Drummaboy

I had to cut short my self imposed ban from nairaland to applaud your treatise up there.If only christians will put in their thinking caps.becoming believers does not equate to handing our brains over to super men in the mold of MOG.

When churches fall over themselves to compete with the secular world, i have to agree a strange spirit has taken over.

Coincidentally, i have a discussion tommorow with an area pastor of the RCCG whom my sweet mum and younger sister reported my anti tithe stance to.i really want to hear what new revelation he has on this issue.

Thumbs up once again bro.

God bless u plenty

Goshen360: You are a good man. I have promised on the other thread to discuss the issue scripturally. I will do that before dawn, here and on the other thread.

Mr Goshen360 when will you have time to contribute? You are begining to lie like those you are acquising.
May God help you. I am waiting for your sculpturally made analysis...not scripturally because i know, no analysis you will bring other than the one that you made and attached some unmeasurable quotes

Goshen360: @ Thread,

This is really a serious issue and it should bother us Christian. I cannot meet up with my contribution as I promised before dawn. I will definitely find time today to contribute. The main reason why this issue should be discussed was when I read Pst Adeboye saying they want to build church in every 5 minutes walk. I have once been a member of RCCG in my school days at OFFA and this is not the first time he's saying that. Well, we know no matter what we say might not count but we will still say the truth anyway. I will be back.

How can you extablish that you are christian? Christianity is not about the belief in the religion or going to church. Its people who are christ-like: they have the characteristics of christ. Today is gone and you are yet to contribute is that your second day lie? Before you misquote Adeboye, you should ask yourself how many poor have you helped in nigeria or even on the street of NY?

Anyways, i am giving you the opportunity to reflect on this and come take some biblical lectures from me, so you can be confident that you are dealing with issues scripturally.. My good friend--lol

@Drummaboy , took some time, , but I read the entire thing

Well said and perfectly broken down.

The bottom line is this, our duty as MEN and WOMEN is to worship GOD and fear him, he will lead us to meet with fellow like minded believers , whose only motive is LOVE and sacrifice.

Well said !

Well, after the completion of the new 3km auditorium and there are still people standing in the open. We will ask for 1 trillion per person donation (they should see my personal sectary) so that will build a new 15km or 55km auditorium. Is it not better to make heaven by contributing your money(legal/illegally earned) to the work of God rather spend it on this vain and transcient world. I'm shocked that people expect me to rather ask massive donation for poverty alleviation,affordable education,shelter,medical assistance like i'm there president or government. There is nothing as important as my new 3km auditorium where the whole country will come before meee. I urge u to contribute or go to hell

Candour: Drummaboy

I had to cut short my self imposed ban from nairaland to applaud your treatise up there.If only christians will put in their thinking caps.becoming believers does not equate to handing our brains over to super men in the mold of MOG.

When churches fall over themselves to compete with the secular world, i have to agree a strange spirit has taken over.

Coincidentally, i have a discussion tommorow with an area pastor of the RCCG whom my sweet mum and younger sister reported my anti tithe stance to.i really want to hear what new revelation he has on this issue.

Thumbs up once again bro.

God bless u plenty

Please remember to come back and give us details of this new revelation

Hmmmmm...

frosbel: Can Adeboye ensure that there is not ONE needy person among his church members before he embarks on this multi-billion naira project to build a 3-km Long Church Auditorium.

It is indeed great to care for the needy because when we take care of the less privileged, we necessarily extend same to the object of our love, who happens to be Christ Jesus.

However, I do not believe that it is necessary to take care of every needy person before we can build a befitting place of worship for God. I am very sure that there were still beggars in Israel when God requested that a place of worship be built for him at the time of Solomon.

Even Christ made us understand that, though it is a MUST to take care of the needy but it is not ONLY about them. There are other matters we can spend our resources on too.


Matthew 26:7-11
New International Version (NIV)

7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.

8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”

10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.

Yea, we might say the above is quite different but the point remains: we can spend our resources for matters other than given to the poor as long as we still perform our obligation of being there for the needy.

frosbel:
This is madness, building more and more edifices while our people are almost dying of hunger, a classical case of taking money from the needy and using it to build babels to the glory of MAN. Reminds me of India who are investing in more weapons of mass destruction when 60% of their people starve, talk of misplaced priorities.

I quite agree with your stance here but still it is not against the tenets of sacred scriptures for the needy to contribute their quota for the upkeep and development of the Church and its ministers. Two 'case studies' quickly comes to mind:

1) The ish between Elijah and the widow at Zeraphat. (1 Kings 17:7-16)

2) Jesus and the ish with the 'widow's mite'. (Mark 12:41-44).

In both stories, the ladies were extremely poor but this was not an excuse for not giving if they are properly disposed to. Notwithstanding, I do consider it wrong for anyone to force someone else to give, irrespective of how rich or poor the giver is.

If the giver is poor but decides to give because of the love he or she has for God, then I do not see anything wrong with this in itself. As long as he or she is not giving because of fear or/and compulsion.

For the ish with building a number of edifices, I really do not know the rationale behind building this one but still if it is for a 'good cause' then I do not have a problem with it.

frosbel:
Do not give a penny to this project , pay your rent, bills , feed your children and then give to the poor and needy around you. Go to the Lord in prayer before you donate a penny, I am sure there are worthier causes all around us.

I think this should be left for them to decide. If they are moved to give and they are sure they give for the right reasons, then of course they can give.

Your advice about taken care of their families first is praise-worthy. I don't advise anyone to give 'the food meant for the Children to the dogs'. Feed your families first, take care of your expenses and if after these you have some to spare then you can donate, if done for the right reasons.

frosbel:
People, it is time you follow JESUS and stop enriching MEN and their dreams. You do not need to go to a specific place to find Jesus, if we have the Spirit , he is always present for he has said " I will never leave you or forsake you ".

As much as I agree that a lot of businessmen are currently reaping where they have not sown, under the title of MoG, I still believe firmly that Sacred scriptures is not against giving to true men of God. Matter of factly, Sacred scriptures tagged it their right to receive from preaching the gospel, as Paul puts it:

1 Corinthians 9:11
New International Version (NIV)

11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?


He went on to say:


1 Corinthians 9:13-14
New International Version (NIV)

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

Now, I agree that we need not seek God in very far places but this does not stop us from joining the brethren to worship. Sacred scriptures encourages believers to meet and live as a community.

Hebrews 10:24-25
New International Version (NIV)

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

So, if the community of believers decides that meeting at a specific place will be convenient for them, I see no reason why they cannot go there to meet.

frosbel:
Free yourselves from MEN, follow JESUS, on judgement day Adeboye will not save you or stand in for you, on judgement day RCCG will not save you, now is the time to do the right thing and go back to new testament Christianity.

Yea, there is a need for us to focus more on Christ and less on men. If we must do anything, let it be because of our love for Jesus. If we give, let it be because of Jesus. If we gather in community, let it be because of Jesus.

The moment we stop seeing Jesus and start seeing men instead, then there will be a cause for concern because everything we do, say, think etc should be done in and through Jesus.

frosbel:
Thanks.

Thank you too for this wonderful piece.

@Striklymi, u ppl keep on misinterpreting the story of d woman with alabaster box and Jesus. Pls did this woman pour d expensive oil on d building or on d body ofJesus Christ? The story is very clear, it was on d body of Christ, we all know dat D BODY OF CHRIST IS NOT BUILDINGS BUT MEMBERS OF D CHURCH. The bible says, "for God so love the world...." its not d world of buildings but the world of men, pls lets stop pursuing guiness book of records awards of building d bigest auditorium in d world rather lets build ppl bc dats what intrests Christ. God bless.

potentpraise:

Mr Goshen360 when will you have time to contribute? You are begining to lie like those you are acquising.
May God help you. I am waiting for your sculpturally made analysis...not scripturally because i know, no analysis you will bring other than the one that you made and attached some unmeasurable quotes



How can you extablish that you are christian? Christianity is not about the belief in the religion or going to church. Its people who are christ-like: they have the characteristics of christ. Today is gone and you are yet to contribute is that your second day lie? Before you misquote Adeboye, you should ask yourself how many poor have you helped in nigeria or even on the street of NY?

Anyways, i am giving you the opportunity to reflect on this and come take some biblical lectures from me, so you can be confident that you are dealing with issues scripturally.. My good friend--lol

My good friend,

Long time. No vex abeg. If I say I will return to a topic and contribute, most times, I'm so busy and by the time I come back, the topic must have gone too far. Anyway, na busy-busy make me delay and by the time I return home, I'm too tired. Efen this one wey I wan talk sef, I nefa get time like that.

Anyway, the RCCG is putting people under undue pressure towards giving and such is not scriptural. Scripture does not permit ANY moG to mention or suggest any amount a believer is suppose to give - as a man purpose IN HIS HEART, SO LET HIM GIVE. When I was in OFFA, the system is, (and I know it still works that way) all tithes collected from all parishes are all sent to the national headquaters. Where does such practices exist in scripture? I first challenged that practices, not knowing I will one day become an anti-tithe. I questioned my pastor then, if you like make your research, he is Pastor H.C. Monyei and the Area Pastor, Oladoye. I questioned both of them why we must sent all tithes to the headquarters when the local parish is struggling to survive with finances.

The truth of the matter is, RCCG only invest money in parishes where their leaders know will generate more return in more lucrative areas; more or less like business investment strategies while they will leave their local non lucrative area parishes to struggle on their one and while struggling, must still remit all tithes to national headquarters. I though they teach that tithe must be remit to where one worship? If people don't worship in the national headquarter, why will they remit tithe to national headquarter? The same headquarter that we remit all tithe to will never allocate money for us when we needed to buy land, pews, etc. Not to boast about this, my sacrifices and commitments in the things of God are still in the memories of these two pastors I mentioned.

RCCG just built the present building last year or two, if I'm not mistaken and the same way, millions of people were asked to contribute by specifying certain amount to certain categories of people. That's unscriptural. If a man of God is to make know a project, he should just announce it and let the people decide what they going to give not the man of God making some special amount for the rich and some for the poor.

You talked about how many people (poor) I have help so far. I just laugh at you because that argument is out of evils in your heart. First, I don't have to announce my help to nobody. Second, I have a record here on this forum how I help people I have not even seen or met, except by this forum - I don't have to mention names. Listen, giving is part of my lifestyle and giving is living. If I do such help to people not in NY, how much more do you think I will do to helping people where I reside? You're just saying what you know nothing about my friend.

Anyway, long story short, RCCG is building empire NOT kingdom.

christemmbassey: @Striklymi, u ppl keep on misinterpreting the story of d woman with alabaster box and Jesus. Pls did this woman pour d expensive oil on d building or on d body ofJesus Christ? The story is very clear, it was on d body of Christ, we all know dat D BODY OF CHRIST IS NOT BUILDINGS BUT MEMBERS OF D CHURCH. The bible says, "for God so love the world...." its not d world of buildings but the world of men, pls lets stop pursuing guiness book of records awards of building d bigest auditorium in d world rather lets build ppl bc dats what intrests Christ. God bless.

Nah I don't agree with this entirely.

I agree to the extent that not every building is necessary for the worship of God and anyone who wants to build for vain glory shouldn't start the project in the first place. This was evident in the time of David.

God rejected his plans to build a house of prayer for him but nonetheless, he accepted that of Solomon because it was done for the right reasons.

The temple Solomon built would have been registered in the Guinness book of records if it were still standing today. So, the ish is not whether the building is an edifice but rather about whether God is pleased with the project.

Now, coming to the story about the woman with the Alabaster jar, the point there is very clear: WE CAN CHOOSE TO SPEND OUR RESOURCES ON OTHER THINGS APART FROM GIVEN TO THE POOR!!!

Anyone who choses to donate for the building or upkeep of a place of worship for God is NOT in the wrong. If you say that building for God is wrong then BACK IT UP WITH SACRED SCRIPTURES otherwise you only preach your personal view on the matter which can be relegated to the background.

Candour: Drummaboy

I had to cut short my self imposed ban from nairaland to applaud your treatise up there.If only christians will put in their thinking caps.becoming believers does not equate to handing our brains over to super men in the mold of MOG.

When churches fall over themselves to compete with the secular world, i have to agree a strange spirit has taken over.

Coincidentally, i have a discussion tommorow with an area pastor of the RCCG whom my sweet mum and younger sister reported my anti tithe stance to.i really want to hear what new revelation he has on this issue.

Thumbs up once again bro.

God bless u plenty

Thank you Candour

I had wanted to ask after you sometimes ago but it slipped my mind.

Do let us know how the discuss with the Pastor goes. My wife thinks I am out of my mind when I discuss mine with her too. They think it is pure heresy. I must say that our Pastors have done a good job at indoctrinating many with the tithe lie that not to tithe is for some like cursing God.

Thanks again. Pls resume NL O; we need your bright ideas.

frosbel: @Drummaboy , took some time, , but I read the entire thing

Well said and perfectly broken down.

The bottom line is this, our duty as MEN and WOMEN is to worship GOD and fear him, he will lead us to meet with fellow like minded believers , whose only motive is LOVE and sacrifice.

Well said !

Thank you frosbel.

I didnt even plan to make it that long. When I realized it was that length. I edited it and put it up on my blog and shared it on FB.

Thanks again

I feel with you and i know how hard it is to bring the people in nigeria away from this preaching about tithing

I found this on nairaland and it show what is the problem

https://www.nairaland.com/1170982/while-businesses-struggle-churches-bars

the next problem in nigeria after tithing is

for every problem the pastor will tell you pray and fast, if you want a job ......

why pastors cannot preach work hard and pray because with this the economic in nigeria will grow and they would have less people who run to the church that they need help from the pastor and the pastor would have a problem, because people will see with work they get what they want.

In my country the pastors preach work hard and pray and god will help you that you get what you want and that you have to belief in god.

Goshen360:

My good friend,

Long time. No vex abeg. If I say I will return to a topic and contribute, most times, I'm so busy and by the time I come back, the topic must have gone too far. Anyway, na busy-busy make me delay and by the time I return home, I'm too tired. Efen this one wey I wan talk sef, I nefa get time like that.

Anyway, the RCCG is putting people under undue pressure towards giving and such is not scriptural. Scripture does not permit ANY moG to mention or suggest any amount a believer is suppose to give - as a man purpose IN HIS HEART, SO LET HIM GIVE. When I was in OFFA, the system is, (and I know it still works that way) all tithes collected from all parishes are all sent to the national headquaters. Where does such practices exist in scripture? I first challenged that practices, not knowing I will one day become an anti-tithe. I questioned my pastor then, if you like make your research, he is Pastor H.C. Monyei and the Area Pastor, Oladoye. I questioned both of them why we must sent all tithes to the headquarters when the local parish is struggling to survive with finances.

The truth of the matter is, RCCG only invest money in parishes where their leaders know will generate more return in more lucrative areas; more or less like business investment strategies while they will leave their local non lucrative area parishes to struggle on their one and while struggling, must still remit all tithes to national headquarters. I though they teach that tithe must be remit to where one worship? If people don't worship in the national headquarter, why will they remit tithe to national headquarter? The same headquarter that we remit all tithe to will never allocate money for us when we needed to buy land, pews, etc. Not to boast about this, my sacrifices and commitments in the things of God are still in the memories of these two pastors I mentioned.

RCCG just built the present building last year or two, if I'm not mistaken and the same way, millions of people were asked to contribute by specifying certain amount to certain categories of people. That's unscriptural. If a man of God is to make know a project, he should just announce it and let the people decide what they going to give not the man of God making some special amount for the rich and some for the poor.

You talked about how many people (poor) I have help so far. I just laugh at you because that argument is out of evils in your heart. First, I don't have to announce my help to nobody. Second, I have a record here on this forum how I help people I have not even seen or met, except by this forum - I don't have to mention names. Listen, giving is part of my lifestyle and giving is living. If I do such help to people not in NY, how much more do you think I will do to helping people where I reside? You're just saying what you know nothing about my friend.

Anyway, long story short, RCCG is building empire NOT kingdom.

You try small and i am still not convince. Every organization has its way of operation. Jesus ministry is slightly different from John the baptist, however, they have the same fundamental principles of heaven as the last hope. Members just like you can decide to pay or not, they can decide to leave the church to another, they can also decide to give to the poor if they want.

Giving in church is not mandatory and should not be. Churches today, could be building earthly kingdoms, that should not be a worry to any one that calls himself a christian, because the bible has taught us how to discern fake/false prophet or gospel. Let every man wears his wisdom and scriptural hat when at church.

As for your giving to known and unknown, if you have not given to me, you have not giving at all. You are still not giving enough compare to how much you are making, so my friend do something, pass me some western union and better still, give some free recharge cards to some christian brothers in Nigeria..lol

@ Drummaboy

Unfortunately, your post is clouded with the same issue as frosbel's - conflating issues.

You also have issues with RCCG's doctrine in general - that much is evident. That is a valid view, but using those (and other) objections to tar this particular project is misguided in my view.

You have also made some invalid comparisons with the RCC as well, which further weakens your position:

1. On the issue of indulgences/taxation - is the RCCG introducing practices like indulgences in order to build this auditorium? No - requests have been made, and each person is free to contribute as he/she is convinced. This is the most important point - let each man ask God for direction on whether to give or not.

2. On the issue of Miracles, Signs and Wonders - while you may object to the perceived 'focus' on these, they are still valid ways in which God moves. The RCCG continue to emphasise biblical discipleship in its doctrine - even though these do not receive the same level of media publicity.

3. On the issue of 'building men' vs 'building bricks' - again, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can build men and build bricks too, especially if the bricks facilitate the building of men. That no one 'advertises' or 'reports' such men building programs does not mean they don't exist.

4. On the issue of 'pilgrimage' to the Camp. Again there is nothing wrong with this in principle - meeting together is encouraged, and no limit is placed biblically on the scale/frequency of these meetings. That people meet at camp regularly is no proof of men being developed.

5. I agree that we should be watchful for the influence of the world on our churches, however, I am not in agreement that building an auditorium for people to meet constitutes evidence of another spirit.

Spending huge sums of money on brick and mortar while there are impoverished people in your midst , is not only foolish , it is also wickedness.

You know it's because of the way some 9ja take church business is why this "3km idea" popped in his mind...

People believe in the more you go to church the more G-d wil bless you

"What happened to go ye into the world...?"

3km is no joke, trust me, if you guy encourage this, don't be surprised when in less than 5 years RCCG will want a 10km church? One thing always leads to another...ALWAYS.

In the matters of Religion, logical thinking is an abomination....it has been proved time and time again so to tell a Christian to think is almost the same as telling a Christian to question God's existence...

In the end this 3km church will be built and they will be bible verses, "fanatic" Christians supporting this....

Thanks Debosky. It showed that you read the long write up. Let me attempt a response to the issues you raised.

Debosky:

Drummaboy

Unfortunately, your post is clouded with the same issue as frosbel's - conflating issues.

You also have issues with RCCG's doctrine in general - that much is evident. That is a valid view, but using those (and other) objections to tar this particular project is misguided in my view.

There is no way my view can be valid and misguided at the same time. But let have what you have to say...

You have also made some invalid comparisons with the RCC as well, which further weakens your position:

I thought I mentioned that they both are being pre-occupied with buildings?

1. On the issue of indulgences/taxation - is the RCCG introducing practices like indulgences in order to build this auditorium? No - requests have been made, and each person is free to contribute as he/she is convinced. This is the most important point - let each man ask God for direction on whether to give or not.

The greatest strength of satan is his subtility. His ability to show up as an angel of light to deceive. If you have followed my contribution up to the last post you're commenting on, you will see were I have been talking about spirits. Every man has a spirit. Even the gospels we preach have a spirit. The true gospel is propelled by the Spirit of God; false gospels are propelled by false spirits. And yes, somethings can be dictated by spirit of greed. I mentioned in my essay that any time collections were made in teh NT (check Acts, 2Cor 8 and 9) it was always to help the poor. No collection was ever made for buildings. If I as a preacher however realize that people have money in the congregation and do not realize that there are more laudable things such money can be used for, I can very easily take advantage of these people and ask for money to build. You are right that I do not agree with Adeboye on many points of doctrine and much of what the man preaches have been proven in many places to be another gosple; shall it be difficult for him then to use another spirit to demand money off the congregation?

2. On the issue of Miracles, Signs and Wonders - while you may object to the perceived 'focus' on these, they are still valid ways in which God moves. The RCCG continue to emphasise biblical discipleship in its doctrine - even though these do not receive the same level of media publicity.

The RCCG itself, not the media, advertises her signs and wonder, miracles on TV, radio, sattelites, internet and newspapers. If their focus is truly on biblical discipleship, they will tell us so on these mediums. But they tell us what they think people want to hear and these are the reasons people go there. If people have been properly discipled like you said, the need for monthly/annual conventions would have ceased.

3. On the issue of 'building men' vs 'building bricks' - again, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can build men and build bricks too, especially if the bricks facilitate the building of men. That no one 'advertises' or 'reports' such men building programs does not mean they don't exist.

What are your NT examples. I know you can find hundreds of such in the OT and that is exactly what is wrong with the theology of RCCG and churches like them: the fact that Christ has delivered us from an old covenant but they are bent on returning us to it.

4. On the issue of 'pilgrimage' to the Camp. Again there is nothing wrong with this in principle - meeting together is encouraged, and no limit is placed biblically on the scale/frequency of these meetings. That people meet at camp regularly is no proof of men being developed.

If meeting together is encouraged biblically, why not meet together in the legion of local parishes they have in town? Why do they have to go to one man all time? If he dies what happens to the whole pilgrimage? Does this not amount to a sort of show that people go to for spiritual entertainment? NT discipleship says that we need not go up or low to find Christ; the word of faith that we need is close to us. Jesus is a shepherd who leads his sheep to green pastures; the sheep does not need to travel to find pasture to eat. God knows how many people have lost lives, limbs and loved ones because they are going to "camp".

5. I agree that we should be watchful for the influence of the world on our churches, however, I am not in agreement that building an auditorium for people to meet constitutes evidence of another spirit

I do.

What I find a bit disturbing in addition to all this is that Christians do not see anything wrong with all of this. It is does that have issues with that they take up issues with. The church has strayed so badly from apostolic doctrine and practice. We must return to them.

Sentiments rather than scriptures flying around.

Hmmmm...

#Unfollows!

striktlymi: Sentiments rather than scriptures flying around.

Hmmmm...

#Unfollows!

Maybe this scripture would help

Acts 17
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

Our bodies are the temple of christ, that is what a true church should focus on and not brick and morter.

striktlymi: Sentiments rather than scriptures flying around.

Hmmmm...

#Unfollows!

u r right...sentiments...that is what i am seeing too!
Unfollow thread too.#

DrummaBoy: Thanks Debosky. It showed that you read the long write up. Let me attempt a response to the issues you raised.

There is no way my view can be valid and misguided at the same time. But let have what you have to say...

There is. . . .you can have a valid opposition to some of their doctrines, but if that leads you to view EVERYTHING through that lens, you may have an issue. It's like saying because I disagree with Pastor Kun on the trinity, I immediately condemn him for not supporting tithing as well, assuming anything he says must be wrong.

I thought I mentioned that they both are being pre-occupied with buildings?

No - the RCC was building St. Peter's to be a glorious building for admiration of the world. This particular project is aimed at housing people who are currently coming together under less than ideal circumstances. Even Jesus in his lifetime sought the welfare of those who had come to listen to him teach. That is the equivalent of what I believe the RCCG is seeking to do, not a grandiose vanity project like the Basilica.

The greatest strength of satan is his subtility. His ability to show up as an angel of light to deceive. If you have followed my contribution up to the last post you're commenting on, you will see were I have been talking about spirits. Every man has a spirit. Even the gospels we preach have a spirit. The true gospel is propelled by the Spirit of God; false gospels are propelled by false spirits. And yes, somethings can be dictated by spirit of greed. I mentioned in my essay that any time collections were made in teh NT (check Acts, 2Cor 8 and 9) it was always to help the poor. No collection was ever made for buildings. If I as a preacher however realize that people have money in the congregation and do not realize that there are more laudable things such money can be used for, I can very easily take advantage of these people and ask for money to build. You are right that I do not agree with Adeboye on many points of doctrine and much of what the man preaches have been proven in many places to be another gosple; shall it be difficult for him then to use another spirit to demand money off the congregation?

You are making a leap again - simply saying RCCG is 'wrong' in one area of doctrine (in your view) is not sufficient cause to say they are wrong on this account. I appreciate your point on subtility and the need to be on guard, but that is different from imputing negative motivations to this project simply due to your other views about RCCG.

The RCCG itself, not the media, advertises her signs and wonder, miracles on TV, radio, sattelites, internet and newspapers. If their focus is truly on biblical discipleship, they will tell us so on these mediums. But they tell us what they think people want to hear and these are the reasons people go there. If people have been properly discipled like you said, the need for monthly/annual conventions would have ceased.

This is largely a matter of approach - miracles serve to bring people in, and discipleship can only be carried out once people are drawn in. Jesus appealed to unbelievers too with signs and wonders, so again there is nothing unscriptural in letting miracles and signs draw in unbelievers. Even the first disciples only followed Jesus after seeing his miracles.

What are your NT examples. I know you can find hundreds of such in the OT and that is exactly what is wrong with the theology of RCCG and churches like them: the fact that Christ has delivered us from an old covenant but they are bent on returning us to it.

There are examples of Jesus providing for people's needs while they came to listen to him - the feeding of the 5,000 was one instance. I do not see a returning to the OT simply by building a place to meet together - I don't see a holy of holies or outer court or ark of the covenant in RCCG, or burnt sacrifices. To imply building places to meet is returning us to the OT is simply absurd. There is no prohibition of collecting funds for building meeting places in the NT.

If meeting together is encouraged biblically, why not meet together in the legion of local parishes they have in town? Why do they have to go to one man all time? If he dies what happens to the whole pilgrimage? Does this not amount to a sort of show that people go to for spiritual entertainment? NT discipleship says that we need not go up or low to find Christ; the word of faith that we need is close to us. Jesus is a shepherd who leads his sheep to green pastures; the sheep does not need to travel to find pasture to eat. God knows how many people have lost lives, limbs and loved ones because they are going to "camp".

Again, there is still no prohibition to people meeting regularly in Jesus name, even if under the leadership of one man. There is no biblical limitation on the number of people that can meet together under the leadership of one man, nor the frequency. It may not be to your taste, but it is neither prohibited nor condemned in the bible. I am not saying the RCCG method is the gold standard or the best way to do it, but neither is it wrong. Those that go know why they do so - leave it between them and God and don't seek to demean it simply because it doesn't sit with your own views.

What I find a bit disturbing in addition to all this is that Christians do not see anything wrong with all of this. It is does that have issues with that they take up issues with. The church has strayed so badly from apostolic doctrine and practice. We must return to them.

There is nothing contradictory in meeting together or facilitating such fellowship in decent environs protecting people from the elements. There is nothing contradictory in building a meeting place and apostolic practice. Overseers are supposed to care for the flock - if the intent is to provide a meeting place to cater for people's needs, the building is fully in line with doctrine.

If we were talking about private jets now, I would hold a different view.

[size=18pt]before you donate your fortune, think about this, but its not compulsory you change your mind!
think of the most important thing in your life is NOT TO CONTRIBUTE YOUR FURTUNE to a project that will not withstand the fury of the lords day![/size]

[size=14pt]remember that the lords day will COME ANYTIME FROM NOW and will destroy [/size]all this beatiful state of the art buildings even those built for Gods people, remember that it will come as a thief;


2 peter 3:11-14

[size=14pt]10 But the day of the Lord[b] will come like a thief[/b]. [/size]The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, [size=14pt]and the earth and everything done in it[b] will be laid bare.[/b]
[/size]

[size=14pt]learn from the beatiful temple experience! the temple where the jews worshiped was an example, the disciple recognised the expensive stones used for its building, but what did jesus said will happen to it[/size];

read;

Mark 13

13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, [size=14pt]one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
[/size]
[size=14pt]2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one[b] will be thrown down[/b].”[/size]

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4[size=14pt] “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”[/size]

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’[a] standing where it[b] does not belong—let the reader understand—[/b]then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

20[b][b] “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.[/b] 22[size=14pt] For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
[/size]

2 peter 3:11-14


11[size=14pt] Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives [/b]12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[/size] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 [size=14pt]But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.[/size]

[size=14pt]14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, [b]make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.[/size]


"make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him" rather than thinking building a beatiful auditorium will make you spotless before the lord, a word is enough for the wise!

potentpraise:

As for your giving to known and unknown, if you have not given to me, you have not giving at all. You are still not giving enough compare to how much you are making, so my friend do something, pass me some western union and better still, give some free recharge cards to some christian brothers in Nigeria..lol

My friend, I actually forgot to mention this part and it shows we are both in the Spirit. I had wanted to ask the same question that, abi na because the western union nefa reach your side na eim no make you believe wetin I dey talk? Ol Boy, you don try small sha. But when you drop that tithe collection, I go include you for my list of western union. You suppose don get better pepper from the tithe naw....LWKMD! Anyway, e fit tay small before the thing reach you o my guy, many people dey wait for line make e reach their turn but make you fast and pray to you no go wait like that man by the pool of Bethesda

Candour: Drummaboy

I had to cut short my self imposed ban from nairaland to applaud your treatise up there.If only christians will put in their thinking caps.becoming believers does not equate to handing our brains over to super men in the mold of MOG.

When churches fall over themselves to compete with the secular world, i have to agree a strange spirit has taken over.

Coincidentally, i have a discussion tommorow with an area pastor of the RCCG whom my sweet mum and younger sister reported my anti tithe stance to.i really want to hear what new revelation he has on this issue.

Thumbs up once again bro.

God bless u plenty

LWKMD!!!

I can tell you what will happen in that discussion. I have made one RCCG pastor to quit the organization. The brother was my mentor when I was young in the Lord, when I just came to Christ. I called him from the States here and spent like 2 hours with him on phone and lectured someone who was and sometimes is still my mentor. By the time I was through with my teachings with him, I completely agreed with me and I told him to go study more on what I have said. The next 2-3 weeks after he had also studied the subject again, he called me that he quit the RCCG because his conscience will not allow him continue to teach tithe while he remains a pastor there.

@ Candour,

What will happen is when you do have the discussion with the area pastor is, he will be convinced and even his eyes will be open to the truth but because he also get his salary from such tithe; he might try to use subtle words to calm you down and try to cover up for RCCG and the leadership. You must endeavour to let him understand, holding the word in unrighteousness is deceit and such should not be mentioned among God's people.

We hope to get the feedback though.

DrummaBoy:
What I find a bit disturbing in addition to all this is that Christians do not see anything wrong with all of this. It is does that have issues with that they take up issues with. The church has strayed so badly from apostolic doctrine and practice. We must return to them.

Don't know why you are complaining. abi you want camp attendees to stand in the rain? Honestly, i don't think a three kilo auditorium will be adequate as it likely to fill up fast (in the near future), and the church will then have to raise fund for a bigger structure. i would propose a 10/20 kilometre auditorium at this time to save future cost

419nigga: . Yeah a lot of ppl contributed to their schools nd nt everybody attents but do yu knw that the church runs a scholarship program for almost every of its members , every redeem parish, did yu knw? I knw the traffic is horrible yeah, its bad but I'm nt saying its good either...but I'm after those ppl that says the 3km auditorium is for the pastor...its in the best intrest of US the members...if yu don't understand ask for more explanation from a redeemer who was at the camp last week what the population was like....they've got one of the best welfare packages in the country...so only we that's in the system understands and are willing to support his project, don't conclude and judge what yu knw little or nothiNg about...

My 2shillings

So in other words you actually know someone in YOUR parish who attends these schools on such scholarship

jaytee01: So in other words you actually know someone in YOUR parish who attends these schools on such scholarship

y do u bother urself? D bros name na 419, its like satan and lies, they one n d same.

If Alwaystrue and Bidam will imitate you in the manner of your response and not have to resort to sentiments and bile, I would have little trouble with them

debosky:

There is. . . .you can have a valid opposition to some of their doctrayines, but if that leads you to view EVERYTHING through that lens, you may have an issue. It's like saying because I disagree with Pastor Kun on the trinity, I immediately condemn him for not supporting tithing as well, assuming anything he says must be wrong.

I do not oppose everything about the RCCG; I only oppose many. I recognize the RCCG as a church of Christ were many are coming to know Christ and being discipled but I think the manner of doing it can be better enhanced to yield more results. Many churches, including my won here in Ibadan, imitate Baba Adeboye and if somethings he does or allows are left unchecked it can very easily become standard for many in the Nigerian church. So, my broda, debosky, I am seeing this issue clearly and not from a clouded lens of prejudice. I mean, what do you think will happen if we begin to have 3 km by 3 km churches all around town. It will be commotion. Already, the preponderance of these churches in the nation is a headache and many of them are simply imitating Baba.

No - the RCC was building St. Peter's to be a glorious building for admiration of the world. This particular project is aimed at housing people who are currently coming together under less than ideal circumstances. Even Jesus in his lifetime sought the welfare of those who had come to listen to him teach. That is the equivalent of what I believe the RCCG is seeking to do, not a grandiose vanity project like the Basilica.

Debosky, let me attach here something I put up on my facebook and then I will make my point

Immigrants were flooding New York City then (with as many as 30 000 orphan immigrants on the streets in 1850), and no one had the time or money to look after their plight - no one, except Charles Losing Brace, a 26-year-old minister. Horrified by their plight, he organized a unique solution, the Orphan Train. The idea was simple: pack hundreds of orphans on a train heading west (of the USA) and announce to towns along the way that anyone could claim a new son or daughter when the Orphan Train chugged through.

By the time the last Orphan Train streamed west in 1929, 100,000 children had found new homes and new lives. Two orphans from such trains became governors, one served as a United States congressman, and still another was a U.S. Supreme Court Judge (culled from the Zondervan NIV Student Bible, page 1050).

This for me is VISION worth imitating. I believe I have said about all I need to say concerning the RCCG's 3 km by 3 km church auditorium.

It is good that religious discourse is upped in this country and we begin to learn to treat issues and let go of personalities. The matter on ground is the building of a 9km square church. What sort of vision is this? Why do we need people having to travel long distances to hear God's word? What about the perils associated with these travels? The traditional means of ministering in all times is to minister to saints in a locality. If you feel there is the need to reach more people, there is the radio, TV and sattelite to reach far distances. Why do people have to travel to have their spiritual needs met? And now that the congregation is growing, why not devise another means of reaching them so that the over crowding they are contending with can stop, the traffic situation on the express can improve and everybody can have some peace! I am sorry to say it: but the reason why this cannot be done is because the RCCG people have succeeded in deifying their Pastor and the man is enjoying every bit of it. They do not realize that God does not share glory with man and that they are reducing the man's life span that way.

Even Moses in the OT knew better. That if he has to minister to so many people at the same time, they will wear him out. The wise things is to divide them up under other leaders. It will be assumed that we are supposed to be wiser in the NT but not RCCG... So if wisdom is applied as it should be there will be no need for a mass exodus of people to receive spiritual adminishing on the express and thus no need for a building. If the 9 km square building is built today; what certainty do we have that they would not be needing a bigger place after tommorow? And can anyone assure us that following the leader's retirment or death, this crowd will be sustained. And if it cannot be sustained, why the need to waste resources on such? There so much more we can use resources for in Christ kingdom. The problem is not a lack of resources but a lack of vision.

You are making a leap again - simply saying RCCG is 'wrong' in one area of doctrine (in your view) is not sufficient cause to say they are wrong on this account. I appreciate your point on subtility and the need to be on guard, but that is different from imputing negative motivations to this project simply due to your other views about RCCG.

Most of the time a destructive means cannot bring about constructive ends. If I criticize RCCG today, it is more likely going to be on doctrinal matters that tend to yield practices that do not glorify Christ. So it is not so much of a "leap" here but a continuum.

This is largely a matter of approach - miracles serve to bring people in, and discipleship can only be carried out once people are drawn in. Jesus appealed to unbelievers too with signs and wonders, so again there is nothing unscriptural in letting miracles and signs draw in unbelievers. Even the first disciples only followed Jesus after seeing his miracles.

That is right. Christ was confirmed via signs and wonders also. But do you notice something about our Lord: how he instructs recipients of his miracle to be secretive about it? How he tries to avoid the crowd; even though he could accord a lot of glory to himself as the Lord of glory. Compare this to our modern day miracle workers: hand bills, jingles on radio and advert on TV, billboards - all announcing signs and wonders. In apostolic days, the signs and wonders were done on mission fields as they reached men for Christ; today, miracles are done on stage. That is why I call you to compare the Spirit. Paul calls us to judge the spirit. Because, as John said, many spirits have gone out... and it behooves us to be discerning.

There are examples of Jesus providing for people's needs while they came to listen to him - the feeding of the 5,000 was one instance. I do not see a returning to the OT simply by building a place to meet together - I don't see a holy of holies or outer court or ark of the covenant in RCCG, or burnt sacrifices. To imply building places to meet is returning us to the OT is simply absurd. There is no prohibition of collecting funds for building meeting places in the NT.

And I agree with you. I am not against building. I am against what we pre-occupy ourselves with in the name of gospel preaching. Any investment in the world is with the hope of maximum yield or impact; Will RCCG not make more impact if it find better means of channeling the over 1 billion naira it intends to raise for this building if it tries? Debosky, I believe you reside in Nigeria; do you see needs around you? Are there not more things to use money for? I think I have belabored that point way too much.

Again, there is still no prohibition to people meeting regularly in Jesus name, even if under the leadership of one man. There is no biblical limitation on the number of people that can meet together under the leadership of one man, nor the frequency. It may not be to your taste, but it is neither prohibited nor condemned in the bible. I am not saying the RCCG method is the gold standard or the best way to do it, but neither is it wrong. Those that go know why they do so - leave it between them and God and don't seek to demean it simply because it doesn't sit with your own views.

Certainly there is no prohibition, now. But do we have to wait until we are prohibitted before we do the right thing? In many countries laws have been enacted to curb pentecostal excesses. I hear of the Camerounian govt banning hundreds of pentecostal churches recently and no one orthodox church was. El-Rufai said in his book that all the churches whose building were pulled down were all new generational churches and not one orthodox assembly. In those days, the church and Christians set the pace for positivism and progress in socieity. If in our day, civil government have to restrain church excesses because they broke laws, we need to check again the spirit behind such "churches".

There is nothing contradictory in meeting together or facilitating such fellowship in decent environs protecting people from the elements. There is nothing contradictory in building a meeting place and apostolic practice. Overseers are supposed to care for the flock - if the intent is to provide a meeting place to cater for people's needs, the building is fully in line with doctrine.

Our modern day overseers need to find more scriptural means of taking care of the flock. The example the RCCG is setting is not worthy of emulation.

If we were talking about private jets now, I would hold a different view.

Atleast, we agree on that one.

I refer you to this thread Pastor Kun opened recently https://www.nairaland.com/1398401/proposed-new-rccg-auditorium-another

Thanks.

all the churches they have is not enough?

Zikkyy:

Don't know why you are complaining. abi you want camp attendees to stand in the rain? Honestly, i don't think a three kilo auditorium will be adequate as it likely to fill up fast (in the near future), and the church will then have to raise fund for a bigger structure. i would propose a 10/20 kilometre auditorium at this time to save future cost

Zikky's sarcasm is better than ever.

Goshen360:

My friend, I actually forgot to mention this part and it shows we are both in the Spirit. I had wanted to ask the same question that, abi na because the western union nefa reach your side na eim no make you believe wetin I dey talk? Ol Boy, you don try small sha. But when you drop that tithe collection, I go include you for my list of western union. You suppose don get better pepper from the tithe naw....LWKMD! Anyway, e fit tay small before the thing reach you o my guy, many people dey wait for line make e reach their turn but make you fast and pray to you no go wait like that man by the pool of Bethesda

I dey laugh o.. You better repent. You are a typical naija man, omo ti ekun ba bi, ekun lo ma jo(A lion will never give birth to a dog-you are son of your father) List of western union. any ways na prayer you dey pray for yourself, hopefully you will grow financially and one day you will be able to fulfil your obligation in sending some money to love ones and relatives... i want remind you self, iya risika was trying to get your number and would prefer you give her some money so she can pay her tithes and offering. make sure you help her out o

@DrummaBoy, Pastor Kun & Goshen360, you asked for update of my meeting so here goes

Well, i went to the see the pastor as agreed and i was armed with my bible of course.I really was ready to show him all he was missing or mixing up but as we approached his place(my sister and i), i had a leading in my spirit to just listen and hear him out and i was glad i did.

We exchanged pleasantries, sat down and he began to speak.He started by asking when i stopped tithing and i told him exactly 2 years ago this august.He then wanted to know how my finances and health were faring to which i replied that i had never been better placed in these areas.I believe this threw him off balance (as he obviously expected a negative report) and forced him to adopt a new approach.He cited Abram's tithe to Melchizedek and tied it to Gal 3:14,17 (i wondered the extrapolation he did to arrive at that link). He agreed Abraham had been blessed in Gen 12 but explained the blessing did not come in full until he paid tithe in Gen 14(more surprise). He agreed Jacob's tithe was a vow(therefore voluntary) but said this was why God made it a law under Moses(another wonder).He admitted Christ has delivered us from the curse of the law(Gal 3:13) but said that Oyedepo and Adeboye confirmed(from God of course) that financial blessings could only come from obedience to the tithe(really?).At this point, i ignored my bible(as he didn't have need for it) and just kept staring at him.

He then delved into testimonies of what Tithe paying had done in the lives of people.How Copeland got so rich by obeying tithe that he dashed out 26 jets out of his personal collections.How Oyedepo acquired 4 jets and started an airline just by obeying tithe too.Then how he too will soon join their ranks because he's obeying the tithe.I guess he deciphered i wasn't moved by these so he told of 7 Colombian youths who were shown the harsh torment in hell for good Christians(his exact words) who refused to pay tithes.Then he told me how God had planned great riches for me but non payment of tithe was hindering them. He admitted i looked comfortable but there was a higher plane of riches i needed to get to.

At this point he conceded that there were Christians who were not reaping benefits of tithe but he will soon release a message that will explain how to make tithe work for you. He then ended by saying i should pray to God that night for God to reveal the tithe principle to me.

At this point, i thanked him for his time and took my leave.I had come for a bible discussion but i ended up being preached at.It was a long sermon but it left me very sad. Sad at how Christians who should be relaxed and revel in God's peace were busy getting worked up in the hysteria of material acquisitions and becoming depressed when expectations are dashed.I was very happy i didn't talk much as it might have looked like bragging and it wouldn't glorify God.

My brethren, the sheer emptiness of most sermons in our churches of today hit me fresh from my encounter with this pastor.I could just imagine him struggling to make God see him as qualified for blessings(he hinted at financial difficulties for the past 12 months) when he ought to be walking in the realization that we were already blessed simply because we are in Christ Eph 1:3.We have access to all we need because of God's love Rom 8:32, Phil 4:19, Heb 13:5

That night, i just prayed that God will liberate him from his legalistic bondage. What more could i do?