Goshen360:



And you answered my question?

Na wayo man you be have you forgotten my queshion about the cloud of witnesses?
Are they going to separate us and them in heaven just because we operate in the new covenant and they in the old covenant? You re yet to answer me.That best gives you away because you re preaching a different Christ and a different God here.

Bidam: Na wayo man you be have you forgotten my queshion about the cloud of witnesses?
Are they going to separate us and them in heaven just because we operate in the new covenant and they in the old covenant? You re yet to answer me.That best gives you away because you re preaching a different Christ and a different God here.

And what do they have to do with tithe? They witness that couldn't receive the promise. How about that?

Goshen360:

And what do they have to do with tithe? They witness that couldn't receive the promise. How about that?

And still without them we can't be perfected.That's why the bible called them witnesses,how do you explain that?

Bidam: And still without them we can't be perfected.That's why the bible called them witnesses,how do you explain that?

You err not knowing the scriptures. My perfection is not based on them but on what Christ did. Stop diverting the topic please! Do you mind answering my question now?

Bidam: And still without them we can't be perfected.That's why the bible called them witnesses,how do you explain that?

It's the other way round o. Without us they can't be perfect .

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Joagbaje:

It's the other way round o. Without us they can't be perfect .

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

No mind that Bidam-natu...lolz.

Joagbaje:

It's the other way round o. Without us they can't be perfect .

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Read Niv to get my point. Only together can we be perfected. My point is One love,one faith,one baptism,There is no difference between a jew and a gentile.It is the same Lord.Even Moses regarded disgrace for Christ of far greater value Don't forget Christ has not even come on the scene.

Bidam: Read Niv to get my point. Only together can we be perfected. My point is One love,one faith,one baptism,There is no difference between a jew and a gentile.It is the same Lord.Even Moses regarded disgrace for Christ of far greater value Don't forget Christ has not even come on the scene.

You always going in circles saying nothing!

Goshen360:

You always going in circles saying nothing!

whatever

Goshen360:

You err not knowing the scriptures. My perfection is not based on them but on what Christ did. Stop diverting the topic please! Do you mind answering my question now?

Strawmann.I never said your perfection was based on them.

lahchi:
You just bring out your opinion that tithe is compulsory for christians where was it written that the saints paid tithe or did the writters forget? Remember everything written in the Bible is written through the Inspiration of God and don't add and subtract from what has been written.

oK..lemme go straight to the point since you really wanna know.

No where in my writing did i say tithing was compulsory.Salvation is not compulsory but it's there in the bible.You reap what you sow actually.Even if the New Testament does not require a tithe,does it mean you don't use the O.T. principle to train your children? The NT does not mention corporal punishment,Remember?

The NT does not mention saving money, but you do so from Solomon (Pr 6:8; 30:25). It does not mention many godly rules or principles, which may be assumed from the O.T.And that was why i tried my very best explaining the covenants to you guys.

Bidam: oK..lemme go straight to the point since you really wanna know.

No where in my writing did i say tithing was compulsory.Salvation is not compulsory but it's there in the bible.You reap what you sow actually.Even if the New Testament does not require a tithe,does it mean you don't use the O.T. principle to train your children? The NT does not mention corporal punishment,Remember?

The NT does not mention saving money, but you do so from Solomon (Pr 6:8; 30:25). It does not mention many godly rules or principles, which may be assumed from the O.T.And that was why i tried my very best explaining the covenants to you guys.

You have been studying another man's covenant and so, you don't understand your own better covenant.

Joagbaje:

They did.it was life for them

^^

what else do we need to hear ?

He speaks what is not written in the bible. Smh for liars.

Bidam: oK..lemme go straight to the point since you really wanna know.

No where in my writing did i say tithing was compulsory.Salvation is not compulsory but it's there in the bible.You reap what you sow actually.Even if the New Testament does not require a tithe,does it mean you don't use the O.T. principle to train your children? The NT does not mention corporal punishment,Remember?

The NT does not mention saving money, but you do so from Solomon (Pr 6:8; 30:25). It does not mention many godly rules or principles, which may be assumed from the O.T.And that was why i tried my very best explaining the covenants to you guys.

Corpora punishment and savings is nt done by people because it's in the Bible but because it's a natural instinct. Or u want to say before the Bible came to be known by Africans, we didn't punish our kids, and save money?

This is what foreign interference and brainwashing has done to people of Africa to the extent that their own laws and tradition is tagged as evil/demonic.

macof:

Corpora punishment and savings is nt done by people because it's in the Bible but because it's a natural instinct. Or u want to say before the Bible came to be known by Africans, we didn't punish our kids, and save money?

So you agree that giving(hospitality) is a natural instinct abi? You fail to see the basis of my argument.No where is it written that the tithes was abolished in the NT? And no where is it written that the Tithe was commanded in the NT.We are using the scriptures here as a guide to understand what God requires and desires of us as believers. "The moment you begin to question the authority of the Old Testament or the New Testament, you are of necessity questioning the authority of Christ, our Saviour and Lord. To Him "the Scripture cannot be broken."-QUOTE FROM KUMUYI

Goshen360:



You have been studying another man's covenant and so, you don't understand your own better covenant.

You are ignorant.The old covenant explained what the new covenant was all about.Do you agree and believe that Christ was concealed in the OT?

Joagbaje:
The law in the New Testament in embedded in our nature of love. It's a nature to us. We only do contrary by our rebellion

exactly what we been telling the lovers of the mosaic law. True Christians don't respond to mosaic law anymore, it's no longer useful/relevant.

Joagbaje:
By default , the ministers in the tabernacle. But there are some indication some individual prophets recieved similar things . For example FIRSTFRUITS belong to the terbenacke but it was brought to the prophet here .

2 Kings 4:42
And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat


But it's not an issue for now. But because you asked

I believe we are discussing tithe here. The law of tithe is not the same as the law for the first-fruit.

Bidam: You are ignorant.The old covenant explained what the new covenant was all about.Do you agree and believe that Christ was concealed in the OT?

Who is talking about whether Christ was concealed in the OT or not? I'm talking about the Old covenant is DIFFERENT from the new and NOT a CONTINUATION to the Old. What is it you don't understand about that?

Joagbaje:
The tithe was not a shadow of anything . It's and endless ministry . As long as there's a high priest here must be tithing . Before and after the law . The priestly ministry of Jesus is endless

Says who? there is no scripture that supports the teaching that says there must be tithing as long as there's is a high priest. If you are unable to provide supporting scripture people will continue to see you as a fraud.

Joagbaje:
From genesis to the New Testament . It's called tithe ,which means 10% it's pan for thousands of years , it's still called 10% . When we get to heaven we should ask God why not 50% of 5.

answer this question joagbaje, do you believe God will accept 10% of income from prostitution? what about 10% of takings from armed robbery? You can see tithe is not just 10%, it is a tenth of something. You can see it's not even the tenth (or 10%) of income, otherwise 'bad income' becomes acceptable. Because people are paying something that was never commanded by God, they have problem defining it. Today people pay what they or their pastor define as 10%. Tithe in the bible was never 10%. it was a/the tenth of something and the Jews did not have problem paying their tithe cos God defined his tithe in Leviticus 27.

Joagbaje:
You should note that for a giver , 10% is the least of our givings . It's too small to be a debate . Is the problem the amount or the name?

I don't have problem with the amount you give to your pastor or what you decide to call the giving/paying. That's your wahala. We have a problem when you decide to teach that it is a commandment from God and justify it using you Malachi or Mathew 23. it is also wrong of you (and every other teacher) to teach that people should give 10% of their income as tithe to the church/pastor. It is no longer freewill giving. If God's law is now written on the heart, let the heart decide the giving. we no longer live by the law written on stone.

After reading from page 1 to 4 of this thread, I have the previledge to commend all analysts here.

1. All the mosaic laws and commands of the past had been converted to two basic laws. Which is: love God wit your whole... And the second is love your neighbour as yourself.

2. Christians who love God will give freely his/her time, resources, money to support the work of God. It is not to be measured by percentage. Most of this pastors emphasizes on tithe for their own selfish reasons.

3. Therefore, I am not suprised to see churches spring up like recharge cards centers just because everybody wnts to become a G.O. So as to collect as much tithe as possible from alliterates church-goers.

Finally, if anybody here claims tithe is for Christians, then he or she must either be a pastor or an illitrate who cannot read the bible.
I get pankere for here o. To correct all the F9 students of tithe.

Zikkyy:

Says who? there is no scripture that supports the teaching that says there must be tithing as long as there's is a high priest. If you are unable to provide supporting scripture people will continue to see you as a fraud.

I don't have problem with the amount you give to your pastor or what you decide to call the giving/paying. That's your wahala. We have a problem when you decide to teach that it is a commandment from God and justify it using you Malachi or Mathew 23. it is also wrong of you (and every other teacher) to teach that people should give 10% of their income as tithe to the church/pastor. It is no longer freewill giving. If God's law is now written on the heart, let the heart decide the giving. we no longer live by the law written on stone.

That's the word of truth right there!

Goshen360:

Who is talking about whether Christ was concealed in the OT or not? I'm talking about the Old covenant is DIFFERENT from the new and NOT a CONTINUATION to the Old. What is it you don't understand about that?

I don't understand your replacement theology here, you re preaching another different christ and that is what i am telling you here.The Book of Hebrews was probably written by Paul to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem.

It was given that name hebrews because its message and arguments are largely directed to Jews, people who have been under Abraham’s covenant. Chapter 8 argues there is now a better covenant for Jews, mediated by Jesus, that makes keeping God’s laws not a rule but an instinct.

Paul does not say the old covenant has been abolished. Instead, he says it is in the process of decay and is ready to vanish (Heb. 8:13).

So i find it an error in your teachings when you pick Hebrews out of context to explain Galatians also out of context.In contrast to Hebrews, Galatians was written not primarily to Jews but to the Gentile saints of Galatia. It says the old Abrahamic covenant produced Jesus, the singular “seed” of Abraham (Gal. 3:16).Jesus brought salvation to the Gentiles. But such was not a “new covenant” to Gentiles because, as “wild branches,” we Gentiles never had a covenant in the first place.

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham…For ye are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus…And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal. 3:7, 26, 29)

All of this comes to the church through grace, not covenant. Neither the church nor Gentile Christians receive new covenants from God.The grace of Christ poured out on the church does not replace Christ’s covenantal promises to the Jews.

Bidam: I don't understand your replacement theology here, you re preaching another different christ and that is what i am telling you here.The Book of Hebrews was probably written by Paul to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem.

Yes, a replacement theology in deed. The New covenant is completely different from the Old, not a continuation.

Bidam:

Paul does not say the old covenant has been abolished. Instead, he says it is in the process of decay and is ready to vanish (Heb. 8:13).

New International Version
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

Bidam:

So i find it an error in your teachings when you pick Hebrews out of context to explain Galatians also out of context.In contrast to Hebrews, Galatians was written not primarily to Jews but to the Gentile saints of Galatia. It says the old Abrahamic covenant produced Jesus, the singular “seed” of Abraham (Gal. 3:16).Jesus brought salvation to the Gentiles. But such was not a “new covenant” to Gentiles because, as “wild branches,” we Gentiles never had a covenant in the first place.

Which error is in my teachings? That I don't back them up with scriptures? The blood of Christ which enforced the new covenant was shed for MANY who believes at his death. What more you want to hear?

Goshen360:

Yes, a replacement theology in deed. The New covenant is completely different from the Old, not a continuation.

The difference was the shed blood for remissions of sins and gentiles who were en grafted into the common wealth of Israel.The Abrahamic covenant is everlasting and still applies whether you believe it or not.

New International Version
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

My point is what Paul describes in romans when he said to them "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises” (Rom. 9:4). “Pertain” in the original Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense. Paul says God presently has a long-range agenda and investment in the Jews that He is going to see fulfilled.

Which error is in my teachings? That I don't back them up with scriptures? The blood of Christ which enforced the new covenant was shed for MANY who believes at his death. What more you want to hear?

Agreed both Jews and gentiles,but it was never stated that tithing was abolished.Even the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15 clearly spelt what the gentiles are to adhere to.Read verse 21 and be liberated.

Bidam: The difference was the shed blood for remissions of sins and gentiles who were en grafted into the common wealth of Israel.The Abrahamic covenant is everlasting and still applies whether you believe it or not.

I never taught that the covenant with Abraham was null and void. Paul explained that the covenant which was before the law cannot be cancelled else, God will be breaking his covenant\promise. The question is, is tithe\tithing part of this covenant which was BEFORE the law?

Bidam:

My point is what Paul describes in romans when he said to them "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises” (Rom. 9:4). “Pertain” in the original Greek is in the present (continuous action) tense. Paul says God presently has a long-range agenda and investment in the Jews that He is going to see fulfilled.

To Israel pertaineth the adoption...the covenant, being the first and old covenant which was referred to in Hebrews. The giving of the law, being reference to the law as the national constitution of Israel. God never gave other nations the law he gave to Israel. When Hebrews says:

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete. What does that mean? It's a past tense, what is already done because the new has come to wipe away the first (old).

and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

This means, what was MADE obsolete is outdatED (past tense). Will soon disappear means it will fade away as time goes on because it's already outdatED. It's like when Nairaland changed from old version into the new, people are used to the old and a lot of people complained as the new was introduced but as time goes on, they embraced this new version and the old soon disappear with time.

Bidam:

Agreed both Jews and gentiles,but it was never stated that tithing was abolished.Even the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15 clearly spelt what the gentiles are to adhere to.Read verse 21 and be liberated.

Again, you do err my friend. If tithing was not abolished, where does it stay within the law? I come back to my question to you earlier, if you employed in a place with full wages and benefits and your employment terminated, do you still receive salary\wages from the employer that terminated you employment? I hope you know what's buried in this question for you right?

The Levites own one of the three kinds of tithe and when the Levites and their offices was abolished, does the Levites still continue to receive tithes? As they were abolished, God did not replace them with the ministry gift -pastors, evangelist etc to continue to collect such tithe. That's why I stand by a consistent truth the New Covenant is different from the Old and not a continuation to the old. If you find any scripture(s) where God replaced the Levites with the ministry gifts, kindly show them to us.

Goshen360:

I never taught that the covenant with Abraham was null and void

OK.

Paul explained that the covenant which was before the law cannot be cancelled else, God will be breaking his covenant\promise.

I am in agreement here.

The question is, is tithe\tithing part of this covenant which was BEFORE the law?

Joagbaje has done justice to that question.

To Israel pertaineth the adoption...the covenant, being the first and old covenant which was referred to in Hebrews. The giving of the law, being reference to the law as the national constitution of Israel. God never gave other nations the law he gave to Israel. When Hebrews says:

By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete. What does that mean? It's a past tense, what is already done because the new has come to wipe away the first (old).

You re trying hard with your semantics,but not good enough.Paul says it is in the process of decay and is ready to vanish. He never categorically says it was abolished.We still have national Israel in this present day who still hold on to these covenants and it still works for them. Paul says those promises continue. They anticipate a time when a remnant of Jews will repent and believe. In that day the old covenant will at last be both spiritually and nationally fulfilled by Jesus. “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." As a result, "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26).

Again, you do err my friend. If tithing was not abolished, where does it stay within the law? I come back to my question to you earlier, if you employed in a place with full wages and benefits and your employment terminated, do you still receive salary\wages from the employer that terminated you employment? I hope you know what's buried in this question for you right?

If you agree the law was never terminated in the first instance.We won't be arguing this.The law is already inscribed in the hearts of believers by revelation.Remember?

The Levites own one of the three kinds of tithe and when the Levites and their offices was abolished, does the Levites still continue to receive tithes?

Heb 7:9 answered your question.

As they were abolished, God did not replace them with the ministry gift -pastors, evangelist etc to continue to collect such tithe

. And what gave you the impression that the purpose of the tithes was for only the levites in the first place.

That's why I stand by a consistent truth the New Covenant is different from the Old and not a continuation to the old. If you find any scripture(s) where God replaced the Levites with the ministry gifts, kindly show them to us.

#yawns# Oga..the principles still applies in the NT.

DEUTERONOMY 14:28-29
28 At the end of three years you will bring forth all the tithe of your increase the same year, and you will lay it up within your gates:
29 And the Levite, (because he has no part nor inheritance with you,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.


DEUTERONOMY 26:12-13
12 When you have made an end of tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled;
13 Then you will say before the LORD your God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of my house, and also have given them to the Levite, and to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all your commandments which you have commanded me: I have not transgressed your commandments, neither have I forgotten them:



ACTS 6:1-4
1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples to them, and said, It is not right that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Therefore, brethren, look out from among yourselves seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

Note: No matter whether we look in the Old or New Testament, God has always expected his people to make a provision for widows and orphans, and we see here that this was one of the uses for the tithes. Helping those who are in hardship like orphans is just an expression of love for people who may be suffering through no fault of their own, and so is part of fulfilling the law (Romans 8:4; 13:10), and the command of Jesus, "You shall love your neighbour as yourself." (Matthew 22:39).

1 CORINTHIANS 9:7-11 (Paul)
7 Who goes to war any time at his own expense? who plants a vineyard, and does not eat of the fruit of it? or who feeds a flock, and does not drink of the milk of the flock?
8 Do I say these things as a man? or does not the law say the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, You shall not muzzle the mouth of the ox who treads out the corn. Does God take care for oxen?
10 Or does he say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he who ploughs should plough in hope; and that he who threshes in hope should be a partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown to you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

GALATIANS 6:6 (Paul)
6 Let him who is being taught in the word share with him who teaches in all good things.

You can see for yourself here that Paul did appeal to the Law of Moses for principles of financial giving, which shows the validity of the principles of tithing.He did not categorically condemn it as you would have people fooled in this forum.Tithing was pre-Moses and not rejected by Paul, thus remaining as a guide.

Mr Bidam, tell me you are a pastor and let us know your church so that we can pay our ten percent to you. You can even give us your bank account number.
Ole onijekuje

Christians are under the law Of love. We give God our best, not just money.

Some pastors no longer teach their congregation the most important aspects of the Christian obligations to God namely: love joy, peace, long-suffering, mildness, kindness,....
They prefer their members to use any means to get money so that they can pay large sum of money as tithe.
Have you noticed that rich people have special prayers from pastors and special seats in the church. Most pastors collect money before you can become a deacon or deaconess.
Where is my tooth brush Jare, I am tired of these tithe-hungry pastors.

Bidam: Read Niv to get my point. Only together can we be perfected. My point is One love,one faith,one baptism,There is no difference between a jew and a gentile.It is the same Lord.Even Moses regarded disgrace for Christ of far greater value Don't forget Christ has not even come on the scene.

I am sure you were also told this and have not studied to observe the difference between a Jew and a Gentile.
When Jesus said He came for both the Jew and the Gentile didn't that occur to you?
Using different versions of the Bible1)1(1) (NIV) Matthew 18:17 "If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
(2) (NKJV) Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
(3) (ASV) Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican."
Explaining futher, a Gentile is a person that is not under the Jewish Law and seen as a Sinner/Pagan by the Jews. So they are not the same.

Bidam: DEUTERONOMY 26:12-13
12 When you have made an end of tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled;
13 Then you will say before the LORD your God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of my house, and also have given them to the Levite, and to the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all your commandments which you have commanded me: I have not transgressed your commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

Thank God you quoted this, was that the 3rd Year written there, that was a way tithe was said to have been paid and whoever practise the law of tithe should give that same way. But no to fill your pockets our of your selfish desire you make it a rule to be Every Sunday which is Not True.

Pastor Kun:

Pathological, chronic and unrepentant liar, why are you bent on selling your soul to the devil for a loaf of bread

After now, you'll ask who the dog is again yes?