28: Frosbel, whenever u disagree with a concept u look for a philosopher & hang it on him.
Now let us base it on Jesus' words. If there was no life after death would dt parable of the rich man and Lazarus hv come from the master?
If ur notion is correct, is Jesus then a liar?
Evn if u claim it was a parable & nt a true event, do u mean Jesus used a lie to prove a point?

It is not only poor bible scholarship , it is also disingenuous to base some of the most key bible doctrines on 1 parable , which is what it is , a Parable.

I also have a question for you which is raised in this new article ( https://www.nairaland.com/1367041/abrahams-bosom-different-eras-dead#16931919 ) , where did the dead who died before Abraham go to , since Abraham's bosom did not exist at that time. This will include the multitudes who existed from Adam to Noah to Terah the father of Abraham.

frosbel:

Sorry friend, you are simply repeating pagan myths that infiltrated the church through the Greek so called 'church' fathers who were well tutored in the philosophy of Plato. See this link http://thestructures./2012/07/24/platos-body-soul also repeated in the post below for your perusal.

You keep missing the simple point that MAN is a SOUL consisting of a spirit ( God breathed life ) and Body ( dust ).

The combination of these two ingredients is what makes MAN a living SOUL.

"God formed Man out of dirt from the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life. The Man came alive—a living soul!" - Genesis 2:7

We see this position reinforced in the curse of death placed on MAN when GOD said :


"till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3;19.

Here GOD refers to the WHOLE Man as dust, and says that MAN will return to the dust a concept called DEATH or cessation of existence.

Indeed when God takes his breath away from the living souls , we all die and return to the ground from whence we came.

"When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath they die and return to the dust." - Psalm 104:29


I could go on and on but seeing you are hard of hearing and refuse to believe the bible, instead you esteem the words of your preachers, pastors and 'gods' more than the very words of GOD.



Jesus was the Son of GOD sent by the Father through his Spirit to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and to redeem mankind back to the original plan and purpose of GOD , through his atonement, death , burial and resurrection.

So Jesus is correct in saying that he came from Heaven, in other words his source was Heaven.



You are preaching heresy, the resurrection is the ONLY hope for the whole MAN 100% and not 50% of MAN, even the disciples are dead and buried waiting for the resurrection - John 14:3



You need to stop following MEN and their dead traditions, it's time you start reading the bible like a Berean and quit rehashing false PAGAN ideas.

again my beliefs are not from the site you posted above... you kinda lust here... i will show you from the bible and define how soul and spirit are use interchangeably you have no clue of what you are saying here.

benalvino:

again my beliefs are not from the site you posted above... you kinda lust here... i will show you from the bible and define how soul and spirit are use interchangeably you have no clue of what you are saying here.

Start from the beginning Gen 2:7 or stop wasting my time with your PAGAN beliefs.

frosbel:

Start from the beginning Gen 2:7 or stop wasting my tine with your PAGAN beliefs.

ok sir.

in responds to frosbel original post and all that concern this thread...

Firstly the soul body and spirit and separate in some sense... so lets look at some passage then finally land on what the soul is.
we are made up of physical substance(matter) which is our body and non physical substance or material which is soul and spirit
1 thess 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

the soul and the spirit can be divided

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


soul and spirit are different in some ways but are used interchangeably
Lk 1:46-47
My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,


What is death?
physical and spiritual death...
physical - separation of body and soul - (Eccl 12;7; Gen 25:17; Jas 2;26 )

spiritual death - (Gen 2:17; Isa 59:1-2; Lk 15:24; Mt 8:22; Eph 2:1,5;1 Ti 5:6)

From what i understand frosbel is saying the soul is our physical body... but is that what the bible teaches?
can a dead body of a man be called a soul?

matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
this verse clearly shows the distinction between soul and body. men can kill your body but not your soul... Only God can destroy the soul Because he is the source of life.

@frosbel,
Answer my question. If it is a parable, did Jesus lie, thereby breaking scripture?
I cannot claim to knw where those who died b4 Abraham went. Ok?
Now answer my question please.

frosbel has stated that the soul doenst leave the body... in fact the soul and the body is same. he hold that at death the soul does not leave the body; both soul(body) sleep until the Day of Christ’s return. secondly he says or may be implying that the soul cease to exist when someone dies; or it is aware of nothing. What is the basis for these two premises? They base his argument primarily on passages that speak of death and passages that speak of bodies awakening on the Last Day.

sleep is a word used in the bible to describe death... it occurs more than 50 times in the old testament and 18 times in the new testament.. but die is the most common word for death though.

For example Jesus tells his disciples that Lazarus had fallen asleep (John 11:11,14). Stephen’s death is described as falling asleep (Acts 7:59). Paul describes Christians who had died in Thessalonica as “asleep” (1 Th 4:13). In the Old Testament, we are told that David “slept with his fathers” (1 Kings 2:10), a phrase that is used to describe the death of many kings.

But the soul sleep argument depends on all of these passages being taken literally. But is that really the case? Is it not possible, or even probable, that the “death as sleep” passages are intended to be understood in a figurative sense? Someone who has died looks like he is sleeping, which is why people of many cultures have described death in this way. Even if the soul and body are sleeping in some real sense, who can be sure that it is a sleep exactly like the sleep of the living, that is, a totally unconscious sleep? Who can be sure what the sleep of the dead is exactly like?

To stress the unconsciousness of soul sleep, the soul sleep proponents refer to such Old Testament passages as Psalm 6:5, which says, “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks” (KJV)? They also cite Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest” (KJV).

These passages support the argument of soul sleep, however, only if they are referring to the soul as well as the body. It is probable, however, that the verses are speaking of the fate of the body only. In discussing the meaning of the Hebrew word sheol, which occurs in both Psalm 6:5 and Eccl 9,

If these passages were the only ones in the Bible that speak to the question of where the soul goes after death but before the Resurrection, according to frosbel he would strongly argue for soul sleep(death). Because there are other clearer passages that contradict him, and New Testament passages at that, they are hardly determinative.

As stated above the first premise of the soul sleep argument is that at the body is the soul and it dies as the body is dead. This is flatly contradicted, however by many places in the New Testament.

According to Scripture, the soul leaves the body at death. The Gospels tell us that at the moment of his death, Jesus prayed, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” and then “he yielded up his spirit” (Luke 23:46; Mt 27:50). This text makes clear that Jesus’ soul did not remain in his dead body, but went into his Father’s hands. The first Christian martyr (after Jesus) was Stephen. Acts 7:59-60 describes his death: “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” Ecclesiastes 12:7 describes death in these terms: “and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Notice, that according to this definition, the body has one destination and the spirit/soul has another.

There is additional evidence that the soul leaves the body at death. Several of the resurrection stories in the Bible describe the soul as returning to the body. This implies, of course, that the soul had left in the first place. First, there is the example of Elijah raising the widow’s son from the dead. “And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived” (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child’s soul “came into him again.” A second example is Jesus’ raising of Jairus’s twelve year old daughter from the dead. “And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise." 55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once (Luke 8:53-55). As in the example, this text also speaks of the soul of a dead person “returning” into the body.

What happened in these resurrections is exactly what our Lutheran Church teaches will happen at the final resurrection: the souls of those who have died will return to their bodies which will be raised to stand before Christ on Judgment Day.

Next, holy Scripture also contradicts soul sleep by showing that the souls of both unbelievers and believers go to a place after death but before Judgment Day.

For unbelievers it is a place of punishment. In 2 Peter 2, Peter writes, “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment . . . then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment” (2 Pet 2:4,9).

Here also belongs the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-20. Because some insist that this account is a parable (I do not) it can’t be used as the first line of evidence. But it does powerfully illustrate what 2 Peter 2 stated above. I’ll let the account speak for itself:

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house- 28 for I have five brothers- so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"


Notice that God’s Word says that the rich man “was buried” – his body was laid in a grave of some kind. Nonetheless, there he is in Hades suffering torment in the flames. That this account depicts a suffering in Hades before the final Judgment is shown when the rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers who are still alive. This story gives a specific example of what 2 Peter 2 taught us. The souls of unbelievers are sent to a place of torment and punishment to be kept until the Day of Judgment.

The Bible also teaches that the souls of believers go to another place after death. They go to be with the Lord in Paradise.

The Apostle Paul speaks of this joyous event in his second letter to the Corinthians. “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Co 5:6-8; NIV). Paul pointedly states that he and his companions would rather be “away from the body and at home with the Lord.” This “away from the body” can’t mean Paul’s being in heaven after Judgment Day. For after Judgment Day all Christians will not be away from their bodies, but will have resurrected bodies. What can being “away from the body and at home with the Lord” mean but that when a Christian dies their soul leaves their body and goes to a new home with the Lord himself? Thus, this passage is a conclusive argument against soul sleep.

In his letter to the Philippians Paul sounds a similar chord. He tells the Christians at Philippi that he is torn between living and dying: “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account” (Philippians 1:23-24). Note Paul’s definition of death: “to depart and be with Christ,” which is “far better” than living his life on earth. Paul is obviously describing an imminent “being with Christ.”

Now Paul certainly knows how to talk about being with the Lord after the resurrection on the Last Day, and does so often. In passages where he does so, however, the context explains that he is talking about eternal life after the resurrection. For example, in 2 Timothy 4:7-8, the Apostle writes, “ I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day.” The “Day” to which Paul refers is the day of Christ’s coming on the last day. But in Philippians 1, Paul is describing “departing and being with Christ” before the resurrection, for there is no mention of the Last Day or the final resurrection in the immediate context.

In addition to these direct statements that show that the souls of believers go to be with the Lord in a “far better” place, there are several key examples that teach the same thing.

The classic example is the criminal who was crucified next to Jesus. When he asked the Lord, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom,” Jesus replied, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Now Jesus’ body could not have been in Paradise later that day, for it was taken down from the cross and buried until the third day. His soul, however, as mentioned above, could and did go to Paradise, into the Father’s hands. The same, then, must be true for the criminal. He died (John 19:32 tells us that his legs were broken, which would have dramatically hastened his death), his body taken from the cross. But his soul went to Paradise, as did the soul of Jesus.

some people try a trick because this verse bite them like calabar dog... the interpretation of Luke 23:43 is well known. Since they steadfastly believe in soul dies or as frosbel the soul is the body, they get around this clear passage by claiming that the punctuation in Bible translations is wrong. Instead of the passage reading, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with in Paradise,” they hold that it should read, “Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise” (not today but on the Last Day). It is true that the Koine Greek (the language in which the New Testament was originally written, and that which the Holy Spirit inspired) contained no punctuation. However, who cannot see that the interpretation is extremely forced? Why would Jesus have said, “Truly I say to today . . .”? Instead of what? “Truly I say to you yesterday . . .” or “Truly I say to you tomorrow . . .”? Nowhere else does Jesus speak this way. More to the point, in every place where Jesus says, “Truly, I say to you,” the main clause begins immediately after the “you.” It is clear that the natural meaning of Luke 23:43 is that the soul of the criminal went to be with Jesus in Paradise the very day that he died.

Another important example is the appearance of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. The Word of God specifically states that Moses died and was buried by God in a valley in Moab opposite Beth Peor (Deut 34:5-6). Yet, when Jesus was transfigured almost 1500 years later, Moses appeared “in glory” and was talking to Jesus. This is described in Luke 9:29-31: “And as he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became dazzling white. 30 And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.” Moses did die, however, and his body was buried. Yet he stands there in some form, talking to Jesus, long before the resurrection on the Last Day. Either Moses’ body was raised early (of which we have no mention in Scripture – Jude 1:9 is not conclusive) or his soul appeared in visible form on the Mount of Transfiguration.

A third example is the story of the rich man and Lazarus referred to earlier. When he died, and before the final resurrection, Lazarus was immediately “carried by the angels to Abraham's side” (Lk 16:22). “Abraham’s side” was another name for heaven at the time. Of Lazarus, Abraham says, “He is being comforted here,” which describes this intermediate place as a place of comfort.

A fourth example is found in Revelation 6. There John sees a vision of the souls of martyred Christians under the altar in heaven. “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been” (Rev 6:9-11). If this vision is to be understood literally, it is a clear example of the souls of Christians in heaven before the final Judgment. However the overall symbolic nature of Revelation casts some doubt on whether the vision of the fifth seal is to be taken literally, and for this reason I have listed this example last.

^^^^


2 prerequisites before I respond :

1. As a matter of honesty , can you quote your sources for the article above.

2. Tell me what you understand by Genesis 2:7 in reference to the creation of MAN.


Thanks,

^^

I noticed you've been answering questions posed after mine and eager to answer new ones, but have not responded to mine. Maybe my questions were no so clear or a bit more difficult?

frosbel: ^^^^
2 prerequisites before I respond :

1. As a matter of honesty , can you quote your sources for the article above.

2. Tell me what you understand by Genesis 2:7 in reference to the creation of MAN.
Thanks,

what do you understand by Genesis 35:18 in reference to a dying person?